{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/503", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 503, "subject": "Urth syllabus", "messages": 8, "voices": 5, "first": "1998-04-21T19:12:00+00:00", "last": "1998-04-26T22:52:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.geis.com" }, "date": "1998-04-21T19:12:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth syllabus", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reply: Item #3038987 from URTH at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET00#\n\nDan,\n\nRe: Funes from FICCIONES, right--that's another Borges/BOTNS\ntouchstone (re: Severian's memory). And folks often remember\n\"Circular Ruins\" (if I'm getting that title right) with regard to\n\"The Tale of the Student and His Son\" in particular; then there's the\n\"Library of Babel\" as the Library of Nessus, and Master Ultan as\nBorges himself. (FICCIONES has some kabbalah in it, too, if I\nremember right.)\n\nBorges looms big (\"Borges on the scale of Tolkien\" does seem quite\napt). Charles Dickens looms big. Jack Vance's DYING EARTH (and all\nantecedents) looms big. Robert Graves looms big.\n\nDavid Langford at long last has convinced me that the apparatus of\nthe Matachin Tower is the same as that within Kafka's \"The Penal\nColony.\" But is Sidero also Calvino's THE NON-EXISTANT KNIGHT, or is\nthat finally a stretch too far? A tangent with no payoff? A hunt\nthat brings nothing to the table?\n\nIf we were to arrange a syllabus for a thirteen week introductory\ncourse (assuming participants have already read TBOTNS and URTH one\ntime through already), and that participants could read one or two\nbooks a week, what would the two-dozen or so books be, and in what\norder?\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Parmenter", "address": "dan at lec.com" }, "date": "1998-04-22T12:44:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth syllabus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: m.driussi at genie.geis.com\nBorges looms big (\"Borges on the scale of Tolkien\" does seem quite\napt). Charles Dickens looms big. Jack Vance's DYING EARTH (and all\nantecedents) looms big. Robert Graves looms big." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe I tried to read DYING EARTH at the wrong time in my life, but it\nnever totally grabbed me, though I can easily see its impact on Wolfe.\nHas Wolfe ever mentioned Brian Aldiss' HOTHOUSE (aka THE LONG\nAFTERNOON OF EARTH) or STARSHIP (aka NONSTOP if I'm not mistaken)?\nThe latter especially seems to resonate in the LONG SUN books, it\nbeing one of the great \"generation ship\" stories and featuring a\n\"priest\" in a prominent role. HOTHOUSE lacks any specific comparisons\nother than a future with a dying sun, but there's something of the\nsame melancholy.\n\nWolfe actually made less obvious use of the eiditic memory thing than\nBorges did in \"Funes\". Borges seemed especially interested in the\nidea that his person with a perfect memory had absolutely no ability\nto make abstractions (he assigns names to individual numbers, etc.)\nthough Wolfe did echo the notion of how the memory of a memory can be\ndifferent from the memory itself, which also seems to reosnate a bit\nwith C.S. Lewis who talks at some length about how he learned to\nexperience joy in the abstract by remembering how he had felt\nrecalling a happy memory.\n\nWhich brings up C.S. Lewis as a possible syllabus item. Wolfe is\napparently a fan and has even suggested that the posthumous DARK TOWER\nis a fraud, but one wonders how his engineer's mind must have cringed\nat certain things. Apparently he's also a fan of VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS\n(which I'm reading right now) though, so scientific accuracy may not\nbe the most important thing for him. That's another of my \"easy\"\ndescriptions of Wolfe - the theology of Lewis expressed as hard\nscience fiction. And the only thing I ever read prior to Wolfe that\ngave me that feeling was James Blish's A CASE OF CONSCIENCE which I've\ncome to think of as almost an essential counterpart to Lewis' OUT OF\nTHE SILENT PLANET due to their differing takes on a \"sinless\" race.\n\nD" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-04-22T13:53:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Urth syllabus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Dan Parmenter wrote:\nMaybe I tried to read DYING EARTH at the wrong time in my life, but it\nnever totally grabbed me, though I can easily see its impact on Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As an aside, I've just recently given Vance a try. I adored THE DYING\nEARTH, liked but was lukewarm about EYES OF THE OVERWORLD, and was bored\nby the short-story collection THE AUGMENTED AGENT. Given those reactions,\ncan anyone recommend some other Vance I might enjoy as much as THE DYING\nEARTH? (maybe just e-mail me rather than the whole list)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "though Wolfe did echo the notion of how the memory of a memory can be\ndifferent from the memory itself, which also seems to reosnate a bit\nwith C.S. Lewis who talks at some length about how he learned to\nexperience joy in the abstract by remembering how he had felt\nrecalling a happy memory.\n\nWhich brings up C.S. Lewis as a possible syllabus item. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another theme from Lewis that appears in the LONG SUN books and the\nSOLDIER books and I think in the URTH books too, comes from Perelandra\nwhere Ransom asks where the miracle from God is to counter the infernal\n\"miracle\" of Satan's agent in Perelandra. Ransom realizes that he is,\nhimself, the miracle, the help God has provided.\n\nThis sounds almost exactly like Silk's statement of his comission from the\nOutsider--\"I am to expect no help because I *am* help.\" Latro receives a\nsimilar response when he remarks on the possible danger of the task given\nhim by one of the godesses: \"If a child could have done it, I would not\nhave chosen you.\"\n\nAlthough not expressed quite so explicitly, I think the way in which\nSeverian is tested bears some resemblance to this theme, but I'm not sure\nI can defend that assertion before I do some long-overdue re-reading.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.geis.com" }, "date": "1998-04-22T21:46:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth syllabus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reply: Item #5968886 from URTH at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET02#\n\nDan,\n\nI don't recollect Wolfe mentioning NON-STOP or THE LONG AFTERNOON OF\nEARTH. (I keep meaning to make a big ol' list of every book that\nWolfe ever mentions in passing in his own essays or interviews.\nSomeday, maybe.)\n\nRe: Funes memory as different than Severian's. Right, I'm glad you\nmentioned it because that's what I was thinking myself. But I was\nthinking that the treatment was more like that of Proust rather than\nC.S. Lewis. (Speaking of whom--it is somewhat surprising how very\nsimilar A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS [1920] and OUT OF THE SILENT PLANET\n[1938] are. I'd like to read an essay addressing this in depth.)\n\nI'm not sure how much Wolfe is a fan of A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS (I mean\nthis literally rather than as a euphemism for \"I know he hates it\").\nIn a letter he once told me he thought it was a particularly grim\nProtestant Pilgrim's Progress. Now Harold Bloom loves A VOYAGE TO\nARCTURUS to death, and this fact is somewhat disturbing to alga!\n\nRostrum,\n\nRe: Vance, a reader who likes DE; lukewarm to EO; bored with AA.\nWell you might favor Vance's serious fantasy over his comical fantasy\nand his science fiction. If this is the case, avoid all other Dying\nEarth novels and try the Lyonese trilogy. If you want to give the sf\nanother try, the DEMON PRINCES series is a sort of James Bond as\nninja in space; PLANET OF ADVENTURE series is Vance's Barsoom. If\nyou want sf with a dash more fantasy, go with the award winners: THE\nLAST CASTLE and/or THE DRAGON MASTERS (but I don't recommend you read\nthem back to back, nor do so with SON OF THE TREE/HOUSES OF ISZM; these\npairings are thematically a tad too similar. The better doubles, IMHO,\nwould have been SON OF THE TREE/THE DRAGON MASTERS and THE LAST CASTLE/\nHOUSES OF ISZM). And EMPHYRIO is another surprisingly-like-TBOTNS\nbook.\n\n(There is a ton of Vance fiction out there and just about everybody\nranks 'em differently. I myself like the recent NIGHT LAMP and most\nrecent PORTS OF CALL, fwiw.)\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-04-23T00:38:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Urth syllabus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would say that _The Jungle Books_ belong on this list, and perhaps other\nKipling, although I am not familiar enough with Kipling's other works to\nmake any specific suggestions.\n\nLewis Carroll's _Alice_ books are a possibility, although I think they may\nhave more influence on some of Wolfe's other writing than TBotNS. But there\ndoes seem to be a definite resemblance between Father Inire and Lewis\nCarroll himself.\n\nThis is even more true of Frank L. Baum's _Oz_ books. \"The Eyeflash\nMiracles\" and, to a lesser extent, _Free Live Free_ make plain that Wolfe\nread and was fond of these books, but I am not sure how much influence they\nhad on TNotNS.\n\nOn a semi-related note, I have been pleased to see that many of you Wolfe\nfans share my appreciation of other authors as well.\n\n(I remember reading _Have Spacesuit, Will Travel_ long, long ago with great\npleasure and I recall the scene in the \"fake bedroom\" quite well. Thanks\nfor the reminder, mantis!)\n\nBut, one name I haven't seen mentioned in this list is Mervyn Peake. I\nenjoyed his _Gormenghast_ trilogy a tremendously. Although I don't recall\nthat his writing was especially \"lupine,\" I think there are some\nresemblances in atmosphere and scenery to Wolfe. Also, his short story,\n\"Boy in Darkness\" which is closely related to the _Gormenghast_ trilogy\nseems to use definite Christian symbolism although I have never understood\nwhat Peake means by it.\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.geis.com" }, "date": "1998-04-23T14:09:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Urth syllabus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reply: Item #2062352 from URTH at LISTS.BEST.COM@INTERNET#\n\nWilliam Ansley,\n\nRe: Mervyn Peake, Gene Wolfe has mentioned Peake's trilogy, saying\nwords to the effect that there was a bit of Steerpike to Severian . .\n. hmmm, I can't find that line, but here is one from an interview of\nWolfe by Roert Frazier that ran in \"Thrust No. 19\" (1983):\n\n\"You didn't mention Peake's Gormenghast series, but I have read them\ntoo, and I suspect TBOTNS is more like them than it is like [C.S.] Lewis'\nwork, or Tolkien's\" (p. 8).\n\nRe: Lewis Carroll, right, the consensus seems to be: As Borges is to\nMaster Ultan, so is Lewis Carroll to Father Inire.\n\nRe: Kipling, I would use stories from The Jungle Books in examining\ntales from the brown book--I have done so in the essay on the brown\nbook in NYRSF (Feb. 1993).\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Derek Bell", "address": "dbell at maths.tcd.ie" }, "date": "1998-04-25T17:07:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Urth syllabus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In message <199804221644.JAA02069 at lists1.best.com>, Dan Parmenter writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe actually made less obvious use of the eiditic memory thing than\nBorges did in \"Funes\". Borges seemed especially interested in the\nidea that his person with a perfect memory had absolutely no ability\nto make abstractions (he assigns names to individual numbers, etc.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI think the subject of A.R. Lurias' _Mind of a Mnemonist_ had\na simliar experience, though the example given was that of the\nhow he experience courthouses. (He was a journalist covering cases\nand he had trouble thinking of a general courthouse though he easily\nmemorised individual courthouse layouts.)\n\n\tI'll suggest _Mind of a Mnemonist_ as a non-fiction book to\nadd to the hypothetical syllabus. I wouldn't be surprised if someone\nnominates a book by Oliver Sacks!\n\n\tDerek" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1998-04-26T22:52:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Urth syllabus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have just finished rereading PEACE for the fifth or sixth time. I think\nit will always be my favorite Wolfe novel; perhaps only because it was the\nfirst of his I read. I suggest that PEACE be made part of the Urth\nsyllabus. It is more accessible than TBotNS, because of its\nsemi-autobiographical nature it provides something of an insight into Wolfe\nhimself and it seems to prefigure so many of the ideas that occur in TBotNS\n(as well as many of Wolfe's other works) even if only in embryonic form.\n\nFor example, the following two passages are (to me at least) very evocative\nof TBotNS.\n\n\"...that this planet of America, turning round upon itself, stands only at\nthe outside, only at the periphery, only at the edges, of an infinite\ngalaxy, dizzily circling. And the stars that seem to ride our winds cause\nthem. Sometimes I think to see huge faces bending between those stars to\nlook through my two windows, faces golden and tenuous, touched with pity\nand wonder...\"\n\nPEACE, p. 7, paragraph 2. Orb edition\n\n\"... men of stone stalking through the long grass like statues walking,\nlike telamones on their way to assist Atlas, dead men become their own\ngrave markers...\"\n\nPEACE, p. 156, paragraph 3. Orb edition\n\nBy the way, I just bought the Orb large format paperback edition of PEACE\nbecause I can't find my old mass-market paperback copy. I read my old copy\nmany times, perhaps even more than I claim above. And I am certain that\nthere are some changes in the text between what I recall from my old copy\nand the Orb edition. These are very minor changes that may well be typo\ncorrections, if they are real. Does anyone one know if the Orb edition was\nedited?\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] } ] }