{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5030", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5030, "subject": "Off-topic Question", "messages": 11, "voices": 7, "first": "2008-05-17T20:20:49+00:00", "last": "2008-05-28T03:19:47+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<44fb53d10805171320p7e0741d7ld6737cc53074cab6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-17T20:20:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Off-topic Question", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seeing as we've been quite off-topic lately, I figured another\nmostly-Wolfe-unrelated thread wouldn't hurt. As I mentioned in an earlier\nthread, I'm trying to decide what to do for a senior thesis. I think I've\ndecided on writing about Christianity and influence on detective fiction -\nI've got a list of writers I think are relevant, but if anyone could suggest\nfurther writers, I'd be grateful. The Urth list seems pretty well-read after\nall...\n\nMy list, as it stands now:\n\n\"Irreligious\" Writers\nArthur Conan Doyle (In the early stories Holmes has a dislike for religion,\nthough Doyle believed in some form of afterlife)\nUmberto Eco (Lapsed Catholic, murder in a monastery)\n\nReligious Writers\nMargery Allingham\nP.D. James\nG.K. Chesterton\nRonald Knox (Priest and friend of Evelyn Waugh)\nDorothy L. Sayers\nEllis Peters (Not sure)\n\nI may be forgetting some here, and my knowledge of crime fiction is far from\nextensive\n\nAlso - any Wolfe stories that would fit in this framework? I know he has a\nfew detective stories, plus of course he draws on mystery a lot in The Book\nof the Long Sun. Tim Powers might be relevant too - he seems to go in for a\nmystery-like setting sometimes.\n\nThanks a lot.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1DD433DF-02A0-45F5-B8D8-F473B0C443CF@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-05-17T20:39:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Off-topic Question", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10805171320p7e0741d7ld6737cc53074cab6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 17, 2008, at 3:20 PM, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nArthur Conan Doyle (In the early stories Holmes has a dislike for \nreligion, though Doyle believed in some form of afterlife)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You probably want to look at Doyle's shift to spiritualism following \nthe death of his son.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10805171443j62cc0aa7q673bee15311753d0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-17T21:43:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Off-topic Question", "in_reply_to": "<1DD433DF-02A0-45F5-B8D8-F473B0C443CF@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You probably want to look at Doyle's shift to spiritualism following the\ndeath of his son.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks. I know a bit about Doyle's spiritualism, but not terribly much. I\nknow it shows up in some of his later work, like the Prof. Challenger\nstories. But you're right - I need to investigate further.\n\nNew addition to the \"Irreligious\" list: Mark Twain? Some detective-ish\nstories, and some of the great anti-religion quips.\n\nIn a similar vein - Did Ambrose Bierce ever write mysteries? I know he\nstarred in some by the recently-deceased Oakley Hall, but did he ever\nactually *write* any?\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<482f9eaf.9d.4072.4700@mail.rochester.edu>", "from": { "name": "dcooperv", "address": "dcooperv at mail.rochester.edu" }, "date": "2008-05-18T03:12:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Off-topic Question", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10805171443j62cc0aa7q673bee15311753d0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You could probably put Hammett and Chandler in there, possibly on the\nirreligious side. I say this only because (IMO) it's near-impossible to have an\nintelligent discussion of the genre without acknowledging these two, given the\nsignificance of their contributions. I always saw them as existentialist more\nthan anything else really. Of course, existentialism does not preclude\nreligiosity by any means (and nothing bugs me like a false dichotomy!). Read\nDostoeyevsky and Martin Buber for good examples of this.\nCan you give us a more specific idea of your thesis? If nothing else, this could\nspark some enlightening conversation.\n\n-Dan Vince\n\nPS: Didn't Doyle have Holmes study Theravada Buddhism at some point? You might\nwant to do some research into that." } ] }, { "message_id": "<022DED5E-76A4-4320-981C-B17561729755@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-05-18T03:36:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Off-topic Question", "in_reply_to": "<482f9eaf.9d.4072.4700@mail.rochester.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 17, 2008, at 10:12 PM, dcooperv wrote:\nYou could probably put Hammett and Chandler in there, possibly on the\nirreligious side. I say this only because (IMO) it's near-impossible \nto have an\nintelligent discussion of the genre without acknowledging these two, \ngiven the\nsignificance of their contributions. I always saw them as \nexistentialist more\nthan anything else really. Of course, existentialism does not preclude\nreligiosity by any means (and nothing bugs me like a false \ndichotomy!). Read\nDostoeyevsky and Martin Buber for good examples of this.\nCan you give us a more specific idea of your thesis? If nothing \nelse, this could\nspark some enlightening conversation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And, man, Chandler is underrated.\n\nThat's some complex and delicious stuff there. Marlowe is *so* much \nsmarter and better-educated than he lets on; one of my favorite not- \nquite-reliable narrators (there's the Wolfean connection). As far as \nI'm concerned, _The Big Sleep_ is one of the great books of the 20th \nCentury. Chandler is--hey, another Wolfean connection--a genre writer \nwho was *spectacularly* good, not just compared to the rest of the \ngenre, but period.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10805180722r5209973cob9ef1233a27712ea@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-18T14:22:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Off-topic Question", "in_reply_to": "<022DED5E-76A4-4320-981C-B17561729755@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 4:36 AM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn May 17, 2008, at 10:12 PM, dcooperv wrote:\n\n You could probably put Hammett and Chandler in there, possibly on the\nirreligious side. I say this only because (IMO) it's near-impossible to\nhave an\nintelligent discussion of the genre without acknowledging these two, given\nthe\nsignificance of their contributions. I always saw them as existentialist\nmore\nthan anything else really. Of course, existentialism does not preclude\nreligiosity by any means (and nothing bugs me like a false dichotomy!)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Read\nDostoeyevsky and Martin Buber for good examples of this.\nCan you give us a more specific idea of your thesis? If nothing else, this\ncould\nspark some enlightening conversation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And, man, Chandler is underrated.\n\nThat's some complex and delicious stuff there. Marlowe is *so* much\nsmarter and better-educated than he lets on; one of my favorite\nnot-quite-reliable narrators (there's the Wolfean connection). As far as\nI'm concerned, _The Big Sleep_ is one of the great books of the 20th\nCentury. Chandler is--hey, another Wolfean connection--a genre writer who\nwas *spectacularly* good, not just compared to the rest of the genre, but\nperiod.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed that Marlowe is smarter than he pretends to be. He isn't phased when\nsomeone quotes Christopher Marlowe's Faust at him in The Long Goodbye for\nexample.\n\nAs for \"a more specific version of my thesis,\" I'm still in the preparation\nphase, so I don't have too much yet. At the moment I'm just trying to pin\ndown a good reading list - I expect I'll be reading lots of this stuff over\nthe summer.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080519122927.CF9AB2003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-05-19T12:29:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Off-topic Question", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10805180722r5209973cob9ef1233a27712ea@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 18 May 2008 13:36:32 +1000 Adam Thornton \nwrote:\nOn May 17, 2008, at 10:12 PM, dcooperv wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And, man, Chandler is underrated.\n\nThat's some complex and delicious stuff there. Marlowe is *so* \nmuch \nsmarter and better-educated than he lets on; one of my favorite \nnot- \nquite-reliable narrators (there's the Wolfean connection). As far " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "as \nI'm concerned, _The Big Sleep_ is one of the great books of the \n20th \nCentury. Chandler is--hey, another Wolfean connection--a genre \nwriter \nwho was *spectacularly* good, not just compared to the rest of the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "genre, but period.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But don't downplay Hammett. On the weekends & Wednesdays I'm sure \nhe was a better writer than Chandler. Of all the stories written by \neither of them, I think \"The Glass Key\" is the best, as well as the \nmost Wolfean. All showing, no telling, and the biggest puzzle is \ntrying to work out the protagonist's interior state, just from his \nactions. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-21T12:08:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Off-topic Question", "in_reply_to": "<20080519122927.CF9AB2003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Sun, 18 May 2008 13:36:32 +1000 Adam Thornton > wrote:> >On May 17, 2008, at 10:12 PM, dcooperv wrote:> >>> >And, man, Chandler is underrated.> >> >That's some complex and delicious stuff there. Marlowe is *so* > >much > >smarter and better-educated than he lets on; one of my favorite > >not- > >quite-reliable narrators (there's the Wolfean connection). As far > > >as > >I'm concerned, _The Big Sleep_ is one of the great books of the > >20th > >Century. Chandler is--hey, another Wolfean connection--a genre > >writer > >who was *spectacularly* good, not just compared to the rest of the > > > > >genre, but period.> >> >Adam> > But don't downplay Hammett. On the weekends & Wednesdays I'm sure > he was a better writer than Chandler. Of all the stories written by > either of them, I think \"The Glass Key\" is the best, as well as the > most Wolfean. All showing, no telling, and the biggest puzzle is > trying to work out the protagonist's interior state, just from his > actions. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMy mind has always connected Dash Hammett and Roger Zelazny. It took me awhile to figure out why, if I have. Rich is the milieu? They both make, on immediately finishing something of theirs, reading another writer difficult because of how awkward the language feels and they both had such an incredible ability to add detail to a scene without it getting in the way. Anyone else the group can think of like that?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-27T13:43:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Off-topic Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A story by Wolfe not yet mentioned that fits your criteria beautifully is\n'The Detective of Dreams'. Contains both a detective and a religious theme;\nreligion is central to the story as well. Also a wonderful story to just\nread and enjoy. Sorry if this was already mentioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Bob Miller wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sun, 18 May 2008 13:36:32 +1000 Adam Thornton \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On May 17, 2008, at 10:12 PM, dcooperv wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And, man, Chandler is underrated.\n\nThat's some complex and delicious stuff there. Marlowe is *so*\nmuch\nsmarter and better-educated than he lets on; one of my favorite\nnot-\nquite-reliable narrators (there's the Wolfean connection). As far" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "as\nI'm concerned, _The Big Sleep_ is one of the great books of the\n20th\nCentury. Chandler is--hey, another Wolfean connection--a genre\nwriter\nwho was *spectacularly* good, not just compared to the rest of the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "genre, but period.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But don't downplay Hammett. On the weekends & Wednesdays I'm sure\nhe was a better writer than Chandler. Of all the stories written by\neither of them, I think \"The Glass Key\" is the best, as well as the\nmost Wolfean. All showing, no telling, and the biggest puzzle is\ntrying to work out the protagonist's interior state, just from his\nactions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My mind has always connected Dash Hammett and Roger Zelazny. It took me\nawhile to figure out why, if I have. Rich is the milieu? They both make,\non immediately finishing something of theirs, reading another writer\ndifficult because of how awkward the language feels and they both had such\nan incredible ability to add detail to a scene without it getting in the\nway. Anyone else the group can think of like that?\n\n------------------------------\nKeep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. Help protect\nyour kids.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bryan Alexander", "address": "bryan.alexander at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-28T01:25:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Off-topic Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the writers for Wolfe readers: I'm reading another Michael Cisco book,\nand am amazed. This one is *The Divinity Student*. Superb stuff, like Book\nof the New Sun written in Eastern Europe." } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10805272019g19e691adgd81817fbfbc76139@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-28T03:19:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Off-topic Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've sold me on it. I just added two of his books to my Wish List on\nAmazon, and I'll buy them when I get my next paycheck. Judging from your\nrave and what I've read on Amazon, this sounds like just my sort of thing.\nI'm looking forward to it.\n\n-Matt" } ] } ] }