Subject: (urth) Off-topic Question

From: Matthew Keeley <matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 20:20:49 +0000

Seeing as we've been quite off-topic lately, I figured another
mostly-Wolfe-unrelated thread wouldn't hurt. As I mentioned in an earlier
thread, I'm trying to decide what to do for a senior thesis. I think I've
decided on writing about Christianity and influence on detective fiction -
I've got a list of writers I think are relevant, but if anyone could suggest
further writers, I'd be grateful. The Urth list seems pretty well-read after
all...

My list, as it stands now:

"Irreligious" Writers
Arthur Conan Doyle (In the early stories Holmes has a dislike for religion,
though Doyle believed in some form of afterlife)
Umberto Eco (Lapsed Catholic, murder in a monastery)

Religious Writers
Margery Allingham
P.D. James
G.K. Chesterton
Ronald Knox (Priest and friend of Evelyn Waugh)
Dorothy L. Sayers
Ellis Peters (Not sure)

I may be forgetting some here, and my knowledge of crime fiction is far from
extensive

Also - any Wolfe stories that would fit in this framework? I know he has a
few detective stories, plus of course he draws on mystery a lot in The Book
of the Long Sun. Tim Powers might be relevant too - he seems to go in for a
mystery-like setting sometimes.

Thanks a lot.

-Matt
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From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 20:39:12 +0000

On May 17, 2008, at 3:20 PM, Matthew Keeley wrote:

> Arthur Conan Doyle (In the early stories Holmes has a dislike for  
> religion, though Doyle believed in some form of afterlife)

You probably want to look at Doyle's shift to spiritualism following  
the death of his son.

Adam

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From: Matthew Keeley <matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 21:43:22 +0000

> You probably want to look at Doyle's shift to spiritualism following the
> death of his son.
>
> Adam
>

Thanks. I know a bit about Doyle's spiritualism, but not terribly much. I
know it shows up in some of his later work, like the Prof. Challenger
stories. But you're right - I need to investigate further.

New addition to the "Irreligious" list: Mark Twain? Some detective-ish
stories, and some of the great anti-religion quips.

In a similar vein - Did Ambrose Bierce ever write mysteries? I know he
starred in some by the recently-deceased Oakley Hall, but did he ever
actually *write* any?

-Matt
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From: dcooperv <dcooperv at mail.rochester.edu>
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 03:12:47 +0000

You could probably put Hammett and Chandler in there, possibly on the
irreligious side. I say this only because (IMO) it's near-impossible to have an
intelligent discussion of the genre without acknowledging these two, given the
significance of their contributions. I always saw them as existentialist more
than anything else really. Of course, existentialism does not preclude
religiosity by any means (and nothing bugs me like a false dichotomy!). Read
Dostoeyevsky and Martin Buber for good examples of this.
Can you give us a more specific idea of your thesis? If nothing else, this could
spark some enlightening conversation.

-Dan Vince

PS: Didn't Doyle have Holmes study Theravada Buddhism at some point? You might
want to do some research into that.

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From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 03:36:32 +0000

> spark some enlightening conversation.

And, man, Chandler is underrated.

That's some complex and delicious stuff there.  Marlowe is *so* much  
smarter and better-educated than he lets on; one of my favorite not- 
quite-reliable narrators (there's the Wolfean connection).  As far as  
I'm concerned, _The Big Sleep_ is one of the great books of the 20th  
Century.  Chandler is--hey, another Wolfean connection--a genre writer  
who was *spectacularly* good, not just compared to the rest of the  
genre, but period.

Adam

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From: Matthew Keeley <matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 14:22:22 +0000

On Sun, May 18, 2008 at 4:36 AM, Adam Thornton <adam at io.com> wrote:

> smarter and better-educated than he lets on; one of my favorite
> not-quite-reliable narrators (there's the Wolfean connection).  As far as
> Century.  Chandler is--hey, another Wolfean connection--a genre writer who
> was *spectacularly* good, not just compared to the rest of the genre, but
> period.
>
> Adam
>

Agreed that Marlowe is smarter than he pretends to be. He isn't phased when
someone quotes Christopher Marlowe's Faust at him in The Long Goodbye for
example.

As for "a more specific version of my thesis," I'm still in the preparation
phase, so I don't have too much yet. At the moment I'm just trying to pin
down a good reading list - I expect I'll be reading lots of this stuff over
the summer.

-Matt
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From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 12:29:27 +0000

On Sun, 18 May 2008 13:36:32 +1000 Adam Thornton <adam at io.com> 
wrote:
>not- 
>quite-reliable narrators (there's the Wolfean connection).  As far 

>as  

>Adam

But don't downplay Hammett. On the weekends & Wednesdays I'm sure 
he was a better writer than Chandler. Of all the stories written by 
either of them, I think "The Glass Key" is the best, as well as the 
most Wolfean. All showing, no telling, and the biggest puzzle is 
trying to work out the protagonist's interior state, just from his 
actions.

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From: Bob Miller <bob_bageera at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 May 2008 12:08:09 +0000

> > > On Sun, 18 May 2008 13:36:32 +1000 Adam Thornton <adam at io.com> > wrote:> >On May 17, 2008, at 10:12 PM, dcooperv wrote:> >>> >And, man, Chandler is underrated.> >> >That's some complex and delicious stuff there. Marlowe is *so* > >much > >smarter and better-educated than he lets on; one of my favorite > >not- > >quite-reliable narrators (there's the Wolfean connection). As far > > >as > >I'm concerned, _The Big Sleep_ is one of the great books of the > >20th > >Century. Chandler is--hey, another Wolfean connection--a genre > >writer > >who was *spectacularly* good, not just compared to the rest of the > > > > >genre, but period.> >> >Adam> > But don't downplay Hammett. On the weekends & Wednesdays I'm sure > he was a better writer than Chandler. Of all the stories written by > either of them, I think "The Glass Key" is the best, as well as the > most Wolfean. All showing, no telling, and the biggest puzzle is > trying to work out the protagonist's interior state, just from his > actions. 
 
My mind has always connected Dash Hammett and Roger Zelazny.  It took me awhile to figure out why, if I have.  Rich is the milieu?  They both make, on immediately finishing something of theirs, reading another writer difficult because of how awkward the language feels and they both had such an incredible ability to add detail to a scene without it getting in the way.  Anyone else the group can think of like that?
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From: aaron <aaronsingleton at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 13:43:44 +0000

A story by Wolfe not yet mentioned that fits your criteria beautifully is
'The Detective of Dreams'.  Contains both a detective and a religious theme;
religion is central to the story as well.  Also a wonderful story to just
read and enjoy.  Sorry if this was already mentioned.

On Wed, May 21, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Bob Miller <bob_bageera at hotmail.com> wrote:

> My mind has always connected Dash Hammett and Roger Zelazny.  It took me
> awhile to figure out why, if I have.  Rich is the milieu?  They both make,
> on immediately finishing something of theirs, reading another writer
> difficult because of how awkward the language feels and they both had such
> an incredible ability to add detail to a scene without it getting in the
> way.  Anyone else the group can think of like that?
>
> ------------------------------
> Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. Help protect
> your kids.<http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008>
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From: Bryan Alexander <bryan.alexander at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 01:25:53 +0000

On the writers for Wolfe readers: I'm reading another Michael Cisco book,
and am amazed.  This one is *The Divinity Student*.  Superb stuff, like Book
of the New Sun written in Eastern Europe.
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From: Matthew Keeley <matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 03:19:47 +0000

You've sold me on it. I just added two of his books to my Wish List on
Amazon, and I'll buy them when I get my next paycheck. Judging from your
rave and what I've read on Amazon, this sounds like just my sort of thing.
I'm looking forward to it.

-Matt
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