{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5032",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 5032,
    "subject": "House of Ancestors",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "2008-05-25T07:02:33+00:00",
    "last": "2008-05-26T08:38:40+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<81c420fa0805250002i439ad37ajf423a521c8a2482e@mail.gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Greg Bates",
        "address": "tedkennedyrolls at gmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-05-25T07:02:33+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) House of Ancestors",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I've been reading through the Endangered Species short story collection\n(about halfway through so far and loving it), and I just tripped over this\nstory. The other couple of stories i've read that I wanted some\nclarification on the \"twist\" from, like \"Kevin Malone\", have been discussed\npretty extensively, but this one hasn't gotten any mentions. Couple things\ni'm trying to figure out:\n\n1) Is the \"Joe\" in the last paragraph of the story actually Joe, or a robot\ncreated by the Thing? I get this impression from the last sentence of the\nstory in which Joe remembers that his girlfriend is pregnant. Earlier on,\nwe're told that anyone who enters the Thing gets \"a segment\" of their\ngenetic code read and an extrapolated ancestor as their guide created from\nthe DNA sample. So at first, I figured \"Joe\" is a creation of his unborn\nchild's DNA created by the Thing, except that your clone mimics you at the\ntime of your conception, ergo Joe wouldn't be talking about getting the nail\nremoved from his heart. So now i'm confused again. What's the significance\nof having a protagonist with a nail in his chest anyway? It's clear Wolfe\nnever adds a detail for no reason.\n\n2) What's the significance of the paragraph in italics at the beginning? It\ndescribes two people looking through the fair's telescope (presumably at the\ntop globe of the Thing where the climax of the story takes place), one right\nbefore and one right after the climax. However, isn't the fair supposed to\nbe deserted, none of the exhibits open? Are the woman and the man characters\nfrom the party Joe is with? What the hell does it mean?\n\nOther than that, i'm loving Endangered Species, especially the New Sun\nuniverse stories, \"Thag\" and \"Ming the Merciless\".\n\n\nGreg"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<483A7710.1070509@gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Dave Tallman",
        "address": "davetallman at msn.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-05-26T08:38:40+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) House of Ancestors",
      "in_reply_to": "<81c420fa0805250002i439ad37ajf423a521c8a2482e@mail.gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Greg Bates wrote:\n1) Is the \"Joe\" in the last paragraph of the story actually Joe, or a robot\ncreated by the Thing? I get this impression from the last sentence of the\nstory in which Joe remembers that his girlfriend is pregnant. Earlier on,\nwe're told that anyone who enters the Thing gets \"a segment\" of their\ngenetic code read and an extrapolated ancestor as their guide created from\nthe DNA sample. So at first, I figured \"Joe\" is a creation of his unborn\nchild's DNA created by the Thing, except that your clone mimics you at the\ntime of your conception, ergo Joe wouldn't be talking about getting the nail\nremoved from his heart. "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I think the Joe at the end is a real person. At the point they find him \nsitting outside, Bonnie had not yet entered the Thing. Her unborn child \nwas not involved, except to give him assurance of continuation. Even if \nhe dies in the operation he will live on through his child."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "So now i'm confused again. What's the significance\nof having a protagonist with a nail in his chest anyway? It's clear Wolfe\nnever adds a detail for no reason.\n  "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Joe wouldn't get an operation because he had a subconscious death-wish. \nHe faced and defeated that part of himself. Symbolically, the nail in \nthe heart reminds me of images the Sacred Heart of Mary. His female \nancestors partake of his suffering and are a crucial factor in helping him."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "2) What's the significance of the paragraph in italics at the beginning? It\ndescribes two people looking through the fair's telescope (presumably at the\ntop globe of the Thing where the climax of the story takes place), one right\nbefore and one right after the climax. However, isn't the fair supposed to\nbe deserted, none of the exhibits open? Are the woman and the man characters\nfrom the party Joe is with? What the hell does it mean?\n  "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "These people are looking up at the building from a long way off. I \npicture them as tourists looking through the pay telescopes at the top \nof the Empire State Building.\n\n\"For a few seconds a figure stood at one of those holes; then another \nwho struggled with him; then both were gone.\"\n\nWithout this line, one might think that everything that happened after \nJoe went into the Thing took place only in his mind. In fact, what seems \nto have happened is a form of timeless information feedback, almost time \ntravel.\n\n\"He could sense her beside him in the blackness; and unexpectedly, \noverwhelmingly, the certainty came to him that they had waited together \nlike this before, and that the sensation he now felt was familiar \nthrough countless repetitions.\"\n\nSomehow, what his ancestor robots learn is fed back to him across time. \nJoe contains his ancestors, and these robot copies somehow link to their \nsouls. What Joe's \"mother\" knows was transmitted to him at conception, \ntherefore he knows it too. When he gives up his death-wish, that too is \ntransmitted back. He now chooses to wait at the entrance instead of \ngoing in. The others would have said something if they found him \nbloodied. All that happened in the Thing has been undone except for the \ninternal change that leads him to ask for the operation. (I'm reminded \nof \"Free Live Free\" -- have you read this?)\n\nI'm still trying to suspend disbelief about the scale of the Thing. My \nback-of-the-envelope calculations say it would be  taller than the orbit \nof the moon. There are over 200 million base pairs in a typical DNA \nmolecule which is part of the human genome. Every atom is represented. \nWolfe is an engineer, so I'll assume he crunched the numbers better than \nI did for the height. But how much time would it take to prepare \npresentations for all those rooms? How could a world's fair visitor have \nthe time to see them all?"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}