{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5033", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5033, "subject": "Cabin on the Coast question", "messages": 12, "voices": 4, "first": "2008-05-26T22:53:54+00:00", "last": "2008-06-05T05:12:19+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<483B3F82.1040802@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-05-26T22:53:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cabin on the Coast question", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was rereading some stories in \"Endangered Species\" and I had a \nquestion: what is Tim wearing in the final scene?\n\nThere are two possible answers:\n1) Swimming trunks.\nHe swam out to the black freighter in his trunks, so it would make sense \nfor him to return in them, if they still fit...\n\n2) Nothing.\nIf things will \"stand so again\" as on the day Lissy vanished, Tim \nstarted that day naked in bed.\n\nIn either case, especially the latter, Lissy's reaction to \"Big Tim\" is \ndisturbing. She doesn't scream at a naked or almost-naked man barging in \non her. She talks to him casually. Are we to infer that she has also \nbeen the lover of \"Big Tim?\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c8c09a$30115d00$55d24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-05-28T08:09:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cabin on the Coast question", "in_reply_to": "<483B3F82.1040802@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nI was rereading some stories in \"Endangered Species\" and I had a\nquestion: what is Tim wearing in the final scene?\n\nThere are two possible answers:\n1) Swimming trunks.\nHe swam out to the black freighter in his trunks, so it would make sense\nfor him to return in them, if they still fit...\n\n2) Nothing.\nIf things will \"stand so again\" as on the day Lissy vanished, Tim\nstarted that day naked in bed.\n\nIn either case, especially the latter, Lissy's reaction to \"Big Tim\" is\ndisturbing. She doesn't scream at a naked or almost-naked man barging in\non her. She talks to him casually. Are we to infer that she has also\nbeen the lover of \"Big Tim?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. She had never met Tim's father; she had seen him only in pictures. In\nthe pictures, he was very gaunt. Though the fairy King had promised things\nwould be just as they were for Lissy \"and all the country round\" on the\nmorning she disappeared, that didn't apply equally for Tim. The King had\npromised that Tim would remember his time in the otherworld, but that didn't\nturn out to be true. Neither did the King mention that Tim would be at least\ntwenty years older when he was released from service, but that is what\nhappened. Fairies lie and otherwise deceive.\n\nWhen Tim returned to the cabin and opened the door, Lissy saw an older,\nthinner man who looked just like the man in the pictures she had seen. Tim\nhad earlier told her that he would come to look just like his father,\nbecause he then looked just as his father had looked when his father was the\nsame age. She mistook Tim for his father. I don't think she spoke to him\n\"casually\". She was trying to make the best of a compromising situation by\nblurting out to \"Big Tim\" that she and his \"son\" were planning to get\nmarried.\n\nAfter all, regardless of whatever the man she thought was \"Big Tim\" was\nwearing, or not wearing, she was herself conspicuously naked in Big Tim's\nbed. She was in no position to say anything about the other's wardrobe, or\nlack thereof.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<483D4B64.5010904@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-05-28T12:09:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cabin on the Coast Question", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c8c09a$30115d00$55d24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nNo. She had never met Tim's father; she had seen him only in pictures. In\nthe pictures, he was very gaunt. Though the fairy King had promised things\nwould be just as they were for Lissy \"and all the country round\" on the\nmorning she disappeared, that didn't apply equally for Tim. The King had\npromised that Tim would remember his time in the otherworld, but that didn't\nturn out to be true. Neither did the King mention that Tim would be at least\ntwenty years older when he was released from service, but that is what\nhappened. Fairies lie and otherwise deceive.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you are right. I prefer that ending, anyway. It would lessen the \ntragedy if Tim found out that Lissy was lying about never having met his \nfather. The fairy King didn't really lie, because Tim does retain some \nmemories of his years of service (he plans to tell Lissy about them but \npretend they are just stories). Having those memories means he has an \nolder brain, and with that goes an older body. The King just didn't \nspell out the implications." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Tim returned to the cabin and opened the door, Lissy saw an older,\nthinner man who looked just like the man in the pictures she had seen. Tim\nhad earlier told her that he would come to look just like his father,\nbecause he then looked just as his father had looked when his father was the\nsame age. She mistook Tim for his father. I don't think she spoke to him\n\"casually\". She was trying to make the best of a compromising situation by\nblurting out to \"Big Tim\" that she and his \"son\" were planning to get\nmarried.\n\nAfter all, regardless of whatever the man she thought was \"Big Tim\" was\nwearing, or not wearing, she was herself conspicuously naked in Big Tim's\nbed. She was in no position to say anything about the other's wardrobe, or\nlack thereof.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would have thought she'd be a little more formal, but it does make \nsense for her to blurt out things when she is caught in a compromising \nsituation. She first tries a friendly approach. Then, mistaking his look \nof horror for concern about scandal, she tells him that she and Tim will \nbe married.\n\nWhat will Tim do next? If he tries to explain she'll never believe him. \nThe best thing to spare her feelings would be to pretend to be his \nfather and say something like \"Get out! I sent him away and you'll never \nsee him again.\" He could follow that up with a letter to get her to move \non. Life isn't going to be easy for Tim. He's lost not only his love but \nhis identity." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8c0ee$a1534ec0$75d34a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-05-28T18:14:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cabin on the Coast Question", "in_reply_to": "<483D4B64.5010904@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nWhat will Tim do next? If he tries to explain she'll never believe him.\nThe best thing to spare her feelings would be to pretend to be his\nfather and say something like \"Get out! I sent him away and you'll never\nsee him again.\" He could follow that up with a letter to get her to move\non. Life isn't going to be easy for Tim. He's lost not only his love but\nhis identity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should probably just leave this alone, but there is one nagging detail\nthat I can't explain or ignore. It's that damn \"already damp and a trifle\nsandy\" towel Tim used after he showered upon returning from his\nearly-morning swim on the morning *before* Lissy disappeared, on the second\npage of the story. Who had used the towel before Tim?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40805281244p15c4bf12l393322e29b4f5471@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-05-28T19:44:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cabin on the Coast Question", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8c0ee$a1534ec0$75d34a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI should probably just leave this alone, but there is one nagging detail\nthat I can't explain or ignore.\nIt's that damn \"already damp and a trifle sandy\" towel Tim used after he\nshowered upon returning\nfrom his early-morning swim on the morning *before* Lissy disappeared, on\nthe second\npage of the story. Who had used the towel before Tim?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good clue-spotting. All right, let's pursue this. There are some other\ninteresting details:\n\n1) Lissy was awake and sitting up when Tim entered on the day of the damp\ntowel.\n\n2) There are five wooden steps leading up to the beach cottage, and they\ncreak.\n\n3) The cottage has two windows, opposite each other (early morning light\nfrom one enters the other).\n\n4) Tim and Lissy apparently went straight to bed the night before without a\nswim. Lissy's clothes were kicked under the bed. No bags were unpacked from\nthe car.\n\n5) Lissy didn't swim herself that morning. Her swimsuit was still in the\ncar.\n\nIt looks like Lissy received another visitor while Tim was swimming. That\nperson came from the sea and dried off, leaving the towel damp and sandy. He\ncould have left by the back window when he heard the creaking steps.\n\nThat visitor was not Big Tim, because Lissy says \"You did come\" at the end.\n\nWho else could it be? Why not Daniel O'Donoghue himself? He can take any\nform and might well have seduced Lissy, a preliminary move before her\nabduction. He's not immune to the urge if one of his forms is a satyr. The\nreference to \"unwillin' girls\" is deceptive.\n\nDaniel of Domdaniel has a motive for what he did to Tim beyond mere fey\ntrickiness. He's getting his rival out of the way." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-05-28T21:32:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cabin on the Coast Question", "in_reply_to": "<483D4B64.5010904@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:09 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nThe fairy King didn't really lie, because Tim does retain some\nmemories of his years of service (he plans to tell Lissy about them but\npretend they are just stories). Having those memories means he has an older\nbrain, and with that goes an older body. The King just didn't spell out the\nimplications." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Wolfe (and/or the King) is especially tricky because at first Tim\nis told \"You'll serve for 100 years and then return\" which makes it\nseem obvious that Tim would not age or would be magically made young\nagain. So then when the term is lowered to 25 years, we have the same\nexpectation.\n\nPerhaps Tim would have been better off if he'd taken the original\noffer of 100 years?\n\nAlso, note the similar situation in Pirate Freedom.\n\n-- Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8c15c$f92d32a0$dcd14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-05-29T07:23:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cabin on the Coast Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\n1) Lissy was awake and sitting up when Tim entered on the day of the damp\ntowel.\n\n2) There are five wooden steps leading up to the beach cottage, and they\ncreak.\n\n3) The cottage has two windows, opposite each other (early morning light\nfrom one enters the other).\n\n4) Tim and Lissy apparently went straight to bed the night before without a\nswim. Lissy's clothes were kicked under the bed. No bags were unpacked from\nthe car.\n\n5) Lissy didn't swim herself that morning. Her swimsuit was still in the\ncar.\n\nIt looks like Lissy received another visitor while Tim was swimming. That\nperson came from the sea and dried off, leaving the towel damp and sandy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "could have left by the back window when he heard the creaking steps.\n\nThat visitor was not Big Tim, because Lissy says \"You did come\" at the end.\n\nWho else could it be? Why not Daniel O'Donoghue himself? He can take any\nform and might well have seduced Lissy, a preliminary move before her\nabduction. He's not immune to the urge if one of his forms is a satyr. The\nreference to \"unwillin' girls\" is deceptive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's possible, but there is a problem with the timeline. When the King\nsaid that things would be as they were before Lissy was taken, he didn't\nspecify exactly how long before she was taken. Was it a minute? An hour? A\nday? And was the time the same for her as it was for Tim?\n\nLissy disappeared on their second morning at the cabin. The night before\nthat, they had built a driftwood fire on the beach and emptied a bottle of\nwine. When Tim came back to the real world from the otherworld, the sun was\njust coming up. On the beach, he saw the tide-washed remnants of that fire\nand the empty wine bottle. So he came back to reality on the second morning\nthey had been at the cabin, to find Lissy naked but safe in bed, and Tim\nhimself had aged quite a bit.\n\nTim was told that Lissy would remember nothing of her abduction, because\nthere would be nothing to remember; the abduction would never have happened,\njust as Tim would never have spoken to the cop. Tim lost a complete\ntwenty-four hours, from the morning she disappeared to the morning he swam\nout to look for her. Was time turned back forty-eight hours for Lissy, to\nthe first morning at the cabin?\n\nIf that is so, then there is no reason she should not remember her\nhypothetical fairy lover, because that would have happened a full day before\nher abduction. Will she go down to the water the next morning again to seek\nhim? If the King had the power to turn back the clock for Lissy, why not\nturn it back to before his alleged seduction of her and avoid the problem?\nIn which case he would have no need to leave a used towel behind.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<483E6D99.5070003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-05-29T08:47:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cabin on the Coast Question", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8c15c$f92d32a0$dcd14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nTim was told that Lissy would remember nothing of her abduction, because\nthere would be nothing to remember; the abduction would never have happened,\njust as Tim would never have spoken to the cop. Tim lost a complete\ntwenty-four hours, from the morning she disappeared to the morning he swam\nout to look for her. Was time turned back forty-eight hours for Lissy, to\nthe first morning at the cabin?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For simplicity I'll assume that the clock was turned back to a single \npoint in time. As you say, the evidence points to it being the morning \nafter they built the driftwood fire on the beach. In the original \ntime-line, Lissy woke up first and went out while Tim was still asleep. \nShe was looking for her fairy lover (I think Tim failed a test when he \ndidn't sleep with her on the beach as she asked). In this new time-line, \nLissy finds Tim gone and assumes he has gone for a swim, therefore she \nremains in bed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If that is so, then there is no reason she should not remember her\nhypothetical fairy lover, because that would have happened a full day before\nher abduction. Will she go down to the water the next morning again to seek\nhim? If the King had the power to turn back the clock for Lissy, why not\nturn it back to before his alleged seduction of her and avoid the problem?\nIn which case he would have no need to leave a used towel behind.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She probably does remember the King in whatever form he took and \nwhatever story he told her the previous morning. She certainly wouldn't \nshare that information with \"Big Tim.\" The King only promised that \nthings would stand as they were \"before we took her.\" The devious being \nmay be hoping to have it all, to get Lissy after Tim leaves in despair.\n\nI'm not sure what you mean about turning the clock back before the \nseduction. In my theory, the King wants Lissy to remember that. I \nsuppose he could have used magic to cover his tracks and leave the towel \ndry. He either didn't bother, or he might have thought it would make \nLissy fearful if she noticed what he did." } ] }, { "message_id": "<483FF7D6.9040908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-05-30T12:49:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cabin on the Coast Question", "in_reply_to": "<483E6D99.5070003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So far, we've only talked about physical evidence for the Daniel/Lissy \ntheory. If it's true, there should also be clues in the dialog that all \nis not well with the Tim/Lissy relationship.\n\n1) The relationship has barely started and Tim is pushing for marriage.\n \"We've made a mistake,\" he said. \"I was trying to fix it just now.\"\n\n2) Tim says her dying in childbirth is \"the risk I have to take.\"\n\n3) Lissy hopes Tim won't end up looking like his father. Tim says he will.\n\n4) Tim has no problem with the fact that his mother gave birth to him \nalone while his father went to a political convention.\n\n5) He doesn't answer her challenge about \"Traditional roles... The woman \nhas the babies and keeps the home fires burning.\"\n\n6) He offers her a giant hot dog the same size as his instead of asking \nher how much she wants.\n\n7) He doesn't honor her wish to sleep on the beach. He carries her back \ninside when she falls asleep.\n\nTim may have started to look like an old-fashioned male chauvinist to \nLissy. She might well consider other boyfriends, like the glamorous King \nDaniel. (I'm sure he could put out a lot of glamor in the old sense of \nthe word).\n\nI expect that nothing physical happened between her and the King on that \nfirst visit when he left a damp towel. He just made her an offer and got \nher thinking. She made her decision the next morning when she left Tim \nasleep and went out to find Daniel." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2008-05-30T14:24:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cabin on the Coast Question", "in_reply_to": "<483FF7D6.9040908@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a message dated 5/30/2008 8:50:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, \ndavetallman at msn.com writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I expect that nothing physical happened between her and the King \non that first visit when he left a damp towel. He just made her an \noffer and got her thinking. She made her decision the next morning \nwhen she left Tim asleep and went out to find Daniel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a great discussion.\n \nFirst, and a very minor point, I think Lissy used the towel and not\nthe King. The King would have stayed outside.\n \nSecond, I think Tim was tricked. I think the fairies can only take \npeople who are willing. This is a trait commonly attributed to the\nFair Folk, and the King says \"I'll have no unwillin' hands about me\nboat.\" \n \nWas Lissy willing? She may have been thinking about it, but had \nshe said \"yes\" yet? I expect not. The King says \"We'd sooner \nhave a broth of a girl like yer Lissy than a great hulk of a lad like \nyourself, but then too, we'd sooner be havin' one that's willin', for \nthe unwillin' girls are everywhere - I don't doubt but ye've seen it \nyerself.\" \n \nSo here's a tentative timetable.\n \n1. Tim and Lissy arrive at the cabin, make love, and fall asleep. \nLater that night she goes out for a swim, and meets the King,\nwho makes her an offer.\n \n2. Tim goes out for a morning swm, and when he comes back,\nLissy admonishes him for going out without a suit. (Why? She\ndid it earlier. But maybe it's different if there are fairies around.)\n \n3. Tim and Lissy spend the day together and have the cookout\non the beach. She realizes how much of a male chauvanist he\nis.\n \n4. Lissy wakes up in the morning, and goes out to talk to the\nKing and try to decide whether to accept his offer.\n \n5. Tim wakes up, notices Lissy missing, and after talking to\nthe police and calling his father, swims after the King's boat\nand trades himself for Lissy.\n \n4'. Tim swims back from the ocean and twenty years service,\nand Lissy wakes up and mistakes him for Big Tim. Notice \nTim sees the remains of their cookout fire when he reaches \nthe beach, so this comes after 3 in the timeline. (So Tim would\nindeed be wearing his trunks.)\n \nWhile writing this, I had another idea. I'm now inclined to believe \nthe offer Lissy was entertaining (and had in this case quite\npossibly accepted) from the King was more along the lines of \na one night stand than twenty years in Fairyland.\n \n\n\n\n**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch \"Cooking with \nTyler Florence\" on AOL Food. \n(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4840580D.7050209@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-05-30T19:39:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cabin on the Coast Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "StoneOx17 said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a great discussion.\n \nFirst, and a very minor point, I think Lissy used the towel and not\nthe King. The King would have stayed outside.\n \nSecond, I think Tim was tricked. I think the fairies can only take \npeople who are willing. This is a trait commonly attributed to the\nFair Folk, and the King says \"I'll have no unwillin' hands about me\nboat.\" \n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's often said that the Fair Folk cannot enter a human dwelling \nwithout an invitation, so you could be right. I still have bit of a \nproblem with Lissy doing a secret midnight skinny-dip. The next morning \nshe says to Tim, \"I want a swimming lesson. What will people say if I \ntell them I came here and didn't go swimming?\"\n\nShe could be lying because she wants to conceal that she met the King, \nbut she could still mention her swim without telling that part." } ] }, { "message_id": "<484775B3.6080109@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-05T05:12:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cabin on the Coast Question", "in_reply_to": "<4840580D.7050209@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Straight wrote:\nAnd Wolfe (and/or the King) is especially tricky because at first Tim\nis told \"You'll serve for 100 years and then return\" which makes it\nseem obvious that Tim would not age or would be magically made young\nagain. So then when the term is lowered to 25 years, we have the same\nexpectation.\n\nPerhaps Tim would have been better off if he'd taken the original\noffer of 100 years?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. Unless he closed that loophole as part of the bargain, \nthe King would be within his rights to leave Tim dying of old age at the \nend of his service.\n\nI noticed that the ship-creatures laughed at Tim after he touched his \nforehead. They might have done this because touching one's forehead is \nthe first step in crossing oneself and Tim didn't follow through with \nthe rest. King Daniel and crew seem quite devilish to me. (They are \nlinked to Domdaniel, an abode of evil spirits which also gets a mention \nin \"Seven American Nights.\" The ship also reminds me of the ogre-ship \nwhich carried off young women in the Theseus/Minotaur-like story \"The \nStudent and his Son.\")" } ] } ] }