Subject: (urth) Cabin on the Coast question

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 22:53:54 +0000

I was rereading some stories in "Endangered Species" and I had a 
question: what is Tim wearing in the final scene?

There are two possible answers:
1) Swimming trunks.
He swam out to the black freighter in his trunks, so it would make sense 
for him to return in them, if they still fit...

2) Nothing.
If things will "stand so again" as on the day Lissy vanished, Tim 
started that day naked in bed.

In either case, especially the latter, Lissy's reaction to "Big Tim" is 
disturbing. She doesn't scream at a naked or almost-naked man barging in 
on her. She talks to him casually. Are we to infer that she has also 
been the lover of "Big Tim?"

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 08:09:39 +0000

>been the lover of "Big Tim?"

No. She had never met Tim's father; she had seen him only in pictures. In
the pictures, he was very gaunt. Though the fairy King had promised things
would be just as they were for Lissy "and all the country round" on the
morning she disappeared, that didn't apply equally for Tim. The King had
promised that Tim would remember his time in the otherworld, but that didn't
turn out to be true. Neither did the King mention that Tim would be at least
twenty years older when he was released from service, but that is what
happened. Fairies lie and otherwise deceive.

When Tim returned to the cabin and opened the door, Lissy saw an older,
thinner man who looked just like the man in the pictures she had seen. Tim
had earlier told her that he would come to look just like his father,
because he then looked just as his father had looked when his father was the
same age. She mistook Tim for his father. I don't think she spoke to him
"casually". She was trying to make the best of a compromising situation by
blurting out to "Big Tim" that she and his "son" were planning to get
married.

After all, regardless of whatever the man she thought was "Big Tim" was
wearing, or not wearing, she was herself conspicuously naked in Big Tim's
bed. She was in no position to say anything about the other's wardrobe, or
lack thereof.

-Roy

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From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 12:09:08 +0000

> happened. Fairies lie and otherwise deceive.
I think you are right. I prefer that ending, anyway. It would lessen the 
tragedy if Tim found out that Lissy was lying about never having met his 
father. The fairy King didn't really lie, because Tim does retain some 
memories of his years of service (he plans to tell Lissy about them but 
pretend they are just stories). Having those memories means he has an 
older brain, and with that goes an older body. The King just didn't 
spell out the implications.

> bed. She was in no position to say anything about the other's wardrobe, or
I would have thought she'd be a little more formal, but it does make 
sense for her to blurt out things when she is caught in a compromising 
situation. She first tries a friendly approach. Then, mistaking his look 
of horror for concern about scandal, she tells him that she and Tim will 
be married.

What will Tim do next?  If he tries to explain she'll never believe him. 
The best thing to spare her feelings would be to pretend to be his 
father and say something like "Get out! I sent him away and you'll never 
see him again." He could follow that up with a letter to get her to move 
on. Life isn't going to be easy for Tim. He's lost not only his love but 
his identity.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 18:14:07 +0000

>on. Life isn't going to be easy for Tim. He's lost not only his love but

I should probably just leave this alone, but there is one nagging detail
that I can't explain or ignore. It's that damn "already damp and a trifle
sandy" towel Tim used after he showered upon returning from his
early-morning swim on the morning *before* Lissy disappeared, on the second
page of the story. Who had used the towel before Tim?

-Roy

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 19:44:40 +0000

> I should probably just leave this alone, but there is one nagging detail
that I can't explain or ignore.
> It's that damn "already damp and a trifle sandy" towel Tim used after he
showered upon returning
> from his early-morning swim on the morning *before* Lissy disappeared, on
the second
> page of the story. Who had used the towel before Tim?

Good clue-spotting. All right, let's pursue this. There are some other
interesting details:

1) Lissy was awake and sitting up when Tim entered on the day of the damp
towel.

2) There are five wooden steps leading up to the beach cottage, and they
creak.

3) The cottage has two windows, opposite each other (early morning light
from one enters the other).

4) Tim and Lissy apparently went straight to bed the night before without a
swim. Lissy's clothes were kicked under the bed. No bags were unpacked from
the car.

5) Lissy didn't swim herself that morning. Her swimsuit was still in the
car.

It looks like Lissy received another visitor while Tim was swimming. That
person came from the sea and dried off, leaving the towel damp and sandy. He
could have left by the back window when he heard the creaking steps.

That visitor was not Big Tim, because Lissy says "You did come" at the end.

Who else could it be? Why not Daniel O'Donoghue himself? He can take any
form and might well have seduced Lissy, a preliminary move before her
abduction. He's not immune to the urge if one of his forms is a satyr. The
reference to "unwillin' girls" is deceptive.

Daniel of Domdaniel has a motive for what he did to Tim beyond mere fey
trickiness. He's getting his rival out of the way.
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From: Michael Straight <mfstraight at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 21:32:33 +0000

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 6:09 AM, Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com> wrote:

>The fairy King didn't really lie, because Tim does retain some
> pretend they are just stories). Having those memories means he has an older
> brain, and with that goes an older body. The King just didn't spell out the
> implications.

And Wolfe (and/or the King) is especially tricky because at first Tim
is told "You'll serve for 100 years and then return" which makes it
seem obvious that Tim would not age or would be magically made young
again.  So then when the term is lowered to 25 years, we have the same
expectation.

Perhaps Tim would have been better off if he'd taken the original
offer of 100 years?

Also, note the similar situation in Pirate Freedom.

-- Rostrum

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 07:23:58 +0000

>reference to "unwillin' girls" is deceptive.

That's possible, but there is a problem with the timeline. When the King
said that things would be as they were before Lissy was taken, he didn't
specify exactly how long before she was taken. Was it a minute? An hour? A
day? And was the time the same for her as it was for Tim?

Lissy disappeared on their second morning at the cabin. The night before
that, they had built a driftwood fire on the beach and emptied a bottle of
wine. When Tim came back to the real world from the otherworld, the sun was
just coming up. On the beach, he saw the tide-washed remnants of that fire
and the empty wine bottle. So he came back to reality on the second morning
they had been at the cabin, to find Lissy naked but safe in bed, and Tim
himself had aged quite a bit.

Tim was told that Lissy would remember nothing of her abduction, because
there would be nothing to remember; the abduction would never have happened,
just as Tim would never have spoken to the cop. Tim lost a complete
twenty-four hours, from the morning she disappeared to the morning he swam
out to look for her. Was time turned back forty-eight hours for Lissy, to
the first morning at the cabin?

If that is so, then there is no reason she should not remember her
hypothetical fairy lover, because that would have happened a full day before
her abduction. Will she go down to the water the next morning again to seek
him? If the King had the power to turn back the clock for Lissy, why not
turn it back to before his alleged seduction of her and avoid the problem?
In which case he would have no need to leave a used towel behind.

-Roy

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From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 08:47:21 +0000

> the first morning at the cabin?
For simplicity I'll assume that the clock was turned back to a single 
point in time. As you say, the evidence points to it being the morning 
after they built the driftwood fire on the beach. In the original 
time-line, Lissy woke up first and went out while Tim was still asleep. 
She was looking for her fairy lover (I think Tim failed a test when he 
didn't sleep with her on the beach as she asked). In this new time-line, 
Lissy finds Tim gone and assumes he has gone for a swim, therefore she 
remains in bed.

> In which case he would have no need to leave a used towel behind.
She probably does remember the King in whatever form he took and 
whatever story he told her the previous morning. She certainly wouldn't 
share that information with "Big Tim." The King only promised that 
things would stand as they were "before we took her." The devious being 
may be hoping to have it all, to get Lissy after Tim leaves in despair.

I'm not sure what you mean about turning the clock back before the 
seduction. In my theory, the King wants Lissy to remember that. I 
suppose he could have used magic to cover his tracks and leave the towel 
dry.  He either didn't bother, or he might have thought it would make 
Lissy fearful if she noticed what he did.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 12:49:26 +0000

So far, we've only talked about physical evidence for the Daniel/Lissy 
theory. If it's true, there should also be clues in the dialog that all 
is not well with the Tim/Lissy relationship.

1) The relationship has barely started and Tim is pushing for marriage.
    "We've made a mistake," he said. "I was trying to fix it just now."

2) Tim says her dying in childbirth is "the risk I have to take."

3) Lissy hopes Tim won't end up looking like his father. Tim says he will.

4) Tim has no problem with the fact that his mother gave birth to him 
alone while his father went to a political convention.

5) He doesn't answer her challenge about "Traditional roles... The woman 
has the babies and keeps the home fires burning."

6) He offers her a giant hot dog the same size as his instead of asking 
her how much she wants.

7) He doesn't honor her wish to sleep on the beach. He carries her back 
inside when she falls asleep.

Tim may have started to look like an old-fashioned male chauvinist to 
Lissy. She might well consider other boyfriends, like the glamorous King 
Daniel. (I'm sure he could put out a lot of glamor in the old sense of 
the word).

I expect that nothing physical happened between her and the King on that 
first visit when he left a damp towel. He just made her an offer and got 
her thinking. She made her decision the next morning when she left Tim 
asleep and went out to find Daniel.

---

From: StoneOx17 at aol.com <stoneox17 at aol.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 14:24:00 +0000

In a message dated 5/30/2008 8:50:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
davetallman at msn.com writes:

> I expect that nothing physical happened between her and the King 
> on that first visit when he left a damp towel. He just made her an 
> offer and got her thinking. She made her decision the next morning 
> when she left Tim asleep and went out to find Daniel.

This is a great discussion.
 
First, and a very minor point, I think Lissy used the towel and not
the King.  The King would have stayed outside.
 
Second, I think Tim was tricked.  I think the fairies can only take 
people who are willing.  This is a trait commonly attributed to  the
Fair Folk, and the King says "I'll have no unwillin' hands about me
boat."  
 
Was Lissy willing?  She may have been thinking about it, but had 
she said "yes" yet?  I expect not.  The King says "We'd sooner 
have a broth of a girl like yer Lissy than a great hulk of a lad like 
yourself, but then too, we'd sooner be havin' one that's willin', for 
the unwillin' girls are everywhere - I don't doubt but ye've seen it 
yerself." 
 
So here's a tentative timetable.
 
1. Tim and Lissy arrive at the cabin, make love, and fall asleep.  
Later that night she goes out for a swim, and meets the King,
who makes her an offer.
 
2. Tim goes out for a morning swm, and when he comes back,
Lissy admonishes him for going out without a suit. (Why?  She
did it earlier. But maybe it's different if there are fairies  around.)
 
3. Tim and Lissy spend the day together and have the cookout
on the beach. She realizes how much of a male chauvanist he
is.
 
4. Lissy wakes up in the morning, and goes out to talk to the
King and try to decide whether to accept his offer.
 
5. Tim wakes up, notices Lissy missing, and after talking to
the police and calling his father, swims after the King's boat
and trades himself for Lissy.
 
4'. Tim swims back from the ocean and twenty years service,
and Lissy wakes up and mistakes him for Big Tim. Notice 
Tim sees the remains of their cookout fire when he reaches 
the beach, so this comes after 3 in the timeline. (So Tim would
indeed be wearing his trunks.)
 
While writing this, I had another idea. I'm now inclined to believe 
the offer Lissy was entertaining (and had in this case quite
possibly accepted) from the King was more along the lines of 
a one night stand than twenty years in Fairyland.

**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with 
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.      
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)

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From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 19:39:57 +0000

> Fair Folk, and the King says "I'll have no unwillin' hands about me
I think it's often said that the Fair Folk cannot enter a human dwelling 
without an invitation, so you could be right. I still have bit of a 
problem with Lissy doing a secret midnight skinny-dip. The next morning 
she says to Tim, "I want a swimming lesson. What will people say if I 
tell them I came here and didn't go swimming?"

She could be lying because she wants to conceal that she met the King, 
but she could still mention her swim without telling that part.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:12:19 +0000

> Perhaps Tim would have been better off if he'd taken the original
I don't think so. Unless he closed that loophole as part of the bargain, 
the King would be within his rights to leave Tim dying of old age at the 
end of his service.

I noticed that the ship-creatures laughed at Tim after he touched his 
forehead. They might have done this because touching one's forehead is 
the first step in crossing oneself and Tim didn't follow through with 
the rest. King Daniel and crew seem quite devilish to me. (They are 
linked to Domdaniel, an abode of evil spirits which also gets a mention 
in "Seven American Nights." The ship also reminds me of the ogre-ship 
which carried off young women in the Theseus/Minotaur-like story "The 
Student and his Son.")