{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5037", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5037, "subject": "Severian as a student", "messages": 15, "voices": 8, "first": "2008-05-31T23:55:18+00:00", "last": "2008-06-06T07:43:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4841E566.7090005@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-05-31T23:55:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The feat of reconstructing the entire \"Book of the New Sun\" from memory \nis sufficient to prove to me that Severian had a photographic memory as \nhe claimed. Nobody would even attempt such a task without one. If they \ndid, it wouldn't read like something carefully written; it would be full \nof mistakes and backtracks.\n\nBut when he left the guild, Master Palaemon tried to give him advice for \nthe road. Severian missed it because he wasn't paying attention. \nPalaemon said, \"Now you must do without it, but doubtless you would have \nforgotten everything anyway.\"\n\nAt first it may seem strange that Palaemon regarded him as having a poor \nmemory. But there is a simple explanation. Early on, Severian must have \nlearned that it was a poor strategy to be a teacher's pet in a school \nfilled with other boys trained in the art of excruciation. He learned to \nact the part of a poor student. This is similar how \"I, Claudius\" had to \nact the part of a fool to survive.\n\n\"I had lied often to Master Gurloes and Master Palaemon, to Master \nMalrubius while he still lived, to Drotte because he was captain, to \nRoche because he was older and stronger than I, and to Eata an the other \nsmaller apprentices because I hoped to make them respect me.\"\n\nHere's an example of how it worked. \"Outside, feigning ignorance, I \nasked Master Palaemon who Vodalus of the wood was.\" Severian got a \nrebuke for listening to the words of a client, and another for keeping \nhis hands in his pocket (a deliberate act to deflect the Master's \nanger). Just as he intended, he got Drotte to tell him about Vodalus \nwithout revealing that he already knew the name.\n\nThey say it's more difficult to lie than to tell the truth because a \nliar has more to remember. Severian wouldn't have a problem with that. \nThen also suggests that discrepancies should be harmonized where \npossible instead of treating them as signs of lies. Severian should be \nmost consistent when he is lying. If this book was a rewrite from memory \nhe got a second chance to fix any mistakes.\n\nThe hand-off of the gun from Vodalus to Hildegrin or Thea is easily \nreconciled. Hildegrin said he couldn't use it, so it was clearly with \nthe approval of Vodalus that Thea took it next. Thus he \"gave the pistol \nto his mistress\" even though he handed it first to Hildegrin." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8c3b3$2095a720$01ce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-01T06:45:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": "<4841E566.7090005@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nThe feat of reconstructing the entire \"Book of the New Sun\" from memory\nis sufficient to prove to me that Severian had a photographic memory as\nhe claimed. Nobody would even attempt such a task without one. If they\ndid, it wouldn't read like something carefully written; it would be full\nof mistakes and backtracks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By \"reconstructing\", I can only conclude you are referring to the copy\nSeverian made from memory shortly after boarding the Ship.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They say it's more difficult to lie than to tell the truth because a\nliar has more to remember. Severian wouldn't have a problem with that.\nThen also suggests that discrepancies should be harmonized where\npossible instead of treating them as signs of lies. Severian should be\nmost consistent when he is lying. If this book was a rewrite from memory\nhe got a second chance to fix any mistakes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, what do you mean by \"rewrite\" and \"second chance\"? His original\nmanuscript was written shortly before boarding the Ship and sent to Ultan.\nWhichever version Wolfe \"translated\", we have no means of comparing the Ship\ncopy to the original. The events recounted in the manuscript were first\nwritten down ten years after Sev became autarch. There was no running\naccount made over the years that he could redact at leisure. The copy seems\nto have been written out only days or weeks after completing the original\nmanuscript." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The hand-off of the gun from Vodalus to Hildegrin or Thea is easily\nreconciled. Hildegrin said he couldn't use it, so it was clearly with\nthe approval of Vodalus that Thea took it next. Thus he \"gave the pistol\nto his mistress\" even though he handed it first to Hildegrin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I made a longish post here years ago about mistakes and inconsistencies of\nmemory in NEW SUN. IIRC, I concluded that the mistake about the gun was\nprobably Wolfe's, not Sev's, because the second mention of the hand-off,\nthis time to Thea, is repeated by Wolfe in the appendix to CITADEL. (It is\npossible that the first mention in SHADOW is a left-handed hint by Wolfe\nthat Sev's memory isn't entirely to be trusted, but the revelation would be\nrather far from the source.)\n\nMost of the mistakes of memory are about things that are not, in themselves,\nworth lying about. It doesn't really matter whether the pouch Dorcas sewed\nwas made of doeskin or manskin, or if Roche or Drotte said they saw the\npikes on the second page of the story. Unless they are all mistakes by\nWolfe, the errors were put there by Wolfe to let the careful reader know\nthat Sev's memory isn't quite as ostentatiously accurate as Sev loudly\nclaims it to be.\n\nSev is an admitted liar, but his worst deceptions are his omissions.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48425753.70809@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-01T08:01:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8c3b3$2095a720$01ce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nMost of the mistakes of memory are about things that are not, in themselves,\nworth lying about. It doesn't really matter whether the pouch Dorcas sewed\nwas made of doeskin or manskin, or if Roche or Drotte said they saw the\npikes on the second page of the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev is an admitted liar, but his worst deceptions are his omissions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you combine these concepts, the Roche or Drotte mistake could be a \nredaction error where for example a fourth boy's presence was elided by \ninconsistently assigning his dialogue to another, making it as \nlie-worthy as anything." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<484386BE.5080200@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-02T05:35:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": "<48425753.70809@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAgain, what do you mean by \"rewrite\" and \"second chance\"? His original\nmanuscript was written shortly before boarding the Ship and sent to Ultan.\nWhichever version Wolfe \"translated\", we have no means of comparing the Ship\ncopy to the original. The events recounted in the manuscript were first\nwritten down ten years after Sev became autarch. There was no running\naccount made over the years that he could redact at leisure. The copy seems\nto have been written out only days or weeks after completing the original\nmanuscript.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps I am making an unjustified assumption, but I thought it was a \ngiven that the copy made on the time-traveling Ship was the only copy \nthat Wolfe could have obtained and \"translated.\" If the copy given to \nUltan is the version we are reading, then my point is not valid. \nSeverian could consult all the resources available to an Autarch to \nwrite the first one. If this is the second manuscript, it's too good in \nthe level of detail and style to be the work of a person with an \nordinary memory attempting to re-create the book they just wrote.\n\nEven though it was written soon after the other one, it still gave \nSeverian a second chance to notice \"Hey, what I wrote here is \ninconsistent with what I wrote there.\" The fact that it was rewritten \nwithin a short time makes the inconsistencies even more strange. His \nmemory has to play tricks on him not only about the events themselves, \nbut in his memory of writing about them." } ] }, { "message_id": "<002401c8c53b$7ddc6fc0$c2cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-03T05:34:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": "<484386BE.5080200@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nPerhaps I am making an unjustified assumption, but I thought it was a\ngiven that the copy made on the time-traveling Ship was the only copy\nthat Wolfe could have obtained and \"translated.\" If the copy given to\nUltan is the version we are reading, then my point is not valid.\nSeverian could consult all the resources available to an Autarch to\nwrite the first one. If this is the second manuscript, it's too good in\nthe level of detail and style to be the work of a person with an\nordinary memory attempting to re-create the book they just wrote." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter which document Wolfe\ntranslated. The text we have is all there is. The conceit is that, thanks to\nSeverian's vaunted memory, the copy he made is identical in content to the\noriginal manuscript -- and we have no way of knowing otherwise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even though it was written soon after the other one, it still gave\nSeverian a second chance to notice \"Hey, what I wrote here is\ninconsistent with what I wrote there.\" The fact that it was rewritten\nwithin a short time makes the inconsistencies even more strange. His\nmemory has to play tricks on him not only about the events themselves,\nbut in his memory of writing about them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We are talking about inconsistencies within the same document, not comparing\ndocuments. When Sev relates some incident in his document, then has occasion\nlater in the document to make reference to the same incident, and the two\naccounts are inconsistent, then obviously at least one mistake has been\nmade. It doesn't really matter whether Hildegrin or Thea received the gun\nfrom Vodalus; neither used it. The only question is whether Wolfe or Sev\nmade the mistake.\n\nIf Sev ever had occasion to notice that he had contradicted himself, then he\nhad the opportunity to correct his account by amending it, either by\nchanging the first mention to agree with the second, or the other way\naround. And we would never know that he had made a mistake of memory. He\ntakes such pains to insist that his memory is perfect that he would never\nknowingly demonstrate that it wasn't.\n\nThe doeskin/manskin pouch thing is not as easily dismissed as most of the\nother mistakes. Doeskin and manskin have very different connotations. It is\nalmost impossible for me to believe that Wolfe made that mistake. It is\nalmost equally difficult for me to believe that dear Dorcas would sew a\npouch made from human skin to house the most celebrated religious icon on\nthe planet.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4846763E.7070600@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-04T11:02:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": "<002401c8c53b$7ddc6fc0$c2cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nWe are talking about inconsistencies within the same document, not comparing\ndocuments. When Sev relates some incident in his document, then has occasion\nlater in the document to make reference to the same incident, and the two\naccounts are inconsistent, then obviously at least one mistake has been\nmade. It doesn't really matter whether Hildegrin or Thea received the gun\nfrom Vodalus; neither used it. The only question is whether Wolfe or Sev\nmade the mistake.\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There in a line in Claw which helps clarify matters:\n\"But I can remember more than many would credit: the position of each \nobject on a table I walked past when I was a child, and even that I have \nrecalled some scene to mind previously, and how that remembered incident \ndiffered from the memory I have of it now.\"\n\nSeverian's memory is vivid and detailed to him, but not necessarily \nperfect. He also mentions weak judgement. Perhaps he records the \nmemories as they occur to him at the time of writing, not judging \nbetween versions if the differences are trivial." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Sev ever had occasion to notice that he had contradicted himself, then he\nhad the opportunity to correct his account by amending it, either by\nchanging the first mention to agree with the second, or the other way\naround. And we would never know that he had made a mistake of memory. He\ntakes such pains to insist that his memory is perfect that he would never\nknowingly demonstrate that it wasn't.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may also be that the rewriting just used memories of the act of \nwriting itself in order to re-create the book quickly. Sev may not have \nexercised additional editorial judgement in the process." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The doeskin/manskin pouch thing is not as easily dismissed as most of the\nother mistakes. Doeskin and manskin have very different connotations. It is\nalmost impossible for me to believe that Wolfe made that mistake. It is\nalmost equally difficult for me to believe that dear Dorcas would sew a\npouch made from human skin to house the most celebrated religious icon on\nthe planet.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The sheath of Terminus Est was manskin, which was an appropriate \nmaterial for it. Probably Dorcas used doeskin and Sev's memories of the \nsheath got mixed in somewhere.\n\nI found an additional reference to his student days: \" It was my power \nof recollection that made me the favorite pupil of Master Palaemon.\" \nGoing back to my theory, I think that this may have been true in the \nearly days of working with Palaemon until Sev decided it was dangerous \nto show up the other students. Then he went into the act of having a \npoor memory.\n\nThe eidelon Malrubius said, \"You were always the most careless of my \nboys.\" Sev at first pretended that he didn't remember studying the seven \nprinciples of governance, but when pressed he could name them. That also \nfits the poor-student-act theory." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0806040653i1bc32368i344261c13d9f64d7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2008-06-04T13:53:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": "<4846763E.7070600@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C Lackey wrote:\nThe doeskin/manskin pouch thing is not as easily dismissed as most of the\nother mistakes. Doeskin and manskin have very different connotations. It is\nalmost impossible for me to believe that Wolfe made that mistake. It is\nalmost equally difficult for me to believe that dear Dorcas would sew a\npouch made from human skin to house the most celebrated religious icon on\nthe planet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For what it's worth, speaking as a copy editor I have absolutely no\nproblem believing Wolfe could have made that mistake. Writers make all\nsorts of mistakes, and one I regularly see is the accidental\nsubstitution of one word for another that apparently sparked some of\nthe same synapses in the author's brain." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080604223528.AA95011803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-04T22:35:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0806040653i1bc32368i344261c13d9f64d7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:53:22 +1000 Tony Ellis \n wrote:\n\nFor what it's worth, speaking as a copy editor I have absolutely \nno\nproblem believing Wolfe could have made that mistake. Writers make " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "all\nsorts of mistakes, and one I regularly see is the accidental\nsubstitution of one word for another that apparently sparked some \nof\nthe same synapses in the author's brain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also for what it's worth, recall the old boatman talking about the \ncorpses submerged in the botanic gardens. He says the waters turn \ntheir skin to leather - not like a boot-heel, but like a lady's \nglove. Doeskin is/was I think a common material for gloves.\n\nProbably doesn't mean anything, but maybe some context for an \naccidental substitution by Wolfe." } ] }, { "message_id": "<775142.22820.qm@web83715.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-06-05T01:11:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": "<20080604223528.AA95011803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's interesting that the people of Urth find nothing\nstrange about using human skin as a fabric. Does\nthis simply reflect the poverty of a society that is\nrunning out of energy and resources? Or is it more\nof a comment on the immorality of a society that\ntreats people as things?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n\n\nOn Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:53:22 +1000 Tony Ellis \n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "For what it's worth, speaking as a copy editor I\nhave absolutely \nno\nproblem believing Wolfe could have made that\nmistake. Writers make " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "all\nsorts of mistakes, and one I regularly see is the\naccidental\nsubstitution of one word for another that\napparently sparked some \nof\nthe same synapses in the author's brain." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also for what it's worth, recall the old boatman\ntalking about the \ncorpses submerged in the botanic gardens. He says\nthe waters turn \ntheir skin to leather - not like a boot-heel, but\nlike a lady's \nglove. Doeskin is/was I think a common material for\ngloves.\n\nProbably doesn't mean anything, but maybe some\ncontext for an \naccidental substitution by Wolfe.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B55431D-B8B1-4A49-8F06-B2E5115BFF71@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-05T01:15:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": "<775142.22820.qm@web83715.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why assume that the two things are unrelated? Form follows function; \nmorality follows, in many respects, the practicalities of the \nsituation, at least insofar as we're willing to define morality by \nconsequences. Running out of resources could have directed the moral \nchange.\n\nOr it could just be for the shock value.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 4, 2008, at 8:11 PM, John Smith wrote:\n\nIt's interesting that the people of Urth find nothing\nstrange about using human skin as a fabric. Does\nthis simply reflect the poverty of a society that is\nrunning out of energy and resources? Or is it more\nof a comment on the immorality of a society that\ntreats people as things?\n\n\n--- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:53:22 +1000 Tony Ellis\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "For what it's worth, speaking as a copy editor I\nhave absolutely\nno\nproblem believing Wolfe could have made that\nmistake. Writers make" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "all\nsorts of mistakes, and one I regularly see is the\naccidental\nsubstitution of one word for another that\napparently sparked some\nof\nthe same synapses in the author's brain." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also for what it's worth, recall the old boatman\ntalking about the\ncorpses submerged in the botanic gardens. He says\nthe waters turn\ntheir skin to leather - not like a boot-heel, but\nlike a lady's\nglove. Doeskin is/was I think a common material for\ngloves.\n\nProbably doesn't mean anything, but maybe some\ncontext for an\naccidental substitution by Wolfe.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<29BF53C3-EFC6-4733-9941-8EEB5899EF30@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-05T01:24:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": "<775142.22820.qm@web83715.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 4, 2008, at 8:11 PM, John Smith wrote:\n\nIt's interesting that the people of Urth find nothing\nstrange about using human skin as a fabric. Does\nthis simply reflect the poverty of a society that is\nrunning out of energy and resources? Or is it more\nof a comment on the immorality of a society that\ntreats people as things?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, much more the second, I think.\n\nOf course, it's not entirely unknown as a bookbinding even on plain \nold Earth.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48474AD1.5050203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-05T02:09:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": "<002401c8c53b$7ddc6fc0$c2cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThe doeskin/manskin pouch thing is not as easily dismissed as most of the\nother mistakes. Doeskin and manskin have very different connotations. It is\nalmost impossible for me to believe that Wolfe made that mistake. It is\nalmost equally difficult for me to believe that dear Dorcas would sew a\npouch made from human skin to house the most celebrated religious icon on\nthe planet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why not? The greatest sacrifice to honor the greatest sacrifice." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48474C6C.4010706@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-05T02:16:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": "<775142.22820.qm@web83715.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Smith wrote:\nIt's interesting that the people of Urth find nothing\nstrange about using human skin as a fabric. Does\nthis simply reflect the poverty of a society that is\nrunning out of energy and resources? Or is it more\nof a comment on the immorality of a society that\ntreats people as things?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mechanical limbs, animal parts on otherwise human bodies, human faces on \nanimals, and relics of many epochs are everyday sights around Nesus and \nthe Citadel; I doubt leather made from human skin turns many heads of \nany species any more." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003701c8c74f$1d503a40$c3d04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-05T20:59:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": "<48474C6C.4010706@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nThe doeskin/manskin pouch thing is not as easily dismissed as most of the\nother mistakes. Doeskin and manskin have very different connotations. It\nis\nalmost impossible for me to believe that Wolfe made that mistake. It is\nalmost equally difficult for me to believe that dear Dorcas would sew a\npouch made from human skin to house the most celebrated religious icon on\nthe planet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why not? The greatest sacrifice to honor the greatest sacrifice." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are two basic types of sacrifice -- those made voluntarily and those\nin which the subject of the sacrifice is a reluctant participant. The\noverwhelming majority of sacrifices involving human skin are of the second\nkind.\n\nTheories that equate the Conciliator in any meaningful way with Christianity\nare fundamentally flawed. The latter is about the sacrifice of a god for\nthe world and the people in it. Severian the Conciliator sacrificed the\nworld and the people in it, while he got to survive, sitting on the beach in\nUshas, writing his second memoir while watching the girls go by and\notherwise enjoying the pampered pastimes of a petty god.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4848EAA8.2010803@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-06T07:43:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian as a student", "in_reply_to": "<003701c8c74f$1d503a40$c3d04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The doeskin/manskin pouch thing is not as easily dismissed as most of the\nother mistakes. Doeskin and manskin have very different connotations. It\nis\nalmost impossible for me to believe that Wolfe made that mistake. It is\nalmost equally difficult for me to believe that dear Dorcas would sew a\npouch made from human skin to house the most celebrated religious icon on\nthe planet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why not? The greatest sacrifice to honor the greatest sacrifice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are two basic types of sacrifice -- those made voluntarily and those\nin which the subject of the sacrifice is a reluctant participant. The\noverwhelming majority of sacrifices involving human skin are of the second\nkind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So are the overwhelming majority of crucifixions, yet the cross is still \n a positive symbol for Christians." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Theories that equate the Conciliator in any meaningful way with Christianity\nare fundamentally flawed. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm comparing them chiefly in the capacity of people to honor their \nhighest beliefs in ways that don't necessarily scan for people of other \nbeliefs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The latter is about the sacrifice of a god for\nthe world and the people in it. Severian the Conciliator sacrificed the\nworld and the people in it, while he got to survive, sitting on the beach in\nUshas, writing his second memoir while watching the girls go by and\notherwise enjoying the pampered pastimes of a petty god." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know that Severian would necessarily be accepted as the Sleeper \nin that distant time; he would seem to have no Conciliator abilities \nleft, and the ability to walk the Corridors of Time doesn't seem \naccurate enough to take advantage of impressing people in a particular \nplace and time. He's a leftover vessel, empty of power except for his \ncompelling narrative." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }