Subject: (urth) Severian as a student

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 23:55:18 +0000

The feat of reconstructing the entire "Book of the New Sun" from memory 
is sufficient to prove to me that Severian had a photographic memory as 
he claimed. Nobody would even attempt such a task without one. If they 
did, it wouldn't read like something carefully written; it would be full 
of mistakes and backtracks.

But when he left the guild, Master Palaemon tried to give him advice for 
the road. Severian missed it because he wasn't paying attention. 
Palaemon said, "Now you must do without it, but doubtless you would have 
forgotten everything anyway."

At first it may seem strange that Palaemon regarded him as having a poor 
memory.  But there is a simple explanation. Early on, Severian must have 
learned that it was a poor strategy to be a teacher's pet in a school 
filled with other boys trained in the art of excruciation. He learned to 
act the part of a poor student. This is similar how "I, Claudius" had to 
act the part of a fool to survive.

"I had lied often to Master Gurloes and Master Palaemon, to Master 
Malrubius while he still lived, to Drotte because he was captain, to 
Roche because he was older and stronger than I, and to Eata an the other 
smaller apprentices because I hoped to make them respect me."

Here's an example of how it worked. "Outside, feigning ignorance, I 
asked Master Palaemon who Vodalus of the wood was." Severian got a 
rebuke for listening to the words of a client, and another for keeping 
his hands in his pocket (a deliberate act to deflect the Master's 
anger). Just as he intended, he got Drotte to tell him about Vodalus 
without revealing that he already knew the name.

They say it's more difficult to lie than to tell the truth because a 
liar has more to remember. Severian wouldn't have a problem with that. 
Then also suggests that discrepancies should be harmonized where 
possible instead of treating them as signs of lies. Severian should be 
most consistent when he is lying. If this book was a rewrite from memory 
he got a second chance to fix any mistakes.

The hand-off of the gun from Vodalus to Hildegrin or Thea is easily 
reconciled. Hildegrin said he couldn't use it, so it was clearly with 
the approval of Vodalus that Thea took it next. Thus he "gave the pistol 
to his mistress" even though he handed it first to Hildegrin.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 06:45:44 +0000

>of mistakes and backtracks.

By "reconstructing", I can only conclude you are referring to the copy
Severian made from memory shortly after boarding the Ship.

[snip]
>he got a second chance to fix any mistakes.

Again, what do you mean by "rewrite" and "second chance"? His original
manuscript was written shortly before boarding the Ship and sent to Ultan.
Whichever version Wolfe "translated", we have no means of comparing the Ship
copy to the original. The events recounted in the manuscript were first
written down ten years after Sev became autarch. There was no running
account made over the years that he could redact at leisure. The copy seems
to have been written out only days or weeks after completing the original
manuscript.

>to his mistress" even though he handed it first to Hildegrin.

I made a longish post here years ago about mistakes and inconsistencies of
memory in NEW SUN. IIRC, I concluded that the mistake about the gun was
probably Wolfe's, not Sev's, because the second mention of the hand-off,
this time to Thea, is repeated by Wolfe in the appendix to CITADEL. (It is
possible that the first mention in SHADOW is a left-handed hint by Wolfe
that Sev's memory isn't entirely to be trusted, but the revelation would be
rather far from the source.)

Most of the mistakes of memory are about things that are not, in themselves,
worth lying about. It doesn't really matter whether the pouch Dorcas sewed
was made of doeskin or manskin, or if Roche or Drotte said they saw the
pikes on the second page of the story. Unless they are all mistakes by
Wolfe, the errors were put there by Wolfe to let the careful reader know
that Sev's memory isn't quite as ostentatiously accurate as Sev loudly
claims it to be.

Sev is an admitted liar, but his worst deceptions are his omissions.

-Roy

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 08:01:23 +0000

Roy C. Lackey wrote:
> pikes on the second page of the story.

> Sev is an admitted liar, but his worst deceptions are his omissions.

If you combine these concepts, the Roche or Drotte mistake could be a 
redaction error where for example a fourth boy's presence was elided by 
inconsistently assigning his dialogue to another, making it as 
lie-worthy as anything.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 05:35:58 +0000

> to have been written out only days or weeks after completing the original
Perhaps I am making an unjustified assumption, but I thought it was a 
given that the copy made on the time-traveling Ship was the only copy 
that Wolfe could have obtained and "translated." If the copy given to 
Ultan is the version we are reading, then my point is not valid. 
Severian could consult all the resources available to an Autarch to 
write the first one. If this is the second manuscript, it's too good in 
the level of detail and style to be the work of a person with an 
ordinary memory attempting to re-create the book they just wrote.

Even though it was written soon after the other one, it still gave 
Severian a second chance to notice "Hey, what I wrote here is 
inconsistent with what I wrote there."  The fact that it was rewritten 
within a short time makes the inconsistencies even more strange. His 
memory has to play tricks on him not only about the events themselves, 
but in his memory of writing about them.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 05:34:22 +0000

>ordinary memory attempting to re-create the book they just wrote.

For purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter which document Wolfe
translated. The text we have is all there is. The conceit is that, thanks to
Severian's vaunted memory, the copy he made is identical in content to the
original manuscript -- and we have no way of knowing otherwise.

>but in his memory of writing about them.

We are talking about inconsistencies within the same document, not comparing
documents. When Sev relates some incident in his document, then has occasion
later in the document to make reference to the same incident, and the two
accounts are inconsistent, then obviously at least one mistake has been
made. It doesn't really matter whether Hildegrin or Thea received the gun
from Vodalus; neither used it. The only question is whether Wolfe or Sev
made the mistake.

If Sev ever had occasion to notice that he had contradicted himself, then he
had the opportunity to correct his account by amending it, either by
changing the first mention to agree with the second, or the other way
around. And we would never know that he had made a mistake of memory. He
takes such pains to insist that his memory is perfect that he would never
knowingly demonstrate that it wasn't.

The doeskin/manskin pouch thing is not as easily dismissed as most of the
other mistakes. Doeskin and manskin have very different connotations. It is
almost impossible for me to believe that Wolfe made that mistake. It is
almost equally difficult for me to believe that dear Dorcas would sew a
pouch made from human skin to house the most celebrated religious icon on
the planet.

-Roy

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:02:22 +0000

> from Vodalus; neither used it. The only question is whether Wolfe or Sev
There in a line in Claw which helps clarify matters:
"But I can remember more than many would credit: the position of each 
object on a table I walked past when I was a child, and even that I have 
recalled some scene to mind previously, and how that remembered incident 
differed from the memory I have of it now."

Severian's memory is vivid and detailed to him, but not necessarily 
perfect. He also mentions weak judgement. Perhaps he records the 
memories as they occur to him at the time of writing, not judging 
between versions if the differences are trivial.
> knowingly demonstrate that it wasn't.
It may also be that the rewriting just used memories of the act of 
writing itself in order to re-create the book quickly. Sev may not have 
exercised additional editorial judgement in the process.

> pouch made from human skin to house the most celebrated religious icon on
The sheath of Terminus Est was manskin, which was an appropriate 
material for it. Probably Dorcas used doeskin and Sev's memories of the 
sheath got mixed in somewhere.

I found an additional reference to his student days: " It was my power 
of recollection that made me the favorite pupil of Master Palaemon." 
Going back to my theory, I think that this may have been true in the 
early days of working with Palaemon until Sev decided it was dangerous 
to show up the other students. Then he went into the act of having a 
poor memory.

The eidelon Malrubius said, "You were always the most careless of my 
boys." Sev at first pretended that he didn't remember studying the seven 
principles of governance, but when pressed he could name them. That also 
fits the poor-student-act theory.

---

From: Tony Ellis <tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 13:53:22 +0000

> pouch made from human skin to house the most celebrated religious icon on

For what it's worth, speaking as a copy editor I have absolutely no
problem believing Wolfe could have made that mistake. Writers make all
sorts of mistakes, and one I regularly see is the accidental
substitution of one word for another that apparently sparked some of
the same synapses in the author's brain.

---

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 22:35:27 +0000

On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:53:22 +1000 Tony Ellis 
<tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com> wrote:
>problem believing Wolfe could have made that mistake. Writers make 

>all

Also for what it's worth, recall the old boatman talking about the 
corpses submerged in the botanic gardens. He says the waters turn 
their skin to leather - not like a boot-heel, but like a lady's 
glove. Doeskin is/was I think a common material for gloves.

Probably doesn't mean anything, but maybe some context for an 
accidental substitution by Wolfe.

---

From: John Smith <jsmith2627 at att.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:11:05 +0000

It's interesting that the people of Urth find nothing
strange about using human skin as a fabric.   Does
this simply reflect the poverty of a society that is
running out of energy and resources?   Or is it more
of a comment on  the immorality of a society that
treats people as things?

--- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:

> >For what it's worth, speaking as a copy editor I
> have absolutely 
> >no
> >substitution of one word for another that
> apparently sparked some 
> >of
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---

From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:15:20 +0000

Why assume that the two things are unrelated? Form follows function;  
morality follows, in many respects, the practicalities of the  
situation, at least insofar as we're willing to define morality by  
consequences. Running out of resources could have directed the moral  
change.

Or it could just be for the shock value.

Lane

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:24:13 +0000

> of a comment on  the immorality of a society that

Oh, much more the second, I think.

Of course, it's not entirely unknown as a bookbinding even on plain  
old Earth.

Adam

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 02:09:21 +0000

> pouch made from human skin to house the most celebrated religious icon on

Why not? The greatest sacrifice to honor the greatest sacrifice.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 02:16:12 +0000

> of a comment on  the immorality of a society that

Mechanical limbs, animal parts on otherwise human bodies, human faces on 
animals, and relics of many epochs are everyday sights around Nesus and 
the Citadel; I doubt leather made from human skin turns many heads of 
any species any more.

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:59:53 +0000

>Why not? The greatest sacrifice to honor the greatest sacrifice.

There are two basic types of sacrifice -- those made voluntarily and those
in which the subject of the sacrifice is a reluctant participant. The
overwhelming majority of sacrifices involving human skin are of the second
kind.

Theories that equate the Conciliator in any meaningful way with Christianity
are fundamentally flawed. The latter is about the sacrifice of a god for
the world and the people in it. Severian the Conciliator sacrificed the
world and the people in it, while he got to survive, sitting on the beach in
Ushas, writing his second memoir while watching the girls go by and
otherwise enjoying the pampered pastimes of a petty god.

-Roy

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 07:43:36 +0000

> overwhelming majority of sacrifices involving human skin are of the second

So are the overwhelming majority of crucifixions, yet the cross is still 
  a positive symbol for Christians.

> are fundamentally flawed. 

I'm comparing them chiefly in the capacity of people to honor their 
highest beliefs in ways that don't necessarily scan for people of other 
beliefs.

> The latter is about the sacrifice of a god for

I don't know that Severian would necessarily be accepted as the Sleeper 
in that distant time; he would seem to have no Conciliator abilities 
left, and the ability to walk the Corridors of Time doesn't seem 
accurate enough to take advantage of impressing people in a particular 
place and time. He's a leftover vessel, empty of power except for his 
compelling narrative.