{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5043", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5043, "subject": "Sev the Murderer", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2008-06-05T10:52:56+00:00", "last": "2008-06-05T16:35:57+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20080605105256.DBBC811803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-05T10:52:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev the Murderer", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of the first things Sev does in BOTNS is kill an innocent man \nwho is fighting to prevent the violation of his dead, who presents \nno danger to him and with whom he has no quarrel. \n\n\"The second volunteer rasied his ax, then hesitated ... he circled \nto get a clear stroke ... The ax rose; I grasped the helve just \nbelow the head almost by reflex, and found myself at once in the \nstruggle, kicking, then striking. Quite suddenly it was over. The \nvolunteer whose bloodied weapon I held was dead.\"\n\nThe context makes it clear that the blood is the \"second \nvolunteer's\", and that Sev has killed him. Only later does Sev come \nout and say explicitly that he did so. Perhaps somewhere he \nexpresses some kind of remorse or shows some empathy, but I don't \nrecall it.\n\nSev does this to protect Vodalus, of whom he knows practically \nnothing except that he is a grave robber, apparently just because \nhe likes Vodalus' style: \" .. it was that willingness [to die] that \nkindled my admiration for him.\" And because he is attracted to \nThea.\n\nThe culminating point of Sev's sham \"trial\" in Yesod is when he \njoins battle on the side of the eidolons against the sailors \nfighting to prevent the destruction of Urth. (UOTN XXI) The \neidolons are weak at first, then appear to gain strength as he \nfocuses on them, and when he joins the battle, they triumph at \nonce. \n\nThere is a resonance here; once again he takes sides against the \nreal defenders in a cause he knows almost nothing about. He has no \nidea who the Hierogrammates and Hierarchs really are, or what their \nagenda is, or how it is to be accomplished. He had meant to \nquestion Apheta the night before, but was distracted by sex. At the \ncrucial point, he chooses figments and fantasies over the lives of \nreal people. \n\nThis, I believe, was the point of his \"trial\" - willingness to \ncountenance the death of his fellows in a cause which he does not \nunderstand, and which he makes no real effort to understand. But \nright at the start of his story he demonstrates the characteristics \nwhich led to his selection for the role. \n\n(Part of Gunnie's role in the story is I think to give us a \nviewpoint not infected with Sev's woolly mysticsm. She, like the \nother sailors, doesn't seem particularly impressed with the Hiero-\ndudes; should she be, after experiencing Tzadkiel's apparent \ninability to maintain good order even on the Ship? \n\nAt any rate, she calls Apheta a whore. (UOTNS XXIII)\n\nApheta: \"On Urth, women who look as I do, do no work at all - or so \nI have heard.\"\nGunnie: \"Some do.\")" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4847D605.1030902@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-05T12:03:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev the Murderer", "in_reply_to": "<20080605105256.DBBC811803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thlassocrat wrote:\nThe context makes it clear that the blood is the \"second \nvolunteer's\", and that Sev has killed him. Only later does Sev come \nout and say explicitly that he did so. Perhaps somewhere he \nexpresses some kind of remorse or shows some empathy, but I don't \nrecall it.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev was raised to kill without pity, so this is not surprising. Probably \nif he had not helped Voldalus that night he would have been mistaken for \na grave robber and killed himself, but I agree about the immorality of \nwhat he did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The culminating point of Sev's sham \"trial\" in Yesod is when he \njoins battle on the side of the eidolons against the sailors \nfighting to prevent the destruction of Urth. (UOTN XXI) The \neidolons are weak at first, then appear to gain strength as he \nfocuses on them, and when he joins the battle, they triumph at \nonce. \n\nThere is a resonance here; once again he takes sides against the \nreal defenders in a cause he knows almost nothing about...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The real defenders? Now you are arguing for a complete moral inversion \nof the entire series, and I can't agree. The Sun wasn't dying of natural \ncauses; someone put a black hole into it and shortened the life of the \nentire biosphere by millions of years. Was it worth catastrophic global \nwarming to put the Sun back to normal? The choice of futures was the \nworld of the Green Man or the world of Ragnorak. I believe Sev was on \nthe right side, however foolish his motives. He was a flawed hero, not a \nvillain." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080605123947.A54B211803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-05T12:39:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev the Murderer", "in_reply_to": "<4847D605.1030902@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:03:17 +1000 Dave Tallman \n wrote:\nThlassocrat wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The context makes it clear that the blood is the \"second \nvolunteer's\", and that Sev has killed him. Only later does Sev \ncome \nout and say explicitly that he did so. Perhaps somewhere he \nexpresses some kind of remorse or shows some empathy, but I \ndon't \nrecall it.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev was raised to kill without pity, so this is not surprising. \nProbably \nif he had not helped Voldalus that night he would have been \nmistaken for \na grave robber and killed himself, but I agree about the \nimmorality of \nwhat he did." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Sev was in any danger. The volunteers had seen him \nbefore, at the gate. If he had to intervene, it could have been on \ntheir side, and he could no doubt have killed Vodalus, given the \nposition. \n\nHis training was in judicial punishment and execution, not private \nmurder. What he did was certainly criminal, even in this benighted \nsociety." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The culminating point of Sev's sham \"trial\" in Yesod is when he \njoins battle on the side of the eidolons against the sailors \nfighting to prevent the destruction of Urth. (UOTN XXI) The \neidolons are weak at first, then appear to gain strength as he \nfocuses on them, and when he joins the battle, they triumph at \nonce. \n\nThere is a resonance here; once again he takes sides against the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "real defenders in a cause he knows almost nothing about...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The real defenders? Now you are arguing for a complete moral \ninversion \nof the entire series, and I can't agree. The Sun wasn't dying of \nnatural \ncauses; someone put a black hole into it and shortened the life of " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the \nentire biosphere by millions of years. Was it worth catastrophic \nglobal \nwarming to put the Sun back to normal? The choice of futures was \nthe \nworld of the Green Man or the world of Ragnorak. I believe Sev was " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on \nthe right side, however foolish his motives. He was a flawed hero, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "not a \nvillain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've argued at length previously for just that inversion. Was it \nworth killing almost everybody on Urth to restore the Sun, just one \nstar among many with human-populated worlds? If it was so necessary \nto restore it, could not humanity have been evacuated, as it was in \nMaster Ash's timeline? What exactly were the Hiero-dudes seeking to \naccomplish? We really don't know, beyond some vague puffy story \nabout repellant cycles of pain and evolution. Why assume that the \nHieo-dudes and their plans are *good* things? \n\nAnyway, the ovrwhelming majority of humans present in Yesod were in \nno doubt of what they thought about it. But their vote didn't \ncount. They had been tricked - told they were to be spectators, \ndragooned into being matyrs.\n\nJust on the topic of what exactly the Hiero-dudes goals are ... \nbecause Severian never really questions and examines them, we don't \nreally know. To become like the Hieros? But how, and anyway, where \nare those Hieros? \n\nI take as a hint this comment from Sev to Apheta in UOTNS XX: \"You \nHierarchs are magicians. You're more powerful than those I once \nmet, but magicians still.\" \n\nBefore he meets those magicians, he finds a mutilated cock on the \npath, a charm against the coming of the New Sun. Perhaps Sev \nhimself is a mutilated charm against the coming of Christ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<490280.70872.qm@web83727.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-06-05T16:35:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev the Murderer", "in_reply_to": "<20080605105256.DBBC811803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vodalus is like Robin Hood. He lives in the woods and\nbattles the evil king. At least this is what\nSeverian believes at the time. He has a romantic view\nof the outlaw-rebel, which explains why he kills a man\nto protect Vodalus.\n\nOf course, Vodalus is not really fighting for freedom\nand justice. But Sev only learns later what Vodalus\nreally stands for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nOne of the first things Sev does in BOTNS is kill an\ninnocent man \nwho is fighting to prevent the violation of his\ndead, who presents \nno danger to him and with whom he has no quarrel. \n\n\"The second volunteer rasied his ax, then hesitated\n... he circled \nto get a clear stroke ... The ax rose; I grasped the\nhelve just \nbelow the head almost by reflex, and found myself at\nonce in the \nstruggle, kicking, then striking. Quite suddenly it\nwas over. The \nvolunteer whose bloodied weapon I held was dead.\"\n\nThe context makes it clear that the blood is the\n\"second \nvolunteer's\", and that Sev has killed him. Only\nlater does Sev come \nout and say explicitly that he did so. Perhaps\nsomewhere he \nexpresses some kind of remorse or shows some\nempathy, but I don't \nrecall it.\n\nSev does this to protect Vodalus, of whom he knows\npractically \nnothing except that he is a grave robber, apparently\njust because \nhe likes Vodalus' style: \" .. it was that\nwillingness [to die] that \nkindled my admiration for him.\" And because he is\nattracted to \nThea.\n\nThe culminating point of Sev's sham \"trial\" in Yesod\nis when he \njoins battle on the side of the eidolons against the\nsailors \nfighting to prevent the destruction of Urth. (UOTN\nXXI) The \neidolons are weak at first, then appear to gain\nstrength as he \nfocuses on them, and when he joins the battle, they\ntriumph at \nonce. \n\nThere is a resonance here; once again he takes sides\nagainst the \nreal defenders in a cause he knows almost nothing\nabout. He has no \nidea who the Hierogrammates and Hierarchs really\nare, or what their \nagenda is, or how it is to be accomplished. He had\nmeant to \nquestion Apheta the night before, but was distracted\nby sex. At the \ncrucial point, he chooses figments and fantasies\nover the lives of \nreal people. \n\nThis, I believe, was the point of his \"trial\" -\nwillingness to \ncountenance the death of his fellows in a cause\nwhich he does not \nunderstand, and which he makes no real effort to\nunderstand. But \nright at the start of his story he demonstrates the\ncharacteristics \nwhich led to his selection for the role. \n\n(Part of Gunnie's role in the story is I think to\ngive us a \nviewpoint not infected with Sev's woolly mysticsm.\nShe, like the \nother sailors, doesn't seem particularly impressed\nwith the Hiero-\ndudes; should she be, after experiencing Tzadkiel's\napparent \ninability to maintain good order even on the Ship? \n\nAt any rate, she calls Apheta a whore. (UOTNS\nXXIII)\n\nApheta: \"On Urth, women who look as I do, do no work\nat all - or so \nI have heard.\"\nGunnie: \"Some do.\")\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }