Sev the Murderer
The Urth list — 4 messages, 3 voices, 05 Jun 2008
https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5043

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thalassocrat at nym.hush.com — 05 Jun 2008, 10:52

One of the first things Sev does in BOTNS is kill an innocent man 
who is fighting to prevent the violation of his dead, who presents 
no danger to him and with whom he has no quarrel. 

"The second volunteer rasied his ax, then hesitated ... he circled 
to get a clear stroke ... The ax rose; I grasped the helve just 
below the head almost by reflex, and found myself at once in the 
struggle, kicking, then striking. Quite suddenly it was over. The 
volunteer whose bloodied weapon I held was dead."

The context makes it clear that the blood is the "second 
volunteer's", and that Sev has killed him. Only later does Sev come 
out and say explicitly that he did so. Perhaps somewhere he 
expresses some kind of remorse or shows some empathy, but I don't 
recall it.

Sev does this to protect Vodalus, of whom he knows practically 
nothing except that he is a grave robber, apparently just because 
he likes Vodalus' style: " .. it was that willingness [to die] that 
kindled my admiration for him." And because he is attracted to 
Thea.

The culminating point of Sev's sham "trial" in Yesod is when he 
joins battle on the side of the eidolons against the sailors 
fighting to prevent the destruction of Urth. (UOTN XXI) The 
eidolons are weak at first, then appear to gain strength as he 
focuses on them, and when he joins the battle, they triumph at 
once. 

There is a resonance here; once again he takes sides against the 
real defenders in a cause he knows almost nothing about. He has no 
idea who the Hierogrammates and Hierarchs really are, or what their 
agenda is, or how it is to be accomplished. He had meant to 
question Apheta the night before, but was distracted by sex. At the 
crucial point, he chooses figments and fantasies over the lives of 
real people. 

This, I believe, was the point of his "trial" - willingness to 
countenance the death of his fellows in a cause which he does not 
understand, and which he makes no real effort to understand. But 
right at the start of his story he demonstrates the characteristics 
which led to his selection for the role. 

(Part of Gunnie's role in the story is I think to give us a 
viewpoint not infected with Sev's woolly mysticsm. She, like the 
other sailors, doesn't seem particularly impressed with the Hiero-
dudes; should she be, after experiencing Tzadkiel's apparent 
inability to maintain good order even on the Ship? 

At any rate, she calls Apheta a whore.  (UOTNS XXIII)

Apheta: "On Urth, women who look as I do, do no work at all - or so 
I have heard."
Gunnie: "Some do.")

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Dave Tallman — 05 Jun 2008, 12:03
  follows, by subject match thalassocrat at nym.hush.com

> Thlassocrat wrote:
> The context makes it clear that the blood is the "second 
> volunteer's", and that Sev has killed him. Only later does Sev come 
> out and say explicitly that he did so. Perhaps somewhere he 
> expresses some kind of remorse or shows some empathy, but I don't 
> recall it.
>   

Sev was raised to kill without pity, so this is not surprising. Probably 
if he had not helped Voldalus that night he would have been mistaken for 
a grave robber and killed himself, but I agree about the immorality of 
what he did.

> The culminating point of Sev's sham "trial" in Yesod is when he 
> joins battle on the side of the eidolons against the sailors 
> fighting to prevent the destruction of Urth. (UOTN XXI) The 
> eidolons are weak at first, then appear to gain strength as he 
> focuses on them, and when he joins the battle, they triumph at 
> once. 
> 
> There is a resonance here; once again he takes sides against the 
> real defenders in a cause he knows almost nothing about....

The real defenders? Now you are arguing for a complete moral inversion 
of the entire series, and I can't agree. The Sun wasn't dying of natural 
causes; someone put a black hole into it and shortened the life of the 
entire biosphere by millions of years. Was it worth catastrophic global 
warming to put the Sun back to normal? The choice of futures was the 
world of the Green Man or the world of Ragnorak. I believe Sev was on 
the right side, however foolish his motives. He was a flawed hero, not a 
villain.

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thalassocrat at nym.hush.com — 05 Jun 2008, 12:39
  follows, by subject match Dave Tallman

> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:03:17 +1000 Dave Tallman 
> <davetallman at msn.com> wrote:
> Thlassocrat wrote:

> > The context makes it clear that the blood is the "second 
> > volunteer's", and that Sev has killed him. Only later does Sev 
> > come 
> > out and say explicitly that he did so. Perhaps somewhere he 
> > expresses some kind of remorse or shows some empathy, but I 
> > don't 
> > recall it.
> >   

> Sev was raised to kill without pity, so this is not surprising. 
> Probably 
> if he had not helped Voldalus that night he would have been 
> mistaken for 
> a grave robber and killed himself, but I agree about the 
> immorality of 
> what he did.

I don't think Sev was in any danger. The volunteers had seen him 
before, at the gate. If he had to intervene, it could have been on 
their side, and he could no doubt have killed Vodalus, given the 
position. 

His training was in judicial punishment and execution, not private 
murder. What he did was certainly criminal, even in this benighted 
society.

> > The culminating point of Sev's sham "trial" in Yesod is when he 
> > joins battle on the side of the eidolons against the sailors 
> > fighting to prevent the destruction of Urth. (UOTN XXI) The 
> > eidolons are weak at first, then appear to gain strength as he 
> > focuses on them, and when he joins the battle, they triumph at 
> > once. 
> > 
> > There is a resonance here; once again he takes sides against the 

> > real defenders in a cause he knows almost nothing about....

> The real defenders? Now you are arguing for a complete moral 
> inversion 
> of the entire series, and I can't agree. The Sun wasn't dying of 
> natural 
> causes; someone put a black hole into it and shortened the life of 

> the 
> entire biosphere by millions of years. Was it worth catastrophic 
> global 
> warming to put the Sun back to normal? The choice of futures was 
> the 
> world of the Green Man or the world of Ragnorak. I believe Sev was 

> on 
> the right side, however foolish his motives. He was a flawed hero, 

> not a 
> villain.

I've argued at length previously for just that inversion. Was it 
worth killing almost everybody on Urth to restore the Sun, just one 
star among many with human-populated worlds? If it was so necessary 
to restore it, could not humanity have been evacuated, as it was in 
Master Ash's timeline? What exactly were the Hiero-dudes seeking to 
accomplish? We really don't know, beyond some vague puffy story 
about repellant cycles of pain and evolution. Why assume that the 
Hieo-dudes and their plans are *good* things? 

Anyway, the ovrwhelming majority of humans present in Yesod were in 
no doubt of what they thought about it. But their vote didn't 
count. They had been tricked - told they were to be spectators, 
dragooned into being matyrs.

Just on the topic of what exactly the Hiero-dudes goals are ... 
because Severian never really questions and examines them, we don't 
really know. To become like the Hieros? But how, and anyway, where 
are those Hieros? 

I take as a hint this comment from Sev to Apheta in UOTNS XX: "You 
Hierarchs are magicians. You're more powerful than those I once 
met, but magicians still." 

Before he meets those magicians, he finds a mutilated cock on the 
path, a charm against the coming of the New Sun. Perhaps Sev 
himself is a mutilated charm against the coming of Christ.

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John Smith — 05 Jun 2008, 16:35
  in reply to thalassocrat at nym.hush.com

Vodalus is like Robin Hood.  He lives in the woods and
battles the evil king.   At least this is what
Severian believes at the time.  He has a romantic view
of the outlaw-rebel, which explains why he kills a man
to protect Vodalus.

Of course, Vodalus is not really fighting for freedom
and justice.  But Sev only learns later what Vodalus
really stands for.

> --- thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:
> One of the first things Sev does in BOTNS is kill an
> innocent man 
> who is fighting to prevent the violation of his
> dead, who presents 
> no danger to him and with whom he has no quarrel. 
> 
> "The second volunteer rasied his ax, then hesitated
> ... he circled 
> to get a clear stroke ... The ax rose; I grasped the
> helve just 
> below the head almost by reflex, and found myself at
> once in the 
> struggle, kicking, then striking. Quite suddenly it
> was over. The 
> volunteer whose bloodied weapon I held was dead."
> 
> The context makes it clear that the blood is the
> "second 
> volunteer's", and that Sev has killed him. Only
> later does Sev come 
> out and say explicitly that he did so. Perhaps
> somewhere he 
> expresses some kind of remorse or shows some
> empathy, but I don't 
> recall it.
> 
> Sev does this to protect Vodalus, of whom he knows
> practically 
> nothing except that he is a grave robber, apparently
> just because 
> he likes Vodalus' style: " .. it was that
> willingness [to die] that 
> kindled my admiration for him." And because he is
> attracted to 
> Thea.
> 
> The culminating point of Sev's sham "trial" in Yesod
> is when he 
> joins battle on the side of the eidolons against the
> sailors 
> fighting to prevent the destruction of Urth. (UOTN
> XXI) The 
> eidolons are weak at first, then appear to gain
> strength as he 
> focuses on them, and when he joins the battle, they
> triumph at 
> once. 
> 
> There is a resonance here; once again he takes sides
> against the 
> real defenders in a cause he knows almost nothing
> about. He has no 
> idea who the Hierogrammates and Hierarchs really
> are, or what their 
> agenda is, or how it is to be accomplished. He had
> meant to 
> question Apheta the night before, but was distracted
> by sex. At the 
> crucial point, he chooses figments and fantasies
> over the lives of 
> real people. 
> 
> This, I believe, was the point of his "trial" -
> willingness to 
> countenance the death of his fellows in a cause
> which he does not 
> understand, and which he makes no real effort to
> understand. But 
> right at the start of his story he demonstrates the
> characteristics 
> which led to his selection for the role. 
> 
> (Part of Gunnie's role in the story is I think to
> give us a 
> viewpoint not infected with Sev's woolly mysticsm.
> She, like the 
> other sailors, doesn't seem particularly impressed
> with the Hiero-
> dudes; should she be, after experiencing Tzadkiel's
> apparent 
> inability to maintain good order even on the Ship? 
> 
> At any rate, she calls Apheta a whore.  (UOTNS
> XXIII)
> 
> Apheta: "On Urth, women who look as I do, do no work
> at all - or so 
> I have heard."
> Gunnie: "Some do.")
> 
> _______________________________________________

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