{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5044", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5044, "subject": "What's So Great About Ushas?", "messages": 321, "voices": 35, "first": "2008-06-05T16:41:39+00:00", "last": "2008-07-22T02:12:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-05T16:41:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the \"Sev the Murderer\" thread Dave Tallman notes that Severian is a flawed hero, \nnot a villain as almost everyone would agree. As Thalassocrat points out, \nalmost all humans would have been evacuated if Urth went to Ragnarok. Far more\npeople were killed in the creation of Ushas. True genocide. So why is Severian a hero \nand what is so great about Ushas? I think the answer is the disguised subtext of the \nseries.\n\nFor me, it is clear that Wolfe means to depict Urth as populated by a flawed\nrace of people. For the universes to have a better future, this flawed race needs\nto be wiped out, starting over from scratch. I interpret that these flaws were based\non human issues that were troubling Wolfe at the time of writing this series. Stuff \nlike a propensity for empire building, toleration of torture, the potential abuse of \ngenetic engineering and the potential for loss of personal identity associated with \ncommunism, cloning and artificial intelligence. Human carnivory also seems to \nbother Wolfe.\n\nBut why does Wolfe find genocide necessary to cure these ills? The sailors from the \nship were used to re-populate Ushas, I think.. They seem like pretty normal people \nwith human faults. And there are lots of pretty good people on Urth. Why were \nthe sailors considered so superior to the human beings on Urth? I think the \nanswer lies in quirks of Wolfe's religious philosophy.\n\nThe pre-Christian religious competitors to Judaism were populated with some pretty\nunpleasant characters: gods and monsters with superhuman powers but usually\ngoverned by the worst of human character flaws: domination, pride, anger, jealousy\nand lust. These gods often appeared as a family pantheon, mating incestuously with\neach other. Commonly they were shape shifters and some used this ability to take\nhuman form, mating and reproducing with humans beings creating lesser-powered \ndemi-gods and monsters.\n\nThe Judeo-Christian God is certainly superior, by our standards. He had some early \nanger and jealousy issues but He seemed to evolve past that. Being monotheistic he \ndidn't have the incest problem and His only human reproductive interaction was for\nthe purpose of human salvation not personal lust. But in the Judaic tradition, some \nof God's angels fell and became demons and reproduced with humans creating the \nNephilim giants. Also, Lilith was said to mate with Adam, spawning various demons, \nlamia, vampires, etc. The Biblical Flood might have served the purpose of \neliminating the nephilim, at the least.\n\nI see the genetic corruption of the human race on Urth by shape-shifting aliens as \none of the deepest underlying currents of BOTNS, the evidence mostly to be found \nin the dreams, stories and myths of the narrative. Eschatology and Genesis, with \nNod and Jahi and demons are the most explicit reference. Severian/Thecla's \npost-battle vision of a bull father and being born under the swan seem direct \nZeus-human mating references. Melito's and Foila's stories, Dorcas' veiled \nmemories and many other story elements add contributing evidence. \n\n\"Father\" Inire, a bent, highly creative, Hephaestus-like personage, takes many \nforms (I think) and has a suspicious interest in young girls. The Cumaean also \ntakes numerous forms, like Lilith and Hecate is associated with snakes and \nwitchcraft, and wants to usurp the Increatic power of resurrection from death. \nI think Wolfe sees these two characters as part of the problem on Urth, thus they \nare swept away from Ushas as are the other cacogens, megatherians, etc. \n(Why Juturna remains is an interesting question). \n\nI think Severian's incest problem goes significantly further than just with Dorcas. \nAs in certain ancient Greek legends, including Oedipus, he belongs to a cursed \nfamily and is a reflection of how the alien (pre-Christian gods) influence on \nhumanity has irreversibly corrupted even the best of humanity which remains on \nUrth. Like 5HOC, the central mystery here is one of origin/identity. And the answer, \nfor Severian, is a bit different but as spooky as for Number 5 and VRT.\n\nThe sailors from the ship apparently left earth before these corrupting influences \ninvaded Urth and that is what makes them good breeding stock for the new world. \nI think Severian, Thais, Odilo and Pega are meant to represent the only corrupted, \nUrthian humans to survive the flood. I think it is safe to assume these four did not \nproduce children and the new, pure humanity of Ushas was able to evolve into green\npeople and beyond.\n\n[I had always been mystified by the elusive sub-text of BOTNS. A couple years ago\nI immersed myself in this list and other resources to come to these conclusions. \nThanks to those patient souls here who indulged me with incisive feedback on ideas.]\n\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<185560.88842.qm@web83702.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-06-05T17:22:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This post has a lot of interesting ideas about\npre-Christian influences on BOTNS.\n\nHowever, I have to disagree with this statement:\n\n\"For me, it is clear that Wolfe means to depict Urth" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "as populated by a flawed\nrace of people. For the universes to have a better\nfuture, this flawed race needs\nto be wiped out, starting over from scratch. \"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wiping out races is the final solution of the Nazis\nand the solution (at times) of the Old Testament God. \n The Christian solution is mercy and redemption. \nThe fact that people are flawed is the reason mercy is\nneeded. I think (and hope) that this is Wolfe's\nview." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- b sharp wrote:\n\n\nIn the \"Sev the Murderer\" thread Dave Tallman notes\nthat Severian is a flawed hero, \nnot a villain as almost everyone would agree. As\nThalassocrat points out, \nalmost all humans would have been evacuated if Urth\nwent to Ragnarok. Far more\npeople were killed in the creation of Ushas. True\ngenocide. So why is Severian a hero \nand what is so great about Ushas? I think the\nanswer is the disguised subtext of the \nseries.\n\nFor me, it is clear that Wolfe means to depict Urth\nas populated by a flawed\nrace of people. For the universes to have a better\nfuture, this flawed race needs\nto be wiped out, starting over from scratch. I\ninterpret that these flaws were based\non human issues that were troubling Wolfe at the\ntime of writing this series. Stuff \nlike a propensity for empire building, toleration of\ntorture, the potential abuse of \ngenetic engineering and the potential for loss of\npersonal identity associated with \ncommunism, cloning and artificial intelligence. \nHuman carnivory also seems to \nbother Wolfe.\n\nBut why does Wolfe find genocide necessary to cure\nthese ills? The sailors from the \nship were used to re-populate Ushas, I think.. They\nseem like pretty normal people \nwith human faults. And there are lots of pretty\ngood people on Urth. Why were \nthe sailors considered so superior to the human\nbeings on Urth? I think the \nanswer lies in quirks of Wolfe's religious\nphilosophy.\n\nThe pre-Christian religious competitors to Judaism\nwere populated with some pretty\nunpleasant characters: gods and monsters with\nsuperhuman powers but usually\ngoverned by the worst of human character flaws:\ndomination, pride, anger, jealousy\nand lust. These gods often appeared as a family\npantheon, mating incestuously with\neach other. Commonly they were shape shifters and\nsome used this ability to take\nhuman form, mating and reproducing with humans\nbeings creating lesser-powered \ndemi-gods and monsters.\n\nThe Judeo-Christian God is certainly superior, by\nour standards. He had some early \nanger and jealousy issues but He seemed to evolve\npast that. Being monotheistic he \ndidn't have the incest problem and His only human\nreproductive interaction was for\nthe purpose of human salvation not personal lust. \nBut in the Judaic tradition, some \nof God's angels fell and became demons and\nreproduced with humans creating the \nNephilim giants. Also, Lilith was said to mate with\nAdam, spawning various demons, \nlamia, vampires, etc. The Biblical Flood might have\nserved the purpose of \neliminating the nephilim, at the least.\n\nI see the genetic corruption of the human race on\nUrth by shape-shifting aliens as \none of the deepest underlying currents of BOTNS, the\nevidence mostly to be found \nin the dreams, stories and myths of the narrative. \nEschatology and Genesis, with \nNod and Jahi and demons are the most explicit\nreference. Severian/Thecla's \npost-battle vision of a bull father and being born\nunder the swan seem direct \nZeus-human mating references. Melito's and Foila's\nstories, Dorcas' veiled \nmemories and many other story elements add\ncontributing evidence. \n\n\"Father\" Inire, a bent, highly creative,\nHephaestus-like personage, takes many \nforms (I think) and has a suspicious interest in\nyoung girls. The Cumaean also \ntakes numerous forms, like Lilith and Hecate is\nassociated with snakes and \nwitchcraft, and wants to usurp the Increatic power\nof resurrection from death. \nI think Wolfe sees these two characters as part of\nthe problem on Urth, thus they \nare swept away from Ushas as are the other cacogens,\nmegatherians, etc. \n(Why Juturna remains is an interesting question). \n\nI think Severian's incest problem goes significantly\nfurther than just with Dorcas. \nAs in certain ancient Greek legends, including\nOedipus, he belongs to a cursed \nfamily and is a reflection of how the alien\n(pre-Christian gods) influence on \nhumanity has irreversibly corrupted even the best of\nhumanity which remains on \nUrth. Like 5HOC, the central mystery here is one of\norigin/identity. And the answer, \nfor Severian, is a bit different but as spooky as\nfor Number 5 and VRT.\n\nThe sailors from the ship apparently left earth\nbefore these corrupting influences \ninvaded Urth and that is what makes them good\nbreeding stock for the new world. \nI think Severian, Thais, Odilo and Pega are meant to\nrepresent the only corrupted, \nUrthian humans to survive the flood. I think it is\nsafe to assume these four did not \nproduce children and the new, pure humanity of Ushas\nwas able to evolve into green\npeople and beyond.\n\n[I had always been mystified by the elusive sub-text\nof BOTNS. A couple years ago\nI immersed myself in this list and other resources\nto come to these conclusions. \nThanks to those patient souls here who indulged me\nwith incisive feedback on ideas.]\n\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40806051203ne80adf4j5286cf3e0a07faab@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-05T19:03:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<185560.88842.qm@web83702.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*thalassocrat wrote:\nI've argued at length previously for just that inversion. Was it\nworth killing almost everybody on Urth to restore the Sun, just one\nstar among many with human-populated worlds?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nFor me, it is clear that Wolfe means to depict Urth as populated by a flawed\nrace of people. For the universes to have a better future, this flawed race needs\nto be wiped out, starting over from scratch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Both of these moral arguments are missing something, in my view. They are\nonly concerned with what happens to the human race. Environmentalists call\nthis anthropocentrism, and they consider it a serious moral flaw. The whole\nUrth and its ecosystem was at stake, not just humanity. Typhon's empire\nstarted an interstellar war, and as a side effect the Sun was damaged. The\nwhole Urth would lose millions of years of life, for countless species and\nnew ones yet to evolve. Is it a good and just solution for the human race to\njet off into space and leave Urth to freeze? I don't think Wolfe would\nagree, based on his short stories like \"Beautyland.\" Shouldn't humanity pay\nsome price to put things right? (That's an argument that has some\napplication today, too).\n\nWhat's so great about Ushas? It might be awesome in the long run. When Sev\nasked to find the garden, the Autarch opened a way to the Garden (though he\nthought Sev wouldn't be permitted to enter, and he was right). It might be\nthe Edenic future of humanity in harmony with nature (as the Green Man also\nindicated)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA224920153E3AF@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2008-06-05T21:31:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40806051203ne80adf4j5286cf3e0a07faab@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of Dave Tallman\nSent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 1:03 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) What's So Great About Ushas? [mx][spf]\n\n\n\nthalassocrat wrote:\n\n\n\tI've argued at length previously for just that inversion. Was it\n\n\t\n\tworth killing almost everybody on Urth to restore the Sun, just\none \n\tstar among many with human-populated worlds?\n\n \nb sharp wrote: \n\n\n\tFor me, it is clear that Wolfe means to depict Urth as populated\nby a flawed\n\trace of people. For the universes to have a better future, this\nflawed race needs\n\tto be wiped out, starting over from scratch.\n\n \nBoth of these moral arguments are missing something, in my view. They\nare only concerned with what happens to the human race.\nEnvironmentalists call this anthropocentrism, and they consider it a\nserious moral flaw. The whole Urth and its ecosystem was at stake, not\njust humanity. Typhon's empire started an interstellar war, and as a\nside effect the Sun was damaged. The whole Urth would lose millions of\nyears of life, for countless species and new ones yet to evolve. Is it a\ngood and just solution for the human race to jet off into space and\nleave Urth to freeze? I don't think Wolfe would agree, based on his\nshort stories like \"Beautyland.\" Shouldn't humanity pay some price to\nput things right? (That's an argument that has some application today,\ntoo).\n\nWhat's so great about Ushas? It might be awesome in the long run. When\nSev asked to find the garden, the Autarch opened a way to the Garden\n(though he thought Sev wouldn't be permitted to enter, and he was\nright). It might be the Edenic future of humanity in harmony with nature\n(as the Green Man also indicated).\n\n\nI agree with what's said above here. I find the \"moral inversion\"\nargument unconvincing for two reasons. First, Urth of the New Sun has\nseveral characters say that the trial isn't fair and that what happens\nisn't strictly fair, and that there's no way it could be - it is a\nmatter of making is as close to fair as possible, with everyone\nrealizing that the coming of the New Sun won't be just. Even Severian\nseems to recongize this; he plays on his own identity as a torturer in\nthe fifth book several times. Second, I can't help but suspect that if\nthe plot of the books unfolded in such a way that Severian refused to\nbring the new sun, because it would involve wiping out so many people,\nwith the result that the sun died out, another sort of \"moral inversion\"\nargument would be made that Severian was being unjust to the people who\nwould die as a result of that; I can't help but wonder if complaints\nwould be registered regardless of what Severian did. \n\n-------------------------\nInvite the next generation of students to consider Briercrest College and Seminary. Visit www.briercrest.ca/refer. \n-------------------------\nThis e-mail may contain confidential and privileged proprietary material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive the information from the recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-06-05T23:21:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA224920153E3AF@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 5 Jun 2008, Eric Ortlund wrote:\nFrom: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net]\nOn Behalf Of Dave Tallman\nSent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 1:03 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) What's So Great About Ushas? [mx][spf]\n\n\n\nthalassocrat wrote:\n\n\nI've argued at length previously for just that inversion. Was it\nworth killing almost everybody on Urth to restore the Sun, just one\nstar among many with human-populated worlds?\n\n\nb sharp wrote:\n\n\nFor me, it is clear that Wolfe means to depict Urth as populated\nby a flawed race of people. For the universes to have a better future, \nthis flawed race needs to be wiped out, starting over from scratch.\n\nBoth of these moral arguments are missing something, in my view. They\nare only concerned with what happens to the human race.\n\nWhat's so great about Ushas? It might be awesome in the long run. When\nSev asked to find the garden, the Autarch opened a way to the Garden\n(though he thought Sev wouldn't be permitted to enter, and he was\nright). It might be the Edenic future of humanity in harmony with nature\n(as the Green Man also indicated).\n\nI agree with what's said above here. I find the \"moral inversion\"\nargument unconvincing for two reasons. First, Urth of the New Sun has" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These arguments all sound similar to traditional theological attacks which \ngive us theodicy ie how can a good God send a flood to drown everyone, \nearthquake to China etc; therefore the agent of these things is evil.\n\nSo, pestilences and disasters (as opposed to war) ultimately come \nfrom God in this best of all possible worlds, therefore the suffering they \nengender is not evil per se. [As a strong atheist, I don't necessarily \nagree with these statements, you understand, but I suspect Wolfe does in \nsome way].\n\nCheers, David." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9BFF0CA7-524B-41F0-9696-6F4D1599974A@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-05T23:53:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 5, 2008, at 6:21 PM, David Duffy wrote:\n\nSo, pestilences and disasters (as opposed to war) ultimately come \nfrom God in this best of all possible worlds, therefore the \nsuffering they engender is not evil per se. [As a strong atheist, I \ndon't necessarily agree with these statements, you understand, but I \nsuspect Wolfe does in some way]." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From what I can tell of Wolfe from his writings and interviews, he \ndoesn't think very highly of pacifism, and I suspect his God favors \njustice over mercy. His Redeemer may not. I think Wolfe may believe \nthat a good Flood to drown the unrighteous every so often isn't a bad \nidea.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-06T04:11:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<9BFF0CA7-524B-41F0-9696-6F4D1599974A@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my post I discuss something of an ethical stance which seems to be presented in a book by\nGene Wolfe. I certainly didn't mean to presume to say this reflects Gene Wolfe's personal \nphilosophy. It might, I suppose, but I consider that irrelevant. He is an author and we are \nreaders and my interpretations are meant to be literary not personal (for him or me).\n\nI'd like to consider a certain passage from Sword of the Lictor. While wandering in the mountains, \nSeverian seems to be pondering what a human utopian planet would be like and consders a place:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"in which all the people, knowing themselves descended from a single pair of colonists, treated \none another as brothers and sisters\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At first blush this statement seems to me to reek of potential racism. But perhaps it could be \nseen as a call to embrace the Adam and Eve story as a basis for human respect and caring. \nIt certainly foreshadows Ushas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"worlds where there was no currency but honor, so that everyone worked in order that he might\nbe entitled to associate himself with some man or woman who had saved the community\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dunno, sounds a bit like a \"Vote For John McCain!\" slogan. And might support the political/\nsocial philosophy that a vote for a war hero like McCain might entail." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"worlds in which the long war between mankind and the beasts was pursued no more\" with a\nsolution for the problem of how, \"people who would kill no sentient animal might be shod and fed\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems to tie into the Green Man and supports Dave Tallman's idea that Ushas is a place of \npeace and justice for the entire ecosystem, not just humanity.\n\nInteresting that Dave sees the hole in the sun as a mere side effect of Typhon's interstellar war. Others \nsee it as a deliberate hiero punishment for humanity, carrying with it the seed of salvation through the \nNew Sun.\n\nInteresting that John Smith sees genocide as a tactic reserved for Nazis and the Old Testament \n(Jewish) God. Interesting bedfellows to say the least.\n\nI like Eric Ortlund's observation that Severian is told he could view but not enter The Garden...I think\nthis ties in with the Robert, Marie and Isangoma scene with the reading about Mt. Nebo. Borsky thinks\nthat refers to Father Inire as a Moses figure, allowed to see but not enter the Promised Land. But\nperhaps Severian, in his less than conscious creation of Ushas but inability to participate in humanity's \nfuture, genetically, is a much better candidate as a Moses figure. Also, like Moses, Severian seems to be a \nconduit for God's power without really understanding, himself, how it works.\n\nI think Peter Wright, in Attending Daedalus, considers the angel-like hierogrammates to be evil, \nmanipulative bastards torturing the human race for their own selfish ends. But isn't Wright an\n atheist/socialist? \n\nIf Wolfe is a religious person of Christian persuasion, as he appears to be in interviews, I'd guess\n(if I must guess) that his moral intentions regarding the hieros are that human morality \ncannot be used to judge God and angels, only ourselves. But we must trust that the Divine Plan, \nno matter how terrible it may seem at a given instant in time will make things come out right in the\nend. Go through Hell to get to Heaven?\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8c79f$f4814860$e2d04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-06T06:38:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nBoth of these moral arguments are missing something, in my view. They are\nonly concerned with what happens to the human race. Environmentalists call\nthis anthropocentrism, and they consider it a serious moral flaw." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "**Moral** flaw? I almost choked on a mouthful of roast beef when I read\nthat! I've been a news junkie since at least the Cuban Missile Crisis, yet\nit somehow escaped my notice that \"Environmentalists\" had become the\narbiters of morality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The whole\nUrth and its ecosystem was at stake, not just humanity. Typhon's empire\nstarted an interstellar war," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It did? Citation, please." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and as a side effect the Sun was damaged. The\nwhole Urth would lose millions of years of life, for countless species and\nnew ones yet to evolve." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the upheaval of continents and a worldwide flood left all those innocent\nspecies unscathed? I wonder what Noah needed that Ark for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it a good and just solution for the human race to\njet off into space and leave Urth to freeze? I don't think Wolfe would\nagree, based on his short stories like \"Beautyland.\" Shouldn't humanity pay\nsome price to put things right? (That's an argument that has some\napplication today, too)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As Andrew (Thalassocrat) has already indicated, the human race had long ago\nspread (during the First Empire) all over the galaxy, and probably beyond.\nNo matter what happened to Urth, the bulk of humanity would be unaffected.\nIf humanity had to pay a price on Urth, that price was almost entirely\nsymbolic. The Hierogrammates, for all their power, could not overcome\nentropy. Humanity was spread too far and wide for every world to be\npunished.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080606075439.D77EC48002@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-06-06T07:54:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:11 06/06/2008, b sharp wrote:\nSeverian, in his less than conscious creation of Ushas but inability \nto participate in humanity's future, genetically, is a much better \ncandidate as a Moses figure. Also, like Moses, Severian seems to be \na conduit for God's power without really understanding, himself, how it works." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting suggestion! Moses was also an abandoned infant, a killer, \nand (in Jewish tradition) highly sexually active.\n\nI think this fits a lot better than the Father-Inire-as-Moses suggestion.\n\nMo\n\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki\nhttp://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8c807$48025da0$16cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-06T18:58:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080606075439.D77EC48002@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo Holkar quoted and wrote:\nAt 05:11 06/06/2008, b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian, in his less than conscious creation of Ushas but inability\nto participate in humanity's future, genetically, is a much better\ncandidate as a Moses figure. Also, like Moses, Severian seems to be\na conduit for God's power without really understanding, himself, how it\nworks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting suggestion! Moses was also an abandoned infant, a killer,\nand (in Jewish tradition) highly sexually active.\n\nI think this fits a lot better than the Father-Inire-as-Moses suggestion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian, unlike Moses, did get to the Promised Land, which rather spoils\nthe analogy. Whether he waded into the gene pool there or not is\nundetermined, I think.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3CF13204-5967-4314-9A63-A3D2D471F4E7@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-06T19:04:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8c807$48025da0$16cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 6, 2008, at 1:58 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nSeverian, unlike Moses, did get to the Promised Land, which rather \nspoils\nthe analogy. Whether he waded into the gene pool there or not is\nundetermined, I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Severian doesn't seem to *ever* keep it in his pants, as far as \nwe know, so we can assume that he was at least enthusiastically trying \nto splash about. As it were.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-06T19:09:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3CF13204-5967-4314-9A63-A3D2D471F4E7@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given Sev's... lack of fidelity to the Increate's honest truth... how \nmuch credence should we give to his stories of sexual profligacy?\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 6, 2008, at 2:04 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn Jun 6, 2008, at 1:58 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian, unlike Moses, did get to the Promised Land, which rather \nspoils\nthe analogy. Whether he waded into the gene pool there or not is\nundetermined, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Severian doesn't seem to *ever* keep it in his pants, as far \nas we know, so we can assume that he was at least enthusiastically \ntrying to splash about. As it were.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10806061225u5c0acb2al285b9bd8320de596@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-06T19:25:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nGiven Sev's... lack of fidelity to the Increate's honest truth... how much\ncredence should we give to his stories of sexual profligacy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if Sev were making up his sexual encounters, surely he would have said\nthat he slept with Agia? Plus Sev does mention some embarrassing aspects of\nhis sex life - like the way Valeria finds another man after Sev runs off to\nbring the New Sun.\n\n(Or perhaps he DID sleep with Agia, but didn't mention it because he didn't\nwant to portray himself as sleeping with an evil and treacherous woman? Then\nagain, he does admit he wanted her, and quite badly.)\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris Laybourn", "address": "laybournchris at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-06T22:11:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10806061225u5c0acb2al285b9bd8320de596@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just finished a first read of Urth of the New Sun so I'm really enjoying this chain. \n \nCan someone explain to me what happens in the chapter where Severian encounters Typhon back during his reign? Typhon wants Severian to demonstrate his powers somehow and he pulls a dirk or knife and stabs it into a table but then we move on in the story. I'm sure there was something implicit in the book but I missed it. Thanks" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4849FA05.3030404@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T03:01:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10806061225u5c0acb2al285b9bd8320de596@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Keeley wrote:\nOn Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Lane Haygood > wrote:\n\n Given Sev's... lack of fidelity to the Increate's honest truth...\n how much credence should we give to his stories of sexual profligacy?\n\n\nWell, if Sev were making up his sexual encounters, surely he would have \nsaid that he slept with Agia? Plus Sev does mention some embarrassing \naspects of his sex life - like the way Valeria finds another man after \nSev runs off to bring the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This doesn't strike me as embarassing, and Severian seems to get a bit \nof a vicarious thrill from imagining their coupling." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080607034107.3F9D411803E@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T03:41:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4849FA05.3030404@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:38:33 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nAs Andrew (Thalassocrat) has already indicated, the human race had " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "long ago\nspread (during the First Empire) all over the galaxy, and probably " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "beyond.\nNo matter what happened to Urth, the bulk of humanity would be \nunaffected.\nIf humanity had to pay a price on Urth, that price was almost \nentirely\nsymbolic. The Hierogrammates, for all their power, could not \novercome\nentropy. Humanity was spread too far and wide for every world to \nbe\npunished." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still don't get the destruction of Urth as a punishment. \nAccording to the Hiero-dude-ish propaganda, the punishment has \nalready happened - humanity beaten back down to a primitive state \nand barred from the worlds (at least on Urth), and (presumably) the \nsun deliberately wounded to keep Urth-humanity down. Sev is \nsupposed to be an \"epitome\" who may bring the punishment to an \n*end*. If he succeeds, a New Sun will come, and humanity will \nflourish once again, and be allowed back into space. \n\nThis propaganda runs in various forms all the way from the official \nNew Sun dogma of Sev's youth, through eidolon-Malrubius' \nrevelations to him, to the gates of Yesod.\n\nApheta to the sailors (UOTNS VI): \"You know that we have condemned \nthe peoples of Urth, and why. They now feel that they have earned \nour forgiveness, and the chance to resume the places they held of \nold ... And they have dispatched their Epitome to claim it for \nthem.\"\n\nEidolon-Malrubius (Citadel XXXI) questions Sev closely on whether \nhe would go to Yesod if he were to stand trial there, if gelding \nwere to be the price of failure, if it might not bring a New Sun \n... but he never mentions that the price of success will be the \ndeath of most humans (and most animals!) on Urth. \n\n\"If you pass - if *our race* is judged ready to reenter the wide \nseas of space - such a white fountain will be created in the heart \nof the sun.\" \n\nOfficially, the real situation is not revealed until Tzadkiel \ndelivers his judgement. Up until then: the New Sun is to bring a \nrebirth of Urth as Urth, not as Ushas.\n\nThe propaganda is, of course, a lie and deception. But at the same \ntime I see no evidence for \"punishment\" as the real intent. By \ntheir own story, the Hiero's intent is to foster the emergence of a \nrace cognate to the Hieros, and thereby a race cognate to \nthemselves. \n\nIf this is true, then somehow or other Sev + a small band of \nsurviving Urth-humans + a New Sun is necessary for their plans. \nHow, we don't know, but I suppose the easiest guess is that Sev's \ngenes are the key, and that he is indeed supposed to splash \nmightily around in a reduced gene pool. \n\nAnyway, I still don't see evidence of God's will in all of this." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080607034911.138C911803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T03:49:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 08:11:12 +1000 Chris Laybourn \n wrote:\nI just finished a first read of Urth of the New Sun so I'm really \nenjoying this chain. \n\nCan someone explain to me what happens in the chapter where \nSeverian encounters Typhon back during his reign? Typhon wants \nSeverian to demonstrate his powers somehow and he pulls a dirk or \nknife and stabs it into a table but then we move on in the story. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sure there was something implicit in the book but I missed it. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev asks Typhon if killing a man by merely striking the table would \nbe a good demonstration of his powers. Typhon says, \"Yep!\". Sev \npulls out his dagger and bangs it into the table.\n\nThe chiliarch has let Sev into the presence of Typhon with a \nconcealed weapon. Not good for the chiliarch! " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T04:15:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon", "in_reply_to": "<20080607034911.138C911803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chris, I think that scene can be attributed to Gene Wolfe playing with the reader's \nhopes and expectations a bit. When Severian and Typhon first met (in the future, in\nbook 3 of the series) Typhon is portrayed as a powerful, and perhaps the most \narrogant villain in all SF, showing hardly a hint of bluster or insecurity in an unswerving \nconfidence in his own superiority. Somehow Severian manages to best him using only \na bit of thinking and torturer's skill.\n\nIn their next meeting that you describe (in the past, in Book 5) Severian is possessed \nof awesome stellar powers and I know I wished, on first reading that scene, that Severian\ncould somehow humble this ultimate, galactic bully Typhon with a cosmic bolt or maybe \njust a medium sized earthquake...\n\nBut Severian doesn't have conscious control of his power and Wolfe only allows \nSeverian to eke out a petty victory over a lesser antagonist, through word play and guile.\nBy striking Typhon's table with a hidden knife he assures a death sentence for the chilliarch\nwho had physically abused him earlier, because the chilliarch was responsible for Typhon's\nsafety.\n\nIt is a well done scene because it had to play out that way. Typhon appears to recognize\nSeverian in their future meeting (though of course not vice versa). If Severian had blasted\nTyphon with cosmic power, their future conversation would have been quite different. And\nSeverian's later mercy to the chilliarch provides one of the strongest cornerstones for \nbuilding Severian's legend as The Conciliator." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T05:31:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080607034107.3F9D411803E@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thalassocrat I don't have strong opinions on the black hole in the sun. I've just seen the point \nargued in the past. Actually I find the whole hiero-human cognate race concept a bit squishy and\nhard to grasp. And Cyriaca's uncle's story? What the heck is going on there?\n\nAnyway, in regard to seeing the hand of God in this story, I feel I come by that honestly. Since \nI'm not religious myself I wasn't looking for it but managed to find it anyway. For me the most\ndirect, compelling evidence is Wolfe's system for naming things in this series (ignoring saints,\nfor now). I think Wolfe has been quoted as saying things are what they are named in this story.\n\nWhen he uses the word \"fusil\" he means a flint lock musket, the word's meaning. When he uses \nthe word \"destrier\" he means something very close to the definition, a fast war horse. \nBy this convention, when he uses the word \"Abaia\" I take it to mean as literally as possible to the \nearthly meaning of that word, it being: \"a huge, magical eel\". So when Wolfe uses the name \n\"Tzadkiel\" I take that as literally as possible just like his other references. Tzadkiel is, or very \nclosely resembles, the Judeo-Christian archangel of God's judgement. \n\nI find the hiero-cognate race story rather interesting in this perspective, especially with the Biblical\ndescription that humans are made in God's image. It would seem that in Wolfe's cosmos, angels\nhave their origins in humans and vice versa. This is the interaction between Briah and Yesod.\nI wonder, if Wolfe ever contemplated that hierogrammates might ascend to a higher level by \ninteracting with the universe that is at a higher level than Yesod. (I think he descibes a universe\nlower than Briah, Abbadon). Would Wollfe be so bold as to speculate on the origin of God?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002401c8c862$94b06ec0$f5cc4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-07T05:51:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew wote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eidolon-Malrubius (Citadel XXXI) questions Sev closely on whether\nhe would go to Yesod if he were to stand trial there, if gelding\nwere to be the price of failure, if it might not bring a New Sun\n... but he never mentions that the price of success will be the\ndeath of most humans (and most animals!) on Urth.\n\n\"If you pass - if *our race* is judged ready to reenter the wide\nseas of space - such a white fountain will be created in the heart\nof the sun.\"\n\nOfficially, the real situation is not revealed until Tzadkiel\ndelivers his judgement. Up until then: the New Sun is to bring a\nrebirth of Urth as Urth, not as Ushas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that the picture painted for Sev in NEW SUN isn't the same picture\npainted in URTH. Apparently almost everyone on Urth seemed to believe that\nwhen the New Sun came, all Urth's troubles would be over; the ice would\nretreat, the growing season be extended and who-knows-what-all. Life on Urth\nwould be rosy again, as when mankind first went out to seize dominion over\nthe galaxy, or at least as good as things were, in material terms, when\nTyphon ruled.\n\nWe all know Wolfe never planned to write a fifth book. When he was forced to\ndeal with the practical details of bringing the nebulous religious ideal\nbehind his original conception to the page, he may have had to change his\nmind about some things. But that's speculation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The propaganda is, of course, a lie and deception. But at the same\ntime I see no evidence for \"punishment\" as the real intent. By\ntheir own story, the Hiero's intent is to foster the emergence of a\nrace cognate to the Hieros, and thereby a race cognate to\nthemselves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's true. Whether you call it punishment, correction, justice or revenge,\nthe Hierogrammates were determined to do unto humans what the Hieros of\nanother universe had done unto them. As Sev put it:\"They bring us through\nthe pain we put them through.\" (URTH, XXII, 159) (Btw, the bit about entropy\nand humans being \"sown over tens of thousands of worlds\" is at XIX, 135.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If this is true, then somehow or other Sev + a small band of\nsurviving Urth-humans + a New Sun is necessary for their plans.\nHow, we don't know, but I suppose the easiest guess is that Sev's\ngenes are the key, and that he is indeed supposed to splash\nmightily around in a reduced gene pool." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't forget the mind-wiped losing sailors from the Ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, I still don't see evidence of God's will in all of this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As Tzadkiel said at the trial, \"The death agonies of the world you know will\nbe offered to the Increate.\" (XXI, 153) (And I've been down this road more\nthan once!)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080607064915.154A911803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T06:49:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<002401c8c862$94b06ec0$f5cc4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 15:51:45 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\n\nI agree that the picture painted for Sev in NEW SUN isn't the same " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "picture\npainted in URTH. Apparently almost everyone on Urth seemed to \nbelieve that\nwhen the New Sun came, all Urth's troubles would be over; the ice \nwould\nretreat, the growing season be extended and who-knows-what-all. \nLife on Urth\nwould be rosy again, as when mankind first went out to seize \ndominion over\nthe galaxy, or at least as good as things were, in material terms, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "when\nTyphon ruled.\n\nWe all know Wolfe never planned to write a fifth book. When he was " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "forced to\ndeal with the practical details of bringing the nebulous religious " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "ideal\nbehind his original conception to the page, he may have had to \nchange his\nmind about some things. But that's speculation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe may well have decided to go down a different route with UOTNS \nthan he did with BOTNS. But a couple of points ... \n\nThe picture painted by eidolon-Malrubius *may* have been a lie in \nthe original BOTNS. Talos' play of course paints a different \npicture, one more like the UOTNS outcome. At the end of BOTNS we \nare left with two different scenarios (even if we are perhaps more \ninclined not to believe Talos). \n\nFor UOTNS + BOTNS, the eidolon-Malrubius picture is definitely a \nlie. It's not just a matter of Wolfe writing a different story in \nUOTNS, and the two not fitting very well together. By having Apheta \npaint the same (lying) picture to the sailors before landing on \nYesod, he makes the stories part of the same narrative, at least in \nthis respect. He's ruled out one of the scenarios for BOTNS.\n\nIn the UOTNS + BOTNS story, whether or not eidolon-Malrubius, the \nHierodules, Apheta all know that the picture is a lie - I don't \nknow. I believe the Hierodules were probably dupes, and if that's \nthe case, eidolon-Malrubius was probably one, too. Apheta could \nhave been a dupe also, at the time she spoke to the sailors. But \nTzadkiel surely was never a dupe, and he must surely have been an \nactive promoter of the lie, if not its source.\n\nAre we then to believe that such a liar is anything like an angel, \nas commonly understood? Surely only if he is a fallen angel, and if \nhe must be considered an angel at all (which I don't believe), I \nwould say his real name is probably not \"Tzadkiel\" ...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As Tzadkiel said at the trial, \"The death agonies of the world you " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "know will\nbe offered to the Increate.\" (XXI, 153) (And I've been down this \nroad more\nthan once!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep, but it's still fun :) Against all the other evidence, I can't \ntake this one statement as evidence that Tz is doing God's will. \nMaybe he thinks he is; maybe he's making a vicious joke. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<484A31F2.8090200@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T07:00:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080607064915.154A911803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n**Moral** flaw? I almost choked on a mouthful of roast beef when I read\nthat! I've been a news junkie since at least the Cuban Missile Crisis, yet\nit somehow escaped my notice that \"Environmentalists\" had become the\narbiters of morality.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry I mentioned environmentalism -- I thought their term \n\"anthropocentrism\" shed an interesting light on the debate. My point \nremains whether you believe in environmentalism or not: with the New \nSun, the solar system remained capable of sustaining life for millions \nof years more. With no New Sun, the solar system would have been a dead \nzone in a very short time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/ The whole\n/>/Urth and its ecosystem was at stake, not just humanity. Typhon's empire\n/>/started an interstellar war,\n/\nIt did? Citation, please." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I have told you that I was autarch on many worlds. I shall be autarch \nagain, and this time on many more,\" suggests an expanding empire outside \nour own solar system. Empires normally expand by war. The story of the \nboastful cock also suggests humanity fought other powers in space." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And the upheaval of continents and a worldwide flood left all those innocent\nspecies unscathed? I wonder what Noah needed that Ark for.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, obviously many species and habitats were destroyed. But Ushas \nremained a place where life and evolution was possible. In Ragnorak, the \nwhole solar system would soon be devoid of life without any hope of \nrecovery.\n\nNote that the Ragnorak way wasn't human-casualty-free either:\nI asked if everyone would escape.\n\"No, not everyone. Some would not go, some could not be found. No home \ncould be found for others.\"\n\nGiven a habitable Ushas, there was no need for a Noah's Ark this time. \nTime travel and mirrors could bring people, animals, and plants from the \npast and other planets. There's a hint of this when the old Autarch said \n\"Many will seek to flee by that road (the Mirror Book) if the pelagic \nargosy sights land.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As Andrew (Thalassocrat) has already indicated, the human race had long ago\nspread (during the First Empire) all over the galaxy, and probably beyond.\nNo matter what happened to Urth, the bulk of humanity would be unaffected.\nIf humanity had to pay a price on Urth, that price was almost entirely\nsymbolic. The Hierogrammates, for all their power, could not overcome\nentropy. Humanity was spread too far and wide for every world to be\npunished.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant \"pay the price\" in the sense of making a sacrifice rather than \ntaking a punishment. To me, it is worth the short-term cost in lives to \npreserve the biosphere.\n\n//Andrew (Thalassocrat) wrote://" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, I still don't see evidence of God's will in all of this.\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's Sev's ability to raise the dead, which is beyond the technology \nof even Tzadkiel. \"Why couldn't Tzadkiel have called me back as I called \nback Zama?\" which caused Famulimus to kiss the floor before his feet. It \nlooks to me like Sev was on the side of the angels (real ones) in the end." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c8c86c$7c2853e0$e5ce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-07T07:02:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<484A31F2.8090200@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew wote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eidolon-Malrubius (Citadel XXXI) questions Sev closely on whether\nhe would go to Yesod if he were to stand trial there, if gelding\nwere to be the price of failure, if it might not bring a New Sun\n... but he never mentions that the price of success will be the\ndeath of most humans (and most animals!) on Urth.\n\n\"If you pass - if *our race* is judged ready to reenter the wide\nseas of space - such a white fountain will be created in the heart\nof the sun.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Looking at that quote again just now, it occurs to me that it offers support\nto my earlier speculation. If the white fountain had actually been created\n*in* the heart of the old sun, rather than travelling for millennia from\nsome unspecified place *to* the sun, it would not have passed near Urth to\nget there. If its mass had never come nearer Urth than the sun, would Urth\nhave been spared the violent upheavals that occasioned its destruction?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<484A35B2.50509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T07:16:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<002401c8c862$94b06ec0$f5cc4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that the picture painted for Sev in NEW SUN isn't the same picture\npainted in URTH. Apparently almost everyone on Urth seemed to believe that\nwhen the New Sun came, all Urth's troubles would be over; the ice would\nretreat, the growing season be extended and who-knows-what-all. Life on Urth\nwould be rosy again, as when mankind first went out to seize dominion over\nthe galaxy, or at least as good as things were, in material terms, when\nTyphon ruled.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The teachings of the Conciliator didn't paint a rosy picture at all:\n\nDeclan wished to know how Urth would fare when the New Sun came; and I, \nunderstanding little more than he did himself, drew upon Dr. Talos's \nplay, never thinking that in a time yet to come Dr. Talos's play would \nbe drawn from my words.\n\nEarlier:\nI thought of Dr. Talos's play, in which the ground shakes and Jahi says: \n\"The end of Urth, you fool. Go ahead and spear her. It's the end for you \nanyway.\"\n\nIf the majority of his followers forgot that and turned it into a rosy \npromise of utopia that wasn't the Conciliator's fault." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8c87c$a8a75e60$19d24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-07T08:58:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<484A35B2.50509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\n/ The whole\n/>/Urth and its ecosystem was at stake, not just humanity. Typhon's\nempire\n/>/started an interstellar war,\n/\nIt did? Citation, please." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I have told you that I was autarch on many worlds. I shall be autarch\nagain, and this time on many more,\" suggests an expanding empire outside\nour own solar system. Empires normally expand by war." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He certainly had ambitions; but he died and his dreams of empire died with\nhim. I still see no evidence that Typhon was waging an interstellar war,\nstill less that Urth's sun was damaged in consequence of waging it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As Andrew (Thalassocrat) has already indicated, the human race had long\nago\nspread (during the First Empire) all over the galaxy, and probably\nbeyond.\nNo matter what happened to Urth, the bulk of humanity would be\nunaffected.\nIf humanity had to pay a price on Urth, that price was almost entirely\nsymbolic. The Hierogrammates, for all their power, could not overcome\nentropy. Humanity was spread too far and wide for every world to be\npunished." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I meant \"pay the price\" in the sense of making a sacrifice rather than\ntaking a punishment. To me, it is worth the short-term cost in lives to\npreserve the biosphere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's easy to say when you're not the one drowning in the flood. The\nmillions of people who did drown were not making any sort of sacrifice. They\nweren't even consulted. That was my point earlier about the difference\nbetween making a voluntary sacrifice and being the unwilling *victim* of\none. The people on Urth had done nothing to wound the sun; they had no part\nin Empire; no part in the cruel fashioning of the Hierogrammates in another\nuniverse. But they were punished just the same, punished to death.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<484A8D63.7010409@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T13:30:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8c87c$a8a75e60$19d24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Robert C. Lackey wrote:\nThat's easy to say when you're not the one drowning in the flood. The\nmillions of people who did drown were not making any sort of sacrifice. They\nweren't even consulted. That was my point earlier about the difference\nbetween making a voluntary sacrifice and being the unwilling *victim* of\none. The people on Urth had done nothing to wound the sun; they had no part\nin Empire; no part in the cruel fashioning of the Hierogrammates in another\nuniverse. But they were punished just the same, punished to death.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's look at the alternative scenario again. Urth gets colder and \ncolder for thousands of years more. Millions die because can't find \nfood, from exposure, or from warring over scarce resources. Finally the \npopulation is reduced enough that the Heiros can offer an evacuation and \nmany take them up on it. Many still die because they can't be found or \nthere is no room for them. Some get to die voluntarily because they \nwon't leave. Finally, all of Urth's ecosystem dies forever.\n\nThe Heiros attempt to give the many who will die from the New Sun some \nrepresentation with a trial by combat between Sev and the sailors. I see \nyou have already argued about trials by combat in the Knight series, so \nI won't argue that was a just proceeding (the Heiros admit it wasn't, too).\n\nIn the end, most of us don't get a choice of when and how we die. The \nsituation of Urth was a choice between bad alternatives. I can see \nenough positives in the choice that was taken that I can't buy the moral \ninversion argument. But you may see it differently." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080607135136.71B8A11803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T13:51:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<484A8D63.7010409@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:16:02 +1000 Dave Tallman \n wrote:\n\nThe teachings of the Conciliator didn't paint a rosy picture at \nall:\n\nDeclan wished to know how Urth would fare when the New Sun came; \nand I, \nunderstanding little more than he did himself, drew upon Dr. \nTalos's \nplay, never thinking that in a time yet to come Dr. Talos's play \nwould \nbe drawn from my words.\n\nEarlier:\nI thought of Dr. Talos's play, in which the ground shakes and Jahi " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "says: \n\"The end of Urth, you fool. Go ahead and spear her. It's the end \nfor you \nanyway.\"\n\nIf the majority of his followers forgot that and turned it into a \nrosy \npromise of utopia that wasn't the Conciliator's fault." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That doesn't really have anything to do with my point, which is \njust that in the combined BOTNS + UOTNS narrative, eidolon-\nMalrubius and Apheta both lied and/or acted to deceive concering \nthe effects and the purpose of the New Sun. (The deception seems to \nhave been part of a long-running program, because the old Autarch \nand presumably his predecessors had been deceived also.)\n\nI also don't think it has much to do with Roy's point, which \nconcerned the possible discontinuity between BOTNS and UOTNS." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080607140737.064A111803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T14:07:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080607135136.71B8A11803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 23:30:11 +1000 Dave Tallman \n wrote:\n\nLet's look at the alternative scenario again. Urth gets colder and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "colder for thousands of years more. Millions die because can't \nfind \nfood, from exposure, or from warring over scarce resources. \nFinally the \npopulation is reduced enough that the Heiros can offer an \nevacuation and \nmany take them up on it. Many still die because they can't be \nfound or \nthere is no room for them. Some get to die voluntarily because \nthey \nwon't leave. Finally, all of Urth's ecosystem dies forever.\n\nThe Heiros attempt to give the many who will die from the New Sun \nsome \nrepresentation with a trial by combat between Sev and the sailors. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see \nyou have already argued about trials by combat in the Knight \nseries, so \nI won't argue that was a just proceeding (the Heiros admit it \nwasn't, too).\n\nIn the end, most of us don't get a choice of when and how we die. \nThe \nsituation of Urth was a choice between bad alternatives. I can see " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "enough positives in the choice that was taken that I can't buy the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "moral \ninversion argument. But you may see it differently." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is just wildly implausible that the Hierogrammates could not \nhave at least warned the people of Urth what was coming, even if \nthe Apheta and her fellow trogladyte wasp-people/larvae/bureaucrats \ncouldn't make the numbers stack up for a real rescue effort. \n\nInstead, they lied about it.\n\nTake away the unsupported assumption that the Hierogrammates are \nexecuting the will of God. Then the only plausible conclusion IMO \nis that they wanted most of the people on Urth to die.\n\nFurther: as far as I know, there is no hint in the narrative is \nthere any hint that the intended purpose of the New Sun is to \nprolong the survival of the biosphere. The only stated purpose is \nto (somehow) promote the rise of a new generation of Hieros. We are \ntold that the whole Hieros caused millenia of pain and suffering. \nFor what good? Just to keep the cycle going? \n\nIf you want to tot up the utiilitarian P&L, you need to expense for \nthat cycle as well." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080607142820.14B8011803E@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T14:28:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080607140737.064A111803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:02:38 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\n\nLooking at that quote again just now, it occurs to me that it \noffers support\nto my earlier speculation. If the white fountain had actually been " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "created\n*in* the heart of the old sun, rather than travelling for \nmillennia from\nsome unspecified place *to* the sun, it would not have passed near " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Urth to\nget there. If its mass had never come nearer Urth than the sun, \nwould Urth\nhave been spared the violent upheavals that occasioned its \ndestruction?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As it turned out in UOTNS, I don't think there were any violent \nupheavals? Baldanders speaks of gravity waves which he can detect, \nand which may be enough to tinkle the bells in Valeria's audience \nhall, but that seems to be about it. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<484B209D.6080609@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T23:58:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080607142820.14B8011803E@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\n\nOn Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:02:38 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Looking at that quote again just now, it occurs to me that it \noffers support\nto my earlier speculation. If the white fountain had actually been " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "created\n*in* the heart of the old sun, rather than travelling for \nmillennia from\nsome unspecified place *to* the sun, it would not have passed near " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Urth to\nget there. If its mass had never come nearer Urth than the sun, \nwould Urth\nhave been spared the violent upheavals that occasioned its \ndestruction?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see the narrative presenting \"appears in the sun\" as an \nalternative possibility to \"travels to the sun\". It could be that the \nfountain-like flux of energy will only turn on full blast once the \narriving object enters the sun, and before then it is only figuratively \nthe White Fountain, but isn't the celestial object that Severian draws \nhis his power already visible and remarked upon during the first four books?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As it turned out in UOTNS, I don't think there were any violent \nupheavals? Baldanders speaks of gravity waves which he can detect, \nand which may be enough to tinkle the bells in Valeria's audience \nhall, but that seems to be about it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Other than the flooding that submerges Nessus, the Citadel, the House \nAbsolute, and all land features previously within sight of the area?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080608004326.2381E11803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-08T00:43:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<484B209D.6080609@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 09:58:21 +1000 Jeff Wilson \nwrote:\n\nAs it turned out in UOTNS, I don't think there were any violent \nupheavals? Baldanders speaks of gravity waves which he can \ndetect, \nand which may be enough to tinkle the bells in Valeria's \naudience \nhall, but that seems to be about it. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Other than the flooding that submerges Nessus, the Citadel, the \nHouse \nAbsolute, and all land features previously within sight of the \narea?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I meant earthquakes and such, not flooding, which I assumed \nwas caused by the New Sun melting the ice. Roy was speculating \nwhether a White Fountain created inside the sun would have been \nless destructive than the tidal forces or whatever of one whizing \npast Urth on its way to the sun.\n\nBut looking back at Baldanders' speech to Valeria, I think I was \nwrong: he speaks of these forces warming the \"dead heart\" of Urth & \nimplies that volcanic activity etc will ensure. So my original \ncomment was probably wrong." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001e01c8c920$04324940$86cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-08T04:27:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080608004326.2381E11803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nSorry, I meant earthquakes and such, not flooding, which I assumed \nwas caused by the New Sun melting the ice. Roy was speculating \nwhether a White Fountain created inside the sun would have been \nless destructive than the tidal forces or whatever of one whizing \npast Urth on its way to the sun.\n\nBut looking back at Baldanders' speech to Valeria, I think I was \nwrong: he speaks of these forces warming the \"dead heart\" of Urth & \nimplies that volcanic activity etc will ensure. So my original \ncomment was probably wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's the quote:\n\"It has arrived at last, madame. The force that made\nyour bells sound has warmed the cold heart of Urth once\nmore. Now they toll the death of continents.\" (URTH, XLII, 300)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003901c8c921$01b063e0$86cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-08T04:34:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<001e01c8c920$04324940$86cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nThe Heiros attempt to give the many who will die from the New Sun some\nrepresentation with a trial by combat between Sev and the sailors. I see\nyou have already argued about trials by combat in the Knight series, so\nI won't argue that was a just proceeding (the Heiros admit it wasn't, too)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean Hierogrammates, not Hieros, who were a race of beings cognate to\nthe humans of Briah and who fashioned the Hierogrammates in another\nuniverse, since collapsed. That's why the Hierogrammates were messing with\nUrth. Since the humans of Urth's First Empire had not become the Hieros of\nBriah, and since Urth's resources were largely gone after Typhon's time,\nobviously something had to change if the Hierogrammates were to have any\nhope of repeating the cycle in Briah. The only way they had of accomplishing\nthat was apparently to start over. So they arranged for Urth to be destroyed\nand reborn as Ushas.\n\nAs has been said and the text affirms, Urth's survival was not necessary for\nhuman survival. Urth's only real value was emotional or spiritual, because\nit was the ancestral home of the species, and by extension the ancestral\nhome, potentially, of the Hieros who might eventually produce the\nHierogrammtes; or so they hoped. Whether or not what they did had the\nblessing of the Increate is another argument.\n\nApheta said:\n\"You know that we have condemned the peoples of\nUrth, and why. They now feel they have earned our\nforgiveness, and the chance to resume the places they held\nof old--\" (URTH, XVI, 112-13)\n\nNo one believes that the black hole in the sun was due to natural causes. No\none argues that the black hole was there before Typhon's time. That's why\nthe first ruler to go to Yesod to win a New Sun was his successor, Ymar.\nThere was no need for anyone to make the trip to Yesod in hopes of fixing\nwhat hadn't been broken before Typhon's time. The entire purpose of a\nrepresentative of Urth going to Yesod was to bring a cure for the damaged\nand dying sun. The cure was a white hole, aka white fountain, that became\nalmost synonymous with a religious figure, known both as the New Sun and the\nConciliator. The reason Severian was sent back to Urth in Typhon's time was\nto establish the Conciliator legend, which he did. That all adds up to this:\nThe condemnation Apheta spoke of was directly connected to Urth's dying sun,\nnot some incident or nebulous amalgam of transgressions committed by the\npeople of Urth before Typhon's era.\n\nIf the Hierogrammates caused the black hole in the sun, as has been argued\nbefore, then they are directly responsible for the destruction of Urth's\nbiosphere that would have resulted from the ice-future. Ushas avoided the\nice-future, all right. Do they get a pat on the back for fixing a problem\nthey created? Not from me.\n\nIf Typhon somehow caused the black hole in the sun and the Hierogrammates\ntook it upon themselves to \"condemn\" the peoples of Urth for *his*\ntransgression, then the result, for Urth, is the same; destruction of the\nworld and the death of the blameless by way of a white hole. It's the\nwife-beater defense writ large: \"Now look what you made me do.\" If the\nHierogrammates acted at the behest of the Increate, then it can and will be\nwritten of by the curious logic of the religious minded as justifiable, and\nthere is no point in pursuing that argument. If the Hierogrammates acted\nsolely out of self-interest, then the argument changes to -- where do they\nget the moral authority? If they got it from the Increate; case closed. But\nif they are self-anointed free agents?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the end, most of us don't get a choice of when and how we die. The\nsituation of Urth was a choice between bad alternatives. I can see\nenough positives in the choice that was taken that I can't buy the moral\ninversion argument. But you may see it differently." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I do.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005001c8c922$c49613e0$86cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-08T04:47:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<003901c8c921$01b063e0$86cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nwritten of by the curious logic of the religious minded as justifiable, and" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant \"written off\".\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8c938$9dc5da00$abd04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-08T07:23:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<005001c8c922$c49613e0$86cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a follow-up on what I said before.\n\nThere is no doubt that the black hole came to be in the sun during Typhon's\nera. At issue is whether he or the Hierogrammates was directly to blame for\nit. I've addressed the Hierogrammate side, somewhat. There is no direct\nevidence in the Urth Cycle to pin it on Typhon, but that doesn't mean he\ndidn't cause it. Still, Apheta's statement gives pause:\n\n\"You know that we have condemned the peoples of\nUrth, and why. They now feel they have earned our\nforgiveness, and the chance to resume the places they held\nof old--\" (URTH, XVI, 112-13)\n\nWhat does she mean by \"condemned\"? If Typhon did cause the black hole,\nwhether accidentally or purposefully, then the Ragnarok-future can be laid\nat his feet and a rational defense of the Urth-to-Ushas catastrophic\ntransition can be made, even if I don't agree with it. But she said \"we\"\n\"condemned\". Naughty Typhon might have supplied the \"why\" of it, but it was\nthe Hierogrammates and their minions, the \"we\", who did the condemning of\nUrth's peoples.\n\nHad Typhon been directly responsible for the black hole, she might have said\nsomething like, \"You Urth people screwed up and now you are suffering for\nit, and it's only going to get worse for you as time goes on. But because we\nare such nice guys we are going to give you a chance to fix your sun. The\nfix will be quite painful, but we offer you the opportunity. All you have to\ndo is jump through a few hoops for us. Take it or leave it.\" But she said\nsomething very different.\n\nThe only way to negate the condemnation was for a representative of Urth's\npeoples to \"earn\" the \"forgiveness\" of the Hierogrammates. By \"earn\" she\nmeant the Epitome's sham trial/examination. The \"forgiveness\" came in the\nform of the awarding of a white hole to cancel out the black hole in Urth's\nsun.\n\nThat leaves no choice but to absolve Typhon of responsibility for the black\nhole and place it squarely on the Hierogrammates, with or without the\nIncreate's blessing.\n\nThe question then becomes: *Why* did the Hierogrammates condemn Urth's\npeoples during Typhon's era?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<484B982B.8050703@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-08T08:28:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8c938$9dc5da00$abd04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThat leaves no choice but to absolve Typhon of responsibility for the black\nhole and place it squarely on the Hierogrammates, with or without the\nIncreate's blessing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your reasoning here is almost air-tight, except that\n1) time travel makes all the time-conditional predicates suspect.\n2) a very common Wolfe theme is an evil person's misdeed furthering a \nhigher power's plan for the greater good, without the person being any \nless evil or the higher power any less good.\n\nThis means that the black hole can be the fault of Typhon *and* it can \nbe part of a righteous condemnation for other past or future misdeeds, \nat least in the the author's opinion." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<484B9B0B.6030307@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-08T08:40:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8c938$9dc5da00$abd04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThat leaves no choice but to absolve Typhon of responsibility for the black\nhole and place it squarely on the Hierogrammates, with or without the\nIncreate's blessing.\n\nThe question then becomes: *Why* did the Hierogrammates condemn Urth's\npeoples during Typhon's era?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you present a compelling case that the Hierogrammates are \nresponsible for the black hole. The reasons are not spelled out in \ndetail, but we do have this: \"I tried to tell them how the Hierodules \nfeared us because we had spread through the worlds in the ancient times \nof Urth's glory, extinguishing many other races and bringing our cruelty \nand wars everywhere.\"\n\nSev could only have learned this from conversations on the Ship, so it's \na one-sided presentation, but I'll take it as true that humans committed \nmultiple genocides against intelligent races. They may not have all \nhappened in the reign of Typhon, but Typhon was carrying on the the same \nempire and intent on further genocide.\n\nPlacing the black hole makes little sense as a pure act of war. It was \nslow-acting, allowing plenty of time for evacuation for a space-faring \npeople, and it only touched one of many worlds humanity owned. I see it \nmore as a shot across the bow, telling Typhon, \"Look what we can do. \nYou'd better back off.\" The ones who did it probably didn't anticipate \nthat millions would remain in jeopardy for centuries." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080608102433.6898911803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-08T10:24:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<484B9B0B.6030307@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 17:23:53 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\n\nThe question then becomes: *Why* did the Hierogrammates condemn \nUrth's\npeoples during Typhon's era?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My reading: because it would lead in the future to the conclusion \nactually reached at the end of UOTNS. \n\nThat is: Sev + a small band of Urth humans (but not too small: I \nsuppose the mind-wiped sailors are there to make the gene pool \nviable while at the same time small enough for Sev's genes to \nquickly percolate through the whole race) + a viable planet.\n\nFor this, they need an Urth humanity too weak to avoid genocide; \nand the mythos of the New Sun to produce a Sev willing to \nparticipate in the genocide; whatever line of descent in the \ninterim required to produce a Sev with Sev's genes/powers/whatever; \nand a revitalised sun. They use admirable economy of action in \nachieving all of these rnd-points.\n\n[Digression: I still think that the wounding of the sun might in \nfact have happened back in Apu Panchu's day. It takes millions of \nyears for photons to travel form the core of the sun to the \nsurface. Wound the core, and perhaps the effects will only be \napparent on the timescales required for this. For the story, I \nthink this would be pretty neat thematically: eg the \nHierogrammate's plans unfolding over practically *all* of human \nhistory. But anyway ...]\n\nWhy did the Hierogrammates want this conclusion? As b_sharp says, \nthe whole story about co-evolution is kind of squidgy. Why do the \nHierogrammates care about recreating the Hieros? They don't need \nthem to recreate the Hierogrammates, obviously! Do they just want \nto inflict the pain of some kind of forced evolution? Why would \nthey do that? I can believe in the desire for revenge-at-a-remove, \na little, but why with the goal of creating a superior race? \n\n(Given that the Hiero-dudes lie, of course I discount anything they \nhave to say about this, if it violates basic plausibility.)\n\nFinding a better answer is obviously a matter for speulation. So, I \nspeculate ...\n\nIn UOTNS XIX Apheta gives us a few crumbs of information about the \nHieros and their relationship to the Hierogrammates. \n\n\"You say they [the Hieros] desired companions. How could they shape \ncompanions for themselves, who were themselves ever reaching higher \nand higher? ..... [We have] the appearance of your own race, the \nrace that our parents, the Hierogrammates, first set forth to \nfollow.\"\n\nThere is no evident reason why she should be lying in this \ninstance, so I accept it (provisionally!). \n\nEvidently, the Hierogrammates followed after the Hieros in the \nlatters' quest \"higher and higher\". I think this brought them to \nYesod, only to find the Hieros had already departed for some higher \nsphere. Now they want to recreate a race of Hieros, but this time \nunder their control. When the new Hieros find the way beyond Yesod, \nthe Hierogrammates will be riding with them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From this, I think further speculation follows quite easily, about \nwhy Sev, the progenitor of the new line of Hieros, should \nrecapitulate events from the life of Jesus." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Chris Laybourn", "address": "laybournchris at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-08T23:25:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's decision to write \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "<20080608102433.6898911803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Someone touched on this in an earlier email but I'm new and trying to fill in a lot of blanks.\n \nIt was mentioned that Wolfe did not intend to write \"Urth\" when he wrote Book of the New Sun. Why then did he write it? Too much pressure from the publisher to add a coda to the popular series?\n \nIf it was not in his original plans, do we know from interviews or elsewhere how much of the details of Urth of the New Sun were etched out during the writing of Book of the New Sun? Had he even conceived the flood, Tzadkiel, Yesod, etc... " } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10806081815k738a1d54r9bc5b59eabd800c7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-09T01:15:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's decision to write \"Urth\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is something of a recurring topic in the archives. You might want to\nlook there, but I'm not sure if there's really a consensus on Wolfe's\nthoughts while writing Urth.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002201c8c9d7$fb4ae400$d5ce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-09T02:24:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080608102433.6898911803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\n2) a very common Wolfe theme is an evil person's misdeed furthering a\nhigher power's plan for the greater good, without the person being any\nless evil or the higher power any less good." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No argument." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This means that the black hole can be the fault of Typhon *and* it can\nbe part of a righteous condemnation for other past or future misdeeds,\nat least in the the author's opinion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I understand what you are saying, and it's quite true that Wolfe has made\ncharacters express exactly that school of thought. The problem with the\n\"everything that happens is part of God's Grand Design even if the actors\ndon't know it and think otherwise\" philosophy is that it cuts off all\nreasoned argument, period. I don't want to get into a debate about freewill\nand/or predestination or predetermination or whatever.\n\nGetting back to Apheta's statement; if her \"we\" includes the Increate, then\nthere is no more I can say. But if it doesn't, and unless one is willing to\ngrant to a superior power the inherent right to impose its will on a lesser\npower, then the Hierogrammates' motives become more than suspect. Unless\nMight makes Right, they be taken for bad guys.\n\nYou can spin the Ushas future into as pretty a picture as you care to\nimagine and say that everything will work out for the best in the best of\nall possible worlds, but the ends still don't justify the means -- unless\nthe Increate had a hand in it. Even if the Hierogrammates only *believed*\nthey were doing the will of the Increate, that doesn't excuse their actions.\nHistory books and modern newspapers are littered with the dead who died\nbecause someone believed they were doing what God wanted them to do.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c8c9e7$6c2a50c0$73d24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-09T04:15:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<002201c8c9d7$fb4ae400$d5ce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\n[Digression: I still think that the wounding of the sun might in\nfact have happened back in Apu Panchu's day. It takes millions of\nyears for photons to travel form the core of the sun to the\nsurface. Wound the core, and perhaps the effects will only be\napparent on the timescales required for this. For the story, I\nthink this would be pretty neat thematically: eg the\nHierogrammate's plans unfolding over practically *all* of human\nhistory. But anyway ...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Against this are Typhon's comments about his astronomers being wrong in\ntheir predictions about the rate of change in the sun's output. Contrary to\ntheir predictions, it had declined by a small but detectable amount in just\na \"few years\", followed by crop failures, famine and riots. So Typhon had\n*some* reason to be keeping an eye on the sun even before effects of the\nchange became apparent. The change seems to have happened on his watch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why did the Hierogrammates want this conclusion? As b_sharp says,\nthe whole story about co-evolution is kind of squidgy. Why do the\nHierogrammates care about recreating the Hieros? They don't need\nthem to recreate the Hierogrammates, obviously!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't make much sense to me, either. There is that bit about some small\nimprovement being made with each cycle of the universes, but I don't know\nwhat the end result is supposed to be, unless it is some form of Nearer My\nGod to Thee -- either to become powerful enough to challenge God, or to\n*become* God. Sort of along the lines of what Silk(?) said about someone who\nis playing a role becoming that which he pretends to be. Ala Quetzal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Evidently, the Hierogrammates followed after the Hieros in the\nlatters' quest \"higher and higher\". I think this brought them to\nYesod, only to find the Hieros had already departed for some higher\nsphere. Now they want to recreate a race of Hieros, but this time\nunder their control. When the new Hieros find the way beyond Yesod,\nthe Hierogrammates will be riding with them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe cleverly makes Apheta say that of the *works* of the Hieros, only the\nHierogrammates remain. What does that really say about the Hieros? Did they\ndie off when their universe collapsed or did they escape like the\nHierogrammates? If they are not on Yesod, where are they if they still\nexist? If they are on some higher plane than Yesod, shouldn't they be even\nmore powerful than their \"creations\", be in a position to thwart unwanted\nfollowers?\n\nNote how that bit about the Hieros fashioning the Hierogrammates to be their\n\"companions\" sounds a lot like the popular perception of God and the angels.\nOr the Seven Worlds cosmology in TWK, and how some have suggested that its\nMost High God is the Demiurge.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<484CB059.1040907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-09T04:23:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<002201c8c9d7$fb4ae400$d5ce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nYou can spin the Ushas future into as pretty a picture as you care to\nimagine and say that everything will work out for the best in the best of\nall possible worlds, but the ends still don't justify the means -- unless\nthe Increate had a hand in it. Even if the Hierogrammates only *believed*\nthey were doing the will of the Increate, that doesn't excuse their actions.\nHistory books and modern newspapers are littered with the dead who died\nbecause someone believed they were doing what God wanted them to do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How can we objectively distinguish between the two cases? Otherwise, \nyou're merely substituting your judgment for theirs in determining if \nthe Increate \"really\" wants them to do the deed." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13617591-D43D-4BCF-BF01-4C7853D65B13@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-09T04:36:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<484CB059.1040907@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe that's the point. No matter how much ends-based reasoning we \nengage in, none of it is ever sufficient to create something truly \nmoral, because what is moral must be judged by the propriety of the \nactions in themselves, and not by their consequences.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 8, 2008, at 11:23 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nRoy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You can spin the Ushas future into as pretty a picture as you care to\nimagine and say that everything will work out for the best in the \nbest of\nall possible worlds, but the ends still don't justify the means -- \nunless\nthe Increate had a hand in it. Even if the Hierogrammates only \n*believed*\nthey were doing the will of the Increate, that doesn't excuse their \nactions.\nHistory books and modern newspapers are littered with the dead who \ndied\nbecause someone believed they were doing what God wanted them to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How can we objectively distinguish between the two cases? Otherwise, \nyou're merely substituting your judgment for theirs in determining \nif the Increate \"really\" wants them to do the deed.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8ca08$d8defa60$d6cc4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-09T08:14:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<13617591-D43D-4BCF-BF01-4C7853D65B13@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nYou can spin the Ushas future into as pretty a picture as you care to\nimagine and say that everything will work out for the best in the best of\nall possible worlds, but the ends still don't justify the means -- unless\nthe Increate had a hand in it. Even if the Hierogrammates only *believed*\nthey were doing the will of the Increate, that doesn't excuse their\nactions.\nHistory books and modern newspapers are littered with the dead who died\nbecause someone believed they were doing what God wanted them to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How can we objectively distinguish between the two cases? Otherwise,\nyou're merely substituting your judgment for theirs in determining if\nthe Increate \"really\" wants them to do the deed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My judgment has no bearing on what the Increate may have wanted them to do.\nI don't know what or even if the Increate wanted them to do anything. Either\nthey were acting on orders from the Increate or they weren't. If they were,\ncase closed. If they only believed they were, they were deluded.\n\nIn the case of Silk's \"enlightenment\", it is reasonably clear that the\nreader is intended to understand that it was a genuine communication from\nthe Outsider, not just a \"cerebral incident\" as Dr. Crane would have it. The\nHierogrammates' intercourse with the Increate, if there is any, is far from\nclear.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<484CE8D8.4070206@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-09T08:24:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080608102433.6898911803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nMy reading: because it would lead in the future to the conclusion \nactually reached at the end of UOTNS. \n\nThat is: Sev + a small band of Urth humans (but not too small: I \nsuppose the mind-wiped sailors are there to make the gene pool \nviable while at the same time small enough for Sev's genes to \nquickly percolate through the whole race) + a viable planet.\n\nFor this, they need an Urth humanity too weak to avoid genocide; \nand the mythos of the New Sun to produce a Sev willing to \nparticipate in the genocide; whatever line of descent in the \ninterim required to produce a Sev with Sev's genes/powers/whatever; \nand a revitalised sun. They use admirable economy of action in \nachieving all of these rnd-points.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have two issues with this idea; one is practical and the other \nartistic. On the practical side, the Sev who brings about the New Sun is \nan aquastor. The aquastor Malrubius acts as a mouthpiece for the \nHierogrammates. If all they wanted was a puppet with the right genetics, \nthen permitting Sev his adventures was a waste of time.\n\nThe artistic issue is that a heroic story has been converted into a \nhorror story. In this reading, evil triumphs. Had Sev failed to bring \nthe New Sun (if that were even permitted by these all-powerful \npuppeteers) then Urth humans would have been just as much at their mercy \nafter the Ragnorak evacuation. The whole epic becomes pointless,\n\nRoy seems to be theorizing that Wolfe started with a heroic story and \nthen converted it to a horror story when his original happy ending \nwouldn't work. I disagree with this; there was ample foreshadowing that \nthe New Sun would have calamitous side-effects (Talos' play, the \nstatement by the Autarch that many would seek to flee, and the dead \nrooster on the road). But I think the intention was for the reader to \nfind a mixture of hope and sadness in the ending. Whether the reader \ndoes or not depends on the assumptions and attitudes one brings to the book." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080609085225.56C0F11803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-09T08:52:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<484CE8D8.4070206@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:15:11 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\nAndrew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[Digression: I still think that the wounding of the sun might in\nfact have happened back in Apu Panchu's day. It takes millions of\nyears for photons to travel form the core of the sun to the\nsurface. Wound the core, and perhaps the effects will only be\napparent on the timescales required for this. For the story, I\nthink this would be pretty neat thematically: eg the\nHierogrammate's plans unfolding over practically *all* of human\nhistory. But anyway ...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Against this are Typhon's comments about his astronomers being \nwrong in\ntheir predictions about the rate of change in the sun's output. \nContrary to\ntheir predictions, it had declined by a small but detectable \namount in just\na \"few years\", followed by crop failures, famine and riots. So \nTyphon had\n*some* reason to be keeping an eye on the sun even before effects \nof the\nchange became apparent. The change seems to have happened on his \nwatch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But this is consistent with my story. Only in Typhon's time does \nthe reduction in photon flow reach the surface of the sun; before \nthat (maybe!) nobody has any cause to think there is anything \namiss. It's a new phenomenon; his astronomers came up with the \nwrong explanation & so their prognosis was wrong. \n\nI don't think it's a point that can be definitively settled either \nway. But given the lack of any other explanation in the narrative, \nit just feels right to me that the reason the Ship was close enough \nto the sun to cause an eclipse in Apu Panchau's time was because \nthe Hiero-dudes were inserting a black sun. What else was it doing \nthere? And to me it's just neat to have the dying of the old sun \ncommence with the first appearance of the New. \n\nBut I don't think it's essential to understanding the main story \nline." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Evidently, the Hierogrammates followed after the Hieros in the\nlatters' quest \"higher and higher\". I think this brought them to\nYesod, only to find the Hieros had already departed for some \nhigher\nsphere. Now they want to recreate a race of Hieros, but this time\nunder their control. When the new Hieros find the way beyond \nYesod,\nthe Hierogrammates will be riding with them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe cleverly makes Apheta say that of the *works* of the Hieros, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "only the\nHierogrammates remain. What does that really say about the Hieros? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did they\ndie off when their universe collapsed or did they escape like the\nHierogrammates? If they are not on Yesod, where are they if they \nstill\nexist? If they are on some higher plane than Yesod, shouldn't they " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "be even\nmore powerful than their \"creations\", be in a position to thwart \nunwanted\nfollowers?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We can only speculate & make up stories about this, of course. \n\nI suppose the Hierogrammates are in the position of any other group \nintent on storming heaven, in Wolfe's other work (eg, in TWK) & \nelsewhere. \n\nMy story goes that the Hieros were taken up to some kind of really-\ntruly heaven by the action of divine grace or whatever. The \nHierogrammates completely misunderstand what this involved, and \nthink it's just another step beyond Yesod, one to be climbed or \nforced from below. They see a Jesus figure as being important to \nthis, and attempt to create one. Or something like that. We know \nthey'll fail, but they don't.\n\nAnyway, I think it's fun to muse about variations on a Paradise \nLost kind of theme to fill in blanks here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Note how that bit about the Hieros fashioning the Hierogrammates \nto be their\n\"companions\" sounds a lot like the popular perception of God and \nthe angels.\nOr the Seven Worlds cosmology in TWK, and how some have suggested \nthat its\nMost High God is the Demiurge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But note that Apheta says in effect that the Hieros did *not* \nfashion the Hierogrammates to be companions. \"How could they shape \ncompanions for themselves, who were themselves ever reaching higher \n\nand higher?\" I don't think they were angels, even to the Hieros. At \nmost, senior white collar workers at some stage in the evolution of \na Hiero-hierarchy (as their name would indicate)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<004501c8ca10$2c2d1a60$d6cc4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-09T09:06:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080609085225.56C0F11803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nRoy seems to be theorizing that Wolfe started with a heroic story and\nthen converted it to a horror story when his original happy ending\nwouldn't work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose one might draw that conclusion from what I have said in this\nlatest round of an old argument, but that's not my position. In past\ndiscussions I argued that the Hierogrammates *were* operating on orders from\nOn High because, much as you just said, and though my perspective is\ndifferent from yours, I don't think Wolfe would have written an epic \"horror\nstory\", Peter Wright's views not withstanding.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080609093605.73B4311803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-09T09:36:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<004501c8ca10$2c2d1a60$d6cc4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 18:24:56 +1000 Dave Tallman \n wrote:\nAndrew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My reading: because it would lead in the future to the \nconclusion \nactually reached at the end of UOTNS. \n\nThat is: Sev + a small band of Urth humans (but not too small: I " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "suppose the mind-wiped sailors are there to make the gene pool \nviable while at the same time small enough for Sev's genes to \nquickly percolate through the whole race) + a viable planet.\n\nFor this, they need an Urth humanity too weak to avoid genocide; " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and the mythos of the New Sun to produce a Sev willing to \nparticipate in the genocide; whatever line of descent in the \ninterim required to produce a Sev with Sev's \ngenes/powers/whatever; \nand a revitalised sun. They use admirable economy of action in \nachieving all of these rnd-points.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have two issues with this idea; one is practical and the other \nartistic. On the practical side, the Sev who brings about the New \nSun is \nan aquastor. The aquastor Malrubius acts as a mouthpiece for the \nHierogrammates. If all they wanted was a puppet with the right \ngenetics, \nthen permitting Sev his adventures was a waste of time.\n\nThe artistic issue is that a heroic story has been converted into \na \nhorror story. In this reading, evil triumphs. Had Sev failed to \nbring \nthe New Sun (if that were even permitted by these all-powerful \npuppeteers) then Urth humans would have been just as much at their " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mercy \nafter the Ragnorak evacuation. The whole epic becomes pointless," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the Hierogrammates were all-powerful puppeteers then it would \nindeed be boring and pointless, and I have never sugegsted they \nwere, for this reason, and also because everything in the text \nsuggests that they are not. \n\nThey don't need just his genes. They need him to do certain things \nof his own volition, perhaps because only he can do them, perhaps \nbecause the \"Epitome's\" volition is crucial. And it seems very \nclear to me that in UOTNS things are balanced on the knife-edge for \nthe Hiero-dudes. If once Sev can catch his breath and start \nactually *thinking* and *questioning*, their plans may come \nunstuck. \n\nSo they bewilder him on Yesod; use sex to stop his questioning \nthere, and once again to stop him thinking when he's back on the \nShip; race him through his sham \"mission\" in Typhon's time; and \nbring him back to his own era when it's too late to stop anything. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From fake trial to destruction of Urth, Sev's subjective time \nelapsed appears to be about a week. He is not a quick thinker." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The artistic objection is the most powerful, but in the end I just \nhave to go with what I can make sense of. This is a dark story; \ngenocide, and future of pain and suffering throughout the galaxies. \nBut I think it all gets turned around in SS and LS, as I've argued \nelsewhere.\n\nThe point about Urth people still being vulnerable to the \nHierogrammates in a different future is fairly irrelevant. If the \nHieros wanted just to kill lots of humans they could do so whenever \nthey chose. The genocide on Urth was for a purpose (ie to cut down \nthe gene pool, or so I believe) - not just for random nastiness. \n\nIn a different future, Urth is never going to be the center of some \nnew gimcrack interstellar empire. It's just going to die, slowly, \nor so we must assume. But all the other human worlds continue on, \nand Apheta makes it clear that they are too numerous and scattered \nfor the not-all-powerful Hierogrammates to do much about them. \n\nWhat would a different future achieve? First, no sudden death to \nthe people of Urth. Second, no new race of Hieros spreading \nmillenia of pain and suffering spreading through the galaxies. \n\n(Clearly, the Urth itself must be important for the Hiero-dudes' \nplans. Somebody says somewhere in BOTNS that different continents \nhave diffrent templates which impsoe themselves on their \npopulations; and I suppose in this story that the same goes for \nplanets. Before long Urth will be unihabitable. Probably Sev \nrepresents the Hiero-dudes' last shot at getting the new Hieros \nstarted.)\n\nAnd if my speculation about the Hiero-dudes' agenda is correct, a \ndifferent future means that their plans to storm heaven are foiled, \nat least for now. But presumably those plans are doomed anyway." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080610024816.GA24836@craft>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-10T02:48:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c8c9e7$6c2a50c0$73d24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2008.06.08 23:15:11 -0500, \"Roy C. Lackey\" scribbled 2.7K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[Digression: I still think that the wounding of the sun might in\nfact have happened back in Apu Panchu's day. It takes millions of\nyears for photons to travel form the core of the sun to the\nsurface. Wound the core, and perhaps the effects will only be\napparent on the timescales required for this. For the story, I\nthink this would be pretty neat thematically: eg the\nHierogrammate's plans unfolding over practically *all* of human\nhistory. But anyway ...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Against this are Typhon's comments about his astronomers being wrong in\ntheir predictions about the rate of change in the sun's output. Contrary to\ntheir predictions, it had declined by a small but detectable amount in just\na \"few years\", followed by crop failures, famine and riots. So Typhon had\n*some* reason to be keeping an eye on the sun even before effects of the\nchange became apparent. The change seems to have happened on his watch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure this is useful to know. Of course he has reason to keep an eye on the Sun, but that tells us nothing. After all, *we* [modern-day humanity in general] would definitely notice a decline in luminosity in a few years - we keep a very close eye on the Sun for all sorts of reasons, none of which are because we rule an evil empire or anything." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nPershing osco TACSAT SIN MI-17 DEVGRP Whitewater imagery lock PCMT" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8cab7$8642a680$d6cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-10T05:04:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080610024816.GA24836@craft>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gwern Branwen quoted and wrote:\nAgainst this are Typhon's comments about his astronomers being wrong in\ntheir predictions about the rate of change in the sun's output. Contrary\nto\ntheir predictions, it had declined by a small but detectable amount in\njust\na \"few years\", followed by crop failures, famine and riots. So Typhon had\n*some* reason to be keeping an eye on the sun even before effects of the\nchange became apparent. The change seems to have happened on his watch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "-Roy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure this is useful to know. Of course he has reason to keep an eye\non the Sun, but that tells us nothing. After all, *we* [modern-day humanity\nin general] would definitely notice a decline in luminosity in a few years -\nwe keep a very close eye on the Sun for all sorts of reasons, none of which\nare because we rule an evil empire or anything.<<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe I didn't convey the sense of it clearly enough. In context, it is\napparent that something unusual had happened to the sun *before* the\nastronomers made there predictions as to what the effects of the change\nwould be, a change that they didn't think would be noticed in a human\nlifetime. Here is the quote.\n\n\"It was a period of great confusion as well. My astronomers had told me that\nthis sun's activity would decay slowly. Far too slowly, in fact, for the\nchange to be noticeable in a human lifetime. They were wrong. The heat of\nthe world declined by nearly two parts in a thousand over a few years, then\nstabilized. Crops failed, and there were famines and riots. I should have\nleft then.\" (SWORD, XXV)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<484E264C.2030204@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-10T06:59:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8cab7$8642a680$d6cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nGwern Branwen quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Against this are Typhon's comments about his astronomers being wrong in\ntheir predictions about the rate of change in the sun's output. Contrary\nto\ntheir predictions, it had declined by a small but detectable amount in\njust\na \"few years\", followed by crop failures, famine and riots. So Typhon had\n*some* reason to be keeping an eye on the sun even before effects of the\nchange became apparent. The change seems to have happened on his watch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-Roy\nI'm not sure this is useful to know. Of course he has reason to keep an eye\non the Sun, but that tells us nothing. After all, *we* [modern-day humanity\nin general] would definitely notice a decline in luminosity in a few years -\nwe keep a very close eye on the Sun for all sorts of reasons, none of which\nare because we rule an evil empire or anything.<<<" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe I didn't convey the sense of it clearly enough. In context, it is\napparent that something unusual had happened to the sun *before* the\nastronomers made there predictions as to what the effects of the change\nwould be, a change that they didn't think would be noticed in a human\nlifetime. Here is the quote." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The timeline of change is fairly arbitrary. The factoid about light \nemitted in the core of the sun taking millions of years to reach the \nsurface is technically correct according to now- and then-current \nquantum mechanical reasons, but also depends on the internal, notional \nstructure of the sun being fairly static; the introduction of one or \nmore black holes of some size could churn things up a bit, and changes \nin the density, pressure, temperature, etc. can propagate much much \nfaster, in some variable star cases in as little as a few weeks.\n\nIt's also arbitrary in that while Wolfe *can* bone up on fine details of \nphysics, as in \"How I Turned Back the German Invasion...\", he doesn't \nnecessarily do it in all cases (for example, the bogus explanation of \nmagic mirrors accelerating light), and the gnawing worm at the heart of \nthe sun, or the black beans cast on the sun's grave may only share with \nthe then-current black hole models the quality of being a hidden \ncelestial object of possibly cosmic, devouring gravitational potency and \nbeing linked to an opposite counterpart of brilliant radiance and equal, \n creative potency." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8cad7$5e6c62c0$bed04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-10T08:52:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<484E264C.2030204@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nI don't think it's a point that can be definitively settled either\nway. But given the lack of any other explanation in the narrative,\nit just feels right to me that the reason the Ship was close enough\nto the sun to cause an eclipse in Apu Panchau's time was because\nthe Hiero-dudes were inserting a black sun. What else was it doing\nthere? And to me it's just neat to have the dying of the old sun\ncommence with the first appearance of the New." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have always thought that the Ship really was there to stage the eclipse\nthat saved Sev's bacon. The eclipse was not a coincidence. Obviously, it is\na physical impossibility for any vessel to transport or even come near a\nblack hole, so if the Hierogrammates are the ones who put it in the sun, and\nregardless of when it happened, how was the deed done?\n\nAnd that brings up the complementary question: If they could put a black\nhole directly in the sun (obviously no black hole traveled through the solar\nsystem wrecking havoc like the white hole later would), then they could have\nput the white hole directly in the sun, too. But they didn't. Why? Because\nthey couldn't, or because they didn't want to? If they could not, that may\nput the blame for the black hole back on Typhon. But if they *chose* to send\nthe white fountain by the scenic route (as they chose to send Sev back to\nTyphon's time instead of his own), why?\n\nOne answer may be to stretch the range of Sev's time-walking ability from\nthe era of the Stone Town all the way to Ushas, said range delineated by\nlight from the white fountain reaching Urth, all in furtherance of the\nConciliator legend. Another answer is that they needed Urth destroyed to\nbring about Ushas.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080610092400.E20DE11803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-10T09:23:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8cad7$5e6c62c0$bed04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:04:50 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\n\nMaybe I didn't convey the sense of it clearly enough. In context,\nit is\napparent that something unusual had happened to the sun *before*\nthe\nastronomers made there predictions as to what the effects of the\nchange\nwould be, a change that they didn't think would be noticed in a\nhuman\nlifetime. Here is the quote.\n\n\"It was a period of great confusion as well. My astronomers had\ntold me that\nthis sun's activity would decay slowly. Far too slowly, in fact,\nfor the\nchange to be noticeable in a human lifetime. They were wrong. The\nheat of\nthe world declined by nearly two parts in a thousand over a few\nyears, then\nstabilized. Crops failed, and there were famines and riots. I\nshould have\nleft then.\" (SWORD, XXV)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But I don't think this absolutely supports your position.\n\nFor example: maybe the astronomers knew about a black hole lurking \nin the sun's heart from way back. Whatever effect it was having, \nthey expected it not to change noticeably in the near term, but for \nsome reason they were wrong. That seems consistent with what Typhon \nsays.\n\nOr: they don't know about the black hole, but one day their \nsensitive instruments detect an anomaly in the sun's output, too \nsmall to be noticed without the instruments, but significant enough \nto send them scurrying for an explanation. They come up with one, \nbut it's wrong. That seems consistent also." } ] }, { "message_id": "<484E4968.2090907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-10T09:29:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8cad7$5e6c62c0$bed04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI have always thought that the Ship really was there to stage the eclipse\nthat saved Sev's bacon. The eclipse was not a coincidence. Obviously, it is\na physical impossibility for any vessel to transport or even come near a\nblack hole, so if the Hierogrammates are the ones who put it in the sun, and\nregardless of when it happened, how was the deed done?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We don't know this is true within the context of the books. Several \nexamples of antigravity (the throne room and the fliers to name two) are \nprovided that might be parleyed into protection from the hole's gravity. \n there are numerous techical work-arounds suggested in popular science \nliterature of the time, like using electrical charges and magnetic \nfields to move the collapsed mass without touching it.\n\n( Black holes, btw, can come in all sizes, and the gravity at a distance \nis no greater than it would have been for the original object. It's just \nthat the collapsed state allows one to closely approach the total mass \nall at once, instead of having it distributed over thousands or millions \nof miles. )" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And that brings up the complementary question: If they could put a black\nhole directly in the sun (obviously no black hole traveled through the solar\nsystem wrecking havoc like the white hole later would)," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, we don't know this for sure. *Something* moved the moon 100,000 \nmiles closer to Urth than it is to Earth, and an incoming black hole is \nas plausible as many other explanations posited here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "then they could have\nput the white hole directly in the sun, too. But they didn't. Why? Because\nthey couldn't, or because they didn't want to? If they could not, that may\nput the blame for the black hole back on Typhon. But if they *chose* to send\nthe white fountain by the scenic route (as they chose to send Sev back to\nTyphon's time instead of his own), why?\n\nOne answer may be to stretch the range of Sev's time-walking ability from\nthe era of the Stone Town all the way to Ushas, said range delineated by\nlight from the white fountain reaching Urth, all in furtherance of the\nConciliator legend. Another answer is that they needed Urth destroyed to\nbring about Ushas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The worldwide upheavals may have been considered necessary to do away \nwith Abaia, Erebus, and their ilk. It makes sense that something \ncatastrophic would be required, and you'd want to do them as a batch to \nprevent the survivors of a first strike to grow stronger by taking up \nthe resources of their dead rivals." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<484E68C4.8090203@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-10T11:43:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8cad7$5e6c62c0$bed04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "/I don't think it's a point that can be definitively settled either\n/>/way. But given the lack of any other explanation in the narrative,\n/>/it just feels right to me that the reason the Ship was close enough\n/>/to the sun to cause an eclipse in Apu Panchau's time was because\n/>/the Hiero-dudes were inserting a black sun. What else was it doing\n/>/there? And to me it's just neat to have the dying of the old sun\n/>/commence with the first appearance of the New." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/\nI have always thought that the Ship really was there to stage the eclipse\nthat saved Sev's bacon. The eclipse was not a coincidence. Obviously, it is\na physical impossibility for any vessel to transport or even come near a\nblack hole, so if the Hierogrammates are the ones who put it in the sun, and\nregardless of when it happened, how was the deed done?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have another possible explanation for the eclipse. The exact \ndimensions of the Ship aren't given, but could it really be large enough \nto shadow the Sun and let the stars be seen like that? It would have to \nbe almost as big as the moon. Why couldn't the eclipse be a normal one, \ncaused by the moon?\n\nSev got to that place and time by following Juturna's directions, \"That \nway the future, that way the past.\" (UotNS XLVII). She may have opened \nthe corridor of time for him and picked a time when real total eclipse \nwas due. That would be a nice nod to the famous time-travel story by \nMark Twain, \"A Connecticut Yankee in King Author's Court.\" (Another \nhint: when Juturna's face is first seen in SooT II, it is compared to \nthe moon.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And that brings up the complementary question: If they could put a black\nhole directly in the sun (obviously no black hole traveled through the solar\nsystem wrecking havoc like the white hole later would), then they could have\nput the white hole directly in the sun, too. But they didn't. Why? Because\nthey couldn't, or because they didn't want to? If they could not, that may\nput the blame for the black hole back on Typhon. But if they *chose* to send\nthe white fountain by the scenic route (as they chose to send Sev back to\nTyphon's time instead of his own), why?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps there were legalities that had to be observed. There were dire \nconsequences to the New Sun, but if the Hierogrammates were answerable \nto higher authorities they could point to Sev and say: \"Here's the \nrepresentative of Urth that requested this. We also sent him back to the \ntime when the black hole was placed and gave him the chance to provide a \nwarning about what was coming, backed up with miracles to increase his \ncredibility.\"\n\nThe business about the photons taking a long time to reach the surface \nof the Sun is interesting physics but it's never referred to in the \nnarrative. It forces the story about the black hole being placed as a \nresponse to human wrongdoing to be a lie. If Wolfe intended this \ninterpretation I think there would be more clues." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17 at aol.com", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2008-06-10T13:09:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<484E68C4.8090203@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a message dated 6/10/2008 7:43:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, \ndavetallman at msn.com writes:\n\n\"I have another possible explanation for the eclipse. The exact \ndimensions of the Ship aren't given, but could it really be large enough \nto shadow the Sun and let the stars be seen like that? It would have to \nbe almost as big as the moon. Why couldn't the eclipse be a normal one, \ncaused by the moon?\"\n \nIf the ship were a lot close than the moon, it could be a lot smaller and \nshadow the sun. If it were 3000 times closer (low earth orbit), it could\nbe 3000 times smaller, or only around a mile in diameter.\n \nPeter\n \n\n\n\n**************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best \n2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080610131038.GJ17271@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2008-06-10T13:10:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8cad7$5e6c62c0$bed04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 03:52:47AM -0500, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nI have always thought that the Ship really was there to stage the eclipse\nthat saved Sev's bacon. The eclipse was not a coincidence. Obviously, it is\na physical impossibility for any vessel to transport or even come near a\nblack hole, so if the Hierogrammates are the ones who put it in the sun, and\nregardless of when it happened, how was the deed done?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Err, not impossible at all. The easiest way to transport a black hole would\nbe to dump a bunch of electrons into it and then use an electrical field to\nmove it around. If you had a big enough mass and enough time, you could\nalso just use gravity to move one around. " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-10T14:44:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080610131038.GJ17271@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thalassocrat, \n\nI am confused. Could you explain who the hiero-dudes are. Not hierodules I guess. Nor \nHierogrammates. They are the humans who spread across the galaxy and who invented\nthe hierogrammates as ideal beings/companions? They plan to storm heaven? Are \nhiero-dudes from after Ushas or are they related to Typhon's era diaspora? \nOr something else? Help!\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<484E96F1.1010805@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-10T15:00:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "StoneOx17 at aol.com wrote:\nIn a message dated 6/10/2008 7:43:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, \ndavetallman at msn.com writes:\n\n\"I have another possible explanation for the eclipse. The exact \ndimensions of the Ship aren't given, but could it really be large enough \nto shadow the Sun and let the stars be seen like that? It would have to \nbe almost as big as the moon. Why couldn't the eclipse be a normal one, \ncaused by the moon?\"\n \nIf the ship were a lot close than the moon, it could be a lot smaller and \nshadow the sun. If it were 3000 times closer (low earth orbit), it could\nbe 3000 times smaller, or only around a mile in diameter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would make it only about 80 miles up, a rapidly decaying orbit to \nbe sure. It would have to have some form of lift to let it hover in \nplace anyway, because at orbital speeds the eclipse would only last a \nsecond or less." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-10T15:05:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<484E96F1.1010805@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've seen the arguments about the eclipse before. The timing of a black hole or hiero-ship caused \neclipse seems too coincidental. Quite a double duty for that event....trans-universal stellar events \nalso stopping a primitive ritual sacrifice among savages on Urth? Yes, it is our hero, but we already \nknow Severian can't be killed, as his resurrection from having his head bashed in by the savages \nlater shows. Why would the hieros time the crucial event to rescue Severian when he doesn't need \nrescuing and would be killed again fairly soon?\n\nI've always been partial to Dave Tallman's interpretation. The scene SO echoes the Connecticut\nYankee scene and Wolfe makes numerous other literary allusions through this series. Moreover, as \nConciliator, Severian's emotions during crisis situations cause natural, urthly upheavals...storms, \nearthquakes. An eclipse seems like a reasonable next upheaval. Though magnitudes more energy \nmight be required than the other events I think the pleasure in alluding to Twain overcame any \nreservations Wolfe might have had.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080610151604.ABBDE11803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-10T15:16:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:44:37 +1000 b sharp \n wrote:\nThalassocrat, \n\nI am confused. Could you explain who the hiero-dudes are. Not \nhierodules I guess. Nor \nHierogrammates. They are the humans who spread across the galaxy \nand who invented\nthe hierogrammates as ideal beings/companions? They plan to storm " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "heaven? Are \nhiero-dudes from after Ushas or are they related to Typhon's era \ndiaspora? \nOr something else? Help!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I use it loosely for the Hierogrammates, Hierarchs (like Apheta) \nand Hierodules as a combined group, but I guess I would usually be \nthinking mostly of the Hierogrammates.\n\nI don't include the Hieros in the group; they've gone away, I think \nprobably to heaven. I suspect the Hierogrammates of having designs \non that heaven. I think the Hierarchs are probably part of the \nplot, but I think the Hierodules are most likely dupes (in other \nwords I think Inire and Sev's buddies F, B & O are probably acting \nin good faith). \n\nFor what it's worth, the different classes do seem to match in a \nway the hierarchies of ancient Greek temple and cult bureaucracies, \nwhich is where the terms originate from. Hieros as priests at the \ntop; hierogrammates as scribes, being senior bureaucrats; hierarchs \nbeing executors of ritual etc; and hierodules the slaves. \n\nIn these organisations, \"hiero\" or \"holy\" could mean just \n\"cult/temple bureaucracy staffer\". So you could have titles like \n\"holy debt collector\". " } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0806100852l2ab048acya020936a52ff67a7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-10T15:52:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't it stated almost explicitly in the afterword that the eclipse\nwas caused by Tzadkiel's ship? If you think the Twain references are\nthere, they can still be there if the ship causes the eclipse rather\nthan the moon." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA2249201561E1C@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2008-06-10T16:01:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0806100852l2ab048acya020936a52ff67a7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hope I'm not going to put my foot in my mouth here . . . but if I'm\nthinking of the correct scene, my understanding has been that Severian\nhimself causes the eclipse - since he is, in his own body and person,\nthe new sun, his own body is what causes the shadow to fall, since he is\nstanding between the sun and the natives. That's why they bow down to\nhim. \n\n\n\n \n\n\n-------------------------\nInvite the next generation of students to consider Briercrest College and Seminary. Visit www.briercrest.ca/refer. \n-------------------------\nThis e-mail may contain confidential and privileged proprietary material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive the information from the recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370806100930j27eed455j2f0108135077d988@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-10T16:30:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<484E96F1.1010805@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tzadkiel's Ship -- *counting its sails*, is significantly bigger than a mile\nin diameter, at least for purposes of shadow-casting. Solar sails have\nto be (a) very very large and (b) quite opaque in order to be effective." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nStoneOx17 at aol.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In a message dated 6/10/2008 7:43:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,\ndavetallman at msn.com writes:\n\n\"I have another possible explanation for the eclipse. The exact\ndimensions of the Ship aren't given, but could it really be large enough to\nshadow the Sun and let the stars be seen like that? It would have to be\nalmost as big as the moon. Why couldn't the eclipse be a normal one, caused\nby the moon?\"\n If the ship were a lot close than the moon, it could be a lot smaller and\nshadow the sun. If it were 3000 times closer (low earth orbit), it could\nbe 3000 times smaller, or only around a mile in diameter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That would make it only about 80 miles up, a rapidly decaying orbit to be\nsure. It would have to have some form of lift to let it hover in place\nanyway, because at orbital speeds the eclipse would only last a second or\nless.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8cb2f$6b520d20$58cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-10T19:23:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370806100930j27eed455j2f0108135077d988@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eric Ortlund wrote:\nI hope I'm not going to put my foot in my mouth here . . . but if I'm\nthinking of the correct scene, my understanding has been that Severian\nhimself causes the eclipse - since he is, in his own body and person,\nthe new sun, his own body is what causes the shadow to fall, since he is\nstanding between the sun and the natives. That's why they bow down to\nhim." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even the most ignorant savages can tell the difference between an eclipse\nand a man's shadow. Dawn had been delayed by an eclipse. The natives knew\nthat the sun should have been up, so they feared that what they had regarded\nas a boast by Severian -- that he was somehow connected with the sun and its\ndaily comings and goings -- might be true. That is the point at which they\nbowed to him, *then* the sun came out and cast his shadow over them. (URTH,\nXLIX, 350)\n\nIn a natural eclipse, the sun doesn't come back that quickly. It was a\nstaged event. The Ship can move out of the way much faster than the moon,\nand it did.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA2249201562006@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2008-06-10T20:22:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8cb2f$6b520d20$58cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eric Ortlund wrote:\nI hope I'm not going to put my foot in my mouth here . . . but if I'm \nthinking of the correct scene, my understanding has been that Severian \nhimself causes the eclipse - since he is, in his own body and person, \nthe new sun, his own body is what causes the shadow to fall, since he \nis standing between the sun and the natives. That's why they bow down \nto him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even the most ignorant savages can tell the difference between an\neclipse and a man's shadow. Dawn had been delayed by an eclipse. The\nnatives knew that the sun should have been up, so they feared that what\nthey had regarded as a boast by Severian -- that he was somehow\nconnected with the sun and its daily comings and goings -- might be\ntrue. That is the point at which they bowed to him, *then* the sun came\nout and cast his shadow over them. (URTH, XLIX, 350)\n\nIn a natural eclipse, the sun doesn't come back that quickly. It was a\nstaged event. The Ship can move out of the way much faster than the\nmoon, and it did.\n\n-Roy\n\n\nHi Roy - \n\nI think I understand you, but, instead of a difference between an\neclipse and Severian's shadow, I think the two are the same - Severian\nis blocking out the sun behind him with his own body. If that sounds\nstrange . . . well, he's the new sun! I think this is a simpler theory\nthan positing the ship being there right at the same time, and I think\nbetter fits with the way Wolfe hints at us in his own postscript to the\nbook. Blessings!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<484F17C2.9080303@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T00:09:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8cb2f$6b520d20$58cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nIn a natural eclipse, the sun doesn't come back that quickly. It was a\nstaged event. The Ship can move out of the way much faster than the moon,\nand it did.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You make a good point about the sudden ending of the eclipse, which also \ncoincided with exactly when Sev needed it. I was doubtful that the Ship \nwould come that far into the solar system, since it usually stays beyond \nthe orbit of Dis (Pluto), but I found evidence in the text that \ncorroborates this theory, in Urth XXVI.\n\nSometimes they bring the big one in a good bit closer than this,\" the \nhand detailed to guide us confided as we came aboard. \"Only they can't \nhelp getting between someone's eyes and a few stars when they do...\"\n\nGetting between eyes and one star in particular (the Sun) is exactly \nwhat we need, so I'm convinced." } ] }, { "message_id": "<484F2558.1050806@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T01:07:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370806100930j27eed455j2f0108135077d988@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nTzadkiel's Ship -- *counting its sails*, is significantly bigger than a mile\nin diameter, at least for purposes of shadow-casting. Solar sails have\nto be (a) very very large and (b) quite opaque in order to be effective." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LEO velocity is about 5 miles per second, so each second of eclipse is 5 \nmiles worth of ship, plus the penumbra penalty (altitude times twice the \ntangent of the sun's arc width (0.5 degrees)). There would also need to \nbe some means of maneuvering the entire ship within a moment or a \nmassive number of crew available to trim the sails in a like period of time.\n\nThe mentioned but not seen tender could also have been used, as it seems \nto have some indefinite capacity and size." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<484F2586.2020207@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T01:08:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0806100852l2ab048acya020936a52ff67a7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\nIsn't it stated almost explicitly in the afterword that the eclipse\nwas caused by Tzadkiel's ship? If you think the Twain references are\nthere, they can still be there if the ship causes the eclipse rather\nthan the moon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may be a Twain reference, but there was also an historic example on \nFebruary 29, 1504 involving Columbus and a lunar eclipse, from whence \nthe story element springs." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002001c8cb6e$3a8820a0$1acf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-11T02:52:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080610151604.ABBDE11803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth quoted and wrote:\nI have always thought that the Ship really was there to stage the eclipse\nthat saved Sev's bacon. The eclipse was not a coincidence. Obviously, it\nis\na physical impossibility for any vessel to transport or even come near a\nblack hole, so if the Hierogrammates are the ones who put it in the sun,\nand\nregardless of when it happened, how was the deed done?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--------------------------------------------------------------------------\nErr, not impossible at all. The easiest way to transport a black hole would\nbe to dump a bunch of electrons into it and then use an electrical field to\nmove it around. If you had a big enough mass and enough time, you could\nalso just use gravity to move one around." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-------------------------------------------------------------------------<<\n\nNeat trick, that, if the Ship can hold it below or above its decks without\ngetting sucked in. Stipulating such a fantastic container for a baby black\nhole, then what? How does it get from the Ship to the center of the sun? Or\nfailing that, if a fly-by is made and the black hole jettisoned to the\nsurface of the sun, then what? How long does it take to eat up enough of the\nsun to make the textually specified difference in the temperature on Urth?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<484F47E1.7030708@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T03:34:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<002001c8cb6e$3a8820a0$1acf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeffrey Brent McBeth quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have always thought that the Ship really was there to stage the eclipse\nthat saved Sev's bacon. The eclipse was not a coincidence. Obviously, it\nis\na physical impossibility for any vessel to transport or even come near a\nblack hole, so if the Hierogrammates are the ones who put it in the sun,\nand\nregardless of when it happened, how was the deed done?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "--------------------------------------------------------------------------\nErr, not impossible at all. The easiest way to transport a black hole would\nbe to dump a bunch of electrons into it and then use an electrical field to\nmove it around. If you had a big enough mass and enough time, you could\nalso just use gravity to move one around." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-------------------------------------------------------------------------<<\n\nNeat trick, that, if the Ship can hold it below or above its decks without\ngetting sucked in. Stipulating such a fantastic container for a baby black\nhole, then what? How does it get from the Ship to the center of the sun? Or\nfailing that, if a fly-by is made and the black hole jettisoned to the\nsurface of the sun, then what? How long does it take to eat up enough of the\nsun to make the textually specified difference in the temperature on Urth?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Er, wasn't it one of Typhon's children who threw \"black beans on the \ngrave of the sun\"? They would have had access to several ships who \ncould have been used to as magnetic tongs to move a small hole in, and \nif Wolfe is using the then-plausible Einstein-Rosen bridge idea, they \ncould use the smaller hole to gate in a larger one from elsewhere in the \ngalaxy, and thus leapfrog up to whatever size was necessary.\n\nThis churning of multiple black holes inside the sun (the largest being \n presumably the worm said to gnaw at its heart) could lead to a \ncompacting of the interior layers, which would have a more immediate \neffect on the surface, letting it also shrink and thus reduce its \noutput, since there's less surface to give off light." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8cb80$c7da8b20$ebd24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-11T05:05:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<484F47E1.7030708@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nNeat trick, that, if the Ship can hold it below or above its decks\nwithout\ngetting sucked in. Stipulating such a fantastic container for a baby\nblack\nhole, then what? How does it get from the Ship to the center of the sun?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "failing that, if a fly-by is made and the black hole jettisoned to the\nsurface of the sun, then what? How long does it take to eat up enough of\nthe\nsun to make the textually specified difference in the temperature on\nUrth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Er, wasn't it one of Typhon's children who threw \"black beans on the\ngrave of the sun\"? They would have had access to several ships who\ncould have been used to as magnetic tongs to move a small hole in, and\nif Wolfe is using the then-plausible Einstein-Rosen bridge idea, they\ncould use the smaller hole to gate in a larger one from elsewhere in the\ngalaxy, and thus leapfrog up to whatever size was necessary." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't believe there is any mention at all of Typhon's children in the Urth\nCycle, and the only black bean story I recall is the one told by Jonas at\nthe very end of SHADOW, which makes no mention of the sun. Anyway,\n\"grave of the sun\" sounds like that sun is already dead. Where is the quote\nfound?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T12:35:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<484F2586.2020207@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I feel the need to tout my interpretation of the eclipse again. By having Severian himself\n(subconsciously) cause the eclipse, the multiple problems of a ship-caused eclipse are \neliminated. It addresses Roy C. Lackey's observation that the eclipse ended much more quickly\nthan a natural eclipse.\n\nI haven't heard any explanation for why the Hiero-dudes on a cosmic mission would bother \nparking their vehicle in an exact spot for an exact time period to perform the useless task of \nsaving Severian's life, when he will be killed again soon and can't actually BE killed.\n\nBut I was thinking about it and came up with a couple medium-weak explanations for those \nconvinced the eclipse was spaceship-caused: \n\n1. The hiero-dudes needed to create the illusion Severian could control the sun because the\nlegend of Apu Punchau (Head of the Day) was necessary to prepare Urth for the legend of \nthe Concilliator-New Sun. Though Apu Punchau seems to have been completely forgotten by \nhumans in Severian's time. Was this eclipse necessary for sungod worship in the future of Urth?\n\n2. Severian had to have the name/title \"Apu Punchau\" to make the scene with Hildegrin and the \nCumaean work in the future. I'm not sure why that would be necessary.\n\nAre there any other reasons the eclipse is so essential the Hieros had to create it?\n\nIf not, I'll have to consider the idea of Severian causing the eclipse at least as a strong competing \ntheory to the spaceship theory. It makes poetic sense to me that Severian's first (in Urth history) \nuse of Conciliator/New Sun power would be to control the sun's light. \n\nMoreover I am not in the camp that sees Severian as a contemptible dupe for the Hiero-dudes. \nThough they surely manipulate him and deny him knowledge at some points, I perceive they have\n a true reverence for him. He isn't just a tool. Since this reverence couldn't be based on his intellect \nor personal morality or his accidental selection as New Sun, it must be partly based on powers he has\nthat exceed their own.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370806110827m1b35c02dm5088612b6f5d0d03@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T15:27:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<484F2558.1050806@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tzadkiel's Ship -- *counting its sails*, is significantly bigger than a\nmile\nin diameter, at least for purposes of shadow-casting. Solar sails have\nto be (a) very very large and (b) quite opaque in order to be effective." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "LEO velocity is about 5 miles per second, so each second of eclipse is 5\nmiles worth of ship, plus the penumbra penalty (altitude times twice the\ntangent of the sun's arc width (0.5 degrees)). There would also need to be\nsome means of maneuvering the entire ship within a moment or a massive\nnumber of crew available to trim the sails in a like period of time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The numbers I've seen for an effective solar sail are in the range of\ntens of thousands of miles." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T16:39:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8cb80$c7da8b20$ebd24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't believe there is any mention at all of Typhon's children in the Urth\nCycle, and the only black bean story I recall is the one told by Jonas at\nthe very end of SHADOW, which makes no mention of the sun. Anyway,\n\"grave of the sun\" sounds like that sun is already dead. Where is the quote\nfound?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jonas's story, minus the interruption:\n---\nIn the old times, the lords of this world feared no one but their own\npeople, and to defend themselves against them built a great fortress\non a hilltop to the north of the city. It was not called Nessus then,\nfor the river was unpoisoned. Many of the people were angry at the\nbuilding of that citadel, holding it to be their right to slay their\nlords without hindrance if they so desired. But others went out in the\nships that ply between the stars, returning with treasure and\nknowledge. In time there returned a woman who had gained nothing among\nthem but a handful of black beans.\n\nShe displayed the beans to the lords of men, and told them that unless\nshe were obeyed she would cast them into the sea and so put an end to\nthe world. They had her seized and torn to bits, for they were a\nhundred times more complete in their domination than our Autarch.\n---\n\nI had interpreted the beans as the genesis of the sea monsters Abaia,\net al. It is interesting that Jonas claims this to be the almost the\nonly story he knows." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40806111026h267ccc8epfcac008d4d55180f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T17:26:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370806110827m1b35c02dm5088612b6f5d0d03@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nI feel the need to tout my interpretation of the eclipse again. By having Severian himself\n\n(subconsciously) cause the eclipse, the multiple problems of a ship-caused eclipse are\neliminated. It addresses Roy C. Lackey's observation that the eclipse ended much more quickly\nthan a natural eclipse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian went back several years before the time when the light of the White\nFountain would reach Urth. His power was weakened; we know he couldn't\ntime-travel, though he could do minor healings. I don't think he had enough\npower to pull off a lunar eclipse. He wasn't even thinking of doing such a\nthing at the time.\n\nI haven't heard any explanation for why the Hiero-dudes on a cosmic\nmission would bother" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "parking their vehicle in an exact spot for an exact time period to perform the useless task of\nsaving Severian's life, when he will be killed again soon and can't actually BE killed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He could be killed if he died then, so long before the White Fountain's\nlight that he \"lost all count of years\" (Urth L). By the time the light\nreached him his body would be nothing but bones. There would be no revival.\nTo decode what happened we need to trace a historical rewrite.\n\n1) The Hierogrammates find that Sev has disappeared. He is no longer\navailable to help build the new Ushas, or supply his genes to new\ngenerations. This is a catastrophe for their plans.\n\n2) They investigate and eventually question Joturna, finding out that Sev\nhas gone into the past.\n\n3) They know the outer limits of the time range he could get to. \"Flying his\ntime, he runs til he must halt; then halts he here because he cannot run.\"\n(Urth L).\n\n4) They comb history for anomalies until they find the sudden use of Inca\narches. (Sev made a building with arches before he died, and taught the\nhetmen how). (Urth XLIX).\n\n5) They realize Sev needs a miracle to stay alive until the White Fountain\nlight will let him return to the future.\n\n6) They stage the eclipse.\n\nNext stage: history develops with the legend of Apu-Punchau. He is strangled\nby his people when he attempts to leave, but the light of the White Fountain\nallows him to revive and stay with them. Millenia later, Hildegrin learns of\nApu-Punchau and enlists witches to bring him back. Sev is involved and the\nmerge happens. The Hierogrammates learn of this incident and figure it out;\nthis is a new disaster that must be fixed to prevent the loss of Sev. F, B,\nand O go back to that time and split off a new eidolon. Problem solved.\n\nWith the early knowledge of who Apu-Punchau is, the investigation is simpler\nwhen Sev disappears from Ushas. But they still must stage the eclipse." } ] }, { "message_id": "<48501989.7030306@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T18:29:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370806110827m1b35c02dm5088612b6f5d0d03@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:07 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Tzadkiel's Ship -- *counting its sails*, is significantly bigger than a\nmile\nin diameter, at least for purposes of shadow-casting. Solar sails have\nto be (a) very very large and (b) quite opaque in order to be effective." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "LEO velocity is about 5 miles per second, so each second of eclipse is 5\nmiles worth of ship, plus the penumbra penalty (altitude times twice the\ntangent of the sun's arc width (0.5 degrees)). There would also need to be\nsome means of maneuvering the entire ship within a moment or a massive\nnumber of crew available to trim the sails in a like period of time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The numbers I've seen for an effective solar sail are in the range of\ntens of thousands of miles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think we can square that figure with Sev's account of the masts \nand sails early in URTH. Also, regular solar sails of even that scale \naren't adequate to propel the Ship out of the solar system in the time \nframe given. Ounces of thrust per acre of sail vs a mass large enough to \nhave signifigant surface gravity yields excruciatingly tiny acceleration." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<16670.1213211693@speakeasy.net>", "from": { "name": "oblate777 at speakeasy.net", "address": "oblate777 at speakeasy.net" }, "date": "2008-06-11T19:14:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<48501989.7030306@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Wed Jun 11 14:29 , Jeff Wilson sent:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think we can square that figure with Sev's account of the masts \nand sails early in URTH. Also, regular solar sails of even that scale \naren't adequate to propel the Ship out of the solar system in the time \nframe given. Ounces of thrust per acre of sail vs a mass large enough to \nhave signifigant surface gravity yields excruciatingly tiny acceleration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps the sail technology used on the Ship is more exotic than a simple solar\nsail. For example, I point to the \"mirrors\" used by Father Inire.\n\nrob t." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-06-11T20:06:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370806110827m1b35c02dm5088612b6f5d0d03@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The numbers I've seen for an effective solar sail are in the range of\ntens of thousands of miles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cordwainer Smith's solar sails spring to mind. In the framing story of \"The \nLady who sailed The Soul\" there is a casual note that at one time the sails \nof one interstellar ship accidentally shaded the whole Earth. \n\nMr Wolfe, are you **sure** you never read Cordwainer Smith??? \n\n\n - hartshorn " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-06-11T22:03:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<16670.1213211693@speakeasy.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 11 Jun 2008, oblate777 at speakeasy.net wrote:\n\nPerhaps the sail technology used on the Ship is more exotic than a simple solar\nsail. For example, I point to the \"mirrors\" used by Father Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Especially given that the sailors mention it is quite common to get \napports generated by the sails\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001d01c8cc1f$ff44a380$edcc4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-12T00:05:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nTzadkiel's Ship -- *counting its sails*, is significantly bigger than a\nmile\nin diameter, at least for purposes of shadow-casting. Solar sails have\nto be (a) very very large and (b) quite opaque in order to be effective." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l is correct. The Ship has seven sides, the decks covered by \"masts\nbeyond counting\". (URTH, I, 2) Some of the masts are \"separated by tens of\nleagues at least\". (I, 6) Many sails are improbably *huge*:\n\n\"Rising over the topmost sail as the New Sun of Urth\nmight someday rise above the Wall of Nessus (yet far, far\nlarger and more beautiful than even the New Sun can ever\nbe, just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire\ncontinent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of\nNessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long,\nmight have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold),[...]\n(XIV, 103)\n\nThe Ship's overall size has to be on a planetary scale.\n\nThis eclipse business just isn't that hard. All the Ship has to do is travel\nin a straight line between the sun and Urth, at the appropriate distance to\nachieve eclipse, and veer to one side to uncover the sun at the right\nmoment.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0806111720v6b77dcf2l67eb6db2e2eebddf@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-12T00:20:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it is not until the eclipse is *over* that Severian's shadow falls\nupon them. (That is to say, he eclipses the sun, but not in the way\nyou mean.) In order for a person to create a proper eclipse -- in\nwhich the darkness is comparable to night or twilight, I suspect he\nwould have to be outside of Earth's atmosphere, and still fat enough\nto create an eclipse at such a distance. So, *really* fat. Also,\nduring the time of the eclipse, Severian is moving around a lot and\ngesticulating while acting out his story for the natives. The\nTzadkiel's ship explanation is infinitely more plausible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 6/11/08, b sharp wrote:\n\nI feel the need to tout my interpretation of the eclipse again." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-12T03:45:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0806111720v6b77dcf2l67eb6db2e2eebddf@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the beginning of UotNS, while on the Ship deck, Severian specifically notes his weight has been\nreduced by 7/8. So Roy's assertion that the Ship is of planetary size is a bit exaggerated but not \nby so much. A bit smaller but of similar size to our Moon, and thus surely capable of causing an eclipse. \n \nThe lunar eclipse used by Columbus to intimidate the natives on February 29, 1504 is a good mention\nby Jeff Wilson. That event could have inspired both Twain and Wolfe. But of course, Severian's is not\nthat one, being a solar eclipse.\n \nSince I am quite in the minority in attributing the eclipse to Severian himself, I am probably wrong \nabout it. The Ship's Moon size is evidence by itself. The comment that the big Ship is capable of \ngetting deeper into the solar system but would pass between eyes and stars seems like it could be \nan auctorial clue that the ship caused the eclipse. Believing the assertion that Severian has gone\ntoo far into the past and is powerless at the time of his trial is also evidence against my interpretation.\n \nBut I still retain a sense I could be right. Something just seems missing if Severian only twice uses his power\nto affect nature in a cataclysmic way. Nobody, certainly not Severian, seems capable of accurately \npredicting when, where and how his power will manifest itself from his personal being. He might have his \nfull powers always. In the afterward, Wolfe notes that a \"thoughtful\" reader can figure out what caused the\neclipse. Most seem to take him at his literal word and think about the ship. But I always saw that notation\nas being a bit sarcastic, meaning that very little thought is needed to figure out what large body could be \nused to cause a solar eclipse. \n \nBut I am probably wrong on this one ;-).\n \n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080612040319.DA8C615803E@mailserver6.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-12T04:03:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:45:56 +1000 b sharp \n wrote:\n\nBut I still retain a sense I could be right. Something just seems \nmissing if Severian only twice uses his power\nto affect nature in a cataclysmic way. Nobody, certainly not \nSeverian, seems capable of accurately \npredicting when, where and how his power will manifest itself from " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "his personal being. He might have his \nfull powers always. In the afterward, Wolfe notes that a \n\"thoughtful\" reader can figure out what caused the\neclipse. Most seem to take him at his literal word and think about " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the ship. But I always saw that notation\nas being a bit sarcastic, meaning that very little thought is \nneeded to figure out what large body could be \nused to cause a solar eclipse. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's certainly worth thinking about non-Ship explanations. \n\nThe Apu Punchauan villagers surely think that Sev has done a magic \ndance and chant routine to banish the sun, then bring it back. It'd \nbe neat if somehow they were correct. It would also be neat if he \nsomehow is responsible for wounding the Old Sun as well as \nbringing/being the New Sun. \n\nI've mused over whether Sev could have caused the black hole at \nthis point, maybe by drawing power from it and causing ummm some \nkind of core collapse or something [waving hands], but I don't see \nanything in the text to make the idea work.\n\n\n\nIn the narrative you have Sev doing his little charade and dance \nroutine, which the people surely see as him doing a magic dance to \nbanish the sun, then bring it back. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080612044738.C1DEF15803E@mailserver6.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-12T04:47:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<20080612040319.DA8C615803E@mailserver6.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 10:05:12 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\n\n\"Rising over the topmost sail as the New Sun of Urth\nmight someday rise above the Wall of Nessus (yet far, far\nlarger and more beautiful than even the New Sun can ever\nbe, just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire\ncontinent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of\nNessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long,\nmight have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold),[...]\n(XIV, 103)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So the wall of Nessus is more than 4,000 miles long (if \"a few\" = \n\"three or more\" & we're talking about Roman-style leagues).\n\nNot really related to the eclipse issue, but how seriously are we \nsupposed to take Sev and other characters' sizing estimates?\n\nThe Great Wall of China is about 4,000 miles long, but that's not a \ncity wall.\n\nIf a 4,000 mile wall enclosed a circle, the diameter would be about \n1,300 miles and the enclosed area roughly the size of India.\n\nMore likely, I suppose, it encloses an area along the length of \nGyoll? Say a rough rectangle about 2,000 miles long and 100 miles \nwide. That gives an area about the size of Spain.\n\nNessus is a big place!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c8cc4a$795021c0$06cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-12T05:09:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<20080612044738.C1DEF15803E@mailserver6.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nAt the beginning of UotNS, while on the Ship deck, Severian specifically\nnotes his weight has been reduced by 7/8. So Roy's assertion that the Ship\nis of planetary size is a bit exaggerated but not by so much. A bit smaller\nbut of similar size to our Moon, and thus surely capable of causing an\neclipse.<<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These are the facts:\n\nDan'l said: \"Tzadkiel's Ship -- *counting its sails*, is significantly\nbigger than a mile in diameter, at least for purposes of shadow-casting.\nSolar sails have to be (a) very very large and (b) quite opaque in order to\nbe effective.\" [his emphasis]\n\nI backed him up with dimensions cited from the text, and said: \"The Ship's\noverall size has to be on a planetary scale.\"\n\nBoth our statements concerned the Ship's physical size, not its mass, so\nSev's weight is irrelevant.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001b01c8cc5d$7da2b860$0dcd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-12T07:25:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<001001c8cc4a$795021c0$06cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew wrote:\ncompared to which the mighty Wall of\nNessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long,\nmight have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold),[...]\n(XIV, 103)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So the wall of Nessus is more than 4,000 miles long (if \"a few\" =\n\"three or more\" & we're talking about Roman-style leagues).\n\nNot really related to the eclipse issue, but how seriously are we\nsupposed to take Sev and other characters' sizing estimates?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A league is set at \"about three miles\" in an appendix to CLAW, and even if\nyou set \"a few\" to equal the more conservative three, you get some pretty\nwild figures. Frankly, when you look at all the scattered comments about the\nWall and apply pencil and paper to the numbers, nothing works out right, no\nmatter how you look at it. Believe me, it's been tried!\n\nEven just looking at its height, nine miles is absurd. For instance, the\nWall is not supposed to be visible from Citadel Hill (unless you climb a\ntower), but the distance from the river (further upstream) to the Inn near\nthe Sanguinary Field, which is near the Wall, was easily walked by Autarch\nSeverian and his buddies, there and back, in much less than a day. If the\nWall was really that tall, there would have been nowhere in the city that it\ncouldn't be seen from even ground level, much less a hill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More likely, I suppose, it encloses an area along the length of\nGyoll? Say a rough rectangle about 2,000 miles long and 100 miles\nwide. That gives an area about the size of Spain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The city followed the river upstream for hundreds, if not thousands, of\nyears, so if the Wall encloses it, it has to be much longer than it is wide.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4850D466.7070404@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-12T07:46:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<16670.1213211693@speakeasy.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "oblate777 at speakeasy.net wrote:\n\nOn Wed Jun 11 14:29 , Jeff Wilson sent:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think we can square that figure with Sev's account of the masts \nand sails early in URTH. Also, regular solar sails of even that scale \naren't adequate to propel the Ship out of the solar system in the time \nframe given. Ounces of thrust per acre of sail vs a mass large enough to \nhave signifigant surface gravity yields excruciatingly tiny acceleration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps the sail technology used on the Ship is more exotic than a simple solar\nsail. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes of ocurse it is, it has to be. The problem is, when the author \nstarts making up non-physical stuff, and doesn't stop with Wells' single \nimprobability, where *does* he stop? We need some sort of connection to \nphysical reality to judge the inventiveness of a SF story, lest it slump \ninto undifferentiated fantastic speculation." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4850DAB7.9050106@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-12T08:13:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<001d01c8cc1f$ff44a380$edcc4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tzadkiel's Ship -- *counting its sails*, is significantly bigger than a\nmile\nin diameter, at least for purposes of shadow-casting. Solar sails have\nto be (a) very very large and (b) quite opaque in order to be effective." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l is correct. The Ship has seven sides, the decks covered by \"masts\nbeyond counting\". (URTH, I, 2) Some of the masts are \"separated by tens of\nleagues at least\". (I, 6) Many sails are improbably *huge*:\n\n\"Rising over the topmost sail as the New Sun of Urth\nmight someday rise above the Wall of Nessus (yet far, far\nlarger and more beautiful than even the New Sun can ever\nbe, just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire\ncontinent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of\nNessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long,\nmight have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold),[...]\n(XIV, 103)\n\nThe Ship's overall size has to be on a planetary scale." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think this is supported by \"Masts sprout from every deck, a \nhundred times taller than the Flag kepp of the Citadel,\" or by Severian \nbeing able to leap clear the distance from the deck to the startop \nwihtin a few minutes of indulging himself. (At least, he does not remark \non the passage of time or become concerned over needing to eat or drink.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This eclipse business just isn't that hard. All the Ship has to do is travel\nin a straight line between the sun and Urth, at the appropriate distance to\nachieve eclipse, and veer to one side to uncover the sun at the right\nmoment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A straight line with a sudden veer require the removal of gravity and \ninertia from the picture. Not that the Yesodis can't do that if they \nneed to, but why bother with sails at all if you can do that?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4850DD74.6030903@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-12T08:25:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nAt the beginning of UotNS, while on the Ship deck, Severian specifically \nnotes his weight has been\nreduced by 7/8. So Roy's assertion that the Ship is of planetary size is \na bit exaggerated but not\nby so much. A bit smaller but of similar size to our Moon, and thus \nsurely capable of causing an eclipse. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gravity doesn't dictate size, rather mass and distance dictate gravity. \nAn asteroid can have a gravity of 1g is you pack it itghtly so that you \ncan be withing a few meters of the whole thing. Likewise, the Ship has \nabout 1/8 gravity at most, but Severian writes that he is much closer to \nthe center of its mass that people on the ground are to Urth's center." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<84A5DF33-60B8-4080-9E37-11A8B5E4F98C@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-12T08:26:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<4850DAB7.9050106@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A straight line with a sudden veer require the removal of gravity \nand inertia from the picture. Not that the Yesodis can't do that if \nthey need to, but why bother with sails at all if you can do that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be a question of resource management. Removing gravity and \ninertia would doubtless take vast amounts of fuel or power. Maybe the \nHieros only do that when they really need to.\n\nBest,\nLane" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4850DF6C.9020106@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-12T08:33:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<84A5DF33-60B8-4080-9E37-11A8B5E4F98C@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A straight line with a sudden veer require the removal of gravity and \ninertia from the picture. Not that the Yesodis can't do that if they \nneed to, but why bother with sails at all if you can do that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could be a question of resource management. Removing gravity and inertia \nwould doubtless take vast amounts of fuel or power. Maybe the Hieros \nonly do that when they really need to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then it would be more efficient still to send a team of agents armed \nwith turkey basters down to Echopraxia." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003c01c8cc6b$896f5140$0acf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-12T09:05:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<4850DF6C.9020106@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nDan'l is correct. The Ship has seven sides, the decks covered by \"masts\nbeyond counting\". (URTH, I, 2) Some of the masts are \"separated by tens\nof\nleagues at least\". (I, 6) Many sails are improbably *huge*:\n\n\"Rising over the topmost sail as the New Sun of Urth\nmight someday rise above the Wall of Nessus (yet far, far\nlarger and more beautiful than even the New Sun can ever\nbe, just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire\ncontinent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of\nNessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long,\nmight have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold),[...]\n(XIV, 103)\n\nThe Ship's overall size has to be on a planetary scale." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think this is supported by \"Masts sprout from every deck, a\nhundred times taller than the Flag kepp of the Citadel,\" or by Severian\nbeing able to leap clear the distance from the deck to the startop\nwihtin a few minutes of indulging himself. (At least, he does not remark\non the passage of time or become concerned over needing to eat or drink.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then your quarrel is with Wolfe, not me. The text says what it says. Like I\nsaid before, the Wall of Nessus just can't be that tall and not be visible\nfrom ground level virtually anywhere in the city, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This eclipse business just isn't that hard. All the Ship has to do is\ntravel\nin a straight line between the sun and Urth, at the appropriate distance\nto\nachieve eclipse, and veer to one side to uncover the sun at the right\nmoment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A straight line with a sudden veer require the removal of gravity and\ninertia from the picture. Not that the Yesodis can't do that if they\nneed to, but why bother with sails at all if you can do that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed. And why bother manning and operating the Ship at all when they can\nuse a \"dimensional portal\" (your term) to move people (and maybe planets)\nfrom Yesod to Briah, and time-walk to anywhen?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48520656.4030308@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-13T05:32:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Apu-Punchau Eclipse", "in_reply_to": "<003c01c8cc6b$896f5140$0acf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dan'l is correct. The Ship has seven sides, the decks covered by \"masts\nbeyond counting\". (URTH, I, 2) Some of the masts are \"separated by tens\nof\nleagues at least\". (I, 6) Many sails are improbably *huge*:\n\n\"Rising over the topmost sail as the New Sun of Urth\nmight someday rise above the Wall of Nessus (yet far, far\nlarger and more beautiful than even the New Sun can ever\nbe, just as that smallest and uppermost sail was an entire\ncontinent of silver, compared to which the mighty Wall of\nNessus, a few leagues in height and a few thousand long,\nmight have been the tumbledown fence of a sheepfold),[...]\n(XIV, 103)\n\nThe Ship's overall size has to be on a planetary scale." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think this is supported by \"Masts sprout from every deck, a\nhundred times taller than the Flag kepp of the Citadel,\" or by Severian\nbeing able to leap clear the distance from the deck to the startop\nwihtin a few minutes of indulging himself. (At least, he does not remark\non the passage of time or become concerned over needing to eat or drink.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then your quarrel is with Wolfe, not me. The text says what it says. Like I\nsaid before, the Wall of Nessus just can't be that tall and not be visible\nfrom ground level virtually anywhere in the city, either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps a hill or other rise of land intervenes?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This eclipse business just isn't that hard. All the Ship has to do is\ntravel\nin a straight line between the sun and Urth, at the appropriate distance\nto\nachieve eclipse, and veer to one side to uncover the sun at the right\nmoment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A straight line with a sudden veer require the removal of gravity and\ninertia from the picture. Not that the Yesodis can't do that if they\nneed to, but why bother with sails at all if you can do that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed. And why bother manning and operating the Ship at all when they can\nuse a \"dimensional portal\" (your term) to move people (and maybe planets)\nfrom Yesod to Briah, and time-walk to anywhen?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Food for thought, indeed." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<485254FF.8080200@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-13T11:07:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<484E4968.2090907@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nThe worldwide upheavals may have been considered necessary to do away \nwith Abaia, Erebus, and their ilk. It makes sense that something \ncatastrophic would be required, and you'd want to do them as a batch to \nprevent the survivors of a first strike to grow stronger by taking up \nthe resources of their dead rivals.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Ushas upheavals probably didn't destroy Abaia. Juturna, speaking as \nthe White Fountain arrives, says he is still planning to \"tame\" \n(enslave) the human race (Urth XLIII). The religion predicted that the \nNew Sun would \"kill Abaia\" (Sword XXI), but that was probably wishful \nthinking. It is unlikely that a flood would kill a being whose element \nis water. (However, it was a setback for Abaia's plans in some way, or \nhe wouldn't have sent Idas to try to wreck Severian's mission on the Ship).\n\nSeverian accepts this fact a moment later. He realizes that Abaia will \nbe left to trouble humanity, like the anvil in the metaphor of the \naquastor Malrubius (in Citadel XXIV). The existence of an adversary is \nnecessary for the advancement of the human race into Heiros. Severian \nfinds Juturna is a name to be feared about a century later when he \nreturns to Ushas (Urth LI).\n\nI'd like to weigh in on why Juturna saves Sev from drowning. She says \n\"It hasn' t yet occurred. It will, because you spoke.\" The motive for \nsaving him can't be in hopes of influencing him not to bring the New \nSun; she's seen that he will do it.\n\nIn Citadel XXVIII, Sev says \"I am not the first Severian... thus it was \nthat... the undine thrust me up when it seemed I must drown. (Yet surely \nthe first Severian did not; something had already begun to reshape my \nlife).\" Juturna must realize the same thing: even if she doesn't save \nhim he will not drown. (Or he may have drowned and become an aquastor, \nas some have theorized about the skull Sev finds underwater -- I like \nthat idea). Something kept him on the path of his destiny at the very \nbeginning. If the Heirogrammates didn't intervene until they saw him \nbecome autarch once on his own, then I suggest that divine intervention \ncaused that first aquastor.\n\nBy planning to save him as he says, Juturna increases her chances of \ngetting out of the House Absolute alive. It's the reason Sev orders her \nto be spared. Knowing that Sev owes her something, she can try some \nfurther temptations later. (One such temptation is showing him the path \nto the past, where he was very nearly killed)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370806130725h18b9eb23h4a43b6db781b825b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-13T14:25:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<485254FF.8080200@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 4:07 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nThe Ushas upheavals probably didn't destroy Abaia. Juturna, speaking as the\nWhite Fountain arrives, says he is still planning to \"tame\" (enslave) the\nhuman race (Urth XLIII). The religion predicted that the New Sun would \"kill\nAbaia\" (Sword XXI), but that was probably wishful thinking. It is unlikely\nthat a flood would kill a being whose element is water. (However, it was a\nsetback for Abaia's plans in some way, or he wouldn't have sent Idas to try\nto wreck Severian's mission on the Ship)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It isn't just a flood; new continents are thrust up. If Abaia, who is pretty\nhuge, couldn't get out of the way in time, he would be left a rotting\ncorpse on one of the new continents.\n\nWhich might explain the immense ribcage over New Crobuzon, come\nto think of it ...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<485288BC.2060505@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-13T14:48:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<485254FF.8080200@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The worldwide upheavals may have been considered necessary to do away \nwith Abaia, Erebus, and their ilk. It makes sense that something \ncatastrophic would be required, and you'd want to do them as a batch \nto prevent the survivors of a first strike to grow stronger by taking \nup the resources of their dead rivals.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Ushas upheavals probably didn't destroy Abaia. Juturna, speaking as \nthe White Fountain arrives, says he is still planning to \"tame\" \n(enslave) the human race (Urth XLIII). The religion predicted that the \nNew Sun would \"kill Abaia\" (Sword XXI), but that was probably wishful \nthinking. It is unlikely that a flood would kill a being whose element \nis water. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please recall, it's not a conventional top-down raining flood, but \ninvolves oceans slopping out of their basins to cover the land, and \neventually the land turning over, continents sinking and new ones rising \nto take their place, which implies many of the deep trenches where Abaia \nand his forces might lurk will close up or be flushed out. Everything \nthat lives on Urth has a near-certain chance to die, and it's not likely \nthere's a special Yesodi effort to preserve Abaia in his own botanic garden." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(However, it was a setback for Abaia's plans in some way, or \nhe wouldn't have sent Idas to try to wreck Severian's mission on the Ship)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given the Ship's nature, we have no way to be sure when Idas was sent or \nfrom which version of Severian's history they boarded." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<19891128-19A8-43F1-860B-1E4DEF951772@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-13T14:52:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370806130725h18b9eb23h4a43b6db781b825b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 13, 2008, at 9:25 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhich might explain the immense ribcage over New Crobuzon, come\nto think of it ...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that Bas-Lag is flat.\n\nI think it's also carried on the back of a giant turtle, and there are \nsome elephants involved, but that's just speculation.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c8cdf3$b02c4f20$f0d04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-14T07:53:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<19891128-19A8-43F1-860B-1E4DEF951772@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nI'd like to weigh in on why Juturna saves Sev from drowning. She says\n\"It hasn' t yet occurred. It will, because you spoke.\" The motive for\nsaving him can't be in hopes of influencing him not to bring the New\nSun; she's seen that he will do it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Because you seem to have done homework in the archives, I assume you\nhave read what I said on this subject a couple years ago and won't repeat\nit. Looking back on that stuff, maybe I was reasoning from a false premise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In Citadel XXVIII, Sev says \"I am not the first Severian... thus it was\nthat... the undine thrust me up when it seemed I must drown. (Yet surely\nthe first Severian did not; something had already begun to reshape my\nlife).\" Juturna must realize the same thing: even if she doesn't save\nhim he will not drown. (Or he may have drowned and become an aquastor,\nas some have theorized about the skull Sev finds underwater -- I like\nthat idea). Something kept him on the path of his destiny at the very\nbeginning. If the Heirogrammates didn't intervene until they saw him\nbecome autarch once on his own, then I suggest that divine intervention\ncaused that first aquastor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Setting aside for now the part about the first Severian (aka \"Sev1\" in a\nrelated past discussion) and the drowning stuff, maybe I was wrong to assume\nthat Juturna experienced time in reverse order, as B, F, & O seem to do.\nThat is, though our Sev (aka \"Sev2\") spoke to her in the throne room as the\nConciliator and she had no memory of having saved him from drowning in the\nGyoll, his words may not have been prophesy in the usual sense; in this case\nthe \"future\" action of a person living backwards in time.\n\nIt is easier to believe that Juturna experiences time in the usual order,\nwhich avoids some otherwise logical difficulties I have pointed out before.\nShe doesn't remember saving him because she hasn't done it yet, not because\nshe is living her life backwards; it is because she is experiencing the fact\nof Sev having brought the New Sun. With the New Sun a reality that can't be\nundone (*), she is bowing to logical necessity. That is, she *will* use the\nCorridors of Time to go back to when he was a boy and save him, regardless\nof her personal or political inclinations, *because* that is in fact what\nhappened. The fact that the Conciliator is standing there telling her so is\nthe incontrovertible proof.\n\nHer action will close a time loop that began that day in the Gyoll, which is\nwhat Sev meant when he said that \"those who walk the corridors walked back\nto the time when he was young, and my own story -- as I have given it here\nin so many pages -- began.\" (CITADEL, XXXVIII) He meant that literally. His\nmanuscript begins with that day at the Gyoll, never mind that the first two\nchapters are in reverse order of events. The \"he\" in the quote is Sev1; the\nother two pronouns refer to Sev2.\n\n(*) After Ushas is born there cannot be an infinite number of excursions in\nUrth's past to try to stop it; at some point all such efforts must cease." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By planning to save him as he says, Juturna increases her chances of\ngetting out of the House Absolute alive. It's the reason Sev orders her\nto be spared. Knowing that Sev owes her something, she can try some\nfurther temptations later. (One such temptation is showing him the path\nto the past, where he was very nearly killed)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Juturna wasn't worried about dying in the House Absolute; she could have\navoided the whole scene by not going there in the first place at\nconsiderable effort. But it's the other end of the time loop. Questions of\nvolition become problematic when time travel is involved, but it comes with\nthe territory. \n\nBack to Sev1 and that day at the river. This business is even more\ncomplicated than it appears at first glance. To begin with, there are at\nleast four factions who can walk the Corridors; the Hiero-dudes (to use\nAndrew's term); Abaia & Co. (including Juturna); the Green Man and Sev1, to\nsay nothing of Sev2, with each faction having conflicting interests. Part of\nit depends on whether Sev1 went to Ushas and won a New Sun or not. Some say\nyes, some no. If he did, trying to sort out who did what to whom, and why,\ngets hairy. But I think the main when was that day at the river. There is\nalso a question as to whether Sev1 and Sev2 maintained discreet lives after\ntheir paths diverged when someone intervened in Sev1's life, given that Sev1\nbecame a time walker, or if they were the same person who lived for a week\nas the Conciliator in Typhon's time.\n\nThis needs its own thread.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080614111437.DAE742003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-14T11:14:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c8cdf3$b02c4f20$f0d04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:53:02 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\n\n[Cogent things about about Juturna, Sev1, Sev2 etc]\n\nJust reiterating & summarising my theory:\n\nJuturna goes back not just to save Sev but to drag him under, \ntangled in her hair (which he mistakes for the trailing roots of \nthe water lillies or whatever they are). \n\nThe effect of this is inter alia is to delay his return from the \nriver and so bring about his meeting with Vodalus. Also, I imagine, \nshe does stuff to Sev's brain so that he will be be drawn to \nVodalus, and so on (noting that Sev has heard almost nothing about \nVodalus at the time he meets him & that his sudden allegiance is \nahrd to explain otherwise).\n\nThis sets up the divergence between Sev1 and Sev2 - as Sev (ie, \nSev2) says, the graveyard scene is what sets everything else in \nmotion, which is the reason why he starts his narrative with it.\n\nWihout it, I believe, Sev1 leaves the Guild with Triskele, in \neffect acting out Sev2's musing about a Triskele heading north to \nthe wars with a new master. \n\nSilkHorn's meeting with Sev at the end of SS puts things back on a \nSev1-track. No Sev2, no New Sun, no Juturna going back to interfere \n..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080614113623.1CDB62003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-14T11:36:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080614111437.DAE742003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "BTW, did anybody ever make anything more of Juturna's line:\n\n\"Catch Catodon ... Cast out his conation.\"\n\nIt atually looks a bit like a cryptic crossword clue, but that \ndoesn't help me much. It's easy enough to gloss it, but why Catodon \n(sperm whale?), why express herself in this way etc.\n\nAlso: what were she and Baldanders doing in Valeria's audience \nchamber anyway? Even if you can think of reasons why they might \nwant to warn her, what good would such a warning do?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4853C2CD.8060905@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-14T13:08:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080614113623.1CDB62003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nBTW, did anybody ever make anything more of Juturna's line:\n\n\"Catch Catodon ... Cast out his conation.\"\n\nIt atually looks a bit like a cryptic crossword clue, but that \ndoesn't help me much. It's easy enough to gloss it, but why Catodon \n(sperm whale?), why express herself in this way etc.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The phrase is in parallel to \"He's tried to tame you instead,\" so I take \nit as a poetic expansion of the same concept. Abaia wants to rule \nhumanity, and cast out their contation (human will), making them like \nthe Ascians. The phrase may be worded this way to refer to Hobbes' \nLeviathan. Hobbes argued for an absolute monarchy to prevent anarchy. \nAbaia may be thinking along similar lines. Leviathan is the untameable \nsea monster from Job 41, which has sometimes been identified with the \nsperm whale." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also: what were she and Baldanders doing in Valeria's audience \nchamber anyway? Even if you can think of reasons why they might \nwant to warn her, what good would such a warning do?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Juturna was probably offering the undine's gift of water-breathing in \nexchange for loyalty to Abaia. If the autarch was under Abaia's control \nhe would achieve a partial victory. He could claim legitimate rule over \nthe survivors of the Commonwealth.\n\nBaldanders said \"What I am about to say is not important. But I will say \nit in order that you will listen to what is important afterward.\" He was \ninterrupted by the arrival of Juturna and then the sea, so he never got \nto his main point. I suspect he wanted something from the House \nAbsolute, and my guess is the Book of Mirrors. \"Many will seek to flee \nby that road if the pelagic argosy sights land,\" the old autarch said. \nValeria lacked the memories of the autarchs, so Baldanders might have \nbeen offering to show her how to use the Book to escape in order to \nobtain it for his own study and use." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4853CE0A.30604@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-14T13:56:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080614111437.DAE742003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nThis sets up the divergence between Sev1 and Sev2 - as Sev (ie, \nSev2) says, the graveyard scene is what sets everything else in \nmotion, which is the reason why he starts his narrative with it.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I prefer to call him \"SevN\" instead of Sev2. It is clear that his life \nwas rewritten multiple times. I think Wolfe tries to avoid time \nparadoxes. He usually thinks through the way that something could have \nhappened without a time-loop, and then applies knowledge from that pass \nto modify the next one. For example, he had Sev construct arches so that \nhe could be found and helped in the far past, rather than rely on a \nparadoxical time-loop where he is only found because of his interaction \nwith Apu-Punchau." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wihout it, I believe, Sev1 leaves the Guild with Triskele, in \neffect acting out Sev2's musing about a Triskele heading north to \nthe wars with a new master. \n\nSilkHorn's meeting with Sev at the end of SS puts things back on a \nSev1-track. No Sev2, no New Sun, no Juturna going back to interfere\nI found your theory in the archives recently, and I like it. It makes \nsense that Wolfe would have planted clues to what Sev's life would have \nbeen like without any interference. I don't think that the LS/SS novels \nwere conceived that far in advance, though. I think Wolfe took the \nopportunity of the new series to repair an old ending which no longer \nsatisfied him. As the whole set of books is now, it strengthens your \ncase that the NS ending was an unhappy one." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-14T17:09:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c8cdf3$b02c4f20$f0d04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 14, 2008, at 2:53 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThis needs its own thread." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to propose that every character in the entire saga is \nactually some iteration of Severian.\n\nI don't think I want to *defend* that proposition, necessarily.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48540090.1010003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-14T17:32:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll accept this as the new thread even though the first theory is a \njoke. I'll try to propose a self-consistent set of rewrites of Sev's \nlife around the drowning incident.\n\nSev1. (thalassocrat version) didn't nearly drown and got home that night \nwithout incident. He heals and cares for Triskele. When the dog is \ndiscovered, he runs north to the war and becomes a soldier. He does not \nbecome autarch; Baldanders probably does and no New Sun is brought.\n\nSev2. Identified as a good candidate for the New Sun because the story \nof his healed dog got around. His ancestry is checked and he is found to \nbe a grandson of Fechin (b sharp theory). Hierogrammates begin to \ninfluence his life to make him an autarch.\n\nSev3. Abaia wants Sev stopped, so Juturna drowns him by catching him in \nher hair.\n\nSev4. Hierogrammates make an aquastor of Sev and save him. The woman who \noffered him soup was working for them -- the food was to help him \nstabilize but she misjudged the temperature. This Sev glimpsed the face \nof Juturna and believes she saved him.\n\nSevN. Many rewrites later, Sev has brought the New Sun. He tells Juturna \nshe saved him, and she goes along with this in hopes of tempting him in \nthe future." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8cea7$b05240e0$d1cc4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-15T05:21:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4853CE0A.30604@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nThis sets up the divergence between Sev1 and Sev2 - as Sev (ie,\nSev2) says, the graveyard scene is what sets everything else in\nmotion, which is the reason why he starts his narrative with it.\n\nWihout it, I believe, Sev1 leaves the Guild with Triskele, in\neffect acting out Sev2's musing about a Triskele heading north to\nthe wars with a new master.\n\nSilkHorn's meeting with Sev at the end of SS puts things back on a\nSev1-track. No Sev2, no New Sun, no Juturna going back to interfere\n..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Without the Conciliator, there would have been no Claw, no order of\nPelerines to guard it. If no Pelerines, what was the monastic order\nCatherine ran away from that led to her imprisonment by the Guild, which led\nto both Severians having been born into their clutches in the first place?\n\nThe biggest problem I have with this theory is that it violates the\nintegrity of the Urth Cycle as a stand-alone work, and it turns the sense of\nit upside-down in doing so. It also dooms Urth to the ice-future, the\n\"do-nothing\" future that Wolfe has disparaged.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080615062600.162721A003A@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-15T06:25:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8cea7$b05240e0$d1cc4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:21:34 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\n\nWithout the Conciliator, there would have been no Claw, no order \nof\nPelerines to guard it. If no Pelerines, what was the monastic \norder\nCatherine ran away from that led to her imprisonment by the Guild, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "which led\nto both Severians having been born into their clutches in the \nfirst place?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe I'm missing your point, but surely you have that problem \nhowever you think of Sev1? Unless you believe that he became the \nConciliator too, which I can't see at all.\n\nOn the other hand, I don't think it's too much to imagine a \nparallel to the Pelerines, based on something other than the New \nSun religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The biggest problem I have with this theory is that it violates \nthe\nintegrity of the Urth Cycle as a stand-alone work, and it turns \nthe sense of\nit upside-down in doing so. It also dooms Urth to the ice-future, \nthe\n\"do-nothing\" future that Wolfe has disparaged." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the first point, I don't agree. Even taking BOTNS alone, without \nUOTNS, I think we are at least invited to imagine that maybe it's \nnot going to be all beer and skittles when the New Sun arrives. \n\nPerhaps the biggest hint: Sev himself, a torturer with no hint of \nChrist-liness apart from his recapitulation of parts of Jesus' \nlife: what kind of salvation can we expect from him? The inversion \nis there, hidden if at all by its obviousness.\n\nAlso, the cosmology propounded by aquastor-Malrubius - what is \nremotely attractive about it? Dt Talos' play. The hints in the \nstories of Gabriel and the small angel and Gabriel versus the cock, \nthat perhaps the shadowy higher beings are not connected to the \nIncreate. \n\nThe most creepy sign: Sav praying at the Pelerines' altar, but in \nthe end praying only to himself. By the end of UOTNS we know that \nSev is the Conciliator. Put the two together and you have at least \na broad hint that there's nothing very holy going on here.\n\nI think that Wolfe intended this to be a \"horror story\" from the \nstart, but even if I'm wrong he at least allowed plenty of scope \nfor ambivalence.\n\nOn the second point, I take Wolfe as referring to Urth society as \ndepicted in UOTNS, dwindling on a resource-depleted world. But in \nthe larger context, this is not the condition of humanity as a \nwhole - it's already spread, it's not degenerating on Urth. It \ndoesn't need Urth reborn to save humanity from the ice death." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4854DFBC.90506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-15T09:24:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080615062600.162721A003A@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nAlso, the cosmology propounded by aquastor-Malrubius - what is \nremotely attractive about it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the core point. I believe many readers do find this cosmology \nhas a certain epic beauty. \"We shall not go to the stars again until we \ngo as a divinity\" reminds me of the Omega Point of Pierre Teilhard de \nChardin. With each cycle the Heiros shape better Heirogrammates, and the \nHeirogrammates shape better Heiros. This could be the working out of the \nwill of God in Wolfe's universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The most creepy sign: Sav praying at the Pelerines' altar, but in \nthe end praying only to himself. By the end of UOTNS we know that \nSev is the Conciliator. Put the two together and you have at least \na broad hint that there's nothing very holy going on here.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In an interview Wolfe once said, \"I don't think of Severian as being a \nChrist figure; I think of Severian as being a Christian figure. He is a \nman who has been born into a very perverse background, who is gradually \ntrying to become better.\" I don't think Sev's prayer is at all creepy. \nHe is praying based on his conception of a God who has graced a human \nlife in a miraculous way, and who can say if he is wrong about that?\n\nI said in another message that the Triskele theory strengthens your case \n-- it does to a certain extent, but not unambiguously. Just because Sev \nhas a longer relationship with Triskele does not make it certain that he \nwon't go on to bring the New Sun as before." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080615113846.05E4B1A003A@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-15T11:38:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4854DFBC.90506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 19:24:12 +1000 Dave Tallman \n wrote:\nI don't think Sev's prayer is at all \ncreepy. \nHe is praying based on his conception of a God who has graced a \nhuman \nlife in a miraculous way, and who can say if he is wrong about \nthat?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My point is just that it isn't God he reaches with that prayer; \nit's himself. \n\n(Citadel XIV) \"My mind was among the starry wastes, far from Urth \n... and it seemed to me that that to which I spoke was farther \nstill - I had come, as it were, to the walls of the universe, and \nnow shouted through the walls to one who waited outside ... I \nseemed to see ... through the chink in the universe to a new \nuniverse bathed in golden light, where my listener knelt to hear \nme. ... I could see a face and folded hands, and the opening, like \na tunnel, running deep into a human head ... I was whispering into \nmy own ear ...\"\n\nNow you can take that (at least) two ways. Maybe \"the Outsider\" \nhears him, and refers the prayer on Sev himself, indicating that \nSev is indeed some kind of ersatz-Jesus. To me, that is an \noverwhelmingly unlikely. \n\nMuch more likely, this is an indication that the New Sun religion \nbegins and ends with Sev. It has no connection to the true \n\"Outsider\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "<9834.67.142.130.20.1213535011.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-06-15T13:03:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080615113846.05E4B1A003A@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe told me that Severian's powers are his as a manifestation of the\nBody of Christ.\n\nAt the 2002 WorldCon.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 19:24:12 +1000 Dave Tallman\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think Sev's prayer is at all\ncreepy.\nHe is praying based on his conception of a God who has graced a\nhuman\nlife in a miraculous way, and who can say if he is wrong about\nthat?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My point is just that it isn't God he reaches with that prayer;\nit's himself.\n\n(Citadel XIV) \"My mind was among the starry wastes, far from Urth\n... and it seemed to me that that to which I spoke was farther\nstill - I had come, as it were, to the walls of the universe, and\nnow shouted through the walls to one who waited outside ... I\nseemed to see ... through the chink in the universe to a new\nuniverse bathed in golden light, where my listener knelt to hear\nme. ... I could see a face and folded hands, and the opening, like\na tunnel, running deep into a human head ... I was whispering into\nmy own ear ...\"\n\nNow you can take that (at least) two ways. Maybe \"the Outsider\"\nhears him, and refers the prayer on Sev himself, indicating that\nSev is indeed some kind of ersatz-Jesus. To me, that is an\noverwhelmingly unlikely.\n\nMuch more likely, this is an indication that the New Sun religion\nbegins and ends with Sev. It has no connection to the true\n\"Outsider\".\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Wells", "address": "adavid_wells at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-15T17:31:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<48540090.1010003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What a fascinating discussion. I have never really understood exactly how Juturna's intervention and the Sev1/2/N divergence worked (about a decade ago my wild and unsubstantiated theory that Severian had drowned and unknowingly self-resurrected via the \"Claw\" was robustly, and rightly, criticised by this forum).\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:09:50 -0500 Adam Thornton adam at io.com wrote:\nI'd like to propose that every character in the entire saga is actually some iteration of Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This, though not meant seriously, is interesting and inventive. It reminds me (warning: off topic) of Richard Feynman's comment in his lecture accepting his Nobel Prize for Physics (see http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1965/feynman-lecture.html) that \"I received a telephone call one day at the graduate college at Princeton from Professor Wheeler, in which he said, \"Feynman, I know why all electrons have the same charge and the same mass\" \"Why?\" \"Because, they are all the same electron!\". The idea being that a single electron bounces back and forth from the Big Bang to the Big Crunch, becoming a positron going backwards in time when it \"bounces\".\n \nOr maybe not.\n \n...but the thing that most puzzles me about Sev1/2/N is that it appears so unclear in what way(s) the interested factions actually benefit or lose out when SevN brings the New Sun. Is this because Wolfe is commenting on the uncertain effects of political machinations (and thus, by implication, that their most important effect is on the egos of the machinators)? Or was it supposed to be clear whether the NS was a happy or unhappy ending (for whomever) and Wolfe didn't really succeed in explaining this? (As Dave Tallman seems to be suggesting)?\n \nnewt\n \n_________________________________________________________________\nGreat deals on almost anything at eBay.co.uk. Search, bid, find and win on eBay today!\nhttp://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000004ukm/direct/01/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002101c8cf11$c765f280$39ce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-15T18:00:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<9834.67.142.130.20.1213535011.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew quoted and wrote:\nWithout the Conciliator, there would have been no Claw, no order\nof\nPelerines to guard it. If no Pelerines, what was the monastic\norder\nCatherine ran away from that led to her imprisonment by the Guild," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "which led\nto both Severians having been born into their clutches in the\nfirst place?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe I'm missing your point, but surely you have that problem\nhowever you think of Sev1? Unless you believe that he became the\nConciliator too, which I can't see at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If neither version of Sev became the Conciliator, then no one did. The\ncircumstances of his birth were contrived, and some power or powers had been\norchestrating the event long before that, possibly for generations, for the\nexpress purpose of producing the man who would bring a new sun. Time travel\nwas used to do it.\n\nWould Ymar have established the autarchy without the Conciliator? Doubtful,\nbecause if the Conciliator hadn't killed the Prefect, the Guild would not\nhave changed. Would Talos even have written the play? No, because Canog\ncould not have heard the Conciliator's speech or written his book upon which\nthe play was based. The Curtain wall would not have been breached, which had\nallowed young Sev to sneak off to play and dream in that mausoleum that\nwould probably not exist with those particular symbols above its door. The\nConciliator religion was a necessary component of the circumstances\ngoverning and influencing both Severians' formative years.\n\nIf you break the causal chain that stretches from the arrival of the New Sun\nand Ushas, all the way back to the Conciliator in Typhon's time and forward\nagain to Ushas, you radically alter the circumstances that put Sev1 in the\nMatachin tower. Without a Conciliator, Sev1 almost certainly would not have\nbeen there to bring a dead dog back to life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, I don't think it's too much to imagine a\nparallel to the Pelerines, based on something other than the New\nSun religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The biggest problem I have with this theory is that it violates\nthe\nintegrity of the Urth Cycle as a stand-alone work, and it turns\nthe sense of\nit upside-down in doing so. It also dooms Urth to the ice-future,\nthe\n\"do-nothing\" future that Wolfe has disparaged." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the first point, I don't agree. Even taking BOTNS alone, without\nUOTNS, I think we are at least invited to imagine that maybe it's\nnot going to be all beer and skittles when the New Sun arrives." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps the biggest hint: Sev himself, a torturer with no hint of\nChrist-liness apart from his recapitulation of parts of Jesus'\nlife: what kind of salvation can we expect from him? The inversion\nis there, hidden if at all by its obviousness.\n\nAlso, the cosmology propounded by aquastor-Malrubius - what is\nremotely attractive about it? Dt Talos' play. The hints in the\nstories of Gabriel and the small angel and Gabriel versus the cock,\nthat perhaps the shadowy higher beings are not connected to the\nIncreate.\n\nThe most creepy sign: Sav praying at the Pelerines' altar, but in\nthe end praying only to himself. By the end of UOTNS we know that\nSev is the Conciliator. Put the two together and you have at least\na broad hint that there's nothing very holy going on here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Back to the dog. Where did the supernatural ability to raise the dead come\nfrom, an ability not even the god-like Hierogrammates possessed? You can\nargue that Sev2 got it from the White Fountain he fathered in Yesod, and\nthat by the time of his boyhood had completed most of its journey to Urth,\neven if he was unaware at the time of his mystical connection to it. How\nelse could Sev1 have done it? The alternative is to believe that Sev was\nborn with the raw power, which makes him a candidate for divinity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that Wolfe intended this to be a \"horror story\" from the\nstart, but even if I'm wrong he at least allowed plenty of scope\nfor ambivalence.\n\nOn the second point, I take Wolfe as referring to Urth society as\ndepicted in UOTNS, dwindling on a resource-depleted world. But in\nthe larger context, this is not the condition of humanity as a\nwhole - it's already spread, it's not degenerating on Urth. It\ndoesn't need Urth reborn to save humanity from the ice death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, but Urth is still the ancestral home of the race, and as such is\nimportant to the designs of both the Hierogrammates and the Increate.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14189.67.142.130.28.1213555196.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-06-15T18:39:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian drowns in the river Gyoll.\n\nEverything else that happens in BOTNS and UOTNS are hallucinations that he\nundergoes while dying.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What a fascinating discussion. I have never really understood exactly how\nJuturna's intervention and the Sev1/2/N divergence worked (about a decade\nago my wild and unsubstantiated theory that Severian had drowned and\nunknowingly self-resurrected via the \"Claw\" was robustly, and rightly,\ncriticised by this forum).\n\nOn Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:09:50 -0500 Adam Thornton adam at io.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd like to propose that every character in the entire saga is actually\nsome iteration of Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This, though not meant seriously, is interesting and inventive. It reminds\nme (warning: off topic) of Richard Feynman's comment in his lecture\naccepting his Nobel Prize for Physics (see\nhttp://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1965/feynman-lecture.html)\nthat \"I received a telephone call one day at the graduate college at\nPrinceton from Professor Wheeler, in which he said, \"Feynman, I know why\nall electrons have the same charge and the same mass\" \"Why?\" \"Because,\nthey are all the same electron!\". The idea being that a single electron\nbounces back and forth from the Big Bang to the Big Crunch, becoming a\npositron going backwards in time when it \"bounces\".\n\nOr maybe not.\n\n...but the thing that most puzzles me about Sev1/2/N is that it appears so\nunclear in what way(s) the interested factions actually benefit or lose\nout when SevN brings the New Sun. Is this because Wolfe is commenting on\nthe uncertain effects of political machinations (and thus, by implication,\nthat their most important effect is on the egos of the machinators)? Or\nwas it supposed to be clear whether the NS was a happy or unhappy ending\n(for whomever) and Wolfe didn't really succeed in explaining this? (As\nDave Tallman seems to be suggesting)?\n\nnewt\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nGreat deals on almost anything at eBay.co.uk. Search, bid, find and win on\neBay today!\nhttp://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000004ukm/direct/01/_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<975CEC9A-D5B5-466C-A617-B114A90FE249@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-15T18:41:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<14189.67.142.130.28.1213555196.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 15, 2008, at 1:39 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nSeverian drowns in the river Gyoll.\n\nEverything else that happens in BOTNS and UOTNS are hallucinations \nthat he\nundergoes while dying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which makes the Gyoll Owl Creek, of course.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4855771C.8000509@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-15T20:10:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This, though not meant seriously, is interesting and inventive. It reminds me (warning: off topic) of Richard Feynman'scomment ... that \"I received a telephone call one day at the graduate college at Princeton from Professor Wheeler, in which he said, \"Feynman, I know why all electrons have the same charge and the same mass\" \"Why?\" \"Because, they are all the same electron!\". The idea being that a single electron bounces back and forth from the Big Bang to the Big Crunch, becoming a positron going backwards in time when it \"bounces\".\n \nOr maybe not.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. This very theory is referred to in \"Seven American Nights.\" \nThe narrator takes it as an established fact in his contemporary physics \n(about a century in our future)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<485595D8.8090606@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2008-06-15T22:21:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<4855771C.8000509@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian is not actually /the/ Conciliator. The Conciliator, as should \nbe obvious to anyone who knows Wolfe's religious background, is Christ. \nIn the timeline of the first Severian, the Conciliator was a dim memory \nof Christ and his religion a dim memory of Christianity. His mother \ncould still run away from an order of nuns, because nuns existed before \nSev's turn as a \"Conciliator-like\" figure.\n\nSeverian, as a \"Christ-like\" figure, renewed these dim memories and \ncaused that aspect of society and his own personality to be slightly \ndifferent.\n\nIt was all part of the hierodules' plan.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-16T12:55:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<485595D8.8090606@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave Lebling says: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian is not actually /the/ Conciliator. The Conciliator, as should \nbe obvious to anyone who knows Wolfe's religious background, is Christ. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm pretty convinced that there has never been a Jesus on Urth (and that is\na major underlying theme of the series). Hence the Norse name \"Urth\" and\nthe many allusions to pre-Christian gods and monsters ruling Urth long after \nthe equivalent time period of Jesus on Earth. The occasional reference to roods\nor Bible verses can be attributed to souvenirs brought from a more spiritually \nadvanced univiverse (Yesod?) to Briah by people (mostly Father Inire) able to \nmake such travels.\n\nDave Tallman writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I prefer to call him \"SevN\" instead of Sev2. It is clear that his life \nwas rewritten multiple times." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I lean against accepting the SevN concept because I think iterations of Severian \nare finite- tied to the 5 coffins in Sev's mausoleum. Two of them open means \ntwo have been released, with three more to go, if needed. Was Sev1 Ymar? or \nSeverian in a different time-line or universe (Abaddon?). \n\nI admit this is a literary interpretation, not scientific. I think Wolfe puts avatars of \nhimself in his work and much of the most difficult stuff to decipher comes from his \nown personal experiences and thoughts, distorted and veiled. I see the mausoleum\nas a 5HoC reference....Number 5 and Severian seem very similar to me.....maybe\nWolfe at the time of writing BotNS figured 5 literary avatars of himself would be \nenough." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40806160830l4c537036v812999669783c232@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-16T15:30:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nI'm pretty convinced that there has never been a Jesus on Urth (and that is\na major underlying theme of the series). Hence the Norse name \"Urth\" and\nthe many allusions to pre-Christian gods and monsters ruling Urth long after\nthe equivalent time period of Jesus on Earth. The occasional reference to roods\nor Bible verses can be attributed to souvenirs brought from a more spiritually\nadvanced univiverse (Yesod?) to Briah by people (mostly Father Inire) able to\nmake such travels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, every citizen in the Commonwealth is named for a\nsaint, and the legend of the martyrdom of St. Catherine is essentially the\nsame. I'm convinced it's a post-Catholic culture. Jesus may have been\nforgotten, but many elements of Christianity remain. (There are also altars,\ncandles, shewbread, etc.).\n\nI lean against accepting the SevN concept because I think iterations\nof Severian" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "are finite- tied to the 5 coffins in Sev's mausoleum. Two of them open means\ntwo have been released, with three more to go, if needed. Was Sev1 Ymar? or\nSeverian in a different time-line or universe (Abaddon?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my way of counting, every use of knowledge from the future to change the\npast produces another rewrite of Sev's history, and there is evidence for\nmany such interventions in his life. I'd never heard that interpretation of\nthe multiple coffins. It's an interesting speculation." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001c01c8cfe7$29be6e00$3ccf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-16T19:28:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40806160830l4c537036v812999669783c232@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Lebling wrote:\nSeverian is not actually /the/ Conciliator. The Conciliator, as should\nbe obvious to anyone who knows Wolfe's religious background, is Christ.\nIn the timeline of the first Severian, the Conciliator was a dim memory\nof Christ and his religion a dim memory of Christianity. [snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Huh. My second thought after reading that was about the scene depicted on an\ninner door of the Old Autarch's whorehouse: \"It had a stained-glass insert\nshowing the Temptation.\" (SHADOW, IX, second page) Three possibilities for\nthe subject matter come to mind; Eve with the \"apple\" in the Garden; Jesus\nin the wilderness; Severian on Mt. Typhon. This last can be reasonably\ndismissed because it would not happen until more than a year in the future;\nonly revivified Typhon and Sev would be there, and only Sev would live to\ntell the tale. So what did the picture show?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080617000642.C31A7D032F@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-17T00:06:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<001c01c8cfe7$29be6e00$3ccf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 05:28:26 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\n\nHuh. My second thought after reading that was about the scene \ndepicted on an\ninner door of the Old Autarch's whorehouse: \"It had a stained-\nglass insert\nshowing the Temptation.\" (SHADOW, IX, second page) Three \npossibilities for\nthe subject matter come to mind; Eve with the \"apple\" in the \nGarden; Jesus\nin the wilderness; Severian on Mt. Typhon. This last can be \nreasonably\ndismissed because it would not happen until more than a year in \nthe future;\nonly revivified Typhon and Sev would be there, and only Sev would \nlive to\ntell the tale. So what did the picture show?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think \"the Temptation\" has to refer to something like it would in \nour world, which is certainly the Temptation of Eve. In Sev's \nworld, the Temptation of Meschiane. At least on the basis of Dr \nTalos' play, you can have this story without Christianity. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-17T03:01:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<20080617000642.C31A7D032F@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thalassocrat writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think \"the Temptation\" has to refer to something like it would in \nour world, which is certainly the Temptation of Eve. In Sev's \nworld, the Temptation of Meschiane. At least on the basis of Dr \nTalos' play, you can have this story without Christianity. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must agree that in this situation the play's the thing! But if I remember\nEschatology and Genesis correctly, the temptation is for Meschia, to which\nhe succumbed with Jahi in the first creation and to which he probably will \nnot succumb with the Contessa in the impending creation. Either way, the \nstory would appear in Urth's legends thanks to Canog and a visual depiction\nwould make an appropriate decoration for a brothel. Better than a \nSeverian-Typhon image, anyway." } ] }, { "message_id": "<48572BEA.7090404@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-17T03:13:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\n\nThalassocrat writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think \"the Temptation\" has to refer to something like it would in \nour world, which is certainly the Temptation of Eve. In Sev's \nworld, the Temptation of Meschiane. At least on the basis of Dr \nTalos' play, you can have this story without Christianity. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I must agree that in this situation the play's the thing! But if I remember\nEschatology and Genesis correctly, the temptation is for Meschia, to which\nhe succumbed with Jahi in the first creation and to which he probably will \nnot succumb with the Contessa in the impending creation. Either way, the \nstory would appear in Urth's legends thanks to Canog and a visual depiction\nwould make an appropriate decoration for a brothel. Better than a \nSeverian-Typhon image, anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A scene depicting a tall, dark stranger with a dashing cape and sword in \nparley with a naked body builder might not be out of place if the \nbrothel caters to minority tastes." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080617074213.2EE6F2003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-17T07:42:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<48572BEA.7090404@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:01:15 +1000 b sharp \n wrote:\n\nI must agree that in this situation the play's the thing! But if I " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "remember\nEschatology and Genesis correctly, the temptation is for Meschia, \nto which\nhe succumbed with Jahi in the first creation and to which he \nprobably will \nnot succumb with the Contessa in the impending creation. Either \nway, the \nstory would appear in Urth's legends thanks to Canog and a visual \ndepiction\nwould make an appropriate decoration for a brothel. Better than a \nSeverian-Typhon image, anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't one of the demons say something about \"the woman tempted \nme\" not working this time around? I just assumed that Dr Talos was \nworking a variation on a story which closely resembled the ones in \nGenesis. But I suppose even with that his original could have had a \nJahi tempting Meschia rather than serpent tempting Meschiane, and I \nguess the erotic-mural possibilities are maybe better that way \n(except for the hopefully very small minority interested in snake-\nsex)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<485889FD.4060604@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-18T04:07:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370806130725h18b9eb23h4a43b6db781b825b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nIt isn't just a flood; new continents are thrust up. If Abaia, who is pretty\nhuge, couldn't get out of the way in time, he would be left a rotting\ncorpse on one of the new continents.\n\nWhich might explain the immense ribcage over New Crobuzon, come\nto think of it ....\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure Abaia is that much larger than the undines. In Citadel \nXXXVII, the steersman said he heard the voices of undines coming up the \nGyoll, along with a deeper voice that gave orders, \n\"go-and-do-that-and-this-and-that.\" If that was Abaia, he's not so big \nand immobile that he can't come up the river. If so, it seems like he \ncould get out of the way of an earthquake. If Juturna could survive, so \ncould he." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4858906F.1060708@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-18T04:34:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<485889FD.4060604@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It isn't just a flood; new continents are thrust up. If Abaia, who is \npretty\nhuge, couldn't get out of the way in time, he would be left a rotting\ncorpse on one of the new continents.\n\nWhich might explain the immense ribcage over New Crobuzon, come\nto think of it ....\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure Abaia is that much larger than the undines. In Citadel \nXXXVII, the steersman said he heard the voices of undines coming up the \nGyoll, along with a deeper voice that gave orders, \n\"go-and-do-that-and-this-and-that.\" If that was Abaia, he's not so big \nand immobile that he can't come up the river. If so, it seems like he \ncould get out of the way of an earthquake. If Juturna could survive, so \ncould he." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The enormous Blue Whale's voice is louder than a jet engine and can be \nheard through water over distances of hundreds of miles, perhaps \nthousands in the absence of motorized ships, and this was documented and \npopularized signifigantly before the publication of BOTNS. The presence \nof Abaia's voice doesn't require the presence of Abaia." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4858F7B1.8000701@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-18T11:55:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4858906F.1060708@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJeff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wilson wrote:\n**The enormous Blue Whale's voice is louder than a jet engine and can be \nheard through water over distances of hundreds of miles, perhaps \nthousands in the absence of motorized ships, and this was documented and \npopularized signifigantly before the publication of BOTNS. The presence \nof Abaia's voice doesn't require the presence of Abaia.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a clever work-around, but I don't think so. The steersman said \nthat the women's voices were \"not loud but big.\" The description implies \na conversation (Citadel XXXVII): \"They would say 'so-and-so-and-so.' \nThen... the deeper voice'd say 'go-and-do-that-and-this-and-that.' I \nheard the women's voices three times and the other voice twice.\"\n\nIn Urth XLIII, Juturna speaks of Abaia's intentions in the present \ntense, without any hint that he has died or is about to. She says \"Abaia \nwould make of us a great people,\" not \"Abaia would have made of us a \ngreat people.\"\n\nDo you know of anything in the text that suggests Abaia is such a size \nthat he couldn't come up the river? The claim of the undines to be his \nbrides and sweethearts in Shadow XV also suggests they are \nsize-compatible. The legendary Abaia was an enormous magical eel that \nlived in a lake, so that doesn't imply an immobile size either." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080618133602.52A12D032F@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-18T13:36:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4858F7B1.8000701@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:55:29 +1000 Dave Tallman \n wrote:\n\nDo you know of anything in the text that suggests Abaia is such a \nsize \nthat he couldn't come up the river? The claim of the undines to be " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "his \nbrides and sweethearts in Shadow XV also suggests they are \nsize-compatible. The legendary Abaia was an enormous magical eel \nthat \nlived in a lake, so that doesn't imply an immobile size either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jonas confirms Sev's belief that Abaia et al are as big as \nmountains, not just the size of big ships. (Somewhere in Claw.)\n\nI think they survive. Baldanders tells Valeria that things living \nin the ocean certainly will, and he seems to know stuff. He also \nwarns of Erebus following the flood to do [bad stuff]. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c8d16c$82990a40$33d04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-18T17:55:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080618133602.52A12D032F@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nJonas confirms Sev's belief that Abaia et al are as big as\nmountains, not just the size of big ships. (Somewhere in Claw.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chapter VIII. \"You were correct when you said Erebus and Abaia are as great\nas mountains, and I admit that I was surprised you knew it. Most people lack\nthe imagination to conceive of anything so large, and think them no bigger\nthan houses or ships. Their actual size is so great that while they remain\non this world they can never leave the water--their own weight would crush\nthem.\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370806181102o3dff60cfr75150ff121d6202d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-18T18:02:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4858F7B1.8000701@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All that is required is that he be at least as large as the undines,\nand get trapped\nwhen the new continent arises.\n\nThat's my story and I'm sticking to it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 4:55 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nJeff\nWilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "**The enormous Blue Whale's voice is louder than a jet engine and can be\nheard through water over distances of hundreds of miles, perhaps thousands\nin the absence of motorized ships, and this was documented and popularized\nsignifigantly before the publication of BOTNS. The presence of Abaia's voice\ndoesn't require the presence of Abaia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a clever work-around, but I don't think so. The steersman said that\nthe women's voices were \"not loud but big.\" The description implies a\nconversation (Citadel XXXVII): \"They would say 'so-and-so-and-so.' Then...\nthe deeper voice'd say 'go-and-do-that-and-this-and-that.' I heard the\nwomen's voices three times and the other voice twice.\"\n\nIn Urth XLIII, Juturna speaks of Abaia's intentions in the present tense,\nwithout any hint that he has died or is about to. She says \"Abaia would make\nof us a great people,\" not \"Abaia would have made of us a great people.\"\n\nDo you know of anything in the text that suggests Abaia is such a size that\nhe couldn't come up the river? The claim of the undines to be his brides and\nsweethearts in Shadow XV also suggests they are size-compatible. The\nlegendary Abaia was an enormous magical eel that lived in a lake, so that\ndoesn't imply an immobile size either.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<123936.52650.qm@web63901.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-06-18T18:15:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<14189.67.142.130.28.1213555196.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Funny you should float that theory...In the \"Paladin of Shadows\" series by John Ringo (military-oriented \"technothriller\"), the main character foils multiple terrorist attacks, destroys a sex-trade ring, starts a military fiefdom in Georgia (the country), has lots of wild sex, etc. Over several books.\n\nEarly on in the first book, he spots a kidnapping by some terrorists and attempts to foil it by climbing into the wheel wheel of a jumbo jet. So Ringo has said the action that follows might have happened...or it might all be the delusions of the dying main character and when the plane lands in Syria, they're going to be mighty puzzled by the frozen dead guy in the wheel well.\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"When you send a man out with a gun, you create a policymaker. When his ass is on the line, he will do whatever he needs to do...And if the implications of that bothers you, the time to do something about it is before you decide to send him out.\"?(David Drake, Caught in the Crossfire)\nBlogging at TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Sun, 6/15/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13750.72.171.0.144.1213816377.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-06-18T19:12:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<123936.52650.qm@web63901.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ambrose Bierce wrote a great short story on this theme, one of his truly\nremarkable Civil War stories.\n\nThis spy was hanged, the rope broke, he fell into a river, fought his way\nout and back home, was reunited with his sweetheart......\n\nThis spy was hanged.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Funny you should float that theory...In the \"Paladin of Shadows\" series by\nJohn Ringo (military-oriented \"technothriller\"), the main character foils\nmultiple terrorist attacks, destroys a sex-trade ring, starts a military\nfiefdom in Georgia (the country), has lots of wild sex, etc. Over several\nbooks.\n\nEarly on in the first book, he spots a kidnapping by some terrorists and\nattempts to foil it by climbing into the wheel wheel of a jumbo jet. So\nRingo has said the action that follows might have happened...or it might\nall be the delusions of the dying main character and when the plane lands\nin Syria, they're going to be mighty puzzled by the frozen dead guy in the\nwheel well.\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"When you send a man out with a gun, you create a policymaker. When his\nass is on the line, he will do whatever he needs to do...And if the\nimplications of that bothers you, the time to do something about it is\nbefore you decide to send him out.\" (David Drake, Caught in the Crossfire)\nBlogging at TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Sun, 6/15/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3" } ] }, { "message_id": "<865344.23774.qm@web63915.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-06-18T19:56:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<13750.72.171.0.144.1213816377.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep, Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge, IIRC. Made into a great short film, which was, again IIRC, used when \"Twilight Zone\" (the original) tried switching to a one hour format during one season.\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"When you send a man out with a gun, you create a policymaker. When his ass is on the line, he will do whatever he needs to do...And if the implications of that bothers you, the time to do something about it is before you decide to send him out.\"?(David Drake, Caught in the Crossfire)\nBlogging at TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Wed, 6/18/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3\nTo: recursive_loop at yahoo.com, \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 3:12 PM\n\nAmbrose Bierce wrote a great short story on this theme, one of his truly\nremarkable Civil War stories.\n\nThis spy was hanged, the rope broke, he fell into a river, fought his way\nout and back home, was reunited with his sweetheart......\n\nThis spy was hanged.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Funny you should float that theory...In the \"Paladin of Shadows\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "series by" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Ringo (military-oriented \"technothriller\"), the main\ncharacter foils\nmultiple terrorist attacks, destroys a sex-trade ring, starts a military\nfiefdom in Georgia (the country), has lots of wild sex, etc. Over several\nbooks.\n\nEarly on in the first book, he spots a kidnapping by some terrorists and\nattempts to foil it by climbing into the wheel wheel of a jumbo jet. So\nRingo has said the action that follows might have happened...or it might\nall be the delusions of the dying main character and when the plane lands\nin Syria, they're going to be mighty puzzled by the frozen dead guy in\nthe\nwheel well.\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"When you send a man out with a gun, you create a policymaker. When\nhis\nass is on the line, he will do whatever he needs to do...And if the\nimplications of that bothers you, the time to do something about it is\nbefore you decide to send him out.\" (David Drake, Caught in the\nCrossfire)\nBlogging at TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Sun, 6/15/08, brunians at brunians.org \nwrote:\n\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 2:39 PM\n\nSeverian drowns in the river Gyoll.\n\nEverything else that happens in BOTNS and UOTNS are hallucinations that he\nundergoes while dying.\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0F67E983-291C-42A0-8B3C-9D4B90860D11@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-18T20:09:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<865344.23774.qm@web63915.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 18, 2008, at 2:56 PM, Fred Kiesche wrote:\nYep, Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge, IIRC. Made into a great short \nfilm, which was, again IIRC, used when \"Twilight Zone\" (the \noriginal) tried switching to a one hour format during one season." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which is why I said, days ago, \"Thus proving the Gyoll is Owl Creek.\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15856.72.171.0.142.1213822629.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-06-18T20:57:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<865344.23774.qm@web63915.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I believe that was its name.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yep, Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge, IIRC. Made into a great short film,\nwhich was, again IIRC, used when \"Twilight Zone\" (the original) tried\nswitching to a one hour format during one season.\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"When you send a man out with a gun, you create a policymaker. When his\nass is on the line, he will do whatever he needs to do...And if the\nimplications of that bothers you, the time to do something about it is\nbefore you decide to send him out.\" (David Drake, Caught in the Crossfire)\nBlogging at TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Wed, 6/18/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3\nTo: recursive_loop at yahoo.com, \"The Urth Mailing List\"\n\nDate: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 3:12 PM\n\nAmbrose Bierce wrote a great short story on this theme, one of his truly\nremarkable Civil War stories.\n\nThis spy was hanged, the rope broke, he fell into a river, fought his way\nout and back home, was reunited with his sweetheart......\n\nThis spy was hanged.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Funny you should float that theory...In the \"Paladin of Shadows\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "series by\nJohn Ringo (military-oriented \"technothriller\"), the main\ncharacter foils\nmultiple terrorist attacks, destroys a sex-trade ring, starts a military\nfiefdom in Georgia (the country), has lots of wild sex, etc. Over\nseveral\nbooks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Early on in the first book, he spots a kidnapping by some terrorists and\nattempts to foil it by climbing into the wheel wheel of a jumbo jet. So\nRingo has said the action that follows might have happened...or it might\nall be the delusions of the dying main character and when the plane\nlands\nin Syria, they're going to be mighty puzzled by the frozen dead guy in\nthe\nwheel well.\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"When you send a man out with a gun, you create a policymaker. When\nhis\nass is on the line, he will do whatever he needs to do...And if the\nimplications of that bothers you, the time to do something about it is\nbefore you decide to send him out.\" (David Drake, Caught in the\nCrossfire)\nBlogging at TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Sun, 6/15/08, brunians at brunians.org \nwrote:\n\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4859D1EF.4060604@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-19T03:26:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4858F7B1.8000701@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you know of anything in the text that suggests Abaia is such a size \nthat he couldn't come up the river? The claim of the undines to be his \nbrides and sweethearts in Shadow XV also suggests they are \nsize-compatible. The legendary Abaia was an enormous magical eel that \nlived in a lake, so that doesn't imply an immobile size either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Juturna also claims Severian could enjoy their company, despite his \nobviously smaller scale. This implies there are a variety of sizes of \nundines, and/or possibly male undines previously seduced from the land \nand given renewed growth similar to Baldanders. Idas would seem to \nconfirm that undines grow and can have voices that pass for males. Ergo, \nthe deeper voice speaking with the women doesn't necessarily have to be \nfrom Abaia, even if it is from a river-sized speaker." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4859F6D9.4080403@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-19T06:04:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<13750.72.171.0.144.1213816377.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nAmbrose Bierce wrote a great short story on this theme, one of his truly\nremarkable Civil War stories.\n\nThis spy was hanged, the rope broke, he fell into a river, fought his way\nout and back home, was reunited with his sweetheart......\n\nThis spy was hanged." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Tim Robbins film \"Jacob's Ladder\" is a much longer and less \nrewarding (except for Danny Aiello and the Disco-Cthulhu scene) \ntreatment of the same idea." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4859FC20.8060308@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-19T06:26:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080618133602.52A12D032F@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nJonas confirms Sev's belief that Abaia et al are as big as \nmountains, not just the size of big ships. (Somewhere in Claw.)\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All right, I'll accept that Jonas knows what he's talking about. The \nsimplest explanation for the conversation the steersman overheard is \nthat the deep voice was a commander subordinate to Abaia, not Abaia himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think they survive. Baldanders tells Valeria that things living \nin the ocean certainly will, and he seems to know stuff. He also \nwarns of Erebus following the flood to do [bad stuff]. \n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if Abaia didn't survive, Juturna and other sea people seem to \nbelieve in his agenda and they are capable of causing trouble. The new \nworld of Ushas will have its \"anvil.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Wells", "address": "adavid_wells at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-19T18:31:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "<4859F6D9.4080403@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org\nSeverian drowns in the river Gyoll." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Everything else that happens in BOTNS and UOTNS are hallucinations that he" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "undergoes while dying." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wonder whether Wolfe's publisher has considered pitching this to him in the interests of a Continuing Franchise:\n\nThe Recycling of the Apprentice\nI\nResurrection and Retching\n\nI coughed again and choked. Another wad of dark tangled fibers emerged with the stinking water.\nIt had all seemed so real, every sight, smell and taste remaining changeless in my mind. It seemed possible that I had experienced an incredibly detailed presentiment of my future.\nI could see a reflection in the brown water, someone standing over me and pumping the liquid from my lungs. Despite the indistinct nature of the image I began to feel sure that he was wearing a mask, when suddenly the pressure was released. When I, the torturer’s apprentice Severian, finally arose I could see only the rose bushes that lined this part of the river’s edge, hiding it from general view.\nThis had not appeared in my visions and I was unsure what it might signify. I considered whether my life might already have diverged from what I had so recently seen and already felt certain it would be my joy and curse never to forget.\nI wondered whether the guard would still be present to admit me through the gate of the necropolis.\n\nnewt ;-)\n\n_________________________________________________________________\n\nAll new Live Search at Live.com\n\nhttp://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000006ukm/direct/01/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-19T18:35:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Severian Behind Curtain #3", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 19, 2008, at 1:31 PM, David Wells wrote:\n\nThe Recycling of the Apprentice\nI\nResurrection and Retching" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a truly vile pun here about rebooting, but I am too \ngentlemanly to....damn.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA016C360F@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2008-07-10T14:50:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4859FC20.8060308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi,\n\nTim here, read the solar cycle there for the first time about 6 months ago and have re-read a few times since while working through the archives.\n\nI am almost up to real-time in the archives (thank God) but when I saw the post below I figured it was time to wade in.\n\nFor all those who think that the Hieros were in some way evil and wanted to destroy Urth I have one question; why did they need Severian?\n\nThe idea of bad guys who are evil enough to kill millions but polite enough to ask permission first kind of amuses me. \n\nIf the honest intention of the hieros had been to destroy Urth for purposes other than those stated I think they would have just done it.\n\nLooking forward to many a discussion!\nTim\n\n\nOn Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:38:33 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" > wrote: \n\nI still don't get the destruction of Urth as a punishment. \nAccording to the Hiero-dude-ish propaganda, the punishment has \nalready happened - humanity beaten back down to a primitive state \nand barred from the worlds (at least on Urth), and (presumably) the \nsun deliberately wounded to keep Urth-humanity down. Sev is \nsupposed to be an \"epitome\" who may bring the punishment to an \n*end*. If he succeeds, a New Sun will come, and humanity will \nflourish once again, and be allowed back into space. \n\nThis propaganda runs in various forms all the way from the official \nNew Sun dogma of Sev's youth, through eidolon-Malrubius' \nrevelations to him, to the gates of Yesod.\n\n[...]\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8454. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807100848o179b8ba1o228fd301a9b39017@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-10T15:48:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA016C360F@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, I'll take a quick stab at this, being of the aforementioned\n\"Hierogrammates are not as good as they seem\" persuasion. They admit to\nwanting to condition humanity to become the Hieros. This conditioning can\ncome in all sorts of forms, and the spiritual is certainly not to be\ndiscounted given how secular Urth is. My contention is that they need a\nmystical account of what they've done to Urth for it to matter, like a\ncertain other flood, for which they recruit the mostly unwitting Severian to\nact as a mystic and write The Book of the New Sun as a mystical testament to\nwhat otherwise would be a pretty secular and unpleasant occurrence.\n\nDon't forget that Urth isn't the only human-inhabited planet, and as the\nAnchorite mentions if they wanted to save the population there were less\nmurderous ways to do it - planetary evacuation in Ragnarok scenario. I\nbelieve this suggests that they instead wanted to do something else to the\npopulation, and Severian's mystical roles as Apu Punchau, the Conciliator,\nand the Sleeper may well have something to do with it. I see him as a\nsocial engineering tool.\n\nCurious about others' opinions though, myself.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:50 AM, O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI) <\nTim.O'Donnell at bankofscotland.ie > wrote:\n Hi,\n\nTim here, read the solar cycle there for the first time about 6 months ago\nand have re-read a few times since while working through the archives.\n\nI am almost up to real-time in the archives (thank God) but when I saw the\npost below I figured it was time to wade in.\n\nFor all those who think that the Hieros were in some way evil and wanted to\ndestroy Urth I have one question; why did they need Severian?\n\nThe idea of bad guys who are evil enough to kill millions but polite enough\nto ask permission first kind of amuses me.\n\nIf the honest intention of the hieros had been to destroy Urth for purposes\nother than those stated I think they would have just done it.\n\nLooking forward to many a discussion!\nTim\n\nOn Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:38:33 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" <***rclackey at" } ] }, { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA016C3611@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2008-07-10T15:55:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807100848o179b8ba1o228fd301a9b39017@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, I'll take a quick stab at this, being of the aforementioned\n\"Hierogrammates are not as good as they seem\" persuasion. They admit to\nwanting to condition humanity to become the Hieros. This conditioning can\ncome in all sorts of forms, and the spiritual is certainly not to be\ndiscounted given how secular Urth is. My contention is that they need a\nmystical account of what they've done to Urth for it to matter, like a\ncertain other flood, for which they recruit the mostly unwitting Severian to\nact as a mystic and write The Book of the New Sun as a mystical testament to\nwhat otherwise would be a pretty secular and unpleasant occurrence.\n\nDon't forget that Urth isn't the only human-inhabited planet, and as the\nAnchorite mentions if they wanted to save the population there were less\nmurderous ways to do it - planetary evacuation in Ragnarok scenario. I\nbelieve this suggests that they instead wanted to do something else to the\npopulation, and Severian's mystical roles as Apu Punchau, the Conciliator,\nand the Sleeper may well have something to do with it. I see him as a\nsocial engineering tool.\n\nCurious about others' opinions though, myself.\n\nPaul\n\n\n\n_______________\n\n\nI guess my problem with that is - why tell the humans that the Hieros are going to wipe out the planet?\nJust cause the flood anyway and then tell the survivors and those repopulating the Earth that it was a natural disaster.\nThen you could instil in the people the idea that the Hieros were the ultimate saviours of man by helping them post-flood.\nI am not a Catholic and have no particular axe to grind but any other explanation of the Hieros seems unnecessary to me.\n\nThe Hieros are a higher order of imperfect vessels attempting to become like God. \nIt doesn't mean that their solution was perfect, but that in no way means they are evil.\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8454. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807100906v5b77bd87tcbe3aabebf26e13b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-10T16:06:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA016C3611@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fundamental moral facts in this case are that 1.) we know they can save\nthe population of Urth and 2.) they choose not to. This makes any outcome\nmorally suspect according to most ethical frameworks. As long as 1.) and\n2.) are facts, the Hierogrammates cannot be good guys.\n\nIncidentally, if I remember correctly as far as terminology goes the Hieros\nare an ascended race that the Hierogrammates (aliens) need as their own\ncreators.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:55 AM, O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI) <\nTim.O'Donnell at bankofscotland.ie > wrote:\nI guess my problem with that is - why tell the humans that the Hieros are\ngoing to wipe out the planet?\nJust cause the flood anyway and then tell the survivors and those\nrepopulating the Earth that it was a natural disaster.\n\nThen you could instil in the people the idea that the Hieros were the\nultimate saviours of man by helping them post-flood.\n\nI am not a Catholic and have no particular axe to grind but any other\nexplanation of the Hieros seems unnecessary to me.\n\nThe Hieros are a higher order of imperfect vessels attempting to become\nlike God.\nIt doesn't mean that their solution was perfect, but that in no way means\nthey are evil.\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network.\nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8454. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48763C6B.1060403@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-10T16:44:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807100906v5b77bd87tcbe3aabebf26e13b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nThe fundamental moral facts in this case are that 1.) we know they can \nsave the population of Urth and 2.) they choose not to. This makes any \noutcome morally suspect according to most ethical frameworks. As long \nas 1.) and 2.) are facts, the Hierogrammates cannot be good guys." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm stuck by the parallel to the original Trek episode, \"Empath\", where \nthe crusty, mean aliens torture McCoy within a whisker of death to see \nif the mute healing empath woman can/will cure him at the cost of her \nown life, before deciding to use their limited resources to save the her \nplanet instead of others in danger.\n\nRemember that the Hierogrammates are long-lived aliens from another \ndimension with rather fluid individualism, as at least some of them \nmerge and split off intelligent parts of the greater whole. This and the \nwhole time travel issues can give them such a skew outlook or moral and \nethical values that they can be grim benefactors while still pushing \nhumanity's evil buttons early and often. C.S. Lewis might compare them \nto parents adopting a wounded war orphan from some distant land and \nforcing them to undergo painful medical procedures without explanation \nbecause they don't yet share a common language, lest the child die \nbefore one or the other can learn." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807101003tf251b72l7e91cc5667f8d0e2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-10T17:03:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<48763C6B.1060403@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems like you're challenging point 1.)\nHowever, remember that the Hierogrammates have performed stellar\nengineering, and have the ability to time travel to boot. They are not\nlikely to be resource constrained, and they are shown to be able to evacuate\nUrth as further proof. The examples you give are only interesting in a\nconstrained scenario.\n\nIt is the contention of many, and I'd bet the author to be one of them, that\n\"ethics\" is not a strictly human concept. The only ethical system according\nto which the thing the Hierogrammates are doing is a good thing is\nutilitarianism - which has more flaws than most. If they wanted to be moral\nin any other sense, they'd have to try harder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 12:44 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nPaul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The fundamental moral facts in this case are that 1.) we know they can\nsave the population of Urth and 2.) they choose not to. This makes any\noutcome morally suspect according to most ethical frameworks. As long as\n1.) and 2.) are facts, the Hierogrammates cannot be good guys." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm stuck by the parallel to the original Trek episode, \"Empath\", where the\ncrusty, mean aliens torture McCoy within a whisker of death to see if the\nmute healing empath woman can/will cure him at the cost of her own life,\nbefore deciding to use their limited resources to save the her planet\ninstead of others in danger.\n\nRemember that the Hierogrammates are long-lived aliens from another\ndimension with rather fluid individualism, as at least some of them merge\nand split off intelligent parts of the greater whole. This and the whole\ntime travel issues can give them such a skew outlook or moral and ethical\nvalues that they can be grim benefactors while still pushing humanity's evil\nbuttons early and often. C.S. Lewis might compare them to parents adopting\na wounded war orphan from some distant land and forcing them to undergo\npainful medical procedures without explanation because they don't yet share\na common language, lest the child die before one or the other can learn.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487648E3.1060003@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-10T17:37:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807101003tf251b72l7e91cc5667f8d0e2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nIt seems like you're challenging point 1.)\nHowever, remember that the Hierogrammates have performed stellar \nengineering, and have the ability to time travel to boot. They are not \nlikely to be resource constrained, and they are shown to be able to \nevacuate Urth as further proof. The examples you give are only \ninteresting in a constrained scenario." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, they evacuate everyone from Urth, then what? Where do they put the \npeople? How do they get out of being responsible for them until the end \nof time? If they are responsible for them until the end of time, how do \nthey justify withholding special treatment for the other zillion worlds \nof humanity? It's the problem of Israel all over again." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001701c8e2bd$9cfa3a00$16d24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-10T18:48:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<487648E3.1060003@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI) wrote:\nHi,\nTim here, read the solar cycle there for the first time about 6 months ago\nand have re-read a few times since while working through the archives.\nI am almost up to real-time in the archives (thank God) but when I saw the\npost below I figured it was time to wade in.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nWelcome, Tim!\n\nJust to maintain proper attribution: I was not the author of the post you\nattributed to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:38:33 +1000 \"Roy C. Lackey\" ", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-10T19:39:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<001701c8e2bd$9cfa3a00$16d24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Paul B posts: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fundamental moral facts in this case are that 1.) we know they can save\nthe population of Urth and 2.) they choose not to. This makes any outcome\nmorally suspect according to most ethical frameworks. As long as 1.) and\n2.) are facts, the Hierogrammates cannot be good guys." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is the contention of many, and I'd bet the author to be one of them, that\n\"ethics\" is not a strictly human concept." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there is a large gap in the broad exposition of your argument, \nthat being that we don't need a science fiction story to find a legend of a God\nwho has the power to stop all war, genocide, disease and child rape but chooses not\nto. Extending your argument would seem to demand either that Gene Wolfe feels \nthe Judeo-Christian God is morally bankrupt or that Gene Wolfe is an atheist (or both).\nI don't think either is true.\n\nI think any intelligent, thinking Christian eventually is troubled by the classic problem\nof an omnicient, omnipotent God who allows evil to flourish. I suspect the Hierogrammates\nand their relationship with the Increate are an attempt by Gene Wolfe to reconcile the \ncontradiction (while injecting a healthy dose of science to explain religion).\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2528488F-E6FD-4757-ACC9-58AB39F16B09@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-10T19:56:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now we've strayed into my territory (philosophy!).\n\nI think that the analysis given of the Hierogrammates is too one- \nsided, ethically. We're assuming that morality works on a broadly \nutilitarian basis: e.g., it is somehow better to save the population \nof Urth than let it pass away.\n\nRather, if we look at the moral actions internally, we ask whether it \nis morally right for Severian to bring the New Sun, not on the basis \nof what effects it might have, but whether that act was right in and \nof itself. Analogizing to Biblical morality, look at the use of \nNoah's Flood to wash away what passed for a degenerate Earth/Urth. \nI'm no Catholic, so I don't know if there is a standard dogmatic \ntheodicy that is accepted in response to the problem of evil, but I \nthink that the majority-Christian view on that argument is the \"God \nhas his reasons\" theodicy. In other words, it is unquestionable and \naxiomatic that God does only good things. So sending the Flood (make \nof that what you will) is a good act. Even if we cannot understand \nhow it is good, if God has his reasons for it, they may be beyond what \nwe can understand, being finite mortals and all\n\nThen again, the Hieros don't suffer from God's disability in this \ncase, as it were. They're not perfect beings, so they don't have to \nalways act perfectly good. They may see it necessary to do evil in \norder to do some greater good, so they may accept that Severian must \ndestroy Urth to get to Ushas. After all, this is eschatology and \ngenesis we're talking about here, death and rebirth. And perhaps \nwe're guilty of imposing a mortal, linear-time-bound morality upon \nbeings that are not so bound. Maybe we view death and destruction as \n\"bad\" in and of themselves, when really they're just a necessary step \nalong the way to birth/rebirth?\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 10, 2008, at 2:39 PM, b sharp wrote:\n\nPaul B posts:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The fundamental moral facts in this case are that 1.) we know they \ncan save\nthe population of Urth and 2.) they choose not to. This makes any \noutcome\nmorally suspect according to most ethical frameworks. As long as \n1.) and\n2.) are facts, the Hierogrammates cannot be good guys." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and\nIt is the contention of many, and I'd bet the author to be one of \nthem, that\n\"ethics\" is not a strictly human concept.\n\nI think there is a large gap in the broad exposition of your argument,\nthat being that we don't need a science fiction story to find a \nlegend of a God\nwho has the power to stop all war, genocide, disease and child rape \nbut chooses not\nto. Extending your argument would seem to demand either that Gene \nWolfe feels\nthe Judeo-Christian God is morally bankrupt or that Gene Wolfe is an \natheist (or both).\nI don't think either is true.\n\nI think any intelligent, thinking Christian eventually is troubled \nby the classic problem\nof an omnicient, omnipotent God who allows evil to flourish. I \nsuspect the Hierogrammates\nand their relationship with the Increate are an attempt by Gene \nWolfe to reconcile the\ncontradiction (while injecting a healthy dose of science to explain \nreligion).\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nNeed to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807101535x3f482aabve3c6ad5e4c7f8d50@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-10T22:35:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't understand the difficulty in holding a race of aliens, even an\nadvanced race, to a moral standard." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 3:39 PM, b sharp wrote:\n\nI think there is a large gap in the broad exposition of your argument,\nthat being that we don't need a science fiction story to find a legend of a\nGod\nwho has the power to stop all war, genocide, disease and child rape but\nchooses not\nto. Extending your argument would seem to demand either that Gene Wolfe\nfeels\nthe Judeo-Christian God is morally bankrupt or that Gene Wolfe is an\natheist (or both).\nI don't think either is true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That, or perhaps more reasonably my argument would demand that the\nHierogrammates aren't God. They aren't, being created by the Hieros\n(posthumans). The Problem of Evil, to which you're alluding to here,\ndoesn't apply to them in Wolfe's world so there's no problem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think any intelligent, thinking Christian eventually is troubled by the\nclassic problem\nof an omnicient, omnipotent God who allows evil to flourish. I suspect the\nHierogrammates\nand their relationship with the Increate are an attempt by Gene Wolfe to\nreconcile the\ncontradiction (while injecting a healthy dose of science to explain\nreligion).\n\n-bsharp" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the Hierogrammates have any different a relationship with God\nthan the Hiero humans do, as both are created - one by the other, no less,\naccording to Wolfe. Who is this \"Increate\" person, anyway?\n\nWolfe can logically both worship a God and condemn a race of aliens playing\ngod.\n\nIncidentally, the Problem of Evil has never had an answer besides \"stop\nasking stupid questions\", which is less than satisfactory in my mind.\nHowever, I'm not Wolfe.\n\nPaul" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807101550i19e892acq8c7a1f0f6f696892@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-10T22:50:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<2528488F-E6FD-4757-ACC9-58AB39F16B09@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we're straying too far afield here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 3:56 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nNow we've strayed into my territory (philosophy!).\n\nI think that the analysis given of the Hierogrammates is too one-sided,\nethically. We're assuming that morality works on a broadly utilitarian\nbasis: e.g., it is somehow better to save the population of Urth than let\nit pass away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wha?! Saying that murder on a planetwide scale is wrong is not an\ninherently utilitarian statement but a very general one. It doesn't assume\nmuch about a moral framework, save one that places inherent value on life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rather, if we look at the moral actions internally, we ask whether it is\nmorally right for Severian to bring the New Sun, not on the basis of what\neffects it might have, but whether that act was right in and of itself.\n Analogizing to Biblical morality, look at the use of Noah's Flood to wash\naway what passed for a degenerate Earth/Urth. I'm no Catholic, so I don't\nknow if there is a standard dogmatic theodicy that is accepted in response\nto the problem of evil, but I think that the majority-Christian view on that\nargument is the \"God has his reasons\" theodicy. In other words, it is\nunquestionable and axiomatic that God does only good things. So sending the\nFlood (make of that what you will) is a good act. Even if we cannot\nunderstand how it is good, if God has his reasons for it, they may be beyond\nwhat we can understand, being finite mortals and all" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that one of the primary findings from the tetralogy is that Severian\ndoesn't understand much of anything. It's not useful to theorize about him\nas a conscious, moral agent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then again, the Hieros don't suffer from God's disability in this case, as\nit were. They're not perfect beings, so they don't have to always act\nperfectly good. They may see it necessary to do evil in order to do some\ngreater good, so they may accept that Severian must destroy Urth to get to\nUshas. After all, this is eschatology and genesis we're talking about here,\ndeath and rebirth. And perhaps we're guilty of imposing a mortal,\nlinear-time-bound morality upon beings that are not so bound. Maybe we view\ndeath and destruction as \"bad\" in and of themselves, when really they're\njust a necessary step along the way to birth/rebirth?\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like I said in the opening of this, it's only a useful exercise if you\nassume that morality is in some way universal. If the Hierogrammates\noperate on another moral level (and I see little reason to assume this -\nthey are just advanced aliens), we can just give up and go home. However,\nthat would sound a little like the proposed solutions to the Problem of\nEvil.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 10, 2008, at 2:39 PM, b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Paul B posts:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The fundamental moral facts in this case are that 1.) we know they can\nsave\nthe population of Urth and 2.) they choose not to. This makes any\noutcome\nmorally suspect according to most ethical frameworks. As long as 1.) and\n2.) are facts, the Hierogrammates cannot be good guys." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is the contention of many, and I'd bet the author to be one of them,\nthat\n\"ethics\" is not a strictly human concept." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think there is a large gap in the broad exposition of your argument,\nthat being that we don't need a science fiction story to find a legend of\na God\nwho has the power to stop all war, genocide, disease and child rape but\nchooses not\nto. Extending your argument would seem to demand either that Gene Wolfe\nfeels\nthe Judeo-Christian God is morally bankrupt or that Gene Wolfe is an\natheist (or both).\nI don't think either is true.\n\nI think any intelligent, thinking Christian eventually is troubled by the\nclassic problem\nof an omnicient, omnipotent God who allows evil to flourish. I suspect the\nHierogrammates\nand their relationship with the Increate are an attempt by Gene Wolfe to\nreconcile the\ncontradiction (while injecting a healthy dose of science to explain\nreligion).\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nNeed to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4876B32D.5050508@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T01:11:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807101535x3f482aabve3c6ad5e4c7f8d50@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nI don't understand the difficulty in holding a race of aliens, even an \nadvanced race, to a moral standard." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The difficulty is in agreeing on the units of moral judgment. A \nHierogrammate may be a race unto themselves and destroy an intelligent \nindividual whose actions they disklike the way you or I destroy itchy \nnerve fibers by scratching ourselves or remove warts from each other's \nbodies." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4876B43C.2000702@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T01:15:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807101550i19e892acq8c7a1f0f6f696892@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nWha?! Saying that murder on a planetwide scale is wrong is not an \ninherently utilitarian statement but a very general one. It doesn't \nassume much about a moral framework, save one that places inherent value \non life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would be \"on individual *human* life.\" Life in general will benefit \nenormously from the coming of Ushas, returning to the world-wide range \nwhere it had flourished in eons past." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<272706220807101949i44b31dfaie74486fa795244d2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T02:49:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807101550i19e892acq8c7a1f0f6f696892@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose I could make myself clearer. Ever a problem.\n\nThe reason why human concepts of morality might not apply to the Hieros goes\nback to my residual Kantianism. For humans, our experience of the world is\nalways subject the conditions for sensibility, space and time. That is, we\n_need_ time to be linear and run one way, or else our way of representing\nthe world goes to bunk. But how does that apply to Hierodules/-grammates?\nWe know that they are not similarly bound by the linear flow of time as\nhumans are. Thus, the human moral fear of death, and our value judgment of\ndeath as bad are because death represents the end, or cessation of life.\nBut for beings moving the opposite direction (Barbatus, etc.) or those\ncapable of moving in any direction through the Atrium or Madregot might have\na different feeling about death. So while we regard the putative murder of\nthe Urthlings as an immoral act, to them it might be the height of morality\nbecause it paves the way for rebirth, or that worldly death is not something\nthey need fear.\n\nI forget who has it, but there is a contemporary writer who has a similar\nresponse to the problem of evil. He takes up the recent tsunami as evidence\nthat perhaps, in God's view, the death of people is not something to be\nlamented, if we assume a beneficial afterlife for good people. I'm not\nsaying I buy it, mind you (in fact, I don't believe in gods of any sort) but\nthe argument is, I think, defensible.\n\nAnd as for Sev being a moral agent, well, we _all_ are moral agents, whether\nwe're conscious of our status as such. And I don't necessarily read\nSeverian's lack of introspection or analysis of his own actions as being an\ninherent blindness in his person, but from the tone he takes he seems to be\nattempting to give as objective a history as he can, not a memoir-ish\nanalysis of his own life.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Paul B wrote:\nI think we're straying too far afield here.\n\n On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 3:56 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now we've strayed into my territory (philosophy!).\n\nI think that the analysis given of the Hierogrammates is too one-sided,\nethically. We're assuming that morality works on a broadly utilitarian\nbasis: e.g., it is somehow better to save the population of Urth than let\nit pass away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wha?! Saying that murder on a planetwide scale is wrong is not an\ninherently utilitarian statement but a very general one. It doesn't assume\nmuch about a moral framework, save one that places inherent value on life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rather, if we look at the moral actions internally, we ask whether it is\nmorally right for Severian to bring the New Sun, not on the basis of what\neffects it might have, but whether that act was right in and of itself.\n Analogizing to Biblical morality, look at the use of Noah's Flood to wash\naway what passed for a degenerate Earth/Urth. I'm no Catholic, so I don't\nknow if there is a standard dogmatic theodicy that is accepted in response\nto the problem of evil, but I think that the majority-Christian view on that\nargument is the \"God has his reasons\" theodicy. In other words, it is\nunquestionable and axiomatic that God does only good things. So sending the\nFlood (make of that what you will) is a good act. Even if we cannot\nunderstand how it is good, if God has his reasons for it, they may be beyond\nwhat we can understand, being finite mortals and all" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that one of the primary findings from the tetralogy is that\nSeverian doesn't understand much of anything. It's not useful to theorize\nabout him as a conscious, moral agent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Then again, the Hieros don't suffer from God's disability in this case, as\nit were. They're not perfect beings, so they don't have to always act\nperfectly good. They may see it necessary to do evil in order to do some\ngreater good, so they may accept that Severian must destroy Urth to get to\nUshas. After all, this is eschatology and genesis we're talking about here,\ndeath and rebirth. And perhaps we're guilty of imposing a mortal,\nlinear-time-bound morality upon beings that are not so bound. Maybe we view\ndeath and destruction as \"bad\" in and of themselves, when really they're\njust a necessary step along the way to birth/rebirth?\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Like I said in the opening of this, it's only a useful exercise if you\nassume that morality is in some way universal. If the Hierogrammates\noperate on another moral level (and I see little reason to assume this -\nthey are just advanced aliens), we can just give up and go home. However,\nthat would sound a little like the proposed solutions to the Problem of\nEvil.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 10, 2008, at 2:39 PM, b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Paul B posts:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The fundamental moral facts in this case are that 1.) we know they can\nsave\nthe population of Urth and 2.) they choose not to. This makes any\noutcome\nmorally suspect according to most ethical frameworks. As long as 1.)\nand\n2.) are facts, the Hierogrammates cannot be good guys." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It is the contention of many, and I'd bet the author to be one of them,\nthat\n\"ethics\" is not a strictly human concept." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think there is a large gap in the broad exposition of your argument,\nthat being that we don't need a science fiction story to find a legend of\na God\nwho has the power to stop all war, genocide, disease and child rape but\nchooses not\nto. Extending your argument would seem to demand either that Gene Wolfe\nfeels\nthe Judeo-Christian God is morally bankrupt or that Gene Wolfe is an\natheist (or both).\nI don't think either is true.\n\nI think any intelligent, thinking Christian eventually is troubled by the\nclassic problem\nof an omnicient, omnipotent God who allows evil to flourish. I suspect\nthe Hierogrammates\nand their relationship with the Increate are an attempt by Gene Wolfe to\nreconcile the\ncontradiction (while injecting a healthy dose of science to explain\nreligion).\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nNeed to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807102013w4ac4e791k53c6b8eee3840670@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T03:13:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4876B43C.2000702@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 9:15 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nPaul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wha?! Saying that murder on a planetwide scale is wrong is not an\ninherently utilitarian statement but a very general one. It doesn't assume\nmuch about a moral framework, save one that places inherent value on life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That would be \"on individual *human* life.\" Life in general will benefit\nenormously from the coming of Ushas, returning to the world-wide range where\nit had flourished in eons past." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And this right here would in fact be a utilitarian argument - the greater\ngood is achieved (assuming Ushas is actually so great, but that's irrelevant\nfor the moment). However, \"murder is wrong\" is not utilitarian, which is\nwhat I was saying before. It can be a general outcome of several moral\nsystems." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807102019g75433d8fnc11177a7dc7c027c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T03:19:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4876B32D.5050508@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, moral relativism can solve any ethical difficulty, if by \"solve\" one\nmeans \"circumvent\". However, the reason it might be less interesting to\npursue here is precisely due to the nature of the author whose worlds, in\nall likelihood due to his personal beliefs, have mentions of absolute Truth\nand hence an absolute Morality to boot. The Increate or the Outsider or\nwhat have you is not compatible with moral relativism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 9:11 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nPaul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't understand the difficulty in holding a race of aliens, even an\nadvanced race, to a moral standard." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The difficulty is in agreeing on the units of moral judgment. A\nHierogrammate may be a race unto themselves and destroy an intelligent\nindividual whose actions they disklike the way you or I destroy itchy nerve\nfibers by scratching ourselves or remove warts from each other's bodies.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807102036i2b5ca985l8a34fa11151faca2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T03:36:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<272706220807101949i44b31dfaie74486fa795244d2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:\nI suppose I could make myself clearer. Ever a problem.\n\nThe reason why human concepts of morality might not apply to the Hieros\ngoes back to my residual Kantianism. For humans, our experience of the\nworld is always subject the conditions for sensibility, space and time.\nThat is, we _need_ time to be linear and run one way, or else our way of\nrepresenting the world goes to bunk. But how does that apply to\nHierodules/-grammates? We know that they are not similarly bound by the\nlinear flow of time as humans are. Thus, the human moral fear of death, and\nour value judgment of death as bad are because death represents the end, or\ncessation of life. But for beings moving the opposite direction (Barbatus,\netc.) or those capable of moving in any direction through the Atrium or\nMadregot might have a different feeling about death. So while we regard the\nputative murder of the Urthlings as an immoral act, to them it might be the\nheight of morality because it paves the way for rebirth, or that worldly\ndeath is not something they need fear.\n\nI forget who has it, but there is a contemporary writer who has a similar\nresponse to the problem of evil. He takes up the recent tsunami as evidence\nthat perhaps, in God's view, the death of people is not something to be\nlamented, if we assume a beneficial afterlife for good people. I'm not\nsaying I buy it, mind you (in fact, I don't believe in gods of any sort) but\nthe argument is, I think, defensible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mentioned in my response to Jeff why I don't think it's proper, or at\nleast fun, to consider moral relativism. If nothing else, it's more fun to\nconsider a problem than to dismiss it. The destruction of Urth is a\nmomentous occasion and the climax of chiliads of extensive planning, and I\nthink that dismissing it as just something to get done gives it too short\nshrift.\n\nAnd as for Sev being a moral agent, well, we _all_ are moral agents, whether" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "we're conscious of our status as such. And I don't necessarily read\nSeverian's lack of introspection or analysis of his own actions as being an\ninherent blindness in his person, but from the tone he takes he seems to be\nattempting to give as objective a history as he can, not a memoir-ish\nanalysis of his own life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's I suppose a consistent viewpoint that the Hierogrammates are good guys\nand Severian's following them unquestioningly is harmless. Thus, for\nexample , when instead of taking the opportunity to question Apheta about\nwhat's actually going on he just does what he always does to all women he\never meets, it can be seen as a mostly harmless vice (though perhaps not\nquite worthy of the EPITOME OF HUMANITY). \"Consistent\" is about the highest\npraise I can give to this sort of interpretation though. However while\nSeverian's character flaws might be surprising in his position as ambassador\nof a supposedly reformed humanity, they are certainly very fitting in an\nalternative position of puppet. It's just a matter of which perspective one\nfinds more compelling.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think we're straying too far afield here.\n\n On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 3:56 PM, Lane Haygood \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Now we've strayed into my territory (philosophy!).\n\nI think that the analysis given of the Hierogrammates is too one-sided,\nethically. We're assuming that morality works on a broadly utilitarian\nbasis: e.g., it is somehow better to save the population of Urth than let\nit pass away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wha?! Saying that murder on a planetwide scale is wrong is not an\ninherently utilitarian statement but a very general one. It doesn't assume\nmuch about a moral framework, save one that places inherent value on life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Rather, if we look at the moral actions internally, we ask whether it is\nmorally right for Severian to bring the New Sun, not on the basis of what\neffects it might have, but whether that act was right in and of itself.\n Analogizing to Biblical morality, look at the use of Noah's Flood to wash\naway what passed for a degenerate Earth/Urth. I'm no Catholic, so I don't\nknow if there is a standard dogmatic theodicy that is accepted in response\nto the problem of evil, but I think that the majority-Christian view on that\nargument is the \"God has his reasons\" theodicy. In other words, it is\nunquestionable and axiomatic that God does only good things. So sending the\nFlood (make of that what you will) is a good act. Even if we cannot\nunderstand how it is good, if God has his reasons for it, they may be beyond\nwhat we can understand, being finite mortals and all" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that one of the primary findings from the tetralogy is that\nSeverian doesn't understand much of anything. It's not useful to theorize\nabout him as a conscious, moral agent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Then again, the Hieros don't suffer from God's disability in this case,\nas it were. They're not perfect beings, so they don't have to always act\nperfectly good. They may see it necessary to do evil in order to do some\ngreater good, so they may accept that Severian must destroy Urth to get to\nUshas. After all, this is eschatology and genesis we're talking about here,\ndeath and rebirth. And perhaps we're guilty of imposing a mortal,\nlinear-time-bound morality upon beings that are not so bound. Maybe we view\ndeath and destruction as \"bad\" in and of themselves, when really they're\njust a necessary step along the way to birth/rebirth?\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Like I said in the opening of this, it's only a useful exercise if you\nassume that morality is in some way universal. If the Hierogrammates\noperate on another moral level (and I see little reason to assume this -\nthey are just advanced aliens), we can just give up and go home. However,\nthat would sound a little like the proposed solutions to the Problem of\nEvil.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Jul 10, 2008, at 2:39 PM, b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Paul B posts:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The fundamental moral facts in this case are that 1.) we know they can\nsave\nthe population of Urth and 2.) they choose not to. This makes any\noutcome\nmorally suspect according to most ethical frameworks. As long as 1.)\nand\n2.) are facts, the Hierogrammates cannot be good guys." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It is the contention of many, and I'd bet the author to be one of them,\nthat\n\"ethics\" is not a strictly human concept." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I think there is a large gap in the broad exposition of your argument,\nthat being that we don't need a science fiction story to find a legend\nof a God\nwho has the power to stop all war, genocide, disease and child rape but\nchooses not\nto. Extending your argument would seem to demand either that Gene Wolfe\nfeels\nthe Judeo-Christian God is morally bankrupt or that Gene Wolfe is an\natheist (or both).\nI don't think either is true.\n\nI think any intelligent, thinking Christian eventually is troubled by\nthe classic problem\nof an omnicient, omnipotent God who allows evil to flourish. I suspect\nthe Hierogrammates\nand their relationship with the Increate are an attempt by Gene Wolfe to\nreconcile the\ncontradiction (while injecting a healthy dose of science to explain\nreligion).\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nNeed to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807102050g4824fce3g41d83714286756f2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T03:50:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807102036i2b5ca985l8a34fa11151faca2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:36 PM, Paul B wrote:\n\n\nOn Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:49 PM, Lane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I suppose I could make myself clearer. Ever a problem.\n\nThe reason why human concepts of morality might not apply to the Hieros\ngoes back to my residual Kantianism. For humans, our experience of the\nworld is always subject the conditions for sensibility, space and time.\nThat is, we _need_ time to be linear and run one way, or else our way of\nrepresenting the world goes to bunk. But how does that apply to\nHierodules/-grammates? We know that they are not similarly bound by the\nlinear flow of time as humans are. Thus, the human moral fear of death, and\nour value judgment of death as bad are because death represents the end, or\ncessation of life. But for beings moving the opposite direction (Barbatus,\netc.) or those capable of moving in any direction through the Atrium or\nMadregot might have a different feeling about death. So while we regard the\nputative murder of the Urthlings as an immoral act, to them it might be the\nheight of morality because it paves the way for rebirth, or that worldly\ndeath is not something they need fear.\n\nI forget who has it, but there is a contemporary writer who has a similar\nresponse to the problem of evil. He takes up the recent tsunami as evidence\nthat perhaps, in God's view, the death of people is not something to be\nlamented, if we assume a beneficial afterlife for good people. I'm not\nsaying I buy it, mind you (in fact, I don't believe in gods of any sort) but\nthe argument is, I think, defensible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mentioned in my response to Jeff why I don't think it's proper, or at\nleast fun, to consider moral relativism. If nothing else, it's more fun to\nconsider a problem than to dismiss it. The destruction of Urth is a\nmomentous occasion and the climax of chiliads of extensive planning, and I\nthink that dismissing it as just something to get done gives it too short\nshrift.\n\nAnd as for Sev being a moral agent, well, we _all_ are moral agents,\nwhether we're conscious of our status as such. And I don't necessarily read\nSeverian's lack of introspection or analysis of his own actions as being an\ninherent blindness in his person, but from the tone he takes he seems to be\nattempting to give as objective a history as he can, not a memoir-ish\nanalysis of his own life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's I suppose a consistent viewpoint that the Hierogrammates are good guys\nand Severian's following them unquestioningly is harmless. Thus, for\nexample , when instead of taking the opportunity to question Apheta about\nwhat's actually going on he just does what he always does to all women he\never meets, it can be seen as a mostly harmless vice (though perhaps not\nquite worthy of the EPITOME OF HUMANITY). \"Consistent\" is about the highest\npraise I can give to this sort of interpretation though. However while\nSeverian's character flaws might be surprising in his position as ambassador\nof a supposedly reformed humanity, they are certainly very fitting in an\nalternative position of puppet. It's just a matter of which perspective one\nfinds more compelling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eh, I suppose I got a little carried away there. A redaction is in order:\nOf the women he's met, Severian does not, in fact, do Agia, Tzadkiel, or\nMadame Prefect that runs Matachin Tower in the Age of the Monarch. I would\nattribute these omissions to lack of opportunity/time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think we're straying too far afield here.\n\n On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 3:56 PM, Lane Haygood \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Now we've strayed into my territory (philosophy!).\n\nI think that the analysis given of the Hierogrammates is too one-sided,\nethically. We're assuming that morality works on a broadly utilitarian\nbasis: e.g., it is somehow better to save the population of Urth than let\nit pass away." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wha?! Saying that murder on a planetwide scale is wrong is not an\ninherently utilitarian statement but a very general one. It doesn't assume\nmuch about a moral framework, save one that places inherent value on life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Rather, if we look at the moral actions internally, we ask whether it is\nmorally right for Severian to bring the New Sun, not on the basis of what\neffects it might have, but whether that act was right in and of itself.\n Analogizing to Biblical morality, look at the use of Noah's Flood to wash\naway what passed for a degenerate Earth/Urth. I'm no Catholic, so I don't\nknow if there is a standard dogmatic theodicy that is accepted in response\nto the problem of evil, but I think that the majority-Christian view on that\nargument is the \"God has his reasons\" theodicy. In other words, it is\nunquestionable and axiomatic that God does only good things. So sending the\nFlood (make of that what you will) is a good act. Even if we cannot\nunderstand how it is good, if God has his reasons for it, they may be beyond\nwhat we can understand, being finite mortals and all" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think that one of the primary findings from the tetralogy is that\nSeverian doesn't understand much of anything. It's not useful to theorize\nabout him as a conscious, moral agent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Then again, the Hieros don't suffer from God's disability in this case,\nas it were. They're not perfect beings, so they don't have to always act\nperfectly good. They may see it necessary to do evil in order to do some\ngreater good, so they may accept that Severian must destroy Urth to get to\nUshas. After all, this is eschatology and genesis we're talking about here,\ndeath and rebirth. And perhaps we're guilty of imposing a mortal,\nlinear-time-bound morality upon beings that are not so bound. Maybe we view\ndeath and destruction as \"bad\" in and of themselves, when really they're\njust a necessary step along the way to birth/rebirth?\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Like I said in the opening of this, it's only a useful exercise if you\nassume that morality is in some way universal. If the Hierogrammates\noperate on another moral level (and I see little reason to assume this -\nthey are just advanced aliens), we can just give up and go home. However,\nthat would sound a little like the proposed solutions to the Problem of\nEvil.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Jul 10, 2008, at 2:39 PM, b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Paul B posts:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "The fundamental moral facts in this case are that 1.) we know they can\nsave\nthe population of Urth and 2.) they choose not to. This makes any\noutcome\nmorally suspect according to most ethical frameworks. As long as 1.)\nand\n2.) are facts, the Hierogrammates cannot be good guys." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "It is the contention of many, and I'd bet the author to be one of\nthem, that\n\"ethics\" is not a strictly human concept." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I think there is a large gap in the broad exposition of your argument,\nthat being that we don't need a science fiction story to find a legend\nof a God\nwho has the power to stop all war, genocide, disease and child rape but\nchooses not\nto. Extending your argument would seem to demand either that Gene\nWolfe feels\nthe Judeo-Christian God is morally bankrupt or that Gene Wolfe is an\natheist (or both).\nI don't think either is true.\n\nI think any intelligent, thinking Christian eventually is troubled by\nthe classic problem\nof an omnicient, omnipotent God who allows evil to flourish. I suspect\nthe Hierogrammates\nand their relationship with the Increate are an attempt by Gene Wolfe\nto reconcile the\ncontradiction (while injecting a healthy dose of science to explain\nreligion).\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nNeed to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4876DD92.2080309@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T04:12:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807102019g75433d8fnc11177a7dc7c027c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nSure, moral relativism can solve any ethical difficulty, if by \"solve\" \none means \"circumvent\". However, the reason it might be less \ninteresting to pursue here is precisely due to the nature of the author \nwhose worlds, in all likelihood due to his personal beliefs, have \nmentions of absolute Truth and hence an absolute Morality to boot. The \nIncreate or the Outsider or what have you is not compatible with moral \nrelativism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think moral relativism enters into it so much as moral \nsegregation. The same Increate to which humans attribute their moral \ncode against incest they also attribute the creation of living things \nthat *require* incest to reproduce." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4876DF8E.3080802@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T04:20:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807102050g4824fce3g41d83714286756f2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\n I mentioned in my response to Jeff why I don't think it's proper, or\n at least fun, to consider moral relativism. If nothing else, it's\n more fun to consider a problem than to dismiss it. The destruction\n of Urth is a momentous occasion and the climax of chiliads of\n extensive planning, and I think that dismissing it as just something\n to get done gives it too short shrift." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dismiss it?! I've been discussing it with these fellows for years on the \nlist, and years before that on GEnie with mantiss and Hartwell and the \ngang. Trying to reverse engineer a framework of moral philosophy is not \neasy, and you being dismissive of me is not helping anyone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Eh, I suppose I got a little carried away there. A redaction is in \norder: Of the women he's met, Severian does not, in fact, do Agia, \nTzadkiel, or Madame Prefect that runs Matachin Tower in the Age of the \nMonarch. I would attribute these omissions to lack of opportunity/time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He actually declines to have sex with Dara, despite having \"earned\" it \nand her being resigned to it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807102204qa417832m7f9c0efad6debb33@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T05:04:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4876DF8E.3080802@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 12:20 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDismiss it?! I've been discussing it with these fellows for years on the\nlist, and years before that on GEnie with mantiss and Hartwell and the gang.\nTrying to reverse engineer a framework of moral philosophy is not easy, and\nyou being dismissive of me is not helping anyone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now I don't think I understand. If the Hierogrammates are morally justified\nin doing what they do, what problem are you discussing? What are you\nreverse engineering? I'm not quite sure what moral segregation is, but it\nsounds like relativism, and if you believe it applies to this situation then\nI don't understand what you could talk about for years. There is then no\nethical quandary and the sacrifice of Urth is just a necessity that isn't\neven terribly regrettable. What moral problem did you have in mind then?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4876F1E8.1080800@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T05:38:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807102204qa417832m7f9c0efad6debb33@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 12:20 AM, Jeff Wilson > wrote:\n\n Dismiss it?! I've been discussing it with these fellows for years on\n the list, and years before that on GEnie with mantiss and Hartwell\n and the gang. Trying to reverse engineer a framework of moral\n philosophy is not easy, and you being dismissive of me is not\n helping anyone.\n\n\nNow I don't think I understand. If the Hierogrammates are morally \njustified in doing what they do, what problem are you discussing? What \nare you reverse engineering? I'm not quite sure what moral segregation \nis, but it sounds like relativism, and if you believe it applies to this \nsituation then I don't understand what you could talk about for years. \nThere is then no ethical quandary and the sacrifice of Urth is just a \nnecessity that isn't even terribly regrettable. What moral problem did \nyou have in mind then?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "in re \"moral segregation\":\nMoral relativism vs moral absolutism generally is not argued with \nrespect to nonhuman intelligences. I think it likely that the human \ncondition boils down to universal moral principles for the most part. \n(Not all moral issues can be decided this way; likely there is a mix.) \nBut moral absolutism for humans need not mean that there is an identical \nabsolutism for nonhumans.\n\nBut first I need to figure out what the writer's moral philosophy is, \nthen work out the nonhumans' possible moral philosophy by differential, \nthen try to come to some common moral terminological ground with the \nvarious list people so we can have a coherent discussion of it. And that \ncan take a looooong time." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002d01c8e31e$c13bb9a0$63d14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-11T06:24:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4876F1E8.1080800@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul Borochin wrote:\nI don't think the Hierogrammates have any different a relationship with God\nthan the Hiero humans do, as both are created - one by the other, no less,\naccording to Wolfe. Who is this \"Increate\" person, anyway?\n\nWolfe can logically both worship a God and condemn a race of aliens playing\ngod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We are on opposite sides in this particular argument; that is, I do think\nthe Hierogrammates got their marching orders from the\nIncreate/Outsider/Judeo-Christian God. Some might say Demiurge. But I've\nsaid it all before. Still . . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incidentally, the Problem of Evil has never had an answer besides \"stop\nasking stupid questions\", which is less than satisfactory in my mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like the way you think. Like Sgt. Friday on the old \"Dragnet\" TV show:\n\"Just the facts, ma'am.\" Reminds me of somebody.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48770757.5000204@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T07:10:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807102019g75433d8fnc11177a7dc7c027c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nSure, moral relativism can solve any ethical difficulty, if by \"solve\" \none means \"circumvent\". However, the reason it might be less \ninteresting to pursue here is precisely due to the nature of the author \nwhose worlds, in all likelihood due to his personal beliefs, have \nmentions of absolute Truth and hence an absolute Morality to boot. The \nIncreate or the Outsider or what have you is not compatible with moral \nrelativism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Would you agree that it can be good for the Increate to do something \nthat it would be evil to be done by a man?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807110822v1af7e335jcf9087e2426e62ce@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T15:22:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<48770757.5000204@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 3:10 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nPaul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure, moral relativism can solve any ethical difficulty, if by \"solve\" one\nmeans \"circumvent\". However, the reason it might be less interesting to\npursue here is precisely due to the nature of the author whose worlds, in\nall likelihood due to his personal beliefs, have mentions of absolute Truth\nand hence an absolute Morality to boot. The Increate or the Outsider or\nwhat have you is not compatible with moral relativism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Would you agree that it can be good for the Increate to do something that\nit would be evil to be done by a man?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I think I understand what you're getting at. My own beliefs don't\nmatter that much, but I'm certainly willing to entertain the notion that in\nWolfe's books this sort of thing is possible, it certainly does fall into\nthe purview of the Problem of Evil. Christians usually don't take this to\nmean that moral relativism exists, rather saying that God is a moral\nexception.\n\nHowever, as far as the destruction of Urth goes, this doesn't have much bite\nsimply because it's not the Increate that destroys Urth, but fleshy beings\nlike us. You would have a hard time making the case for a\ntheologically-based moral exception for aliens the same way that one is made\nfor God.\n\nNow this is unimportant, but I don't understand why \"moral relativism\", a\nwell-established term meaning the opposite of moral absolutism, is\ninapplicable to nonhumans while something called \"moral segregation\", is.\nIf anything, it would seem relativism would be much more compelling with\nnonhumans around. Is \"moral segregation\" a term in use by alien\npsychologists?\n\nPaul" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807110910j72f14961q194660968555677@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T16:10:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<002d01c8e31e$c13bb9a0$63d14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks I guess? One could always do worse than be compared to a fictional\ncop.\nUnfortunately I don't know too much about this one.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 2:24 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nPaul Borochin wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think the Hierogrammates have any different a relationship with\nGod\nthan the Hiero humans do, as both are created - one by the other, no less,\naccording to Wolfe. Who is this \"Increate\" person, anyway?\n\nWolfe can logically both worship a God and condemn a race of aliens\nplaying\ngod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We are on opposite sides in this particular argument; that is, I do think\nthe Hierogrammates got their marching orders from the\nIncreate/Outsider/Judeo-Christian God. Some might say Demiurge. But I've\nsaid it all before. Still . . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Incidentally, the Problem of Evil has never had an answer besides \"stop\nasking stupid questions\", which is less than satisfactory in my mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like the way you think. Like Sgt. Friday on the old \"Dragnet\" TV show:\n\"Just the facts, ma'am.\" Reminds me of somebody.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4877A515.5050706@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T18:23:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807110822v1af7e335jcf9087e2426e62ce@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nOn Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 3:10 AM, Jeff Wilson > wrote:\n\n Paul B wrote:\n\n Sure, moral relativism can solve any ethical difficulty, if by\n \"solve\" one means \"circumvent\". However, the reason it might be\n less interesting to pursue here is precisely due to the nature\n of the author whose worlds, in all likelihood due to his\n personal beliefs, have mentions of absolute Truth and hence an\n absolute Morality to boot. The Increate or the Outsider or what\n have you is not compatible with moral relativism.\n\n\n Would you agree that it can be good for the Increate to do something\n that it would be evil to be done by a man?\n\n\n -- \n Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com \n < http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n\n \n\nOkay, I think I understand what you're getting at. My own beliefs don't \nmatter that much, but I'm certainly willing to entertain the notion that \nin Wolfe's books this sort of thing is possible, it certainly does fall \ninto the purview of the Problem of Evil. Christians usually don't take \nthis to mean that moral relativism exists, rather saying that God is a \nmoral exception." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's Wolfe's answer to the problems of pain and evil right there: God \nhas the infinite and unfailing moral judgment to decide when people \nshould suffer or die, and it's good that he does so. (There's no \nquestion of them not suffering or dying, because mortals have to suffer \nand have to die by definition, it's just a question of when and where.) \nWhen someone inflicts the suffering or death for selfish reasons, it's \nnot just pain but evil, but it can still further the plan of the Increate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, as far as the destruction of Urth goes, this doesn't have much \nbite simply because it's not the Increate that destroys Urth, but fleshy \nbeings like us. You would have a hard time making the case for a \ntheologically-based moral exception for aliens the same way that one is \nmade for God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The details of how much the varied parties are each responsible for the \ndestruction that happens and the destruction that is avoided are murky." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now this is unimportant, but I don't understand why \"moral relativism\", \na well-established term meaning the opposite of moral absolutism, is \ninapplicable to nonhumans while something called \"moral segregation\", \nis. If anything, it would seem relativism would be much more compelling \nwith nonhumans around. Is \"moral segregation\" a term in use by alien \npsychologists? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I coined the phrase in analogy to racial segregation, the idea that \ndifferent races can't / shouldn't share completely in a common social \nsystem; \"separate but equal\" being the ideal. Ergo, moral segregation is \n to say that human and aliens can have separate but equally moral values.\n\nIt's not moral relativism in that the actors are differentiated by \nbiology more than sociology. There is no surmountable difference in \nviewpoint, because there are viewpoints that humans and aliens *can't \nshare*. I believe humans can have moral absolutes that should apply to \nevery person, but I don't believe those absolutes will apply to every \nalien. The whole reason for the word is to express the concept of \n\"profoundly different\"." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-13T03:52:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4877A515.5050706@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lane Haygood I think I agree with almost your entire post. My only quibble\nwould regard where you say:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It may not be that the Hierogrammates are \"morally superior\" to \nhumans, in that we all have the same capacity for judging moral and \nimmoral actions, but rather that their nature makes them able to \nperceive moral dimensions on acts that we cannot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, my claim has all along been that Hierogrammates are superior moral judges\nto humans based on their superior perception of moral (and other) dimensions.\n\n\\\n\nRoy, sorry if I wasn't clear in agreeing with you that the Hierogrammates possess a\nlesser moral perception than God. And I think we agree they are superior to \nhumans in this regard?\n\nRoy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tzadkiel was not only an admitted liar, he was a cheater as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But lying and cheating are considered immoral acts by humans. And not always. \nMany police and military types are specially trained in such tactics and they are\nconsidered moral actions because they help stop bad guys. Perhaps Tzadkiel feels \nno more guilt in lying to Severian than we would feel for using artificial mating\ncalls to lure animals out of a toxic waste spill area.\n\nand:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Being elected to a given position is hardly a qualifier for the morality of\nthe elected." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nobody doubts that elections are an imperfect system for choosing morally superior\nindividuals, relying as they do on imperfect human judgement. But the fact that we \ncontinue to engage in elections and other selection processes for judges and justices\netc. proves that humanity currently thinks it is possible to ascertain the moral superiority\nof one person over another.\n\nand:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have presented a closed system that, by\ndefinition, not only excludes challenges from outside the system, it\ndismisses those challenges as down-right impertinent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not true. I'm saying that if the Hierogrammates are as Gene Wolfe seems to present them,\nthen humans are no more able to judge their morality than animals are able to judge the\nmorality of human behavior. Hierogrammates might reasonably be judged by members of\ntheir own race, or by other beings with equal or greater moral perception.\n\n(there is dialog in UotNS suggesting that humans would be like animals on some \nplanets and to some other races of beings)\n\n-bsharp\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world?\nhttp://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8E7E6211-8E56-4EEA-9EEB-50C3DC791659@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-13T07:38:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please call me just Lane. If I understand what you're getting at, I \nthink we'd agree that the Hieros have a greater capacity for moral \nunderstanding, but not necessarily the actuality of it.\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 12, 2008, at 10:52 PM, b sharp wrote:\n\n\nLane Haygood I think I agree with almost your entire post. My only \nquibble\nwould regard where you say:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It may not be that the Hierogrammates are \"morally superior\" to\nhumans, in that we all have the same capacity for judging moral and\nimmoral actions, but rather that their nature makes them able to\nperceive moral dimensions on acts that we cannot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, my claim has all along been that Hierogrammates are superior \nmoral judges\nto humans based on their superior perception of moral (and other) \ndimensions.\n\n\\\n\nRoy, sorry if I wasn't clear in agreeing with you that the \nHierogrammates possess a\nlesser moral perception than God. And I think we agree they are \nsuperior to\nhumans in this regard?\n\nRoy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tzadkiel was not only an admitted liar, he was a cheater as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But lying and cheating are considered immoral acts by humans. And \nnot always.\nMany police and military types are specially trained in such tactics \nand they are\nconsidered moral actions because they help stop bad guys. Perhaps \nTzadkiel feels\nno more guilt in lying to Severian than we would feel for using \nartificial mating\ncalls to lure animals out of a toxic waste spill area.\n\nand:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Being elected to a given position is hardly a qualifier for the \nmorality of\nthe elected." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nobody doubts that elections are an imperfect system for choosing \nmorally superior\nindividuals, relying as they do on imperfect human judgement. But \nthe fact that we\ncontinue to engage in elections and other selection processes for \njudges and justices\netc. proves that humanity currently thinks it is possible to \nascertain the moral superiority\nof one person over another.\n\nand:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You have presented a closed system that, by\ndefinition, not only excludes challenges from outside the system, it\ndismisses those challenges as down-right impertinent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not true. I'm saying that if the Hierogrammates are as Gene Wolfe \nseems to present them,\nthen humans are no more able to judge their morality than animals \nare able to judge the\nmorality of human behavior. Hierogrammates might reasonably be \njudged by members of\ntheir own race, or by other beings with equal or greater moral \nperception.\n\n(there is dialog in UotNS suggesting that humans would be like \nanimals on some\nplanets and to some other races of beings)\n\n-bsharp\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world?\nhttp://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001401c8e52b$45194ea0$adce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-13T20:58:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<8E7E6211-8E56-4EEA-9EEB-50C3DC791659@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp quoted and wrote:\nYou have presented a closed system that, by\ndefinition, not only excludes challenges from outside the system, it\ndismisses those challenges as down-right impertinent." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not true. I'm saying that if the Hierogrammates are as Gene Wolfe seems to\npresent them, then humans are no more able to judge their morality than\nanimals are able to judge the morality of human behavior. Hierogrammates\nmight reasonably be judged by members of their own race, or by other beings\nwith equal or greater moral perception.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As above. You are trying to define your way out of challenges to your\nbelief(s) by presenting your belief(s) as axiomatic. Not only that, but\nanyone who disagrees with you is necessarily a fool.\n\nWolfe shows the Hierogrammates to have their own self-serving agenda. He\nshows them as powers above the stage manipulating events on Urth, and their\nintentions to continue manipulating the humans of Ushas to achieve their\ndesired, and acknowledged, ends. It's too much to quote it all here, but it\nis right there in black and white in the dialogue Severian had with Apheta\nimmediately after the fight with the sailors. In order to achieve their\ngoals, the Hierogrammates will have to do unto humans exactly what the\nHieros had done unto them in another universe. As Sev said to Gunnie then,\n\"That's their justice, their whole reason for being. They bring us through\nthe pain we brought them through.\"\n\nIf the Hieros of that other universe sinned by cruelly fashioning the\nHierogrammates (which seems to be axiomatic in the Urth Cycle), then the\nHierogrammates will be guilty of the exact same sin in Briah, and will start\nthe whole ugly cycle all over again. The morality of the actions of\nself-serving creatures of Man's creation is not above the reproach of any\nman.\n\nOne's having power that is greater than another does not define morality.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-07-14T00:28:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<8E7E6211-8E56-4EEA-9EEB-50C3DC791659@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 13 Jul 2008, Lane Haygood wrote:\nPlease call me just Lane. If I understand what you're getting at, I \nthink we'd agree that the Hieros have a greater capacity for moral \nunderstanding, but not necessarily the actuality of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That was the point of the Cock and the Angel, surely?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080714064747.8F35C2003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-07-14T06:47:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:58:53 -0400 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n wrote:\n\nWolfe shows the Hierogrammates to have their own self-serving \nagenda. He\nshows them as powers above the stage manipulating events on Urth, \nand their\nintentions to continue manipulating the humans of Ushas to achieve " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "their\ndesired, and acknowledged, ends. It's too much to quote it all \nhere, but it\nis right there in black and white in the dialogue Severian had \nwith Apheta\nimmediately after the fight with the sailors. In order to achieve \ntheir\ngoals, the Hierogrammates will have to do unto humans exactly what " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the\nHieros had done unto them in another universe. As Sev said to \nGunnie then,\n\"That's their justice, their whole reason for being. They bring us " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "through\nthe pain we brought them through.\"\n\nIf the Hieros of that other universe sinned by cruelly fashioning \nthe\nHierogrammates (which seems to be axiomatic in the Urth Cycle), \nthen the\nHierogrammates will be guilty of the exact same sin in Briah, and \nwill start\nthe whole ugly cycle all over again. The morality of the actions \nof\nself-serving creatures of Man's creation is not above the reproach " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of any\nman.\n\nOne's having power that is greater than another does not define \nmorality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given all this, I still can't figure out why you believe that the \nHierogrammates are working directly for the Increate. They weren't \ncreated directly by him; they display no apparent superiority to \nman apart from wielding greater power; their explicit agenda is \nentirely self-serving with no hint of holiness or whatever. And so \non ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-14T12:19:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080714064747.8F35C2003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thalassocrat says to Roy:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given all this, I still can't figure out why you believe that the \nHierogrammates are working directly for the Increate. They weren't \ncreated directly by him; they display no apparent superiority to \nman apart from wielding greater power; their explicit agenda is \nentirely self-serving with no hint of holiness or whatever. And so \non ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My understanding is that by definition, everything in the universes\nwas created directly by the Increate in exact accordance to his plans. \nThis includes holy, marvelously good angels (Hierogrammates) and unholy,\nevil devils (megatherians). Each has their assigned role. But even if you feel\nthat the Hierogrammages are not holy and good that doesn't change their origin. \n\nBut it seems clear from interviews with Wolfe that there is an allegorical nature to\nBotNS and thus I think his intention must have been to present Hierogrammates \nas very, very good; better than human. If he failed to impress certain readers with\ntheir goodness I think it has to do with philosophical differences (most likely \nreligious vs. atheist). He made the Hierogrammates angels, not Gandhi or MLK Jr.\nAnd angels are known to carry flaming swords and to wipe out whole populations of\npeople, in the Bible.\n\nRoy C. Lackey says in response to my post:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As above. You are trying to define your way out of challenges to your\nbelief(s) by presenting your belief(s) as axiomatic. Not only that, but\nanyone who disagrees with you is necessarily a fool." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy, I think maybe I am not smart enough to understand exactly what you mean by\nthat. I'll note that I don't really have any beliefs and my posts here are meant to \ndescribe what I think are Gene Wolfe intentions (perhaps reflecting his beliefs) in this \nstory. I certainly don't consider those who disagree with me to be fools.\n\nWe don't seem to understand each other's position and we are probably forced to \nagree to disagree on this issue. I might pose one remaining question though, to help\nme understand- If humans are qualified to judge the morality of Hierogrammates, by\nanalogy, animals with some intelligence and social consciousness (let's say apes, \ncetaceans and dogs qualify) would be equally able to judge humans. Would you \n(or anyone else here) agree with this statement? And if not, why not?\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world?\nhttp://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807140953r5bbd13c2pe7dabc8580718bdd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-14T16:53:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080714064747.8F35C2003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, I'm curious about that myself! It seems evidence tying them to the\nIncreate is hard to come by in the text, though at least they do mention it,\nthough perhaps somewhat unusually (\"Urth's agonies will be offered to the\nIncreate\" or something to that effect).\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 2:47 AM, wrote:\n\n\nOn Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:58:53 -0400 \"Roy C. Lackey\"\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe shows the Hierogrammates to have their own self-serving\nagenda. He\nshows them as powers above the stage manipulating events on Urth,\nand their\nintentions to continue manipulating the humans of Ushas to achieve" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "their\ndesired, and acknowledged, ends. It's too much to quote it all\nhere, but it\nis right there in black and white in the dialogue Severian had\nwith Apheta\nimmediately after the fight with the sailors. In order to achieve\ntheir\ngoals, the Hierogrammates will have to do unto humans exactly what" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the\nHieros had done unto them in another universe. As Sev said to\nGunnie then,\n\"That's their justice, their whole reason for being. They bring us" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "through\nthe pain we brought them through.\"\n\nIf the Hieros of that other universe sinned by cruelly fashioning\nthe\nHierogrammates (which seems to be axiomatic in the Urth Cycle),\nthen the\nHierogrammates will be guilty of the exact same sin in Briah, and\nwill start\nthe whole ugly cycle all over again. The morality of the actions\nof\nself-serving creatures of Man's creation is not above the reproach" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "of any\nman.\n\nOne's having power that is greater than another does not define\nmorality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given all this, I still can't figure out why you believe that the\nHierogrammates are working directly for the Increate. They weren't\ncreated directly by him; they display no apparent superiority to\nman apart from wielding greater power; their explicit agenda is\nentirely self-serving with no hint of holiness or whatever. And so\non ...\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807141028l5c561626p1b2bba2871d6aab2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-14T17:28:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807140953r5bbd13c2pe7dabc8580718bdd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps we're looking for the evidence in the wrong place. The strongest\nevidence that the Hierogrammates are doing the will of the Increate is that\nthe Outsider tells Silk that \"When a demon mimics a god, it can not help in\nsome ways becoming like a god.\"\n\nThe Hierogrammates certainly pose as angelic beings. So even if all the\npoints made about the Hierogrammates being evil are correct, and even if\ntheir agenda is indistinguishable from that of Maitre and Mr. Million, they\n*can not help *in some way doing the Increate's will. This could mean that\nSeverian's brining the New Sun is not ultimately a Very Bad Thing after all.\n\nOf course, I have no idea how this would work, or what the Increate's\npurpose would be, unless it really is bringing the Green Man future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/14/08, Paul B wrote:\nTrue, I'm curious about that myself! It seems evidence tying them to the\nIncreate is hard to come by in the text, though at least they do mention it,\nthough perhaps somewhat unusually (\"Urth's agonies will be offered to the\nIncreate\" or something to that effect).\n\nPaul\n\nOn Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 2:47 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:58:53 -0400 \"Roy C. Lackey\"\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wolfe shows the Hierogrammates to have their own self-serving\nagenda. He\nshows them as powers above the stage manipulating events on Urth,\nand their\nintentions to continue manipulating the humans of Ushas to achieve" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "their\ndesired, and acknowledged, ends. It's too much to quote it all\nhere, but it\nis right there in black and white in the dialogue Severian had\nwith Apheta\nimmediately after the fight with the sailors. In order to achieve\ntheir\ngoals, the Hierogrammates will have to do unto humans exactly what" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "the\nHieros had done unto them in another universe. As Sev said to\nGunnie then,\n\"That's their justice, their whole reason for being. They bring us" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "through\nthe pain we brought them through.\"\n\nIf the Hieros of that other universe sinned by cruelly fashioning\nthe\nHierogrammates (which seems to be axiomatic in the Urth Cycle),\nthen the\nHierogrammates will be guilty of the exact same sin in Briah, and\nwill start\nthe whole ugly cycle all over again. The morality of the actions\nof\nself-serving creatures of Man's creation is not above the reproach" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "of any\nman.\n\nOne's having power that is greater than another does not define\nmorality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Given all this, I still can't figure out why you believe that the\nHierogrammates are working directly for the Increate. They weren't\ncreated directly by him; they display no apparent superiority to\nman apart from wielding greater power; their explicit agenda is\nentirely self-serving with no hint of holiness or whatever. And so\non ...\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807141040v45ec13degfd53d049be1a4429@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-14T17:40:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807141028l5c561626p1b2bba2871d6aab2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If I recall correctly, someone else recently tried this as an explanation.\nThe problem with it is that if everyone is part of God's Plan, then the\nconcept of \"morality\" as we know it doesn't exist and no actions can be\njudged - a preposterous conclusion.\nHowever, if you would like to make the case that only some, and not others,\nare doing God's will, then you'll have to prove why that is so.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 1:28 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:\nPerhaps we're looking for the evidence in the wrong place. The strongest\nevidence that the Hierogrammates are doing the will of the Increate is that\nthe Outsider tells Silk that \"When a demon mimics a god, it can not help in\nsome ways becoming like a god.\"\n\nThe Hierogrammates certainly pose as angelic beings. So even if all the\npoints made about the Hierogrammates being evil are correct, and even if\ntheir agenda is indistinguishable from that of Maitre and Mr. Million, they\n*can not help *in some way doing the Increate's will. This could mean\nthat Severian's brining the New Sun is not ultimately a Very Bad Thing after\nall.\n\nOf course, I have no idea how this would work, or what the Increate's\npurpose would be, unless it really is bringing the Green Man future.\n\nOn 7/14/08, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "True, I'm curious about that myself! It seems evidence tying them to the\nIncreate is hard to come by in the text, though at least they do mention it,\nthough perhaps somewhat unusually (\"Urth's agonies will be offered to the\nIncreate\" or something to that effect).\n\nPaul\n\nOn Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 2:47 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:58:53 -0400 \"Roy C. Lackey\"\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Wolfe shows the Hierogrammates to have their own self-serving\nagenda. He\nshows them as powers above the stage manipulating events on Urth,\nand their\nintentions to continue manipulating the humans of Ushas to achieve" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "their\ndesired, and acknowledged, ends. It's too much to quote it all\nhere, but it\nis right there in black and white in the dialogue Severian had\nwith Apheta\nimmediately after the fight with the sailors. In order to achieve\ntheir\ngoals, the Hierogrammates will have to do unto humans exactly what" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "the\nHieros had done unto them in another universe. As Sev said to\nGunnie then,\n\"That's their justice, their whole reason for being. They bring us" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "through\nthe pain we brought them through.\"\n\nIf the Hieros of that other universe sinned by cruelly fashioning\nthe\nHierogrammates (which seems to be axiomatic in the Urth Cycle),\nthen the\nHierogrammates will be guilty of the exact same sin in Briah, and\nwill start\nthe whole ugly cycle all over again. The morality of the actions\nof\nself-serving creatures of Man's creation is not above the reproach" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "of any\nman.\n\nOne's having power that is greater than another does not define\nmorality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Given all this, I still can't figure out why you believe that the\nHierogrammates are working directly for the Increate. They weren't\ncreated directly by him; they display no apparent superiority to\nman apart from wielding greater power; their explicit agenda is\nentirely self-serving with no hint of holiness or whatever. And so\non ...\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807141058g7570ff90te529d9f13a6cf779@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-14T17:58:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807141040v45ec13degfd53d049be1a4429@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it means anything like the idea that everything is part of\nGod's plan and thus morality is meaningless. I think it means something\nmuch more mundane--that, as Severian himself notes \"time turns our lies into\ntruths.\" In an even less poetic phrasing, habituation works--we become the\nthing we discipline ourself to feign being because that's how character is\nshaped.\n\nWhen the lie in question is that we speak for the divine, habituation and\nthe Increate together act to annex our actions. For Patera Quetzal, a\nbloodsucking alien pretending to be a kindly old priest, this meant that he\ncalled off the human sacrifices and generally operated as a strong and\nfaithful leader for his flock. For Kypris, and arguably even for Pas, it\nmeans that the sham religion of the Whorl is still operating to some degree\nto further the Outsider's ends.\n\nI'm suggesting that a similar explanation could be at work behind the plans\nof the Hierogrammates, although in a more opaque manner. I am not\nsuggesting that there is no basis for judging the actions of the\nHierogrammates--their part in a divine plan could be necessary but\ncompletely unwitting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/14/08, Paul B wrote:\nIf I recall correctly, someone else recently tried this as an explanation.\nThe problem with it is that if everyone is part of God's Plan, then the\nconcept of \"morality\" as we know it doesn't exist and no actions can be\njudged - a preposterous conclusion.\nHowever, if you would like to make the case that only some, and not others,\nare doing God's will, then you'll have to prove why that is so.\n\nPaul\n\nOn Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 1:28 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps we're looking for the evidence in the wrong place. The strongest\nevidence that the Hierogrammates are doing the will of the Increate is that\nthe Outsider tells Silk that \"When a demon mimics a god, it can not help in\nsome ways becoming like a god.\"\n\nThe Hierogrammates certainly pose as angelic beings. So even if all the\npoints made about the Hierogrammates being evil are correct, and even if\ntheir agenda is indistinguishable from that of Maitre and Mr. Million, they\n*can not help *in some way doing the Increate's will. This could mean\nthat Severian's brining the New Sun is not ultimately a Very Bad Thing after\nall.\n\nOf course, I have no idea how this would work, or what the Increate's\npurpose would be, unless it really is bringing the Green Man future.\n\nOn 7/14/08, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "True, I'm curious about that myself! It seems evidence tying them to the\nIncreate is hard to come by in the text, though at least they do mention it,\nthough perhaps somewhat unusually (\"Urth's agonies will be offered to the\nIncreate\" or something to that effect).\n\nPaul\n\nOn Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 2:47 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 16:58:53 -0400 \"Roy C. Lackey\"\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Wolfe shows the Hierogrammates to have their own self-serving\nagenda. He\nshows them as powers above the stage manipulating events on Urth,\nand their\nintentions to continue manipulating the humans of Ushas to achieve" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "their\ndesired, and acknowledged, ends. It's too much to quote it all\nhere, but it\nis right there in black and white in the dialogue Severian had\nwith Apheta\nimmediately after the fight with the sailors. In order to achieve\ntheir\ngoals, the Hierogrammates will have to do unto humans exactly what" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "the\nHieros had done unto them in another universe. As Sev said to\nGunnie then,\n\"That's their justice, their whole reason for being. They bring us" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "through\nthe pain we brought them through.\"\n\nIf the Hieros of that other universe sinned by cruelly fashioning\nthe\nHierogrammates (which seems to be axiomatic in the Urth Cycle),\nthen the\nHierogrammates will be guilty of the exact same sin in Briah, and\nwill start\nthe whole ugly cycle all over again. The morality of the actions\nof\nself-serving creatures of Man's creation is not above the reproach" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "of any\nman.\n\nOne's having power that is greater than another does not define\nmorality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Given all this, I still can't figure out why you believe that the\nHierogrammates are working directly for the Increate. They weren't\ncreated directly by him; they display no apparent superiority to\nman apart from wielding greater power; their explicit agenda is\nentirely self-serving with no hint of holiness or whatever. And so\non ...\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807141249v471f962aha986cde2b44e7fcb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-14T19:49:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807141058g7570ff90te529d9f13a6cf779@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, but then you're simply saying that evil actions can produce good\nresults. That is a truism which doesn't help determine the morality of the\nHierogrammates' actions, which is what we're after.\nI'm certainly willing to concede that some good came of what they did, but\nthat does nothing to excuse the Hierogrammates.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 1:58 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:\nI don't think it means anything like the idea that everything is part of\nGod's plan and thus morality is meaningless. I think it means something\nmuch more mundane--that, as Severian himself notes \"time turns our lies into\ntruths.\" In an even less poetic phrasing, habituation works--we become the\nthing we discipline ourself to feign being because that's how character is\nshaped.\n\nWhen the lie in question is that we speak for the divine, habituation and\nthe Increate together act to annex our actions. For Patera Quetzal, a\nbloodsucking alien pretending to be a kindly old priest, this meant that he\ncalled off the human sacrifices and generally operated as a strong and\nfaithful leader for his flock. For Kypris, and arguably even for Pas, it\nmeans that the sham religion of the Whorl is still operating to some degree\nto further the Outsider's ends.\n\nI'm suggesting that a similar explanation could be at work behind the\nplans of the Hierogrammates, although in a more opaque manner. I am not\nsuggesting that there is no basis for judging the actions of the\nHierogrammates--their part in a divine plan could be necessary but\ncompletely unwitting." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807141316x1af9c5f3lcac810ccef5259cf@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-14T20:16:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807141249v471f962aha986cde2b44e7fcb@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Wolfe's point is deeper than merely \"evil actions can produce good\nresults.\" There's a significant difference from the fate of, for example,\nGollum in the Lord of the Rings, who does evil things which lead to good\nresults, and the fate of Kypris or Quetzal, whose evil is, to some degree,\nmasquerading as good. In the Urth cycle, evil that masquerades as good\nwinds up becoming good to some degree--not just accidently having a good\nresult, but changing internally to reflect the good that it imitates. This\nchange isn't absolute--Quetzal still picks Green (although possibly that was\na ploy to get them to Blue) and still drinks blood to survive. But it is\nsignificant.\n\nAt least, that's the sense I get from the juxtaposition of \"time turns our\nlies into truths\" and \"When a demon mimics a god, it can not help in some\nways becoming like a god.\" I would be surprised, with the significance this\ntheme has in the Long Sun, with Quetzal and Kypris, and in the Short Sun,\nwith the merger of the demonic Pas with the personality of the saintly Silk,\nif this same theme has no bearing on the New Sun.\n\nThis does not mean that I think the Hierogrammates are properly understood\nas archangels. Despite the name, Tzadkiel seems more sinister than that,\nand the scheme--genocide to further evolution--seems very morally\nproblematic. But, again, I'd be surprised if the presumably evil\nHierogrammates posing as presumably good angelic beings has no significance\nother than messing with our and Severian's assumptions. There's got to be\nsomething more going on than evil aliens manipulating Severian to bring\nabout devastation--I just don't know what it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/14/08, Paul B wrote:\nOkay, but then you're simply saying that evil actions can produce good\nresults. That is a truism which doesn't help determine the morality of the\nHierogrammates' actions, which is what we're after.\nI'm certainly willing to concede that some good came of what they did, but\nthat does nothing to excuse the Hierogrammates.\n\nPaul\n\nOn Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 1:58 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think it means anything like the idea that everything is part of\nGod's plan and thus morality is meaningless. I think it means something\nmuch more mundane--that, as Severian himself notes \"time turns our lies into\ntruths.\" In an even less poetic phrasing, habituation works--we become the\nthing we discipline ourself to feign being because that's how character is\nshaped.\n\nWhen the lie in question is that we speak for the divine, habituation and\nthe Increate together act to annex our actions. For Patera Quetzal, a\nbloodsucking alien pretending to be a kindly old priest, this meant that he\ncalled off the human sacrifices and generally operated as a strong and\nfaithful leader for his flock. For Kypris, and arguably even for Pas, it\nmeans that the sham religion of the Whorl is still operating to some degree\nto further the Outsider's ends.\n\nI'm suggesting that a similar explanation could be at work behind the\nplans of the Hierogrammates, although in a more opaque manner. I am not\nsuggesting that there is no basis for judging the actions of the\nHierogrammates--their part in a divine plan could be necessary but\ncompletely unwitting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807141408t519a88d2qab1f74c7a68c19b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-14T21:08:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807141316x1af9c5f3lcac810ccef5259cf@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Accidental outcomes have nothing to do with it. I'm saying that an evil act\nthat results in a good outcome is still evil, even if the good outcome was\nintended." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:16 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:\nI think Wolfe's point is deeper than merely \"evil actions can produce good\nresults.\" There's a significant difference from the fate of, for example,\nGollum in the Lord of the Rings, who does evil things which lead to good\nresults, and the fate of Kypris or Quetzal, whose evil is, to some degree,\nmasquerading as good. In the Urth cycle, evil that masquerades as good\nwinds up becoming good to some degree--not just accidently having a good\nresult, but changing internally to reflect the good that it imitates. This\nchange isn't absolute--Quetzal still picks Green (although possibly that was\na ploy to get them to Blue) and still drinks blood to survive. But it is\nsignificant.\n\nAt least, that's the sense I get from the juxtaposition of \"time turns our\nlies into truths\" and \"When a demon mimics a god, it can not help in some\nways becoming like a god.\" I would be surprised, with the significance this\ntheme has in the Long Sun, with Quetzal and Kypris, and in the Short Sun,\nwith the merger of the demonic Pas with the personality of the saintly Silk,\nif this same theme has no bearing on the New Sun.\n\nThis does not mean that I think the Hierogrammates are properly understood\nas archangels. Despite the name, Tzadkiel seems more sinister than that,\nand the scheme--genocide to further evolution--seems very morally\nproblematic. But, again, I'd be surprised if the presumably evil\nHierogrammates posing as presumably good angelic beings has no significance\nother than messing with our and Severian's assumptions. There's got to be\nsomething more going on than evil aliens manipulating Severian to bring\nabout devastation--I just don't know what it is.\n\nOn 7/14/08, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay, but then you're simply saying that evil actions can produce good\nresults. That is a truism which doesn't help determine the morality of the\nHierogrammates' actions, which is what we're after.\nI'm certainly willing to concede that some good came of what they did, but\nthat does nothing to excuse the Hierogrammates.\n\nPaul\n\nOn Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 1:58 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think it means anything like the idea that everything is part of\nGod's plan and thus morality is meaningless. I think it means something\nmuch more mundane--that, as Severian himself notes \"time turns our lies into\ntruths.\" In an even less poetic phrasing, habituation works--we become the\nthing we discipline ourself to feign being because that's how character is\nshaped.\n\nWhen the lie in question is that we speak for the divine, habituation and\nthe Increate together act to annex our actions. For Patera Quetzal, a\nbloodsucking alien pretending to be a kindly old priest, this meant that he\ncalled off the human sacrifices and generally operated as a strong and\nfaithful leader for his flock. For Kypris, and arguably even for Pas, it\nmeans that the sham religion of the Whorl is still operating to some degree\nto further the Outsider's ends.\n\nI'm suggesting that a similar explanation could be at work behind the\nplans of the Hierogrammates, although in a more opaque manner. I am not\nsuggesting that there is no basis for judging the actions of the\nHierogrammates--their part in a divine plan could be necessary but\ncompletely unwitting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001601c8e5fb$9863f9e0$70cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-14T21:50:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807141408t519a88d2qab1f74c7a68c19b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nGiven all this, I still can't figure out why you believe that the\nHierogrammates are working directly for the Increate. They weren't\ncreated directly by him; they display no apparent superiority to\nman apart from wielding greater power; their explicit agenda is\nentirely self-serving with no hint of holiness or whatever. And so\non ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could be summed up as basically what Dave Tallman said last month about a\nfive-volume heroic epic being turned into a horror story if Ushas was\nintended by Wolfe to be viewed as a bad thing. I don't think Wolfe would\nhave written such a story, and extra-textual comments he has made suggest\nthat he didn't--the stuff about the \"do nothing future\" and Severian being,\ndespite his horrific nurturing and obvious character flaws, a man trying to\ndo the right thing.\n\nUrth was unique as the birthplace of humanity, both from the perspective of\nthe Increate and the Hierogrammates, which is why Apheta said that the\nHieros, if they were to be reproduced at all in Briah, would come from that\nparticular \"strand of your race\" on Urth, presumably because that is the way\nit happened before in that other universe. No other planet would do.\n\nThere is no logical justification for Sev, as Epitome, to be truly\nrepresentative of Urth's people (he ruled only a small fraction of the\nplanet's people and was elected by none of them), *unless* he is\nnevertheless truly a religious figure, in the same sense that Christ could\ntake upon himself the sins of all mankind. In practical terms, all the\npeoples of Urth would be wiped out by the birth pangs of Ushas, and they\nwere. So Sev was de facto the Epitome of Urth, and I think that's why Wolfe\nput him in that role.\n\nThe Hierogrammates had the power to destroy Urth and create Ushas without\nbothering with the religious rigmarole that went on in URTH. If they were\nsimply bad guys, they could have skipped all that stuff and gone on to\npursue their nefarious ends. What would the consent of the condemned matter\nto them? But it did matter. I think it mattered because that is the way the\nIncreate wanted it, just as in Christianity people must accept Jesus as\nSavior in order to be saved. I think the Increate imposed the condition of\nconsent from the people of Urth upon the Hierogrammates, so they had to be\nworking directly for the Increate.\n\nThe destruction of Urth was not just a generic natural disaster that\nresulted in great loss of life. It was a deliberate act that rewrote the\nIncreate's creation. I don't think Wolfe's omnipotent God would have\npermitted that to happen to mankind's home unless it served some greater\npurpose, whatever that purpose might have been.\n\n(FWIW, I have a hard time fitting the futuristic Green Man into the\nprospective Hieros line. He seems to be rather a pacific fellow whose kind\nwill not even kill to eat. It's hard to imagine his kind will produce the\ncruel men who fashion Hierogrammates in Briah. Maybe he signals the end of\nthe senseless cycles.)\n\nThat the Hierogrammates also had their own agenda, lied and manipulated\nevents and people, doesn't change anything. It just shows that they were\nimperfect beings, as are all beings who are not God in Wolfe's scheme of\nthings, just like the gods in the upper tiers of the Seven Worlds Cosmology\nin TWK who pursued their own ends.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487BD56E.2010206@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-14T22:38:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807141316x1af9c5f3lcac810ccef5259cf@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nAt least, that's the sense I get from the juxtaposition of \"time turns \nour lies into truths\" and \"When a demon mimics a god, it can not help in \nsome ways becoming like a god.\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This does not mean that I think the Hierogrammates are properly \nunderstood as archangels. Despite the name, Tzadkiel seems more \nsinister than that, and the scheme--genocide to further evolution--seems \nvery morally problematic. But, again, I'd be surprised if the \npresumably evil Hierogrammates posing as presumably good angelic beings \nhas no significance other than messing with our and Severian's \nassumptions. There's got to be something more going on than evil aliens \nmanipulating Severian to bring about devastation--I just don't know what \nit is. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm thinking it is intended that the Hieros built the Hierogrammates out \nof hubris in attempt to make a perfect, godlike creature. They are thus \nliving graven images and as false gods they pose at being God but fall \nshort. Tzadkiel personally aims a bit lower by taking the name of angel, \nbut is still sorely flawed. The 'Grammates are the BOTNS equivalent of \nDOORS' Goddess or the deities in the SOLDIER books; beings of real but \ninferior spiritual power. They can play the roles of God or one of the \nheavenly host, but eventually limits and conflicts of interest will \nbreak down the facade.\n\nIn this light, the Hiergrammates may then be more properly considered \nevil creations than evil beings; they may not have been given the choice \nto not pursue the Hieros' agenda, or to consider if their mandate may \nnot come from the Increate." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-15T01:36:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<487BD56E.2010206@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy, that was a very good post below and I agree with almost all of it. I also see\n little justification for Sev to be the Epitome of Urth. If there was a legitimate \ntest he passed it was having the bravery to claim the title when tall, young \nstrapping Zak is there to fill the role and friends and enemies are patting him\n on the back for playing decoy. Also, I agree that the Green Man does not fit \nwell into the scenario. Seems like he might have been a cool idea Wolfe had\n that needed to be inserted somehow in the story.\n\nPaul says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You persist in making unwarranted assumptions.\nTzadkiel says, and I doubt you'll claim he's lying in this case, that he\nmade a probabilistic guess about Severian, which did indeed turn out right.\nErgo, even a Hierogrammate's foresight is not perfect.\nIf you intend on making unusual claims about various properties of the\nHierogrammates, be it angel-hood or omniscience, please substantiate them\nwith some references." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry Paul, it was an egregious error and I promise to do better in the future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It could be summed up as basically what Dave Tallman said last month about a\nfive-volume heroic epic being turned into a horror story if Ushas was\nintended by Wolfe to be viewed as a bad thing. I don't think Wolfe would\nhave written such a story, and extra-textual comments he has made suggest\nthat he didn't--the stuff about the \"do nothing future\" and Severian being,\ndespite his horrific nurturing and obvious character flaws, a man trying to\ndo the right thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Urth was unique as the birthplace of humanity, both from the perspective of\nthe Increate and the Hierogrammates, which is why Apheta said that the\nHieros, if they were to be reproduced at all in Briah, would come from that\nparticular \"strand of your race\" on Urth, presumably because that is the way\nit happened before in that other universe. No other planet would do.\n\nThere is no logical justification for Sev, as Epitome, to be truly\nrepresentative of Urth's people (he ruled only a small fraction of the\nplanet's people and was elected by none of them), *unless* he is\nnevertheless truly a religious figure, in the same sense that Christ could\ntake upon himself the sins of all mankind. In practical terms, all the\npeoples of Urth would be wiped out by the birth pangs of Ushas, and they\nwere. So Sev was de facto the Epitome of Urth, and I think that's why Wolfe\nput him in that role.\n\nThe Hierogrammates had the power to destroy Urth and create Ushas without\nbothering with the religious rigmarole that went on in URTH. If they were\nsimply bad guys, they could have skipped all that stuff and gone on to\npursue their nefarious ends. What would the consent of the condemned matter\nto them? But it did matter. I think it mattered because that is the way the\nIncreate wanted it, just as in Christianity people must accept Jesus as\nSavior in order to be saved. I think the Increate imposed the condition of\nconsent from the people of Urth upon the Hierogrammates, so they had to be\nworking directly for the Increate.\n\nThe destruction of Urth was not just a generic natural disaster that\nresulted in great loss of life. It was a deliberate act that rewrote the\nIncreate's creation. I don't think Wolfe's omnipotent God would have\npermitted that to happen to mankind's home unless it served some greater\npurpose, whatever that purpose might have been.\n\n(FWIW, I have a hard time fitting the futuristic Green Man into the\nprospective Hieros line. He seems to be rather a pacific fellow whose kind\nwill not even kill to eat. It's hard to imagine his kind will produce the\ncruel men who fashion Hierogrammates in Briah. Maybe he signals the end of\nthe senseless cycles.)\n\nThat the Hierogrammates also had their own agenda, lied and manipulated\nevents and people, doesn't change anything. It just shows that they were\nimperfect beings, as are all beings who are not God in Wolfe's scheme of\nthings, just like the gods in the upper tiers of the Seven Worlds Cosmology\nin TWK who pursued their own ends.<" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8e63d$84df9d60$b6cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-15T05:42:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another point about why I think the Hierogrammates worked directly for the\nIncreate that I have mentioned in the past but forgot to mention this time\nis that business about them being \"designated as those who recorded the\nrescripts of the Increate.\" (URTH, XIX, 138) How should rescript be defined\nin this context? The OED lists, in order, (slightly abbreviated):\n\n1) a. Decretal epistle from the Pope in reply to some question or difficulty\nreferred to him; Papal decision, decree or edict.\n\n b. Reply sent by a Roman emperor to a magistrate or other person\nconsulting him on a doubtful point of law or as to the action to be taken in\nparticular circumstances.\n\n2) Any decree, edict, order, or formal announcement made by a ruler or\ngoverning body, or having an official character.\n\n3) Something written over again; a rewriting.\n------------------------------------------------------------\n\nI think that, no matter how one defines it, rescript strongly implies that\nthe Hierogrammates were in direct contact with the Increate.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-15T18:20:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8e63d$84df9d60$b6cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Paul B posts:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Any society is comprised of individuals on a continuum of cognitive\nability. To let this govern morality is unfair at best, and horrifying at\nworst." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is why letting the Hierogrammates off simply on the basis of their\nsuperior understanding is an abhorrent idea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I think this ignores is that the continuum needn't end at the human\nwith the lowest cognition, it can extend through the range of animals down \nto the protozoans (and beyond?). Perhaps Paul is one of that small minority of \npeople who consider all animals to be of equal moral equivalence to human beings, \nequally able to govern morality as any person. If so, his argument makes sense.\n\nIf he is not then I assume he is in the majority and considers there to be a gap\nwhich separates animals and humans on a moral basis. This gap means that\nanimals are separated; not on the same cognitive continuum as adult members \nof human society. Thus we assume the right to kill some populations of animals \n(mosquitoes), corral others in game preserves (tigers), use fake mating calls to herd\nand protect them (whales), put some in zoos, eat some of them etc.\n\nIf we were discussing the real world, I could see Paul's point. But we are in a fictional\nworld now. In this world Baldanders is above average in perception but still human, \nstill on the human continuum. In BotNS, Hierogrammates are not human. They have \npowers of perception and travel which dwarf the gap between humans and animals. \nWolfe makes sure we readers are given hierodules, hierarchs and green men to know\nthat Hierogrammates are several orders of magnitude greater than human being.\nHumans judging Hierogrammates carries the weight of lemurs judging the wildlife \npreservation efforts of the current Madagascar government administration.\n\nI think the view of beings with superior morality to humans is essentially religious.\nI am not religious but I can at least stretch my brain far enough to join the majority\nof my fellow humans and understand the principle.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807151812n681e157bt6e77a38ecc01c933@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T01:12:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my mind at least, the putative gap between the Hierogrammates and humans\nis not much greater than one between a human who knows mathematics and one\nwho doesn't.\nHierogrammates are the creation of advanced humans. A creator's making a\ncreation better than itself is questionable, and the Hierogrammates give\nlittle indication of being better than high-tech humans at any rate.\n\nAfter all, humans/aliens with advanced powers like time-travel are a common\nenough SF idea. Usually these advanced, intertemporal interlopers don't get\nspecial moral privileges. Just because this particular variety of the trope\nclaims to be higher beings akin to angels is no reason to believe it.\n\nFundamentally I believe they're still the same order of beings, just with\nbells and whistles.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 2:20 PM, b sharp wrote:\n\nPaul B posts:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Any society is comprised of individuals on a continuum of cognitive\nability. To let this govern morality is unfair at best, and horrifying at\nworst." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is why letting the Hierogrammates off simply on the basis of their\nsuperior understanding is an abhorrent idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I think this ignores is that the continuum needn't end at the human\nwith the lowest cognition, it can extend through the range of animals down\nto the protozoans (and beyond?). Perhaps Paul is one of that small\nminority of\npeople who consider all animals to be of equal moral equivalence to human\nbeings,\nequally able to govern morality as any person. If so, his argument makes\nsense.\n\nIf he is not then I assume he is in the majority and considers there to be\na gap\nwhich separates animals and humans on a moral basis. This gap means that\nanimals are separated; not on the same cognitive continuum as adult members\nof human society. Thus we assume the right to kill some populations of\nanimals\n(mosquitoes), corral others in game preserves (tigers), use fake mating\ncalls to herd\nand protect them (whales), put some in zoos, eat some of them etc.\n\nIf we were discussing the real world, I could see Paul's point. But we are\nin a fictional\nworld now. In this world Baldanders is above average in perception but\nstill human,\nstill on the human continuum. In BotNS, Hierogrammates are not human. They\nhave\npowers of perception and travel which dwarf the gap between humans and\nanimals.\nWolfe makes sure we readers are given hierodules, hierarchs and green men\nto know\nthat Hierogrammates are several orders of magnitude greater than human\nbeing.\nHumans judging Hierogrammates carries the weight of lemurs judging the\nwildlife\npreservation efforts of the current Madagascar government administration.\n\nI think the view of beings with superior morality to humans is essentially\nreligious.\nI am not religious but I can at least stretch my brain far enough to join\nthe majority\nof my fellow humans and understand the principle.\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nNeed to know now? Get instant answers with Windows Live Messenger.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-07-16T02:12:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807151812n681e157bt6e77a38ecc01c933@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 15 Jul 2008, Paul B wrote:\nHierogrammates are the creation of advanced humans. A creator's making a\ncreation better than itself is questionable, and the Hierogrammates give\nlittle indication of being better than high-tech humans at any rate.\n\nAfter all, humans/aliens with advanced powers like time-travel are a common\nenough SF idea. Usually these advanced, intertemporal interlopers don't get\nspecial moral privileges. Just because this particular variety of the trope\nclaims to be higher beings akin to angels is no reason to believe it.\n\nFundamentally I believe they're still the same order of beings, just with\nbells and whistles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I think they are a step higher in the hierarchy of the great chain of \nbeing(s), ie they are of the order of angels/planets/spirits in the \nmedieval worldview. Because they have \"advanced powers like time-travel\" \nthey have escaped conventional causation, and are godlike in that sense. \nI think Wolfe's answer to the paradoxes of FTL/time travel is that you \nhave to have god-like mental abilities to keep it all straight. And as \nsuch, they are incomprehensible to creatures like us still bound in \ntime. So why do Abaia and Erebus require subjugation of the humans of \nUrth when as Severian says, they could eradicate humankind in a day?\n\nOne of the ways I see BotNS is as a dialogue with Frank Herbert in _Dune_ \nand _the God Makers_, Delany's _Empire Star_, and Stapledon's _Star \nMaker_. The Autarch *is* the K.H. with safe (cf the Vodalarii) access to \na sort of race memory, the hierogrammates *are* fiddling with the \nevolution from universe to universe both temporally/sequentially and \nsimultaneously, if the hero can attain a multiplex viewpoint, the Empire \ncan be saved. And then, even if they aren't the Increate, they still \ncan \"move in mysterious ways\" and invoke exactly the same difficulties as \nwe have with the problem of evil etc.\n\nCheers, David." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "| David Duffy (MBBS PhD) ,-_|\\\n| email: davidD at qimr.edu.au ph: INT+61+7+3362-0217 fax: -0101 / *\n| Epidemiology Unit, Queensland Institute of Medical Research \\_,-._/\n| 300 Herston Rd, Brisbane, Queensland 4029, Australia GPG 4D0B994A v" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807152100o551074e5ud02c8c1bd4391612@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T04:00:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:12 PM, David Duffy \nwrote:\n\nNo, I think they are a step higher in the hierarchy of the great chain of\nbeing(s), ie they are of the order of angels/planets/spirits in the medieval\nworldview." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Planets?! I'm sorry, I have no idea what on Urth that means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So why do Abaia and Erebus require subjugation of the humans of Urth when\nas Severian says, they could eradicate humankind in a day?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I imagine that, much like Typhon (from whom they may be descended if Scylla\nof BotNS is Scylla of BotLS), it's because they want slaves and worshipers\nrather than dead bodies. Perfectly comprehensible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of the ways I see BotNS is as a dialogue with Frank Herbert in _Dune_" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can think whatever you wish, the more important part is whether you can\nprovide evidence that it's true.\n\nWhile you're mentioning Dune, don't forget that Paul and Leto II's similar\npowers of imperfect foresight caused them no little moral agony, and Leto's\ncourse of action (which Paul didn't take because he thought it too horrible)\nwas roundly condemned by almost all of his human contemporaries, and even\nLeto himself agreed with its injustice.\nIt's entirely possible that what the Hierogrammates did to Urth was good in\nthe end, but that doesn't justify the way they did it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cheers, David." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Paul" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15592.67.142.130.22.1216181948.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-16T04:19:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807152100o551074e5ud02c8c1bd4391612@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:12 PM, David Duffy \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, I think they are a step higher in the hierarchy of the great chain\nof being(s), ie they are of the order of angels/planets/spirits in the\nmedieval worldview." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Planets?! I'm sorry, I have no idea what on Urth that means." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The World is alive and every level of the World is also alive, and has an\nintelligence and a spirit. The planets are the intelligences that rule the\nplanetary level of the World.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807152134r3da27b18n8bee01f46e2fbc60@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T04:34:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<15592.67.142.130.22.1216181948.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What are you referring to? Where does it say that Urth is alive?! I wonder\nhow it'd feel about being drowned, anyway\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 12:19 AM, wrote:\nOn Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:12 PM, David Duffy \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No, I think they are a step higher in the hierarchy of the great chain\nof being(s), ie they are of the order of angels/planets/spirits in the\nmedieval worldview." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Planets?! I'm sorry, I have no idea what on Urth that means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The World is alive and every level of the World is also alive, and has an\nintelligence and a spirit. The planets are the intelligences that rule the\nplanetary level of the World.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12196.67.142.130.22.1216183878.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-16T04:51:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807152134r3da27b18n8bee01f46e2fbc60@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am referring to the hierarchy of the great chain of being, as is David\nDuffy. This is an underlying assumption of the Christian worldview,\nalthough many modern Christians choose to deprecate it.\n\nIn this hierarchy, the World is assumed to be a living being, possessing\nan intelligence and a spirit as are all of the various levels of the\nWorld.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What are you referring to? Where does it say that Urth is alive?! I\nwonder\nhow it'd feel about being drowned, anyway\n\nPaul\n\nOn Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 12:19 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:12 PM, David Duffy\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "No, I think they are a step higher in the hierarchy of the great\nchain\nof being(s), ie they are of the order of angels/planets/spirits in\nthe\nmedieval worldview." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Planets?! I'm sorry, I have no idea what on Urth that means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The World is alive and every level of the World is also alive, and has\nan\nintelligence and a spirit. The planets are the intelligences that rule\nthe\nplanetary level of the World.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7533.67.142.130.22.1216184017.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-16T04:53:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<12196.67.142.130.22.1216183878.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By the way the World == the Universe (as moderns call it), not Urth.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am referring to the hierarchy of the great chain of being, as is David\nDuffy. This is an underlying assumption of the Christian worldview,\nalthough many modern Christians choose to deprecate it.\n\nIn this hierarchy, the World is assumed to be a living being, possessing\nan intelligence and a spirit as are all of the various levels of the\nWorld.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What are you referring to? Where does it say that Urth is alive?! I\nwonder\nhow it'd feel about being drowned, anyway\n\nPaul\n\nOn Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 12:19 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:12 PM, David Duffy\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "No, I think they are a step higher in the hierarchy of the great\nchain\nof being(s), ie they are of the order of angels/planets/spirits in\nthe\nmedieval worldview." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Planets?! I'm sorry, I have no idea what on Urth that means." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The World is alive and every level of the World is also alive, and has\nan\nintelligence and a spirit. The planets are the intelligences that rule\nthe\nplanetary level of the World.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-07-16T05:14:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807152100o551074e5ud02c8c1bd4391612@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 16 Jul 2008, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So why do Abaia and Erebus require subjugation of the humans of Urth when\nas Severian says, they could eradicate humankind in a day?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I imagine that, much like Typhon (from whom they may be descended if Scylla\nof BotNS is Scylla of BotLS), it's because they want slaves and worshipers\nrather than dead bodies. Perfectly comprehensible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One of the ways I see BotNS is as a dialogue with Frank Herbert in _Dune_" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You can think whatever you wish, the more important part is whether you can\nprovide evidence that it's true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "re Dune, _res ipsa loquitur_ -- how many other books have a hero that gets \ncontinual access to his line of forbears following a drug trip and becomes \nemperor as a result.\n\nre Empire Star, the heroine is Sai Severina, time travel...\n\nre Star Maker, which other SF writer had multiple universes with iterative \nrefinement of the inhabitants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While you're mentioning Dune, don't forget that Paul and Leto II's similar\npowers of imperfect foresight caused them no little moral agony, and Leto's\ncourse of action (which Paul didn't take because he thought it too horrible)\nwas roundly condemned by almost all of his human contemporaries, and even\nLeto himself agreed with its injustice." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, but the point is that he does make the decision which according to \nhis foreknowledge is the only long term solution. Again the point is that \nhis vision of the outcomes is certain, and so his behaviour \"right\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's entirely possible that what the Hierogrammates did to Urth was good in\nthe end, but that doesn't justify the way they did it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, most of Wolfe's oeuvre is deliberately ambiguous. In _CotA_, \nSeverian wonders if the power of the Claw comes from Abaia, and was part \nof a diabolical plan to get a torturer in as Autarch.\n\n\nDavid Duffy," } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807152243j5202f7b8s5d3e8fe12b4e2fb3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T05:43:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 1:14 AM, David Duffy \nwrote:\nSure, but the point is that he does make the decision which according to\nhis foreknowledge is the only long term solution. Again the point is that\nhis vision of the outcomes is certain, and so his behaviour \"right\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By no means! Only if you're a consequentialist (utilitarian, for example)\ndo ends justify means. And if you are, you've got more problems than it's\nworth.\n\nIs it truly hard to fathom that though evil can be used to bring about good,\nit does not itself become good because of it?\n\nIncidentally, many on the other side of this argument have at one point\ninsisted that Hierogrammate foresight is perfect. Please see Roy C.\nLackey's post a few days ago for proof that it isn't, and then stop saying\nit. It only clouds the issue.\n\nDavid Duffy," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Paul" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3512.67.142.130.26.1216190761.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-16T06:46:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807152243j5202f7b8s5d3e8fe12b4e2fb3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some people maybe take this stuff a little too seriously....\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 1:14 AM, David Duffy \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure, but the point is that he does make the decision which according to\nhis foreknowledge is the only long term solution. Again the point is\nthat\nhis vision of the outcomes is certain, and so his behaviour \"right\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By no means! Only if you're a consequentialist (utilitarian, for example)\ndo ends justify means. And if you are, you've got more problems than it's\nworth.\n\nIs it truly hard to fathom that though evil can be used to bring about\ngood,\nit does not itself become good because of it?\n\nIncidentally, many on the other side of this argument have at one point\ninsisted that Hierogrammate foresight is perfect. Please see Roy C.\nLackey's post a few days ago for proof that it isn't, and then stop saying\nit. It only clouds the issue.\n\nDavid Duffy," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487DF88D.2010403@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T13:33:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807151812n681e157bt6e77a38ecc01c933@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nAfter all, humans/aliens with advanced powers like time-travel are a \ncommon enough SF idea. Usually these advanced, intertemporal \ninterlopers don't get special moral privileges." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except for stories where they war with humanity, my experience is the \nopposite; they are almost always used as a superior moral example in \ncontrast to humanity's short-term and self-centered morality. This has \nfairly recently been taken to its ultimate extreme in the second year of \nthe revived \"Doctor Who\" when The Doctor literally and explicitly\n\n1) declares himself the ultimate moral authority of the universe.\n2) faces and defeats the devil in spiritual, intellectual, and physical \ncontests.\n3) condemns the Cybermen and the Daleks to fire and brimstone." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487DF9BB.1070303@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T13:38:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807152134r3da27b18n8bee01f46e2fbc60@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nWhat are you referring to? Where does it say that Urth is alive?! I \nwonder how it'd feel about being drowned, anyway" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not drowned, baptised and born again as Ushas with all our sins washed away." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T16:43:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<487DF9BB.1070303@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 8:38 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nPaul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What are you referring to? Where does it say that Urth is alive?! \nI wonder how it'd feel about being drowned, anyway" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not drowned, baptised and born again as Ushas with all our sins \nwashed away." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wonder how long it will be until we hear the Bush administration, \nand perhaps certain other beloved purveyors of fiction with soft spots \nfor torture and torturers, justifying waterboarding as baptism and the \nwashing away of all sins? We could not only be gaining completely- \naccurate-and-in-no-way-suspect intelligence, we could also be \nredeeming lost heathen souls for Christ.\n\nWishing I were completely joking,\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew", "address": "matthew at urth.net" }, "date": "2008-07-16T16:53:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Adam Thornton wrote:\nI wonder how long it will be until we hear the Bush administration, and\nperhaps certain other beloved purveyors of fiction with soft spots for\ntorture and torturers, justifying waterboarding as baptism and the washing\naway of all sins? We could not only be gaining\ncompletely-accurate-and-in-no-way-suspect intelligence, we could also be\nredeeming lost heathen souls for Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the Gene Wolfe mailing list, not DailyKos or LittleGreenFootballs.\n\nPlease to keep the inflammatory political content where it belongs." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2D840DD2-7B38-44A0-92A6-317917B1D94A@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T17:07:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 11:53 AM, Matthew wrote:\nOn Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wonder how long it will be until we hear the Bush administration, \nand\nperhaps certain other beloved purveyors of fiction with soft spots \nfor\ntorture and torturers, justifying waterboarding as baptism and the \nwashing\naway of all sins? We could not only be gaining\ncompletely-accurate-and-in-no-way-suspect intelligence, we could \nalso be\nredeeming lost heathen souls for Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is the Gene Wolfe mailing list, not DailyKos or \nLittleGreenFootballs.\n\nPlease to keep the inflammatory political content where it belongs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey: is the submerging of Ushas drowning, or baptism?\n\nSeriously: we're supposed to be talking about the writings of someone \nwho is a) famously conservative, and b) famously Catholic, with c) \nsome really nonstandard theology, which d) comes out all over his \nbooks, and e) not talk about politics and its intersection with \nreligion?\n\nI think that's....a bit unrealistic.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14800.72.171.0.142.1216228650.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-16T17:17:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<2D840DD2-7B38-44A0-92A6-317917B1D94A@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seriously: we're supposed to be talking about the writings of someone\nwho is ... famously Catholic, with ... some really nonstandard theology," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know Wolfe considers himself to be orthodox. What bits of heresy do you\naccuse him of? I don't see any that's explicitly in there....\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080716172549.GB29492@broggs.org>", "from": { "name": "Jeffrey Brent McBeth", "address": "mcbeth at broggs.org" }, "date": "2008-07-16T17:25:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<2D840DD2-7B38-44A0-92A6-317917B1D94A@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 12:07:07PM -0500, Adam Thornton wrote:\nPlease to keep the inflammatory political content where it belongs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hey: is the submerging of Ushas drowning, or baptism?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At least one Christian group believes that Noahs' flood did act as Earth's\nbaptism to be later followed by a baptism by fire (second coming?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seriously: we're supposed to be talking about the writings of someone who \nis a) famously conservative, and b) famously Catholic, with c) some really \nnonstandard theology, which d) comes out all over his books, and e) not \ntalk about politics and its intersection with religion?\n\nI think that's....a bit unrealistic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I didn't find your comment particularly inflammatory (I'm a bit biased\nagainst the target, so I'm not a fair judge), I think the claim that the\ncomment was more than tangentially connected to the topic at hand to be a\nbit more of a stretch than even this group is accustomed to :)\n\nJeff" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\"The man who does not read good books has no advantage over \n the man who cannot read them.\"\n -- Mark Twain\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T17:34:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<14800.72.171.0.142.1216228650.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 12:17 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seriously: we're supposed to be talking about the writings of someone\nwho is ... famously Catholic, with ... some really nonstandard \ntheology," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know Wolfe considers himself to be orthodox. What bits of heresy \ndo you\naccuse him of? I don't see any that's explicitly in there...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The outright rejection of pacifism (which I believe is pretty clear in \nthe interviews) seems to directly repudiate much of the Sermon on the \nMount, which I think I am being pretty orthodox in believing to be \namong the very centralmost of Christian positions (although, yes, of \ncourse you can point to the moneychangers, and, yes, then you can \npoint to Christ carrying a scourge...but I think that most orthodox \ntheologians would react pretty violently to the suggestion of Christ- \nas-Torturer, which is among the fundamental metaphors underlying the \nNew Sun).\n\nI keep getting whiffs of Manicheanism as well, although that is \nproving much harder to pin down.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<23C90E9D-2ADC-49B6-A4ED-DD8C7D2B59F9@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T17:42:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080716172549.GB29492@broggs.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 12:25 PM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote:\nWhile I didn't find your comment particularly inflammatory (I'm a \nbit biased\nagainst the target, so I'm not a fair judge), I think the claim that \nthe\ncomment was more than tangentially connected to the topic at hand to \nbe a\nbit more of a stretch than even this group is accustomed to :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a fair cop.\n\nAnd, with regard to the Flood....perhaps modern society overly plays \nDOWN the \"death and\" aspect of the death-and-rebirth that baptism IS.\n\nThat is....maybe baptism is SUPPOSED to make you feel like you're \ndrowning, and, if I were being--just suppose--a reactionary Catholic \nwho really thinks Vatican II was a lousy idea (this is a position I am \nmerely arrantly speculating about, with no indication that Wolfe \nactually believes it)--I might actually *want* to revisit the idea \nthat my religion was, in fact, a much scarier thing than the smiling- \nnice-forgiveness-and-bunnies-and-little-tweeting-birds thing that my \neffete society would like to present it as. (_Pirate Freedom_ \ncertainly takes the position that mealymouthed-niceness-is-corrosive \npretty damn explicitly.)\n\nSo, let's remind the readers that rebirth means *having to die \nfirst*....and, hey, for an encore, anyone want to talk about the brain \nfeast as Holy Communion? One presumes it's a Black Mass--that is, a \nghastly *parody* of Communion--but I wonder if the opposite case can \nbe made?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807161048x2f0f9f64wae0e77189c2aa533@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T17:48:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Catholic Christianity neither currently nor historically requires pacifism.\n\n\nWolfe is not a heretic. He plays with extra-orthodox but not unorthodox\nideas, if that's clear--he believes or seems to believe many things that are\npermissible but not required for a Catholic, but I've yet to encounter an\novert endorsement of some doctrine that Catholics are forbidden to hold in\nhis works.\n\nAs for Manicheanism, I don't detect much of that in his works at all.\nManicheanism is dualistic, and the cosmology of The Wizard-Knight more or\nless explicitly rejects dualism, as do a number of bits and pieces\nthroughout the Urth cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/16/08, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\n\nOn Jul 16, 2008, at 12:17 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seriously: we're supposed to be talking about the writings of someone\nwho is ... famously Catholic, with ... some really nonstandard theology," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know Wolfe considers himself to be orthodox. What bits of heresy do you\naccuse him of? I don't see any that's explicitly in there...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The outright rejection of pacifism (which I believe is pretty clear in the\ninterviews) seems to directly repudiate much of the Sermon on the Mount,\nwhich I think I am being pretty orthodox in believing to be among the very\ncentralmost of Christian positions (although, yes, of course you can point\nto the moneychangers, and, yes, then you can point to Christ carrying a\nscourge...but I think that most orthodox theologians would react pretty\nviolently to the suggestion of Christ-as-Torturer, which is among the\nfundamental metaphors underlying the New Sun).\n\nI keep getting whiffs of Manicheanism as well, although that is proving\nmuch harder to pin down.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807161053x52460f9ie8d778973e60f98a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T17:53:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<23C90E9D-2ADC-49B6-A4ED-DD8C7D2B59F9@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read Severian's consumption of Thecla, at least, as another instance of\nWolfe's \"evil masquerading as good turns out to be good via divine action.\"\nTo Vodalus and his cronies, the feast is a Black Mass, but to Severian, via\nthe power of the Claw/the New Sun, it is an act akin to the Eucharist, as he\nreally does achieve a mystical communion with a sort of resurrected Thecla." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/16/08, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\n\nOn Jul 16, 2008, at 12:25 PM, Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "While I didn't find your comment particularly inflammatory (I'm a bit\nbiased\nagainst the target, so I'm not a fair judge), I think the claim that the\ncomment was more than tangentially connected to the topic at hand to be a\nbit more of a stretch than even this group is accustomed to :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a fair cop.\n\nAnd, with regard to the Flood....perhaps modern society overly plays DOWN\nthe \"death and\" aspect of the death-and-rebirth that baptism IS.\n\nThat is....maybe baptism is SUPPOSED to make you feel like you're drowning,\nand, if I were being--just suppose--a reactionary Catholic who really thinks\nVatican II was a lousy idea (this is a position I am merely arrantly\nspeculating about, with no indication that Wolfe actually believes it)--I\nmight actually *want* to revisit the idea that my religion was, in fact, a\nmuch scarier thing than the\nsmiling-nice-forgiveness-and-bunnies-and-little-tweeting-birds thing that my\neffete society would like to present it as. (_Pirate Freedom_ certainly\ntakes the position that mealymouthed-niceness-is-corrosive pretty damn\nexplicitly.)\n\nSo, let's remind the readers that rebirth means *having to die\nfirst*....and, hey, for an encore, anyone want to talk about the brain feast\nas Holy Communion? One presumes it's a Black Mass--that is, a ghastly\n*parody* of Communion--but I wonder if the opposite case can be made?\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370807161055s14a0550cu9cf7ae9eb25a717e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T17:55:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8e63d$84df9d60$b6cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1. Apologies to all on the list for spam sent from my account yestermorn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 10:42 PM, Roy C. Lackey \nwrote:\nAnother point about why I think the Hierogrammates worked directly for the\nIncreate that I have mentioned in the past but forgot to mention this time\nis that business about them being \"designated as those who recorded the\nrescripts of the Increate.\" (URTH, XIX, 138) How should rescript be defined\nin this context? The OED lists, in order, (slightly abbreviated):" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had forgotten this quote. As far as I am concerned it means that Sev,\nat least, believes that the Hiero-Foos have had a Word.\n\nOn the other hand, Sev's been wrong about things before." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant\nand, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and\na bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<092CEF84-9BFC-4321-A4DC-4266D94FC3DF@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T17:56:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807161048x2f0f9f64wae0e77189c2aa533@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 12:48 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nWolfe is not a heretic. He plays with extra-orthodox but not \nunorthodox ideas, if that's clear--he believes or seems to believe \nmany things that are permissible but not required for a Catholic, \nbut I've yet to encounter an overt endorsement of some doctrine that \nCatholics are forbidden to hold in his works." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So--and I mean this less snarkily than it sounds--he's sort of in the \nMel Gibson camp then?\n\nCome to think of it, most of the dualisms I can think of are probably \nanti-Manichean, as they demonstrate that the demiurgic creation is a \nfatally flawed creation which ends up evilly even with good initial \nintent. (_Memorare_, here, or indeed the _WK_ cosmology)\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807161106x1d1d6da6j873076c8ed05bfbc@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T18:06:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<092CEF84-9BFC-4321-A4DC-4266D94FC3DF@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, no, I don't think he's in the Mel Gibson camp. Some of his\nnon-mainstream views seem to be, if anything, on the other side--he\napparently gives great salvific power to faith in non-Christian religions,\nand even to faith in religions with explicitly false or evil gods, and he\nbelieves (or says he believes, of course) that pagan gods were real beings\nbut not demons. So I'd say he's on the broad-minded side of orthodox\nCatholicism.\n\nI think it's true that Wolfe draws from that Neo-Platonic mess that\ninfluenced Gnosticism, the Kabbalah and most of the Western mystical\ntradition, but I'm not sure how much of that is setting and how much is\nbelief." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/16/08, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Jul 16, 2008, at 12:48 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe is not a heretic. He plays with extra-orthodox but not unorthodox\nideas, if that's clear--he believes or seems to believe many things that are\npermissible but not required for a Catholic, but I've yet to encounter an\novert endorsement of some doctrine that Catholics are forbidden to hold in\nhis works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So--and I mean this less snarkily than it sounds--he's sort of in the Mel\nGibson camp then?\n\nCome to think of it, most of the dualisms I can think of are probably\nanti-Manichean, as they demonstrate that the demiurgic creation is a fatally\nflawed creation which ends up evilly even with good initial intent.\n (_Memorare_, here, or indeed the _WK_ cosmology)\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807161110j7d7757b1t2c4589cff0655396@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T18:10:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3512.67.142.130.26.1216190761.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:46 AM, wrote:\nSome people maybe take this stuff a little too seriously...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seeing such a spirited defense put up for murder on a planetary scale\ncertainly gets one's hackles up." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8409.72.171.0.142.1216232039.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-16T18:13:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 12:17 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Seriously: we're supposed to be talking about the writings of someone\nwho is ... famously Catholic, with ... some really nonstandard\ntheology," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know Wolfe considers himself to be orthodox. What bits of heresy\ndo you accuse him of? I don't see any that's explicitly in there...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The outright rejection of pacifism (which I believe is pretty clear in\nthe interviews) seems to directly repudiate much of the Sermon on the\nMount, which I think I am being pretty orthodox in believing to be\namong the very centralmost of Christian positions" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not a position. It's a speech." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " (although, yes, of\ncourse you can point to the moneychangers, and, yes, then you can\npoint to Christ carrying a scourge..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, render unto Caesar what is Caesar's (if called upon to serve in the\nmilitary, for instance). Pacifism is at best a Christian ideal, I don't\neven know if it is that, there are so many exceptions for just wars and so\non." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " but I think that most orthodox\ntheologians would react pretty violently to the suggestion of Christ-\nas-Torturer, which is among the fundamental metaphors underlying the\nNew Sun)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The ones I have discussed it with didn't think it was too extreme.\n\nI don't think that Wolfe is the first person to point that whole bit out,\neither.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6EEC6C7E-119C-4BF5-81AC-B9C2374454B0@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T18:17:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807161106x1d1d6da6j873076c8ed05bfbc@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 1:06 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nOh, no, I don't think he's in the Mel Gibson camp. Some of his non- \nmainstream views seem to be, if anything, on the other side--he \napparently gives great salvific power to faith in non-Christian \nreligions, and even to faith in religions with explicitly false or \nevil gods, and he believes (or says he believes, of course) that \npagan gods were real beings but not demons. So I'd say he's on the \nbroad-minded side of orthodox Catholicism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Is it actually a permitted doctrine in Catholicism \nthat faith in non-Christian religions can have salvific power? \nDoesn't that explicitly contradict John 14:6? Which is *another* of \nwhat I--brought up in, admittedly, a faith without, to be kind, much \nof a formal intellectual tradition--considered to be one of those \nbedrock passages.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9228.72.171.0.142.1216232509.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-16T18:21:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<092CEF84-9BFC-4321-A4DC-4266D94FC3DF@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 12:48 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe is not a heretic. He plays with extra-orthodox but not\nunorthodox ideas, if that's clear--he believes or seems to believe\nmany things that are permissible but not required for a Catholic,\nbut I've yet to encounter an overt endorsement of some doctrine that\nCatholics are forbidden to hold in his works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So--and I mean this less snarkily than it sounds--he's sort of in the\nMel Gibson camp then?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does Mel Gibson reject Vatican II? If so, Mel Gibson is a heretic. I\nbelieve that Gene Wolfe, in common with the current and the previous\npopes, subscribes to a conservative interpretation of Vatican II, but a\ncouncil of the church is a council of the church, you can't pick and\nchoose amongst them and remain an orthodox Catholic.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<14682.72.171.0.142.1216232940.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-16T18:29:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807161110j7d7757b1t2c4589cff0655396@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:46 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some people maybe take this stuff a little too seriously...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seeing such a spirited defense put up for murder on a planetary scale\ncertainly gets one's hackles up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is it, one supernova a year, somewhere in the Universe? And common or\ngarden variety novas are much more common, I don't have any idea how\ncommon.\n\nI don't see anything to get worked up about, particularly. Everyone dies.\nSure, not everyone is ready to go and most people suffer some and flail\nabout some more, but in the end the result is the same and you might as\nwell be calm and cheerful about it. If a bad thing happens, and then you\nhave negative emotions about it, two bad things have happened.\n\nHave you read the Gita?\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4961.72.171.0.142.1216233295.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-16T18:34:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<6EEC6C7E-119C-4BF5-81AC-B9C2374454B0@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 1:06 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh, no, I don't think he's in the Mel Gibson camp. Some of his non-\nmainstream views seem to be, if anything, on the other side--he\napparently gives great salvific power to faith in non-Christian\nreligions, and even to faith in religions with explicitly false or\nevil gods, and he believes (or says he believes, of course) that\npagan gods were real beings but not demons. So I'd say he's on the\nbroad-minded side of orthodox Catholicism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Is it actually a permitted doctrine in Catholicism\nthat faith in non-Christian religions can have salvific power?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. It is the faith that saves, not the religion. Also, if someone is\nbeing another religion, it is because that is what God wants them to do.\nNothing happens save by the will of God.\n\nVatican II explicitly states that the other guy's religion is right for\nhim. Judaism is only for Jews: the Jewish ideal is not that everyone\nshould be a Jew, but that everyone should be a good whatever-they-are.\nIslam (incidentally) declares no coercion in religion, as well as\nexplicitly recognizing various 'religions of the Book' as valid. There are\nactually a fair number of tolerant religions. Sikhism.....\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807161137v2c1976d0u2f7b4d3cc39b9169@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T18:37:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<6EEC6C7E-119C-4BF5-81AC-B9C2374454B0@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, it is, and yes, there is some trouble squaring it with John 14:6, which\ncauses trouble with conservative Protestant groups. The Catechism discusses\nthis in less than explicit terms, but (cherry-picking quotes), faith in\nJudaism is more or less explicitly salvific:\n\n\"The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a\nresponse to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews \"belong the\nsonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and\nthe promises...for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.\"329\n\nIslam, too, has some sort of salvific power: \"The plan of salvation also\nincludes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom\nare the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together\nwith us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.\"\n\nJudaism and Islam are \"aimed at\" the same Being as Christianity, and so\npartake of its salvific power to some degree. Thus Wolfe treats worship of\nthe Increate and the Outsider, and to some extent, worship of Pas (to the\ndegree that Pas is innocently mistaken as the God of monotheism.)\n\nThis sort of teaching is squared with John 14:6 and other proclamations of\nChristian exclusivism thusly (emphasis mine):\n\n\"Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the\nChurch, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ\nis the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body\nwhich is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith\nand Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the\nChurch which men enter through Baptism as through a door. *Hence they could\nnot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary\nby God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.*\n336\n\n*847 * This affirmation *is not aimed at those who, through no fault of\ntheir own, do not know Christ* *and his Church*: Those who, through no\nfault of their own,* do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who\nnevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in\ntheir actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their\nconscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.*337\"\n\nSo, yes, there's some wiggle room provided. Catholics can quibble about\nwhat counts as \"knowing\" that the Church is necessary for salvation and what\nkind of ignorance is \"through no fault of one's own\"? What counts as\n\"seeking God with a sincere heart\"?\n\nI think Wolfe's answers can be found through the Urth cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 7/16/08, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Jul 16, 2008, at 1:06 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n\nOh, no, I don't think he's in the Mel Gibson camp. Some of his\nnon-mainstream views seem to be, if anything, on the other side--he\napparently gives great salvific power to faith in non-Christian religions,\nand even to faith in religions with explicitly false or evil gods, and he\nbelieves (or says he believes, of course) that pagan gods were real beings\nbut not demons. So I'd say he's on the broad-minded side of orthodox\nCatholicism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Is it actually a permitted doctrine in Catholicism that\nfaith in non-Christian religions can have salvific power? Doesn't that\nexplicitly contradict John 14:6? Which is *another* of what I--brought up\nin, admittedly, a faith without, to be kind, much of a formal intellectual\ntradition--considered to be one of those bedrock passages.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Knight", "address": "jacobeiserman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T18:40:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<6EEC6C7E-119C-4BF5-81AC-B9C2374454B0@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n Whoa, whoa, whoa. Is it actually a permitted doctrine in Catholicism\nthat faith in non-Christian religions can have salvific power? Doesn't that\nexplicitly contradict John 14:6? Which is *another* of what I--brought up\nin, admittedly, a faith without, to be kind, much of a formal intellectual\ntradition--considered to be one of those bedrock passages." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No less a Christian luminary than C.S. Lewis--admittedly an Anglican rather\nthan a Catholic, but one whom I recall Gene Wolfe mentioning as an\ninfluence--implied believing that non-Christian religions, while not\nnecessarily possessed of \"salvific power\" themselves, could have many true\nbelievers within their ranks who unconsciously deduced the truth of the\nChristian religion through the false disguise of their own religion and be\nsaved without explicitly recognizing Christianity. (Stated most explicitly\nin \"The Last Battle\", where a kind Calormene soldier and devout believer in\nTash is accepted into the Narnian equivalent of heaven.)\n\nAlso, as a member of a historically pacifist Christian sect (the\nMennonites), I can state unequivocally that pacifism is NOT a \"do-or-die\"\narticle of the Christian orthodox mainstream. Many Mennonites were\ntortured, murdered, and otherwise persecuted by the Catholic and Protestant\nauthorities for their \"heretical\" views in the early 16th century\n(advocating not only pacifism but the separation of Church and State). And\nnot to stir up a can of worms...but George W. Bush. Need I say more?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807161148s6dacf83ap3e32d3c48735c740@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T18:48:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<14682.72.171.0.142.1216232940.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only a condensed version in a Mahabharata translation - what's its purpose\nhere?\n\nSupernovae have nothing to do with it, this is foreknowledge of death\nresulting from premeditated action, what many would call \"murder\". The\nHierogrammates might be able to bargain it down to manslaughter.\n\nI'm one of those (apparently few) simple, naive souls that believes that\nmurder is evil. Even if it's necessary, it's still evil.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:29 PM, wrote:\nOn Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:46 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Some people maybe take this stuff a little too seriously...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seeing such a spirited defense put up for murder on a planetary scale\ncertainly gets one's hackles up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is it, one supernova a year, somewhere in the Universe? And common or\ngarden variety novas are much more common, I don't have any idea how\ncommon.\n\nI don't see anything to get worked up about, particularly. Everyone dies.\nSure, not everyone is ready to go and most people suffer some and flail\nabout some more, but in the end the result is the same and you might as\nwell be calm and cheerful about it. If a bad thing happens, and then you\nhave negative emotions about it, two bad things have happened.\n\nHave you read the Gita?\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5288.72.171.0.142.1216234635.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-16T18:57:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807161148s6dacf83ap3e32d3c48735c740@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only a condensed version in a Mahabharata translation - what's its purpose\nhere?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "!!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Supernovae have nothing to do with it, this is foreknowledge of death\nresulting from premeditated action, what many would call \"murder\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are assuming that they are all random. What if you could cause them?\n\nOr meteor strikes, directing large rocks at planets inhabited by one's\nenemies is well within human capability, which the other is not just yet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The\nHierogrammates might be able to bargain it down to manslaughter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm one of those (apparently few) simple, naive souls that believes that\nmurder is evil. Even if it's necessary, it's still evil." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree.\n\nOf course, as sinful creatures, evil is sort of our stock in trade.\n\nI also differentiate between murder and homicide: all murder is homicide,\nnot all homicide is murder.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807161531x6c22c939vd5cf010aa29051bd@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T22:31:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<5288.72.171.0.142.1216234635.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:57 PM, wrote:\n!!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Come on, don't just \"!!\" me, explain - I'm genuinely curious.\n\nYou are assuming that they are all random. What if you could cause them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or meteor strikes, directing large rocks at planets inhabited by one's\nenemies is well within human capability, which the other is not just yet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Sure, why not. (Though I could've sworn you were referring to an act of\nnature - an intentionally caused supernova a year would be a bit much) But\nif it's wilfully caused and results in death, you've got an ethical problem,\nand then it is something to get worked up about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also differentiate between murder and homicide: all murder is homicide,\nnot all homicide is murder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, that's why I (jokingly) mentioned manslaughter (less severe than\nmurder). The severity may vary, but purposefully causing death of unwilling\nsouls is uniformly a bad thing.\n\nThroughout this discussion I've tried to establish that it's still a bad\nthing, even if done by time-traveling aliens from another dimension, and\neven if it's done for a good cause.\n\nI've been surprised by the resistance to this idea." } ] }, { "message_id": "<487E8097.2080907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T23:13:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Jul 16, 2008, at 8:38 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What are you referring to? Where does it say that Urth is alive?! I \nwonder how it'd feel about being drowned, anyway" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not drowned, baptised and born again as Ushas with all our sins washed \naway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wonder how long it will be until we hear the Bush administration, and " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wasn't aware Wolfe was getting into political writing! When did he start?\n\nSeveral days of extremely high tides doesn't literally drown a planet, \nthough it does drastically change the character of the part that the \npuny humans use to the point it can be metaphorically drowned." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487E82C1.6050004@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T23:22:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<12196.67.142.130.22.1216183878.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI am referring to the hierarchy of the great chain of being, as is David\nDuffy. This is an underlying assumption of the Christian worldview,\nalthough many modern Christians choose to deprecate it.\n\nIn this hierarchy, the World is assumed to be a living being, possessing\nan intelligence and a spirit as are all of the various levels of the\nWorld." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been a lifelong Christian, and this is the first I've heard the \nGreat Chain of Being explicitly said to have a place in Christian \ndoctrine. It certainly is not part of the Apostles's, Nicean, or \nConstantinoplean Creeds, or any other definitive statement of Christian \nbelief I've seen." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487E855A.5080907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T23:33:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Jul 16, 2008, at 12:17 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Seriously: we're supposed to be talking about the writings of someone\nwho is ... famously Catholic, with ... some really nonstandard theology," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know Wolfe considers himself to be orthodox. What bits of heresy do you\naccuse him of? I don't see any that's explicitly in there...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The outright rejection of pacifism (which I believe is pretty clear in \nthe interviews) seems to directly repudiate much of the Sermon on the \nMount, which I think I am being pretty orthodox in believing to be among \nthe very centralmost of Christian positions (although, yes, of course \nyou can point to the moneychangers, and, yes, then you can point to \nChrist carrying a scourge..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did you miss the various Crusades? Or hymns like \"Onward Christian \nSoldiers?\" Militarism's been given the imprimatur for a long time." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487E865C.2010200@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T23:38:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<6EEC6C7E-119C-4BF5-81AC-B9C2374454B0@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Jul 16, 2008, at 1:06 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh, no, I don't think he's in the Mel Gibson camp. Some of his \nnon-mainstream views seem to be, if anything, on the other side--he \napparently gives great salvific power to faith in non-Christian \nreligions, and even to faith in religions with explicitly false or \nevil gods, and he believes (or says he believes, of course) that pagan \ngods were real beings but not demons. So I'd say he's on the \nbroad-minded side of orthodox Catholicism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Is it actually a permitted doctrine in Catholicism \nthat faith in non-Christian religions can have salvific power? Doesn't \nthat explicitly contradict John 14:6? Which is *another* of what \nI--brought up in, admittedly, a faith without, to be kind, much of a \nformal intellectual tradition--considered to be one of those bedrock \npassages." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can google \"anonymous Christianity\" and read all about it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2345.67.142.130.30.1216253863.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-17T00:17:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<487E82C1.6050004@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The people who came up with Christianity, way back when, thought the World\nwas like this. Everybody did, more or less, irregardless of religion.\n\nThey did right up through about 1500 or so, in the West. Maybe even a\nlittle later. Then the whole thing got thrown out and the terminology\nreinvented.\n\nThere may have been people in the old days, epicureans and so forth, who\nheld minority views about how the World was made up, but they were just\nthat.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am referring to the hierarchy of the great chain of being, as is David\nDuffy. This is an underlying assumption of the Christian worldview,\nalthough many modern Christians choose to deprecate it.\n\nIn this hierarchy, the World is assumed to be a living being, possessing\nan intelligence and a spirit as are all of the various levels of the\nWorld." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been a lifelong Christian, and this is the first I've heard the\nGreat Chain of Being explicitly said to have a place in Christian\ndoctrine. It certainly is not part of the Apostles's, Nicean, or\nConstantinoplean Creeds, or any other definitive statement of Christian\nbelief I've seen.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487E910A.9020802@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T00:23:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<14682.72.171.0.142.1216232940.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOn Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:46 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Some people maybe take this stuff a little too seriously...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seeing such a spirited defense put up for murder on a planetary scale\ncertainly gets one's hackles up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is it, one supernova a year, somewhere in the Universe? And common or\ngarden variety novas are much more common, I don't have any idea how\ncommon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1 supernova per 50 years in the milky way, billions per year in the \nobservable universe. Nova events are more common, but that because of \nrepeat occurances, the objects that produce them are less common.\n\nSun-like stars are too small for either to happen on their own, and any \nsort of intervention to cause one would be grossly obvious." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see anything to get worked up about, particularly. Everyone dies.\nSure, not everyone is ready to go and most people suffer some and flail\nabout some more, but in the end the result is the same and you might as\nwell be calm and cheerful about it. If a bad thing happens, and then you\nhave negative emotions about it, two bad things have happened.\n\nHave you read the Gita?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds a bit more Bardo Thodol." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487E9355.6040504@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T00:33:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<2345.67.142.130.30.1216253863.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThe people who came up with Christianity, way back when, thought the World\nwas like this. Everybody did, more or less, irregardless of religion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "cite please?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12155.67.142.130.30.1216255394.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-17T00:43:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807161531x6c22c939vd5cf010aa29051bd@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:57 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "!!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Come on, don't just \"!!\" me, explain - I'm genuinely curious." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Arjuna saw his uncles, grandfathers, teachers, maternal uncles, brothers,\nsons, grandsons, and comrades. (1.26)\n\nSeeing fathers-in-law, all those kinsmen, and other dear ones standing in\nthe ranks of the two armies, (1.27)\n\nArjuna was overcome with great compassion and sorrowfully said: O Krishna,\nseeing my kinsmen standing with a desire to fight, (1.28)\n\nMy limbs fail and my mouth becomes dry. My body quivers and my hairs stand\non end. (1.29)\n\nThe bow, Gaandeeva, slips from my hand and my skin intensely burns. My\nhead turns, I am unable to stand steady and, O Krishna, I see bad omens. I\nsee no use of killing my kinsmen in battle. (1.30-31)\n\nI desire neither victory nor pleasure nor kingdom, O Krishna. What is the\nuse of the kingdom, or enjoyment, or even life, O Krishna? (1.32)\n\nBecause all those, for whom we desire kingdom, enjoyments, and pleasures,\nare standing here for the battle, giving up their lives and wealth. (1.33)\n\nTeachers, uncles, sons, grandfathers, maternal uncles, fathers-in-law,\ngrandsons, brothers-in-law, and other relatives. (1.34)\n\nI do not wish to kill them, who are also about to kill, even for the\nsovereignty of the three worlds, let alone for this earthly kingdom, O\nKrishna. (1.35)\n\n...\n\n\nLord Krishna, as if smiling, spoke these words to the despondent Arjuna in\nthe midst of the two armies. (2.10)\n\nThe Supreme Lord said: You grieve for those who are not worthy of grief,\nand yet speak the words of wisdom. The wise grieve neither for the living\nnor for the dead. (2.11)\n\nThere was never a time when I, you, or these kings did not exist; nor\nshall we ever cease to exist in the future.\n\n-- Gita\n\nI don't know where to begin, really. But basically, Krishna explains why\nit's all OK, at least under the right circumstances, He experiences it all\nand doesn't get worked up about it. Arjuna argues with him (good man!) and\nit goes back and forth for a while and finally Krishna shows Arjuna\nhimself in his God form, and Arjuna stops arguing.\n\nIt's not really that long: that's not an excerpt, in the Mahabharata,\nthat's the whole thing.\n\nhttp://eawc.evansville.edu/anthology/gita.htm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You are assuming that they are all random. What if you could cause them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or meteor strikes, directing large rocks at planets inhabited by one's\nenemies is well within human capability, which the other is not just\nyet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Sure, why not. (Though I could've sworn you were referring to an act of\nnature - an intentionally caused supernova a year would be a bit much)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh no, the one supernova a year is the total number of supernovas. I was\nspeculating maybe an occasional one happened less than by pure chance. And\nsupernovas are huge events, clearing out big chunks of galaxies. Plain old\nnovas happen about three and a half times a year in just this galaxy\n(according to http://www.springerlink.com/content/h0661351216h1326/) and\nare sufficient to wipe out a stellar system. It's not inconceivable that\nintelligent beings might learn how to make one happen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I also differentiate between murder and homicide: all murder is\nhomicide, not all homicide is murder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, that's why I (jokingly) mentioned manslaughter (less severe than\nmurder). The severity may vary, but purposefully causing death of\nunwilling souls is uniformly a bad thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There have been, historically, a number of dissenting opinions. I can't\nreally say that I agree with them, though certain of them (like those of\nthe Aztecs) I find sort of esthetically pleasing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Throughout this discussion I've tried to establish that it's still a bad\nthing, even if done by time-traveling aliens from another dimension, and\neven if it's done for a good cause." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been surprised by the resistance to this idea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So why do bad things happen? Both YHVH and Krishna cheated when someone\ngot to argue with them. Tell me.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1356.67.142.130.30.1216255829.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-17T00:50:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<487E9355.6040504@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We're talking about the stuff that's in Aristotle, right?\n\nAristotle was not making stuff up: he was recording what people thought.\n\nFor a specifically Christian reference there's \"Dionysius the Areopagite\"\n(pseudo-Dionysius):\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Dionysius_the_Areopagite\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The people who came up with Christianity, way back when, thought the\nWorld\nwas like this. Everybody did, more or less, irregardless of religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "cite please?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807161755l13d9985dma54092e90acc400e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T00:55:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<12155.67.142.130.30.1216255394.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 8:43 PM, wrote:\n\nSo why do bad things happen? Both YHVH and Krishna cheated when someone\ngot to argue with them. Tell me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Damned if I know. At the outset of this argument I mentioned in passing\nthat the Problem of Evil doesn't have a satisfying solution. It's just that\nit's not the immediate problem at hand when we're talking about the\nHierogrammates, who aren't gods or even angels. It's perfectly reasonable\nthat they'd commit an evil act.\n\nPaul" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487E98C6.5020506@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T00:56:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<12155.67.142.130.30.1216255394.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOh no, the one supernova a year is the total number of supernovas. I was\nspeculating maybe an occasional one happened less than by pure chance. And\nsupernovas are huge events, clearing out big chunks of galaxies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where on earth did you study Astronomy?! Supernovas actually increase \nthe number of stars in a galaxy when their shockwaves cause nearby \nnebulas to clump and collapse into new stars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Plain old\nnovas happen about three and a half times a year in just this galaxy\n(according to http://www.springerlink.com/content/h0661351216h1326/) and\nare sufficient to wipe out a stellar system. It's not inconceivable that\nintelligent beings might learn how to make one happen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since a nova involves a post-red giant stellar remnant, the solar system \nis already destroyed except for the close companion star necessary to \nsupply mass for the nova events. There won't be any naturally habitable \nplanets left, and anyone resettling the system will be able to see what \nthey could be in for." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<483581.88973.qm@web83707.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-07-17T01:37:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<487E855A.5080907@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I won't try to defend the Crusades but you're giving\nthe hymn \"Onward, Christian Soldiers\" a bad rap. \nThe hymn does not promote militarism. The\n\"Christian soldiers\" are not military men who are\nwaging war on heathens. They are Christians who are\nurged to advance Christian ideals LIKE soldiers going\ninto battle. Listen to the words and I think you'll\nagree.\n\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Jeff Wilson wrote:\nAdam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 12:17 PM,\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Seriously: we're supposed to be talking about\nthe writings of someone\nwho is ... famously Catholic, with ... some\nreally nonstandard theology," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I know Wolfe considers himself to be orthodox." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What bits of heresy do you\naccuse him of? I don't see any that's explicitly\nin there...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The outright rejection of pacifism (which I\nbelieve is pretty clear in \nthe interviews) seems to directly repudiate much\nof the Sermon on the \nMount, which I think I am being pretty orthodox in\nbelieving to be among \nthe very centralmost of Christian positions\n(although, yes, of course \nyou can point to the moneychangers, and, yes, then\nyou can point to \nChrist carrying a scourge..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did you miss the various Crusades? Or hymns like\n\"Onward Christian \nSoldiers?\" Militarism's been given the imprimatur\nfor a long time.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T01:46:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<483581.88973.qm@web83707.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What about \"Praise God and Pass the Ammunition?\"\n\n(I know it's not a hymn; I'm just making a joke.)\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 8:37 PM, John Smith wrote:\nI won't try to defend the Crusades but you're giving\nthe hymn \"Onward, Christian Soldiers\" a bad rap.\nThe hymn does not promote militarism. The\n\"Christian soldiers\" are not military men who are\nwaging war on heathens. They are Christians who are\nurged to advance Christian ideals LIKE soldiers going\ninto battle. Listen to the words and I think you'll\nagree.\n\nJack\n\n\n\n\n--- Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 12:17 PM,\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Seriously: we're supposed to be talking about\nthe writings of someone\nwho is ... famously Catholic, with ... some\nreally nonstandard theology," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I know Wolfe considers himself to be orthodox." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What bits of heresy do you\naccuse him of? I don't see any that's explicitly\nin there...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The outright rejection of pacifism (which I\nbelieve is pretty clear in\nthe interviews) seems to directly repudiate much\nof the Sermon on the\nMount, which I think I am being pretty orthodox in\nbelieving to be among\nthe very centralmost of Christian positions\n(although, yes, of course\nyou can point to the moneychangers, and, yes, then\nyou can point to\nChrist carrying a scourge..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Did you miss the various Crusades? Or hymns like\n\"Onward Christian\nSoldiers?\" Militarism's been given the imprimatur\nfor a long time.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12241.67.142.130.31.1216259485.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-17T01:51:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807161755l13d9985dma54092e90acc400e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have a problem with that.\n\nBut then, I don't have a problem with God doing evil either. Everything\nthat occurs being the will of God, and evil things occurring....\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 8:43 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So why do bad things happen? Both YHVH and Krishna cheated when someone\ngot to argue with them. Tell me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Damned if I know. At the outset of this argument I mentioned in passing\nthat the Problem of Evil doesn't have a satisfying solution. It's just\nthat\nit's not the immediate problem at hand when we're talking about the\nHierogrammates, who aren't gods or even angels. It's perfectly reasonable\nthat they'd commit an evil act.\n\nPaul\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10946.67.142.130.31.1216259758.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-17T01:55:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<487E98C6.5020506@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What happens in the volume of space around a supernova when the radiation\nwave goes through it? Would anything living here survive if Sirius went\nsupernova? Perhaps some thousands or millions of years something else will\narise....\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Oh no, the one supernova a year is the total number of supernovas. I was\nspeculating maybe an occasional one happened less than by pure chance.\nAnd\nsupernovas are huge events, clearing out big chunks of galaxies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where on earth did you study Astronomy?! Supernovas actually increase\nthe number of stars in a galaxy when their shockwaves cause nearby\nnebulas to clump and collapse into new stars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Plain old\nnovas happen about three and a half times a year in just this galaxy\n(according to http://www.springerlink.com/content/h0661351216h1326/) and\nare sufficient to wipe out a stellar system. It's not inconceivable that\nintelligent beings might learn how to make one happen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since a nova involves a post-red giant stellar remnant, the solar system\nis already destroyed except for the close companion star necessary to\nsupply mass for the nova events. There won't be any naturally habitable\nplanets left, and anyone resettling the system will be able to see what\nthey could be in for.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<006901c8e7ba$6a52be40$f9cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-17T03:08:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<10946.67.142.130.31.1216259758.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In all this crap about morality and who is fit to look down his nose at\nwhom, why is it that no one has thought to mention two scenes involving the\nholy slaves Barbatus, Famulimus and Ossipago? In the first scene, at\nBaldanders' castle, all three Hierodules knelt to Severian. Barbatus and\nFamulimus did it again in Apu-Punchau's tomb, and Famulimus even kissed the\nfloor before him.\n\nThis was right after Severian complained of being an eidolon and wanted to\nknow why Tzadkiel hadn't just brought him back to life, as Severian had\nbrought Zama back to life.\n\nAs Barbatus said: \"What makes you think Tzadkiel wields\nsuch power? Famulimus and Ossipago and I are nothing\nbefore him, but we're not _his_ slaves; and great though he is,\nhe's not the head of his race and its savior.\" (URTH, L, 360)\n\nEarlier, on the Ship, Famulimus had said: \"_Hierodule_ is 'holy slave.' How\ncould Hierodules be holy, did we not serve the Increate? Our master is he,\nand he only.\" (V, 36)\n\nYet they knelt to Severian. I'm sure this must say something about the moral\npecking order. One doesn't usually make obeisance to one's moral inferior.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3FB07BD7-CF5F-4B12-96D3-B6F21D8B4CE3@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T03:29:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<006901c8e7ba$6a52be40$f9cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 10:08 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nOne doesn't usually make obeisance to one's moral inferior." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the risk of being really snarky, have you ever held a real job?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<686D3B07-BBB2-4917-AEEF-5C8A3F8C0799@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T03:31:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3FB07BD7-CF5F-4B12-96D3-B6F21D8B4CE3@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No kidding. This is essentially how just about every government has \nplayed out in the history of the world.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 10:29 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Jul 16, 2008, at 10:08 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One doesn't usually make obeisance to one's moral inferior." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the risk of being really snarky, have you ever held a real job?\n\nAdam_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4122.72.171.0.140.1216265624.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-17T03:33:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<006901c8e7ba$6a52be40$f9cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's also reminiscent of the bit in the Quran where God creates Adam and\norders the angels to bow to him (all do except Satan and his people).\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In all this crap about morality and who is fit to look down his nose at\nwhom, why is it that no one has thought to mention two scenes involving\nthe\nholy slaves Barbatus, Famulimus and Ossipago? In the first scene, at\nBaldanders' castle, all three Hierodules knelt to Severian. Barbatus and\nFamulimus did it again in Apu-Punchau's tomb, and Famulimus even kissed\nthe\nfloor before him.\n\nThis was right after Severian complained of being an eidolon and wanted to\nknow why Tzadkiel hadn't just brought him back to life, as Severian had\nbrought Zama back to life.\n\nAs Barbatus said: \"What makes you think Tzadkiel wields\nsuch power? Famulimus and Ossipago and I are nothing\nbefore him, but we're not _his_ slaves; and great though he is,\nhe's not the head of his race and its savior.\" (URTH, L, 360)\n\nEarlier, on the Ship, Famulimus had said: \"_Hierodule_ is 'holy slave.'\nHow\ncould Hierodules be holy, did we not serve the Increate? Our master is he,\nand he only.\" (V, 36)\n\nYet they knelt to Severian. I'm sure this must say something about the\nmoral\npecking order. One doesn't usually make obeisance to one's moral inferior.\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487EE1D1.5080302@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T06:08:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1356.67.142.130.30.1216255829.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWe're talking about the stuff that's in Aristotle, right?\n\nAristotle was not making stuff up: he was recording what people thought.\n\nFor a specifically Christian reference there's \"Dionysius the Areopagite\"\n(pseudo-Dionysius):\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Dionysius_the_Areopagite" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see anything about the world having a literal persona distinct \nfrom God, and I don't recall seeing anything like that in Aristotle's \nelementalism, either." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487EE33F.4020802@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T06:14:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<483581.88973.qm@web83707.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Smith wrote:\nI won't try to defend the Crusades but you're giving\nthe hymn \"Onward, Christian Soldiers\" a bad rap. \nThe hymn does not promote militarism. The\n\"Christian soldiers\" are not military men who are\nwaging war on heathens. They are Christians who are\nurged to advance Christian ideals LIKE soldiers going\ninto battle. Listen to the words and I think you'll\nagree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "II Timothy 2:3 (KJV): \"Thou shalt endure hardness, as a good soldier of \nJesus Christ.\"\n\nIt doesn't have to be literal military action, using martial similies \nand metaphors for correct behavior is still an approval of militarism. \nYou don't see hyms that say, \"onward Christian harlots\" or \"onward \nChristian usurers\" do you?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487EE7AB.4020009@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T06:33:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<10946.67.142.130.31.1216259758.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWhat happens in the volume of space around a supernova when the radiation\nwave goes through it? Would anything living here survive if Sirius went\nsupernova? Perhaps some thousands or millions of years something else will\narise...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Kills all life above ground on the Sirius-facing hemisphere and poisons \nthe atmosphere. But this won't happen until you see 40% of the sun's \nmass flow from Sirius A to Sirius B." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-07-17T06:39:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<487EE1D1.5080302@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nI don't see anything about the world having a literal persona distinct from \nGod, and I don't recall seeing anything like that in Aristotle's \nelementalism, either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A more recent SFnal realization is in CS Lewis's _Space Trilogy_. Earth \nis (or has :)) a silent planet.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<487EF583.6040003@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T07:32:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Duffy wrote:\nOn Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see anything about the world having a literal persona distinct \nfrom God, and I don't recall seeing anything like that in Aristotle's \nelementalism, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A more recent SFnal realization is in CS Lewis's _Space Trilogy_. Earth \nis (or has :)) a silent planet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Keep fishing, guys." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11774.67.142.130.36.1216282763.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-17T08:19:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<487EE1D1.5080302@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good for you, I say.\n\nArguments are down the hall.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We're talking about the stuff that's in Aristotle, right?\n\nAristotle was not making stuff up: he was recording what people thought.\n\nFor a specifically Christian reference there's \"Dionysius the\nAreopagite\"\n(pseudo-Dionysius):\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-Dionysius_the_Areopagite" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see anything about the world having a literal persona distinct\nfrom God, and I don't recall seeing anything like that in Aristotle's\nelementalism, either.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1885.67.142.130.36.1216282860.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-17T08:21:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<487EE33F.4020802@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I won't try to defend the Crusades but you're giving\nthe hymn \"Onward, Christian Soldiers\" a bad rap.\nThe hymn does not promote militarism. The\n\"Christian soldiers\" are not military men who are\nwaging war on heathens. They are Christians who are\nurged to advance Christian ideals LIKE soldiers going\ninto battle. Listen to the words and I think you'll\nagree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "II Timothy 2:3 (KJV): \"Thou shalt endure hardness, as a good soldier of\nJesus Christ.\"\n\nIt doesn't have to be literal military action, using martial similies\nand metaphors for correct behavior is still an approval of militarism.\nYou don't see hyms that say, \"onward Christian harlots\" or \"onward\nChristian usurers\" do you?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, a hymn called 'Onward Christian Harlots' has real potential.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807170503n632d6fb0xd6fdd252080d430@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T12:03:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we talking about a literal personality for the Earth, or for the\nuniverse?\n\nLewis actually explicitly notes in The Discarded Image that the Earth was\nnot classically given a guiding intelligence. This is because, in the\nPtolemaic system, the Earth is stationary while the heavens move. Being\nstationary, the Earth obviously needs no intelligence guiding its movement.\nAccording to Lewis, the first person to propose that the Great Chain of\nBeing including the Earth possessing a distinct \"persona\" in the sense that\nSaturn and Jupiter do was Dante (Discarded Image 139, if anyone has it), who\nproposed that the governing intelligence of Earth was Fortune. Lewis\ntweaked that idea to make the governing intelligence of Earth a Satan\nanalogue in the Space Trilogy.\n\nNevertheless, despite the (very debatable) commonality of \"great chain of\nbeing\" theories (and conflating them all into a single system is kind of\nsloppy), the \"people who came up with Christianity\" did not typically\nascribe some sort of \"literal persona\" to the planet Earth. The Great Chain\nmost just posited that there must be a bunch of interesting spiritual beings\n\"higher\" than man and \"lower\" than God.\n\nAs for the universe as a whole, the closest thing the ancients and medievals\nhad to such a concept was the Primum Mobile. It's true that philosophers\ntended to talk about the Primum Mobile as though it had a persona, but Lewis\nis quick to point out that that's just how people spoke back then--to say\n\"the Primum Mobile revolves because it loves God\" is no more literal than to\nsay \"water desires to run downhill,\" which is exactly how medievals (and\nTzadkiel, for that matter) did in fact talk. Lewis actually mocks moderns\nfor taking this literally by pointing out that we use an even more\npersonalizing metaphor--\"Water runs downhill because it must obey the laws\nof physics.\"\n\nSo I'm far from convinced that the ancients or medievals as a rule ascribed\na \"personality\" to the \"World.\" A necessary obedience to what we'd now call\nmetaphysical laws, sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 2:39 AM, David Duffy \nwrote:\nOn Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see anything about the world having a literal persona distinct\nfrom God, and I don't recall seeing anything like that in Aristotle's\nelementalism, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A more recent SFnal realization is in CS Lewis's _Space Trilogy_. Earth is\n(or has :)) a silent planet.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<82289.55254.qm@web83717.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-07-17T12:13:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<487EE33F.4020802@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe I'm trying to split a hair. I agree that the\nhymn approves the bravery and other admirable conduct\nof soldiers. But it asks us to use martial virtues\nin a good cause. I just don't see this as an\nendorsement of \"militarism.\" \n\nPerhaps my disagreement is with the word \"militarism\",\nwhich I take to mean a reliance on aggressive military\nforce. You're right to say most Christians in most\neras have supported just wars.\n\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Jeff Wilson wrote:\nJohn Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I won't try to defend the Crusades but you're\ngiving\nthe hymn \"Onward, Christian Soldiers\" a bad rap. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The hymn does not promote militarism. The\n\"Christian soldiers\" are not military men who are\nwaging war on heathens. They are Christians who\nare\nurged to advance Christian ideals LIKE soldiers\ngoing\ninto battle. Listen to the words and I think\nyou'll\nagree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "II Timothy 2:3 (KJV): \"Thou shalt endure hardness,\nas a good soldier of \nJesus Christ.\"\n\nIt doesn't have to be literal military action, using\nmartial similies \nand metaphors for correct behavior is still an\napproval of militarism. \nYou don't see hyms that say, \"onward Christian\nharlots\" or \"onward \nChristian usurers\" do you?\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1176.72.171.0.149.1216302834.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-17T13:53:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807170503n632d6fb0xd6fdd252080d430@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The concept of 'the planet Earth', is very new. Planets are lights that\nwander around in the sky. Earth is either the ground or the plane of the\necliptic (cf \"Hamlet's Mill\" for this last one). Celestial objects are\nthought of as having intelligences and spirits, which are integrated into\nthe pseudo-Dionysian hierarchy.\n\nWhat are we arguing about? Since the ancients didn't have a concept of\n'the planet Earth' I don't have any problem admitting that they did not\nattribute the characteristics of a celestial body to it.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are we talking about a literal personality for the Earth, or for the\nuniverse?\n\nLewis actually explicitly notes in The Discarded Image that the Earth was\nnot classically given a guiding intelligence. This is because, in the\nPtolemaic system, the Earth is stationary while the heavens move. Being\nstationary, the Earth obviously needs no intelligence guiding its\nmovement.\nAccording to Lewis, the first person to propose that the Great Chain of\nBeing including the Earth possessing a distinct \"persona\" in the sense\nthat\nSaturn and Jupiter do was Dante (Discarded Image 139, if anyone has it),\nwho\nproposed that the governing intelligence of Earth was Fortune. Lewis\ntweaked that idea to make the governing intelligence of Earth a Satan\nanalogue in the Space Trilogy.\n\nNevertheless, despite the (very debatable) commonality of \"great chain of\nbeing\" theories (and conflating them all into a single system is kind of\nsloppy), the \"people who came up with Christianity\" did not typically\nascribe some sort of \"literal persona\" to the planet Earth. The Great\nChain\nmost just posited that there must be a bunch of interesting spiritual\nbeings\n\"higher\" than man and \"lower\" than God.\n\nAs for the universe as a whole, the closest thing the ancients and\nmedievals\nhad to such a concept was the Primum Mobile. It's true that philosophers\ntended to talk about the Primum Mobile as though it had a persona, but\nLewis\nis quick to point out that that's just how people spoke back then--to say\n\"the Primum Mobile revolves because it loves God\" is no more literal than\nto\nsay \"water desires to run downhill,\" which is exactly how medievals (and\nTzadkiel, for that matter) did in fact talk. Lewis actually mocks moderns\nfor taking this literally by pointing out that we use an even more\npersonalizing metaphor--\"Water runs downhill because it must obey the laws\nof physics.\"\n\nSo I'm far from convinced that the ancients or medievals as a rule\nascribed\na \"personality\" to the \"World.\" A necessary obedience to what we'd now\ncall\nmetaphysical laws, sure.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 2:39 AM, David Duffy \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't see anything about the world having a literal persona distinct\nfrom God, and I don't recall seeing anything like that in Aristotle's\nelementalism, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A more recent SFnal realization is in CS Lewis's _Space Trilogy_. Earth\nis\n(or has :)) a silent planet.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807170828q33478ec2u5daf01f8dfc4f7d5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T15:28:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1176.72.171.0.149.1216302834.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we're just discussing the finer points of the role of planetary\nintelligences in Ptolemaic cosmology. It's pretty far afield from the\noriginal point about the nature of the Hierogrammates.\n\nWhile I think it's obvious that the Hierogrammates occupy a position\n\"higher\" than human beings, it's also fairly clear that they are not\nliterally angels, unlike Lewis's eldila or Tolkien's Ainur or even Wolfe's\nown inhabitants of Kleos--they are not spirits, they are not direct\ncreations of God, they are not eternal, etc. As such, I don't think they\nhave the innate moral authority to bring the catacylsm of the New Sun. The\nmere fact that Christianity in most of its forms assumes the existence of\nangelic beings doesn't establish that the Hierogrammates are such beings\nanymore than it establishes that the Overcyns or gods of Latro's world are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/17/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\nThe concept of 'the planet Earth', is very new. Planets are lights that\nwander around in the sky. Earth is either the ground or the plane of the\necliptic (cf \"Hamlet's Mill\" for this last one). Celestial objects are\nthought of as having intelligences and spirits, which are integrated into\nthe pseudo-Dionysian hierarchy.\n\nWhat are we arguing about? Since the ancients didn't have a concept of\n'the planet Earth' I don't have any problem admitting that they did not\nattribute the characteristics of a celestial body to it.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are we talking about a literal personality for the Earth, or for the\nuniverse?\n\nLewis actually explicitly notes in The Discarded Image that the Earth was\nnot classically given a guiding intelligence. This is because, in the\nPtolemaic system, the Earth is stationary while the heavens move. Being\nstationary, the Earth obviously needs no intelligence guiding its\nmovement.\nAccording to Lewis, the first person to propose that the Great Chain of\nBeing including the Earth possessing a distinct \"persona\" in the sense\nthat\nSaturn and Jupiter do was Dante (Discarded Image 139, if anyone has it),\nwho\nproposed that the governing intelligence of Earth was Fortune. Lewis\ntweaked that idea to make the governing intelligence of Earth a Satan\nanalogue in the Space Trilogy.\n\nNevertheless, despite the (very debatable) commonality of \"great chain of\nbeing\" theories (and conflating them all into a single system is kind of\nsloppy), the \"people who came up with Christianity\" did not typically\nascribe some sort of \"literal persona\" to the planet Earth. The Great\nChain\nmost just posited that there must be a bunch of interesting spiritual\nbeings\n\"higher\" than man and \"lower\" than God.\n\nAs for the universe as a whole, the closest thing the ancients and\nmedievals\nhad to such a concept was the Primum Mobile. It's true that philosophers\ntended to talk about the Primum Mobile as though it had a persona, but\nLewis\nis quick to point out that that's just how people spoke back then--to say\n\"the Primum Mobile revolves because it loves God\" is no more literal than\nto\nsay \"water desires to run downhill,\" which is exactly how medievals (and\nTzadkiel, for that matter) did in fact talk. Lewis actually mocks\nmoderns\nfor taking this literally by pointing out that we use an even more\npersonalizing metaphor--\"Water runs downhill because it must obey the\nlaws\nof physics.\"\n\nSo I'm far from convinced that the ancients or medievals as a rule\nascribed\na \"personality\" to the \"World.\" A necessary obedience to what we'd now\ncall\nmetaphysical laws, sure.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 2:39 AM, David Duffy \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I don't see anything about the world having a literal persona distinct\nfrom God, and I don't recall seeing anything like that in Aristotle's\nelementalism, either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A more recent SFnal realization is in CS Lewis's _Space Trilogy_. Earth\nis\n(or has :)) a silent planet.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40807170854m33fd4cb3p4d9c31e7bd64c3e0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T15:54:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807170828q33478ec2u5daf01f8dfc4f7d5@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been holding back on this discussion because of time constraints, but I\nwould like to weigh in. I think that the bringing of the New Sun was a good\nthing, but I can't agree with b sharp's argument. It seems like a victory by\ndefinition: the Hierogrammates are good because they are so smart that we\ncannot judge them. C. S. Lewis once said that a cat cannot judge between a\nvivisectionist and a surgeon trying to save its life, since both cause it\npain. But the cat's lack of ability to judge doesn't make the vivisectionist\ngood.\n\nIt seems like the more we ascribe unlimited knowledge and power to the\nHierogrammates the more difficulties we have. Perhaps the problem can be\nresolved by humanizing them a bit, and allowing them short-term as well as\nlong-term goals. Master Ash said that even time-travellers cannot know the\nfuture for certain. Tzadkiel cannot be sure that Sev will succeed, just that\nit is probable.\n\nIf the Hierogrammates are more like humans, then their actions don't have to\nbe absolutely good, just the lesser of two evils. Humans take actions all\nthe time that we know could cause the death of others: invasion of other\ncountries, economic sanctions, even passing or not passing laws. Almost\nevery action and every inaction can have such consequences. By Paul B's\nstandard of murder none of us have clean hands.\n\nWe could start back with putting the black hole in the Sun, which caused\nTyphon to lose his grip on power. This short-term goal could have been the\npurpose. Suppose Ymar or one of his immediate successors had been able to\nrestore the Sun. Then there would have been very little loss of life.\nInstead, the autarchs chickened out for millenia after Ymar's failure. They\nembraced the do-nothing future, sitting tight until the energy ran out.\n\nRestoring the Sun remained a good goal in itself. All the living systems of\nUrth, Lune, and Verthandi were at stake. Even today, people argue for\n\"saving the Earth\" and propose drastic measures that could well cost lives.\nEons of life and evolution were enabled by rekindling the Sun, especially\nfor marine life (and other life that went extinct could be re-seeded from\nspace or by time travel).\n\nPaul B argued that a mass evacuation of Urth was feasible in the time of\nSeverian the Lame. I see no evidence for that. It was feasible in the time\nof Master Ash, but that was centuries later, after the population was\ndesperate and greatly reduced by freezing and famine. Even so, some could\nnot be found, some refused to go, and for some no place could be found. An\nattempted mass evacuation in Sev's time could produce panic, possibly\ncosting more lives than allowing those with boats and airships to evacuate\nthemselves.\n\nThe Hierogrammates had the additional long-term goal of creating the Hieros.\nEven the Ascians agreed that humans had behaved terribly in the universe in\nthe old days, and that something needed to change the next time out. \"We\nshall not go to the stars again until we go as a divinity,\" the aquastor\nMalrubius said. Admittedly, the Hieros will themselves cause massive\nsuffering in their quest to raise other potentially-intelligent species to\nthe level of companions or higher, but that is arguably superior to the war,\nlooting and pillaging that humanity did before. (By the way, I think the\nGreen Man is quite plausible as a step on the way to the Hieros. He was not\na total pacifist: he stood by while Agia killed three sentries in order to\nsave Sev).\n\nWolfe, as the God of this fictional world, chose to \"bless\" the\nHierogrammate's action in two ways. He granted Severian miraculous powers,\nbeyond what the Hierogrammates and Tzadkiel could do. He also chose to write\nthis story as an epic. This is either a hero's journey or a horrific\ndeconstruction of the whole idea of a hero's journey, which ends with evil\ntriumphant. I think he invites us to see the ending as both tragic in some\nways and hopeful in others." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807170912g7bd79776v5cdf51b8b5c91137@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T16:12:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<82289.55254.qm@web83717.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 8:13 AM, John Smith wrote:\nYou're right to say most Christians in most\neras have supported just wars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except maybe the crusades (I'm sure it didn't seem just to those who'd been\nliving in the Levant previous).\n\nAnd the wars fought in Europe before the 20th century (with Christians on\nboth sides, can both sides in a war be just?)\n\nAnd the colonial wars of the 19th-20th century. (See crusades)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jack" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Paul" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370807170934n603a86b4v9c60aaa9b793599e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T16:34:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807170912g7bd79776v5cdf51b8b5c91137@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It isn't that the wars were necessarily just, only that their leaders told\nthem that they were. That's all most people need." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Paul B wrote:\n\n\nOn Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 8:13 AM, John Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You're right to say most Christians in most\neras have supported just wars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except maybe the crusades (I'm sure it didn't seem just to those who'd been\nliving in the Levant previous).\n\nAnd the wars fought in Europe before the 20th century (with Christians on\nboth sides, can both sides in a war be just?)\n\nAnd the colonial wars of the 19th-20th century. (See crusades)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807170940j63bb165an7d9db9579197d292@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T16:40:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40807170854m33fd4cb3p4d9c31e7bd64c3e0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A few issues with this, and some inaccuracies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nBy Paul B's standard of murder none of us have clean hands." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there a problem with this, even if true? I know some religions that\nconsider everyone to be a sinner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We could start back with putting the black hole in the Sun, which caused\nTyphon to lose his grip on power. This short-term goal could have been the\npurpose. Suppose Ymar or one of his immediate successors had been able to\nrestore the Sun. Then there would have been very little loss of life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even considering the physical implications of your suggestion, you make a\npreposterous claim here without any evidence. Presumably a white hole is\nthe only way to remove the black one. What would it matter how much time\npasses? The physical anomalies produced by the New Sun don't care, unless\nthe black hole got a lot bigger after a few hundred years. Given that it's\njust had the sun to feed on, which it didn't even consume, it's unlikely.\n\nIncidentally, it's curious that the introduction of the black hole didn't\nhave similar effects on Urth as that of the white one.\n\nAs for the suggestion that Hierogrammates went to stellar engineering just\nto depose Typhon, it sounds like swatting a fly with a Buick." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Restoring the Sun remained a good goal in itself. All the living systems of\nUrth, Lune, and Verthandi were at stake." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. The Hierogrammates definitively say that Urth is all that matters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B argued that a mass evacuation of Urth was feasible in the time of\nSeverian the Lame. I see no evidence for that. It was feasible in the time\nof Master Ash, but that was centuries later, after the population was\ndesperate and greatly reduced by freezing and famine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You seem to conveniently forget that Hierogrammates do possess foresight, in\naddition to tech that allows creation of black holes. These two alone\nshould suggest they can do pretty much any \"mundane\" thing (here, building\nlarge ship(s) - [if Typhon could do it, they could too] and sending it to\npoint Urth) at pretty much any time, no?\n\nWhen you can see probable futures, \"feasibility\" takes on a new meaning.\n\nPaul" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2008-07-17T16:49:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807170912g7bd79776v5cdf51b8b5c91137@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Paul B wrote:\nOn Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 8:13 AM, John Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You're right to say most Christians in most\neras have supported just wars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except maybe the crusades (I'm sure it didn't seem just to those who'd been\nliving in the Levant previous)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who didn't it seem just to? The Muslims, whom had slightly earlier\nconquered the place during the Fatah?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Enamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807170957l74696e0aw201e96dd8d56d32b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T16:57:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807170940j63bb165an7d9db9579197d292@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not convinced that the Hierogrammates put the black hole in the sun in\nthe first place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/17/08, Paul B wrote:\n\nA few issues with this, and some inaccuracies.\n\nOn Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Dave Tallman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By Paul B's standard of murder none of us have clean hands." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there a problem with this, even if true? I know some religions that\nconsider everyone to be a sinner." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We could start back with putting the black hole in the Sun, which caused\nTyphon to lose his grip on power. This short-term goal could have been the\npurpose. Suppose Ymar or one of his immediate successors had been able to\nrestore the Sun. Then there would have been very little loss of life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even considering the physical implications of your suggestion, you make a\npreposterous claim here without any evidence. Presumably a white hole is\nthe only way to remove the black one. What would it matter how much time\npasses? The physical anomalies produced by the New Sun don't care, unless\nthe black hole got a lot bigger after a few hundred years. Given that it's\njust had the sun to feed on, which it didn't even consume, it's unlikely.\n\nIncidentally, it's curious that the introduction of the black hole didn't\nhave similar effects on Urth as that of the white one.\n\nAs for the suggestion that Hierogrammates went to stellar engineering just\nto depose Typhon, it sounds like swatting a fly with a Buick." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Restoring the Sun remained a good goal in itself. All the living systems\nof Urth, Lune, and Verthandi were at stake." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. The Hierogrammates definitively say that Urth is all that matters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Paul B argued that a mass evacuation of Urth was feasible in the time of\nSeverian the Lame. I see no evidence for that. It was feasible in the time\nof Master Ash, but that was centuries later, after the population was\ndesperate and greatly reduced by freezing and famine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You seem to conveniently forget that Hierogrammates do possess foresight,\nin addition to tech that allows creation of black holes. These two alone\nshould suggest they can do pretty much any \"mundane\" thing (here, building\nlarge ship(s) - [if Typhon could do it, they could too] and sending it to\npoint Urth) at pretty much any time, no?\n\nWhen you can see probable futures, \"feasibility\" takes on a new meaning.\n\nPaul\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40807171102l4513191bwa43b35f90eec5905@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T18:02:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807170957l74696e0aw201e96dd8d56d32b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Paul B wrote:\n\nEven considering the physical implications of your suggestion, you make a\npreposterous claim here without any evidence. Presumably a white hole is\nthe only way to remove the black one. What would it matter how much time\npasses? The physical anomalies produced by the New Sun don't care, unless\nthe black hole got a lot bigger after a few hundred years. Given that it's\njust had the sun to feed on, which it didn't even consume, it's unlikely.\n\nIncidentally, it's curious that the introduction of the black hole didn't\nhave similar effects on Urth as that of the white one.\n\nAs for the suggestion that Hierogrammates went to stellar engineering just\nto depose Typhon, it sounds like swatting a fly with a Buick.\n\nThere are two possible mechanisms for the white hole to disrupt earth:\nthermal and gravitational. I believe the gravitational effects were\npractically nothing: Baldanders only expected them to ring bells. He\npredicted the Urth would have problems due to rising sea levels (ice\nplus energy gives water) and to the heat causing shifts in the earth's\ncrust. The latter is hard to understand, but I suppose some unstable\nfaults could be triggered by changes in heat.\n\nIf the gravitational effects were really severe for either the white\nor the black hole, then the Earth's orbit would be perturbed. We have\nno hint that this was the case, and if it were it would cause even\nmore severe problems for Ushas.\n\nNear Typhon's time, the Sun hadn't lost that much heat, so the sea\nlevel hadn't dropped much due to increased ice at the poles. People\nwould not have settled in the new low-lying areas. (It's interesteing\nthat the Citadel was usable in Typhon's time. Was the wall perhaps a\nsea-wall, and the river changed course to flow through later?)\n\nThe stellar engineering to depose Typhon was huge in its technological\npower but subtle in its immediate effects. It might be thought of as\nan economic sanction. Coming in with guns blazing would wipe out more\ninnocents in the short term.\n\nIs there a problem with this, even if true? I know some religions that\nconsider everyone to be a sinner.\n\nIt allows us to consider the Hierogrammates as imperfect but doing the\nbest they could, like the rest of us, instead of absolutely good or\nabsolutely evil, as we have tended to go in this discussion.\n\nYou seem to conveniently forget that Hierogrammates do possess foresight, in\naddition to tech that allows creation of black holes. These two alone\nshould suggest they can do pretty much any \"mundane\" thing (here, building\nlarge ship(s) - [if Typhon could do it, they could too] and sending it to\npoint Urth) at pretty much any time, no?\n\nI'll allow that they could get together a lot of ships, especially if\nthey only needed to get people off-planet temporarily and then dropped\nthem back when Ushas had settled down. But there's still the issue of\npanic, and of people's willingness to go on the say-so of cacogens. I\ndon't think it would have been as easy as you think." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T20:08:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40807171102l4513191bwa43b35f90eec5905@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A nice, thoughtful post Dave Tallman, I'll debate a couple points. You say:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't agree with b sharp's argument. It seems like a victory by definition: the \nHierogrammates are good because they are so smart that we cannot judge them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is not quite right. I would say, (as always, trying to advocate what I think are \nWolfe's intentions not my own philosophy) that because the Hierogrammates are so \nsmart, we cannot judge their ACTIONS. \n\nTrying to use what I think is Christian theologic principles, one does not have to be \na great intellect to follow God. All you need are two things: 1. a basic ability all sane,\nadult humans have: the intuition to know God (and His goodness) from Satan (and his\nevil). Once you have that, all you need is simply...2. faith. A good Christian faithfully\nfollows and believes the word of God without the need for deep philosophical ponderings\non whether God is acting good or bad at a particular moment. He is always acting good.\n\nLikewise with angels. If the debate is whether Hierogrammates are intended by Wolfe to\nbe like angels or devils that's a different issue. I will suggest that those readers who find\nthe Hierogrammates to be evil would also find the philosophy of Christians (and Gene \nWolfe) to be steeped in evil.\n\nBut, as most seem to do here, accept that the Hierogrammates are intended to be good \nthen our judgement must cease (I think Gene Wolfe would say). We are supposed to have\nfaith that such beings, so much closer to God than we, have actions which will always be for\nthe good. Perhaps they are capable of making mistakes but we do not have the ability to \ndetect them. No more than a cat has the ability to recognize when a veterinary surgeon has\nmade a medical error.\n\nThe cat analogy is funny actually. I can imagine many people who would consider the \nvivisectionist the good person for trying to save human lives with medical research while the \ncat surgeon is mildly evil for wasting medical time, skill and facilities on an animal when many\nhumans must do without.\n\nBut, anyway, as your post recognizes, the only way we can attempt to understand and judge \nHierogrammates is to humanize them. But they are not human. It would be like cats trying to \nfelinicize two doctors in judging their morality. \n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487FC74F.2050407@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T22:27:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807170940j63bb165an7d9db9579197d292@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nYou seem to conveniently forget that Hierogrammates do possess \nforesight, in addition to tech that allows creation of black holes. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where is it written that they make black holes?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<487FCB8B.6070804@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T22:45:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40807171102l4513191bwa43b35f90eec5905@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nThere are two possible mechanisms for the white hole to disrupt\nearth: thermal and gravitational. I believe the gravitational effects\nwere practically nothing: Baldanders only expected them to ring\nbells. He predicted the Urth would have problems due to rising sea\nlevels (ice plus energy gives water) and to the heat causing shifts\nin the earth's crust. The latter is hard to understand, but I suppose\nsome unstable faults could be triggered by changes in heat.\n\n\nIf the gravitational effects were really severe for either the white\nor the black hole, then the Earth's orbit would be perturbed. We have\nno hint that this was the case, and if it were it would cause even\nmore severe problems for Ushas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Urth's orbit is already perturbed by the process of moving of Lune \ncloser to it. The White Fountain could be of similar mass to the moon, \nwhich produces the majority of tides on the earth, and approach much \nmore closely to create much more violent tides, but still not alter the \noverall orbit of the earth as much, because it is only about 1/80 of the \n earth's mass, like the moon is.\n\n\nWhile direct gravitational force drops off as the inverse square of \ndistance and irrespective of size, the derived tidal forces drop off \nwith the inverse cube of distance, making distance much more important, \nbut increase with in proportion to the size of the object, making bells \ntinkle, mountains buckle, and planets sunder. You can see for your self \nhere\n\n\thttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_force\n\nwhere the final equation plainly has a total of 3 powers of R (distance \nradius) in the denominator, and delta r (the radius of the far object) \nin the numerator." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807171655n4c4fd78by42d9f99365f31b65@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T23:55:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<487FC74F.2050407@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My wild theory as to the origin of the black hole in the sun is the panther\nfrom *Soldier of Sidon*. Of course, it's far from established that the\nLatro books take place in the same universe as the Urth books, but this is\ntantalizing:\n\n\"We call him Angra Manyu. He has but one name among us, but many others\namong other peoples. *He is the thing that eats the stars.*\" (Sidon 155,\nemphasis mine.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/17/08, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nPaul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You seem to conveniently forget that Hierogrammates do possess foresight,\nin addition to tech that allows creation of black holes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where is it written that they make black holes?\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9566.67.142.130.20.1216341344.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-18T00:35:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807171655n4c4fd78by42d9f99365f31b65@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Angra Manyu, or Ahriman, is the Zoroastrian (the Persian) Devil.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My wild theory as to the origin of the black hole in the sun is the\npanther\nfrom *Soldier of Sidon*. Of course, it's far from established that the\nLatro books take place in the same universe as the Urth books, but this is\ntantalizing:\n\n\"We call him Angra Manyu. He has but one name among us, but many others\namong other peoples. *He is the thing that eats the stars.*\" (Sidon 155,\nemphasis mine.)\n\n\nOn 7/17/08, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You seem to conveniently forget that Hierogrammates do possess\nforesight,\nin addition to tech that allows creation of black holes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where is it written that they make black holes?\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807171951n4e86e6fan3796bd242c39ae8f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T02:51:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<9566.67.142.130.20.1216341344.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm aware of that, though the identity of the panther is problematic.\nWolfe simply calls him the \"All-Beast\" in the chapter title. Qanju,\nthe speaker in the passage I quoted may be somewhat confused. He\nidentifies the panther with Angra Manyu, but immediately thereafter,\nThotmaktef identifies Angra Manyu with Set.\n\nLater on, Sahuset, the magician, suggests that the panther is not Set,\nbut his servant. The panther seems to confirm this--he calls himself a\ngod on p. 152 but refers to a \"master\" on p. 153. Later bits on Set\nseem to make it clear that he is not the Devil." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From this I take it that the panther is not literally Satan but is\nsome kind of evil principle temporarily serving Set--but the kind of\nevil principle that eats stars. When Wolfe tells us about an evil\nspirit explicitly associated with blackness that eats stars, it's on\npurpose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/17/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nAngra Manyu, or Ahriman, is the Zoroastrian (the Persian) Devil.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My wild theory as to the origin of the black hole in the sun is the\npanther\nfrom *Soldier of Sidon*. Of course, it's far from established that the\nLatro books take place in the same universe as the Urth books, but this is\ntantalizing:\n\n\"We call him Angra Manyu. He has but one name among us, but many others\namong other peoples. *He is the thing that eats the stars.*\" (Sidon 155,\nemphasis mine.)\n\n\nOn 7/17/08, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You seem to conveniently forget that Hierogrammates do possess\nforesight,\nin addition to tech that allows creation of black holes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Where is it written that they make black holes?\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807180831t42c381a1q38a0a33ce8dce58a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T15:31:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who didn't it seem just to? The Muslims, whom had slightly earlier\nconquered the place during the Fatah?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "During the what?! The only \"Fatah\" I know is a Palestinian faction, my good\nanachronistic, sir. Seriously now.\n\nPaul" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7424.67.142.130.36.1216395417.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-18T15:36:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807180831t42c381a1q38a0a33ce8dce58a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Fatah was the extremely rapid spread of Islam out of Arabia and\nthroughout the middle east in the generation or two following Muhammed.\nThe Muslim conquest, more or less.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who didn't it seem just to? The Muslims, whom had slightly earlier\nconquered the place during the Fatah?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "During the what?! The only \"Fatah\" I know is a Palestinian faction, my\ngood\nanachronistic, sir. Seriously now.\n\nPaul\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4880BB92.3000807@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T15:49:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807180831t42c381a1q38a0a33ce8dce58a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\n\n\n\n Who didn't it seem just to? The Muslims, whom had slightly earlier\n conquered the place during the Fatah?\n\n\nDuring the what?! The only \"Fatah\" I know is a Palestinian faction, my \ngood anachronistic, sir. Seriously now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The faction is named after the earlier period, partly because it has \nconnotations of the \"good old days\".\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807180902w78c93161mbc2906c2f3099a8b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T16:02:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807170957l74696e0aw201e96dd8d56d32b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:57 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:\nI'm not convinced that the Hierogrammates put the black hole in the sun in\nthe first place." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's true enough, they don't come out and say it. Nevertheless, the case is\nfairly strong for it.\n\nFirstly, the Hierogrammates are the only race of powerful aliens who may be\nexpected to be able to do something like this. Typhon as a candidate is\nunlikely not only due to his lack of other high tech like FTL, but also due\nto a lack of obvious motive. The possible providers of the black hole are\nthus either nature (or Increate, which is much more likely of those two), or\nthe Hierogrammates.\n\nThe Urthlings believe they are being punished by the black hole, while the\nHierogrammates admit the white hole's meaningful purpose is for Urth alone\n(not Mars or Venus). These, especially the latter, would be unlikely if it\noccurred by accident.\n\nA possible alternative might be that the Increate created the hole as a\nmiracle and then had the Hierogrammates undo it later, which only works if\nyou buy into the theory that they're his direct helpers. At that point\nthough, it doesn't matter much who does what, does it?\n\nPaul" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807180910y3b22d989r2827e0313b9cce9d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T16:10:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40807171102l4513191bwa43b35f90eec5905@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nBaldanders only expected them to ring bells." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry, this is dead wrong. The actual phrase was \"[the bells] toll\nthe deaths of continents\". Baldanders knew perfectly well what would\nhappen, and he explains that \"waves of gravity\" are the cause." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there a problem with this, even if true? I know some religions that\nconsider everyone to be a sinner.\n\nIt allows us to consider the Hierogrammates as imperfect but doing the best they could, like the rest of us, instead of absolutely good or absolutely evil, as we have tended to go in this discussion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've actually been advocating for putting them on an equal moral footing\nwith humans, not demonizing them outright. That comes later! Killing the\nvast majority of a planet's population of your moral equals reflects badly\non you. As I've insisted, a responsible moral framework (deontology)\ndoesn't much care what the outcome of your actions is.\n\nPaul" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807180930y18e8a0ej3db993d133dd66f0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T16:30:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<4880BB92.3000807@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm. Well, that phrase \"The word Fatah is prominently used for the Islamic\nexpansion in the first centuries of Islamic history, and so has strongly\npositive connotations for Muslims\" certainly appears often enough on blogs\nand Wikipedia as Google finds. No \"established\" sources corroborate it\nthough, and it's worrying that it's always the same exact phrase.\n\nI'd never heard of it before, so I'm still skeptical, but I now know what\nwas meant.\n\nIn that case, I amend my reply about the justice of the crusades to \"It is\nnot a sensible moral response to say that injustice following other\ninjustice is somehow more just\". Yes, the Muslims were certainly invaders,\nbut does it mean that another, wholly unrelated conqueror is somehow more\njustified in conquering them in turn?\nThis is different from a punishment for past moral wrongs, that wasn't the\npurpose here.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nPaul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Who didn't it seem just to? The Muslims, whom had slightly earlier\n conquered the place during the Fatah?\n\n\nDuring the what?! The only \"Fatah\" I know is a Palestinian faction, my\ngood anachronistic, sir. Seriously now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The faction is named after the earlier period, partly because it has\nconnotations of the \"good old days\".\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40807181004s69a896b3x7b2631a3f8388cd1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T17:04:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807180910y3b22d989r2827e0313b9cce9d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Paul B wrote:\n\nI'm sorry, this is dead wrong. The actual phrase was \"[the bells] toll\nthe deaths of continents\". Baldanders knew perfectly well what would\nhappen, and he explains that \"waves of gravity\" are the cause.\n\nWe had different interpretations of the same text, it seems. Baldanders also\nsaid \"... a white fountain has been drawn across the void for millennia. It\nspins as it flies, and in its motion it emits waves of gravitation.... These\nwaves are too slight to render us giddy. Yet Ocean feels them and breeds new\ntides and fresh currents. ... Bells feel them the same way. Like Ocean,\ntheir mass is delicately poised. ... The force that made your bells sound\nhas warmed the cold heart of Urth once more. Now they toll the death of\ncontinents.\"\n\nI read that the gravitational forces were weak, and so mistakenly concluded\nthat the primary effects on Urth were caused by heating. I see now that Jeff\nWilson is correct and that tidal forces caused by gravitation will cause\ndramatic changes in sea level and also distort the earth's crust, bringing\nvolcanos and earthquakes.\n\nI still don't understand the bit about the fountain spinning and why this\nwould cause it to emit \"waves of gravitation.\" Is the white fountain\nsupposed to be something like a quasar?\n\nI've actually been advocating for putting them on an equal moral footing\nwith humans, not demonizing them outright. That comes later! Killing the\nvast majority of a planet's population of your moral equals reflects badly\non you. As I've insisted, a responsible moral framework (deontology)\ndoesn't much care what the outcome of your actions is.\n\nEven deontologists don't apply that standard absolutely. I've read that Kant\nargued it is always wrong to lie, even to a murderer asking for the location\nof his victim, but most say that the consequences of telling the truth\nrequire a lie in this case. The alternative to the New Sun was the Ragnarok\nfuture, in which the whole solar system dies and a pitiful remnant of\nhumanity is evacuated. Is that the lesser of two evils?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2008-07-18T17:52:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807180930y18e8a0ej3db993d133dd66f0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Paul B wrote:\nIn that case, I amend my reply about the justice of the crusades to \"It is\nnot a sensible moral response to say that injustice following other\ninjustice is somehow more just\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This puts self-defense in a difficult position." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, the Muslims were certainly invaders, but does it mean that another,\nwholly unrelated conqueror is somehow more justified in conquering them in\nturn?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. In short, see World War 2. In a little more depth, the Crusades were\njust another in a long line of wars between countries. There is nothing\nespecially heinous about them that sets them apart from many other wars.\nThe idea that the big bad Christians sucker-punched the peace-loving natives\nis not based in reality.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Enamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807181055x2d13464ci69490f2ea7bed3d7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T17:55:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40807181004s69a896b3x7b2631a3f8388cd1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 1:04 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nEven deontologists don't apply that standard absolutely. I've read that\nKant argued it is always wrong to lie, even to a murderer asking for the\nlocation of his victim, but most say that the consequences of telling the\ntruth require a lie in this case. The alternative to the New Sun was the\nRagnarok future, in which the whole solar system dies and a pitiful remnant\nof humanity is evacuated. Is that the lesser of two evils?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " That's not a relevant question. The heart of the matter is that an evil\ncourse of action was chosen, lesser or not. Thus, it's impossible to\nconsider the Hierogrammates to be untainted.\n\nAs far as other possible courses of action, speculation about evacuation not\nbeing useful due to panic is weak at best. In more mundane evacuations panic\nwas seen as an acceptable alternative to mass death." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3704.72.171.0.143.1216404093.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-18T18:01:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thomas Bitterman writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In that case, I amend my reply about the justice of the crusades to \"It\nis not a sensible moral response to say that injustice following other\ninjustice is somehow more just\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This puts self-defense in a difficult position." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Self defense is an immediate response to aggression. It can include a\npre-emptive attack. However, if someone attacks you and does whatever it\nis he is going to do and then some centuries pass and you attack him, it\nmay be revenge and it may be justified but self-defense it is not.\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807181105rfd8870bt2209c0db0a6c898f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T18:05:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Thomas Bitterman wrote:\nOn Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In that case, I amend my reply about the justice of the crusades to \"It is\nnot a sensible moral response to say that injustice following other\ninjustice is somehow more just\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This puts self-defense in a difficult position." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course not, you're being silly. Self-defense is just. The crusades had\nnothing to do with self-defense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, the Muslims were certainly invaders, but does it mean that another,\nwholly unrelated conqueror is somehow more justified in conquering them in\nturn?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. In short, see World War 2." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You persist in silliness. The factions that are considered \"just\" in that\nwar were not after conquest.\n\nIn a little more depth, the Crusades were just another in a long line of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wars between countries. There is nothing especially heinous about them that\nsets them apart from many other wars. The idea that the big bad Christians\nsucker-punched the peace-loving natives is not based in reality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now you're making things up and pretending I said them, for which I applaud\nyour imagination. What I did say was that conquest is unjust." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807181109q1e7a47adw2b6c7833a2674258@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T18:09:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807181105rfd8870bt2209c0db0a6c898f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Paul B wrote:\n\nOf course not, you're being silly. Self-defense is just. The crusades had\nnothing to do with self-defense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Incidentally, you might have better luck talking about the Reconquista, in\nwhich the Spanish were indeed fighting for their captured land. Though it\nhappens alongside the crusades, it's seldom referred to by that term, and I\ncertainly didn't intend it above.\n(It seems I'll have to be careful about precisely what I do not say)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370807181119p56047ab8r928abaf8f996c2a7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T18:19:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807181055x2d13464ci69490f2ea7bed3d7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Paul B wrote:\n That's not a relevant question. The heart of the matter is that an evil\ncourse of action was chosen, lesser or not. Thus, it's impossible to\nconsider the Hierogrammates to be untainted." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So you apply Rorschach's standard?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant\nand, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and\na bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807181206w2bc436f5y839363662a78c2bb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T19:06:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370807181119p56047ab8r928abaf8f996c2a7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the only two Rorschachs I know are the psychologist and the Watchman.\n(Trailer recently came out - topical, hey?) If we're talking about the\nlatter, as far as morality goes, sure I do - he's a posterboy deontologist.\nI just don't couple that with the expectation that everyone be moral in\neverything they do, and with the demand that all wrongs be brutally\npunished.\n\nFor example, if futuristic humans kill a bunch of aliens in order to uplift\nthe survivors, I wouldn't be surprised, even though I'd think their action\nimmoral and wrong. They'd have to have a pretty solid track record of doing\nshady things before I'd call them evil, even. I just wouldn't stand for\ntheir calling themselves angels, either.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:\nOn Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " That's not a relevant question. The heart of the matter is that an evil\ncourse of action was chosen, lesser or not. Thus, it's impossible to\nconsider the Hierogrammates to be untainted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So you apply Rorschach's standard?\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2008-07-18T19:16:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807181105rfd8870bt2209c0db0a6c898f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Paul B wrote:\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Thomas Bitterman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:30 PM, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In that case, I amend my reply about the justice of the crusades to \"It\nis not a sensible moral response to say that injustice following other\ninjustice is somehow more just\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This puts self-defense in a difficult position." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course not, you're being silly. Self-defense is just. The crusades had\nnothing to do with self-defense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never said that self-defense was unjust (or just), simply that your maxim\nimplies that self-defense is unjust." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, the Muslims were certainly invaders, but does it mean that another,\nwholly unrelated conqueror is somehow more justified in conquering them in\nturn?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes. In short, see World War 2." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You persist in silliness. The factions that are considered \"just\" in that\nwar were not after conquest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The analogy I was after was this:\n- country A conquers country B\n- unrelated country C conquers country B, thus wresting it from country A\n\nIn WW2 we could have A=Germany, B=France, C=United States, whereas in the\nCrusades we could have A=Muslims, B=Holy Land, C=Christians. The big\ndifference being that the U.S. gave France back to the French, while the\nChristians looked to set up their own kingdoms. Of course, at that point\nthere were not really all that many \"natives\" to hand over the Holy Land to,\nso the parallel becomes inexact.\n\nIn a little more depth, the Crusades were just another in a long line of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wars between countries. There is nothing especially heinous about them that\nsets them apart from many other wars. The idea that the big bad Christians\nsucker-punched the peace-loving natives is not based in reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now you're making things up and pretending I said them, for which I applaud\nyour imagination. What I did say was that conquest is unjust." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My imagination rocks!\n\nWhat you said, originally, was, \"Except maybe the crusades (I'm sure it\ndidn't seem just to those who'd been living in the Levant previous). \" To\nwhich my (summarized) reply was, \"Conquerors have no reason to feel they are\nbeing treated unjustly when they are in turn conquered\".\n\nTo come back to Wolfe, perhaps the Hieros have a right to drown Urth. The\nanalogy is to a causus belli - what humanity did to them in the past was so\nhorrible that they are justified in their present actions. Or,\nalternatively, that at some point humanity entered into an agreement with\nthem, knowing the possible consequences, and we are still bound by that\nagreement.\n\nEnamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807181238y717bec8ref3bf7422a4124a1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T19:38:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Thomas Bitterman wrote:\n\nI never said that self-defense was unjust (or just), simply that your maxim\nimplies that self-defense is unjust." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What on earth are you talking about? I said \"It is not a sensible moral\nresponse to say that injustice following other injustice is somehow more\njust\", along with \"Conquest is unjust\".\nFollowing simple logic, we can get \"conquest following other conquests is\nnot somehow more just\". Self-defense isn't an attack, and reconquest (as I\npointed out) isn't a conquest.\nYour logical proof for the above assertion is not only absent, but hard to\nimagine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The analogy I was after was this:\n- country A conquers country B\n- unrelated country C conquers country B, thus wresting it from country A\n\nIn WW2 we could have A=Germany, B=France, C=United States, whereas in the\nCrusades we could have A=Muslims, B=Holy Land, C=Christians. The big\ndifference being that the U.S. gave France back to the French, while the\nChristians looked to set up their own kingdoms. Of course, at that point\nthere were not really all that many \"natives\" to hand over the Holy Land to,\nso the parallel becomes inexact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Conquest=unjust. The western allies gave Europe back to the\nEuropeans (except the parts needing \"re-education\"), and were therefore\njust. The Christians made their own kingdoms on captured land." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My imagination rocks!\n\nWhat you said, originally, was, \"Except maybe the crusades (I'm sure it\ndidn't seem just to those who'd been living in the Levant previous). \" To\nwhich my (summarized) reply was, \"Conquerors have no reason to feel they are\nbeing treated unjustly when they are in turn conquered\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your imagination is poor, as is your apparent grasp of moral reasoning.\nEven the above, questionable as it is, doesn't suggest what you said about\n\"big bad Christians\" - an attempt to pass off the criticism as a stereotype.\n\nIf conquest is wrong uniformly, the morality of the conquered doesn't\nmatter. If, on the other hand, conquest (not just an attack, but seizure!)\ncan be justified by anyone depending solely on the perceived (because where\nare you going to get the objective?) morality of the target, then you can't\nhave a rights-based society. Or a decent one, for that matter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To come back to Wolfe, perhaps the Hieros have a right to drown Urth. The\nanalogy is to a causus belli - what humanity did to them in the past was so\nhorrible that they are justified in their present actions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An eye for an eye! That's advanced moral reasoning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or, alternatively, that at some point humanity entered into an agreement\nwith them, knowing the possible consequences, and we are still bound by that\nagreement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pure speculation. You'd think that Apheta might have mentioned that instead\nof the rationale she _did_ give." } ] }, { "message_id": "<002d01c8e90e$17965040$26cc4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-18T19:40:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807180902w78c93161mbc2906c2f3099a8b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B. quoted and wrote:\nOn Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:57 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not convinced that the Hierogrammates put the black hole in the sun\nin\nthe first place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's true enough, they don't come out and say it. Nevertheless, the case\nis\nfairly strong for it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apheta to the Ship's crew at Yesod:\n\"You know that we have condemned the peoples of Urth, and why.\" (URTH, XVI,\n112)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807181243i1f850c6bu61db1e2ec722559d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T19:43:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<002d01c8e90e$17965040$26cc4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hot damn! Thank you, I had to give UotNS back to the library almost a year\nago.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nPaul B. quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:57 PM, John Watkins ", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T19:47:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807181243i1f850c6bu61db1e2ec722559d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The discussion would become quite interesting if Paul B was a Christian. Are you Paul?\n\nI really have no quarrel with a person who accepts no entity as a moral superior and who\nholds God and angels to the highest standards of his own morality. In the real world.\n\nBut this is fiction. Do Wolfe's intentions matter at all? Paul, if you are arguing that the\nHierogrammates are of questionable morality by your standards I think your point is made,\nvery, very clearly.\n\nIf you are arguing that the Hierogrammates are of sub-angelic status by Wolfe's standards\nI think you need to use a lot more text quotes to support that.\n\nBut either way, answering that simple question would clarify this entire discussion:\n\nAre you judging the Hierogrammates by your moral standards or Wolfe's?\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<43960c850807181251u227c28cjb4fd2c502efe4810@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Russell Wodell", "address": "wrustle at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T19:51:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think this debate is specifically about Christian and/or Catholic\ndogma. I do think that Gene Wolfe is a devoute Catholic, and that by\ninfusing his work with careful moral ambiguity, thus triggering this debate,\nhe believes that he is encouraging his readers to do God's work.\n\n2008/7/18 b sharp :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The discussion would become quite interesting if Paul B was a Christian.\nAre you Paul?\n\nI really have no quarrel with a person who accepts no entity as a moral\nsuperior and who\nholds God and angels to the highest standards of his own morality. In the\nreal world.\n\nBut this is fiction. Do Wolfe's intentions matter at all? Paul, if you\nare arguing that the\nHierogrammates are of questionable morality by your standards I think your\npoint is made,\nvery, very clearly.\n\nIf you are arguing that the Hierogrammates are of sub-angelic status by\nWolfe's standards\nI think you need to use a lot more text quotes to support that.\n\nBut either way, answering that simple question would clarify this entire\ndiscussion:\n\nAre you judging the Hierogrammates by your moral standards or Wolfe's?\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nUse video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807181318l7a77f6e8sc7aaf6f132bae459@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T20:18:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm curious why you think it'd be more interesting - is it because then I'd\nhave to solve the Problem of Evil? I already said I didn't have a solution\nfor it.\n\nAs for a hypothetical Wolfe-view of the Hierogrammates, I suspect his moral\nworldview is certainly Christian-influenced. Christianity is a very\ndeontological religion, I think, more so than say Judaism (the latter\npermits exceptions to things that are uniformly forbidden in Christianity).\nGod (somehow - Wolfe solved this one in private) gets an exception from the\nmoral duties the rest of us have, and the Christian angels - whom I've never\nheard to act in self-interest - can be privy to whatever exception God is\ngranted as his tools. Everyone else has to play by the rules, unless God\npersonally grants them an exemption (Abraham).\n\nHowever, the Hierogrammates are quite different from Christian angels, if\nyou'd like I'll restate the textual references I suggested earlier, and\nwhich were strengthened by Roy, me being without UotNS.\n\n1.) Hierogrammates are human creations. (Apheta, UotNS)\n2.) They are acting in avowed self-interest, so that the future Hieros will\nrecreate them. (Apheta again)\n3.) They are mortal. (Tzadkiel's son dies)\n4.) Their foresight is imperfect - they do not have certainty of the outcome\nof their actions. (Tzadkiel at the trial)\n\nThis simply doesn't add up to an angelic nature. They might pass for\nBiblical prophets (except for the human creation and self-interest parts),\nbut those were never under any moral exemption.\nIf God came down and literally told them they must drown Urth as such was\nhis will, Apheta or Tzadkiel probably would have mentioned that as a much\nmore compelling and palatable reason than what they gave (worked for Isaac,\nsorta). As mortal free agents, however, they have to obey all the\ndeontological principles the framework of Wolfe's religion imposes on them.\n\nThus, even in this perspective, they aren't blameless.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 3:47 PM, b sharp wrote:\n\nThe discussion would become quite interesting if Paul B was a Christian.\nAre you Paul?\n\nI really have no quarrel with a person who accepts no entity as a moral\nsuperior and who\nholds God and angels to the highest standards of his own morality. In the\nreal world.\n\nBut this is fiction. Do Wolfe's intentions matter at all? Paul, if you\nare arguing that the\nHierogrammates are of questionable morality by your standards I think your\npoint is made,\nvery, very clearly.\n\nIf you are arguing that the Hierogrammates are of sub-angelic status by\nWolfe's standards\nI think you need to use a lot more text quotes to support that.\n\nBut either way, answering that simple question would clarify this entire\ndiscussion:\n\nAre you judging the Hierogrammates by your moral standards or Wolfe's?\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nUse video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807181318g7e141aacs7348ac391e8cae1e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T20:18:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know about Paul, but I'd be more interested if we focus on the\nquestion of whether the Hierogrammates are intended to be (unfallen) angels\nby Gene Wolfe. Without my books at hand, the argument for this appears to\nbe:\n\n1) \"Holy\" is part of their name.\n\n2) Tzadkiel has a winged form that Severian identifies as an angel.\n\n3) Severian thinks Hierogrammates serve the Increate.\n\n4) Wolfe referred to Tzadkiel as an \"angel\" in an interview.\n\nThe argument against the Hierogrammates being angels, as I understand it, is\n\n1) Catholic theology posits that angels are perfectly moral, but the\nHierogrammates frequently engage in morally dubious if not outright evil\nbehavior.\n\n2) Hierogrammates, unlike angels, are not direct creations of God.\n\n3) Most of the arguments that Hierogrammates are angels are hearsay.\n\nI think these are both colorable arguments, but I come down on the \"not\"\nside. The Hierogrammates are obviously *spoken of *as angels, but they are\njust as obviously not two things that are *essential *to the meaning of the\nword \"angel.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/18/08, b sharp wrote:\n\nThe discussion would become quite interesting if Paul B was a Christian.\nAre you Paul?\n\nI really have no quarrel with a person who accepts no entity as a moral\nsuperior and who\nholds God and angels to the highest standards of his own morality. In the\nreal world.\n\nBut this is fiction. Do Wolfe's intentions matter at all? Paul, if you\nare arguing that the\nHierogrammates are of questionable morality by your standards I think your\npoint is made,\nvery, very clearly.\n\nIf you are arguing that the Hierogrammates are of sub-angelic status by\nWolfe's standards\nI think you need to use a lot more text quotes to support that.\n\nBut either way, answering that simple question would clarify this entire\ndiscussion:\n\nAre you judging the Hierogrammates by your moral standards or Wolfe's?\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nUse video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807181327u1b997071xeb62328b8dc13de9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T20:27:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<002d01c8e90e$17965040$26cc4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, um, I'm an idiot. That's about as clear as it's going to get. I\ncould quibble that Apheta might be lying, but I have no idea why she'd care\nto. I wish we knew the \"why,\" however." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/18/08, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nPaul B. quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:57 PM, John Watkins ", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T20:52:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807181206w2bc436f5y839363662a78c2bb@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was referring to the Watchman, who insists on his view of morality in the\nface of Armageddon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:06 PM, Paul B wrote:\nWell, the only two Rorschachs I know are the psychologist and the\nWatchman. (Trailer recently came out - topical, hey?) If we're talking\nabout the latter, as far as morality goes, sure I do - he's a posterboy\ndeontologist. I just don't couple that with the expectation that everyone\nbe moral in everything they do, and with the demand that all wrongs be\nbrutally punished.\n\nFor example, if futuristic humans kill a bunch of aliens in order to uplift\nthe survivors, I wouldn't be surprised, even though I'd think their action\nimmoral and wrong. They'd have to have a pretty solid track record of doing\nshady things before I'd call them evil, even. I just wouldn't stand for\ntheir calling themselves angels, either.\n\nPaul\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Paul B wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " That's not a relevant question. The heart of the matter is that an evil\ncourse of action was chosen, lesser or not. Thus, it's impossible to\nconsider the Hierogrammates to be untainted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So you apply Rorschach's standard?\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-20T04:27:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370807181352o475ff50crc7b946af776d710b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins:\n\na nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key omissions, I sense it is\na rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact finding or insight raising\nendeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.\n\nMentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside of the mainstream\nof Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you mentioned. Could\nbe the basis for further discussion.\n\nBut you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that he/she is also\nconsidered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel was the one\nto intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that Venant is killed I think),\nwhile omitting that \"Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along with Zophiel) who\nfollow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters battle.\" http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel\n\nIn my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God without angelic help\nwhile ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the specific work of angels.\nI'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting that the Biblical God\nand angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also, I don't see how an\ninvincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than the flood of one of many\nhuman worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both cases.\n\nBut the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now rephrased) question: How are\nHierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their immoral killing of human\nbeings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice genocide, territorial warfare and\nindividual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to impregnate one's\nsister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?\n\nYou've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can think that Gene Wolfe is a\nsecular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you perhaps thinking that Gene\nWolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and Cabalistic God and angels\nto be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race contaminated by these evil\naliens while the New Testament God and angels are something different- better and more pure?\nI don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea anyway though not particularly\nflattering to Mr. Wolfe.\n\nA much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian interpretation: that Gene Wolfe sees that\ngenocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has continued on through to the present\nday and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter how awful it appears and we\nmust have faith that all is leading to a better future for humanity.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48838E9E.2080907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-20T19:14:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nBut you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that he/she is also\nconsidered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel was the one\nto intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that Venant is killed I think)," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By Moses, do you mean Abraham?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God without angelic help\nwhile ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the specific work of angels.\nI'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting that the Biblical God\nand angels are sometimes working independently of each other? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the generally accepted as the case in the OT; Satan (\"The \nAdversary\") remains a heavenly presence but takes the adversarial \nposition of proving mankind or a particular man, like Job, is unworthy \nof G-d's favor, and may even command subordinate angels to help him \naccomplish this." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807201351k44f0a010wb901a263eda02824@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-20T20:51:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith. You seem\nto believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is\nsome kind of \"secular humanist.\" I can assure you that this is far\nfrom the truth. My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile\nwhat I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that\nSeverian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with what\nI see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false\nangels enacting a program of genocide.\n\nI don't think that the source you linked does what you think it does.\nIt refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice. The fact\nthat Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him an\nangel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan. I\ndon't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to genocide\nin any moral system I can think of.\n\nYour point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical\nangels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and does\nwork independently of them. The Hierogrammates, however, most\ncertainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to\nwhat the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means. My point about\nthe Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)\nand other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of\nmorality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended\nto intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and\nmay only guess at His will. The Biblical angels have no such\nrestriction.--another point that militates against reading the\nHierogrammates as literal angels.\n\nIf you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts\nof warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to\nunderstand Judeo-Christian ethics. Likewise, the notion that the\nHebrews are \"a race contaminated\" in absolutely antithetical to the\ncontemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are \"a\nrace contaminated\" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament is\na notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity. The\nGnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil\ndemiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.\nThis doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of\ncourse, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is is\na worthy one. Pas certainly takes that role.\n\nHere's another way to put my point. When a group of beings claim to\nbe angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? Especially when\nthey concede that:\n\n1) They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans\n2) They are not in direct contact with God\n3) They are not eternal\n4) They appear to exercise free will\n5) They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded to\nangels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on the\ntopic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious\nagenda.\n\nIn fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name\nending in \"-el\" it would be just as good a match for an angel as\nTzadkiel. And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that\nfact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book butchering\npeople isn't a sign that he's not an angel. I like this new theory.\nIt puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light. The Shrike\nChurch is ctually doing the will of God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp wrote:\n\n\n\nJohn Watkins:\n\na nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key omissions, I sense it is\na rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact finding or insight raising\nendeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.\n\nMentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside of the mainstream\nof Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you mentioned. Could\nbe the basis for further discussion.\n\nBut you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that he/she is also\nconsidered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel was the one\nto intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that Venant is killed I think),\nwhile omitting that \"Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along with Zophiel) who\nfollow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters battle.\" http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel\n\nIn my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God without angelic help\nwhile ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the specific work of angels.\nI'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting that the Biblical God\nand angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also, I don't see how an\ninvincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than the flood of one of many\nhuman worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both cases.\n\nBut the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now rephrased) question: How are\nHierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their immoral killing of human\nbeings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice genocide, territorial warfare and\nindividual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to impregnate one's\nsister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?\n\nYou've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can think that Gene Wolfe is a\nsecular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you perhaps thinking that Gene\nWolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and Cabalistic God and angels\nto be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race contaminated by these evil\naliens while the New Testament God and angels are something different- better and more pure?\nI don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea anyway though not particularly\nflattering to Mr. Wolfe.\n\nA much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian interpretation: that Gene Wolfe sees that\ngenocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has continued on through to the present\nday and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter how awful it appears and we\nmust have faith that all is leading to a better future for humanity.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nKeep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4866.67.142.130.12.1216587342.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-20T20:55:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807201351k44f0a010wb901a263eda02824@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have you read Revelations?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith. You seem\nto believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is\nsome kind of \"secular humanist.\" I can assure you that this is far\nfrom the truth. My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile\nwhat I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that\nSeverian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with what\nI see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false\nangels enacting a program of genocide.\n\nI don't think that the source you linked does what you think it does.\nIt refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice. The fact\nthat Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him an\nangel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan. I\ndon't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to genocide\nin any moral system I can think of.\n\nYour point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical\nangels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and does\nwork independently of them. The Hierogrammates, however, most\ncertainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to\nwhat the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means. My point about\nthe Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)\nand other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of\nmorality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended\nto intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and\nmay only guess at His will. The Biblical angels have no such\nrestriction.--another point that militates against reading the\nHierogrammates as literal angels.\n\nIf you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts\nof warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to\nunderstand Judeo-Christian ethics. Likewise, the notion that the\nHebrews are \"a race contaminated\" in absolutely antithetical to the\ncontemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are \"a\nrace contaminated\" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament is\na notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity. The\nGnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil\ndemiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.\nThis doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of\ncourse, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is is\na worthy one. Pas certainly takes that role.\n\nHere's another way to put my point. When a group of beings claim to\nbe angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? Especially when\nthey concede that:\n\n1) They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans\n2) They are not in direct contact with God\n3) They are not eternal\n4) They appear to exercise free will\n5) They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded to\nangels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on the\ntopic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious\nagenda.\n\nIn fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name\nending in \"-el\" it would be just as good a match for an angel as\nTzadkiel. And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that\nfact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book butchering\npeople isn't a sign that he's not an angel. I like this new theory.\nIt puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light. The Shrike\nChurch is ctually doing the will of God.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "John Watkins:\n\na nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key omissions,\nI sense it is\na rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact finding\nor insight raising\nendeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.\n\nMentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside of the\nmainstream\nof Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you\nmentioned. Could\nbe the basis for further discussion.\n\nBut you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that he/she\nis also\nconsidered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel was\nthe one\nto intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that Venant\nis killed I think),\nwhile omitting that \"Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along with\nZophiel) who\nfollow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters battle.\"\nhttp://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel\n\nIn my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God\nwithout angelic help\nwhile ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the specific\nwork of angels.\nI'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting\nthat the Biblical God\nand angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also, I\ndon't see how an\ninvincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than the\nflood of one of many\nhuman worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both\ncases.\n\nBut the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now rephrased)\nquestion: How are\nHierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their\nimmoral killing of human\nbeings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice genocide,\nterritorial warfare and\nindividual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to\nimpregnate one's\nsister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?\n\nYou've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can think\nthat Gene Wolfe is a\nsecular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you perhaps\nthinking that Gene\nWolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and\nCabalistic God and angels\nto be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race\ncontaminated by these evil\naliens while the New Testament God and angels are something different-\nbetter and more pure?\nI don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea\nanyway though not particularly\nflattering to Mr. Wolfe.\n\nA much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian interpretation:\nthat Gene Wolfe sees that\ngenocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has\ncontinued on through to the present\nday and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter how\nawful it appears and we\nmust have faith that all is leading to a better future for humanity.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nKeep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807201426q41337be1xfc73d76c73f1a386@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-20T21:26:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4866.67.142.130.12.1216587342.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a\nCatholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM, wrote:\nHave you read Revelations?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith. You seem\nto believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is\nsome kind of \"secular humanist.\" I can assure you that this is far\nfrom the truth. My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile\nwhat I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that\nSeverian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with what\nI see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false\nangels enacting a program of genocide.\n\nI don't think that the source you linked does what you think it does.\nIt refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice. The fact\nthat Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him an\nangel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan. I\ndon't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to genocide\nin any moral system I can think of.\n\nYour point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical\nangels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and does\nwork independently of them. The Hierogrammates, however, most\ncertainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to\nwhat the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means. My point about\nthe Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)\nand other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of\nmorality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended\nto intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and\nmay only guess at His will. The Biblical angels have no such\nrestriction.--another point that militates against reading the\nHierogrammates as literal angels.\n\nIf you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts\nof warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to\nunderstand Judeo-Christian ethics. Likewise, the notion that the\nHebrews are \"a race contaminated\" in absolutely antithetical to the\ncontemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are \"a\nrace contaminated\" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament is\na notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity. The\nGnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil\ndemiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.\nThis doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of\ncourse, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is is\na worthy one. Pas certainly takes that role.\n\nHere's another way to put my point. When a group of beings claim to\nbe angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? Especially when\nthey concede that:\n\n1) They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans\n2) They are not in direct contact with God\n3) They are not eternal\n4) They appear to exercise free will\n5) They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded to\nangels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on the\ntopic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious\nagenda.\n\nIn fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name\nending in \"-el\" it would be just as good a match for an angel as\nTzadkiel. And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that\nfact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book butchering\npeople isn't a sign that he's not an angel. I like this new theory.\nIt puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light. The Shrike\nChurch is ctually doing the will of God.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "John Watkins:\n\na nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key omissions,\nI sense it is\na rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact finding\nor insight raising\nendeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.\n\nMentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside of the\nmainstream\nof Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you\nmentioned. Could\nbe the basis for further discussion.\n\nBut you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that he/she\nis also\nconsidered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel was\nthe one\nto intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that Venant\nis killed I think),\nwhile omitting that \"Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along with\nZophiel) who\nfollow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters battle.\"\nhttp://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel\n\nIn my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God\nwithout angelic help\nwhile ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the specific\nwork of angels.\nI'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting\nthat the Biblical God\nand angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also, I\ndon't see how an\ninvincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than the\nflood of one of many\nhuman worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both\ncases.\n\nBut the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now rephrased)\nquestion: How are\nHierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their\nimmoral killing of human\nbeings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice genocide,\nterritorial warfare and\nindividual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to\nimpregnate one's\nsister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?\n\nYou've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can think\nthat Gene Wolfe is a\nsecular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you perhaps\nthinking that Gene\nWolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and\nCabalistic God and angels\nto be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race\ncontaminated by these evil\naliens while the New Testament God and angels are something different-\nbetter and more pure?\nI don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea\nanyway though not particularly\nflattering to Mr. Wolfe.\n\nA much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian interpretation:\nthat Gene Wolfe sees that\ngenocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has\ncontinued on through to the present\nday and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter how\nawful it appears and we\nmust have faith that all is leading to a better future for humanity.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nKeep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11596.67.142.130.16.1216596057.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-20T23:20:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807201426q41337be1xfc73d76c73f1a386@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God does, at\nleast according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World in\nRevelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?\n\nThat's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left behind. I\nfind it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are\nsaying without evidence.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a\nCatholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Have you read Revelations?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith. You seem\nto believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is\nsome kind of \"secular humanist.\" I can assure you that this is far\nfrom the truth. My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile\nwhat I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that\nSeverian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with what\nI see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false\nangels enacting a program of genocide.\n\nI don't think that the source you linked does what you think it does.\nIt refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice. The fact\nthat Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him an\nangel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan. I\ndon't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to genocide\nin any moral system I can think of.\n\nYour point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical\nangels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and does\nwork independently of them. The Hierogrammates, however, most\ncertainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to\nwhat the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means. My point about\nthe Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)\nand other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of\nmorality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended\nto intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and\nmay only guess at His will. The Biblical angels have no such\nrestriction.--another point that militates against reading the\nHierogrammates as literal angels.\n\nIf you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts\nof warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to\nunderstand Judeo-Christian ethics. Likewise, the notion that the\nHebrews are \"a race contaminated\" in absolutely antithetical to the\ncontemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are \"a\nrace contaminated\" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament is\na notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity. The\nGnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil\ndemiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.\nThis doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of\ncourse, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is is\na worthy one. Pas certainly takes that role.\n\nHere's another way to put my point. When a group of beings claim to\nbe angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? Especially when\nthey concede that:\n\n1) They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans\n2) They are not in direct contact with God\n3) They are not eternal\n4) They appear to exercise free will\n5) They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded to\nangels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on the\ntopic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious\nagenda.\n\nIn fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name\nending in \"-el\" it would be just as good a match for an angel as\nTzadkiel. And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that\nfact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book butchering\npeople isn't a sign that he's not an angel. I like this new theory.\nIt puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light. The Shrike\nChurch is ctually doing the will of God.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "John Watkins:\n\na nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key\nomissions,\nI sense it is\na rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact\nfinding\nor insight raising\nendeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.\n\nMentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside of\nthe\nmainstream\nof Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you\nmentioned. Could\nbe the basis for further discussion.\n\nBut you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that\nhe/she\nis also\nconsidered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel\nwas\nthe one\nto intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that\nVenant\nis killed I think),\nwhile omitting that \"Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along\nwith\nZophiel) who\nfollow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters battle.\"\nhttp://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel\n\nIn my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God\nwithout angelic help\nwhile ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the\nspecific\nwork of angels.\nI'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting\nthat the Biblical God\nand angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also, I\ndon't see how an\ninvincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than the\nflood of one of many\nhuman worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both\ncases.\n\nBut the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now rephrased)\nquestion: How are\nHierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their\nimmoral killing of human\nbeings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice genocide,\nterritorial warfare and\nindividual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to\nimpregnate one's\nsister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?\n\nYou've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can\nthink\nthat Gene Wolfe is a\nsecular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you\nperhaps\nthinking that Gene\nWolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and\nCabalistic God and angels\nto be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race\ncontaminated by these evil\naliens while the New Testament God and angels are something different-\nbetter and more pure?\nI don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea\nanyway though not particularly\nflattering to Mr. Wolfe.\n\nA much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian interpretation:\nthat Gene Wolfe sees that\ngenocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has\ncontinued on through to the present\nday and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter how\nawful it appears and we\nmust have faith that all is leading to a better future for humanity.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nKeep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807201647r13dbd48amd667487e2b91c37e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-20T23:47:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<11596.67.142.130.16.1216596057.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't mean to be snarky. I'm simply saying that bringing about the\nend of the world is distinguishable from killing everyone as part of a\nbreeding program." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 PM, wrote:\nNo. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God does, at\nleast according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World in\nRevelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?\n\nThat's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left behind. I\nfind it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are\nsaying without evidence.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes. Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a\nCatholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Have you read Revelations?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith. You seem\nto believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is\nsome kind of \"secular humanist.\" I can assure you that this is far\nfrom the truth. My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile\nwhat I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that\nSeverian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with what\nI see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false\nangels enacting a program of genocide.\n\nI don't think that the source you linked does what you think it does.\nIt refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice. The fact\nthat Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him an\nangel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan. I\ndon't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to genocide\nin any moral system I can think of.\n\nYour point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical\nangels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and does\nwork independently of them. The Hierogrammates, however, most\ncertainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to\nwhat the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means. My point about\nthe Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)\nand other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of\nmorality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended\nto intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and\nmay only guess at His will. The Biblical angels have no such\nrestriction.--another point that militates against reading the\nHierogrammates as literal angels.\n\nIf you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts\nof warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to\nunderstand Judeo-Christian ethics. Likewise, the notion that the\nHebrews are \"a race contaminated\" in absolutely antithetical to the\ncontemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are \"a\nrace contaminated\" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament is\na notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity. The\nGnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil\ndemiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.\nThis doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of\ncourse, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is is\na worthy one. Pas certainly takes that role.\n\nHere's another way to put my point. When a group of beings claim to\nbe angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? Especially when\nthey concede that:\n\n1) They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans\n2) They are not in direct contact with God\n3) They are not eternal\n4) They appear to exercise free will\n5) They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded to\nangels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on the\ntopic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious\nagenda.\n\nIn fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name\nending in \"-el\" it would be just as good a match for an angel as\nTzadkiel. And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that\nfact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book butchering\npeople isn't a sign that he's not an angel. I like this new theory.\nIt puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light. The Shrike\nChurch is ctually doing the will of God.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "John Watkins:\n\na nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key\nomissions,\nI sense it is\na rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact\nfinding\nor insight raising\nendeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.\n\nMentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside of\nthe\nmainstream\nof Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you\nmentioned. Could\nbe the basis for further discussion.\n\nBut you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that\nhe/she\nis also\nconsidered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel\nwas\nthe one\nto intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that\nVenant\nis killed I think),\nwhile omitting that \"Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along\nwith\nZophiel) who\nfollow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters battle.\"\nhttp://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel\n\nIn my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God\nwithout angelic help\nwhile ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the\nspecific\nwork of angels.\nI'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting\nthat the Biblical God\nand angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also, I\ndon't see how an\ninvincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than the\nflood of one of many\nhuman worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both\ncases.\n\nBut the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now rephrased)\nquestion: How are\nHierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their\nimmoral killing of human\nbeings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice genocide,\nterritorial warfare and\nindividual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to\nimpregnate one's\nsister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?\n\nYou've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can\nthink\nthat Gene Wolfe is a\nsecular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you\nperhaps\nthinking that Gene\nWolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and\nCabalistic God and angels\nto be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race\ncontaminated by these evil\naliens while the New Testament God and angels are something different-\nbetter and more pure?\nI don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea\nanyway though not particularly\nflattering to Mr. Wolfe.\n\nA much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian interpretation:\nthat Gene Wolfe sees that\ngenocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has\ncontinued on through to the present\nday and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter how\nawful it appears and we\nmust have faith that all is leading to a better future for humanity.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nKeep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807201657kf988a08q3a119ba0eee0ebe8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-20T23:57:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807201647r13dbd48amd667487e2b91c37e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know what, I'll elaborate on that.\n\nWhen God kills people off in Revelations, He knows, with certainty,\nwhat's awaiting them in the afterlife. Death is a lot less\nsignificant from the perspective of a being that has direct knowledge\nand experience of life after death. Additionally, God is the creator\nof life--He is sovereign over what He gives. As Shakespeare says,\n\"Every man owes God a death.\"\n\nThere's no evidence in the New Sun books that Tzadkiel et al. know or\nparticularly care about the afterlife of humans, any more than there\nis evidence that they're in touch with the Increate. Again, what's\nthe real difference between the Hierogrammates and the Shrike? Both\nare obviously more powerful than humans, both exhibit control over\ntime, both have religions devoted to or inspired by them, and both are\nthe creations of Roman Catholic science fiction writers. As far as I\ncan tell, they have equal claim to being angelic beings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:47 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nI didn't mean to be snarky. I'm simply saying that bringing about the\nend of the world is distinguishable from killing everyone as part of a\nbreeding program.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God does, at\nleast according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World in\nRevelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?\n\nThat's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left behind. I\nfind it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are\nsaying without evidence.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes. Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a\nCatholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Have you read Revelations?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith. You seem\nto believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is\nsome kind of \"secular humanist.\" I can assure you that this is far\nfrom the truth. My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile\nwhat I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that\nSeverian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with what\nI see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false\nangels enacting a program of genocide.\n\nI don't think that the source you linked does what you think it does.\nIt refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice. The fact\nthat Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him an\nangel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan. I\ndon't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to genocide\nin any moral system I can think of.\n\nYour point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical\nangels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and does\nwork independently of them. The Hierogrammates, however, most\ncertainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to\nwhat the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means. My point about\nthe Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)\nand other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of\nmorality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended\nto intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and\nmay only guess at His will. The Biblical angels have no such\nrestriction.--another point that militates against reading the\nHierogrammates as literal angels.\n\nIf you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts\nof warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to\nunderstand Judeo-Christian ethics. Likewise, the notion that the\nHebrews are \"a race contaminated\" in absolutely antithetical to the\ncontemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are \"a\nrace contaminated\" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament is\na notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity. The\nGnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil\ndemiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.\nThis doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of\ncourse, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is is\na worthy one. Pas certainly takes that role.\n\nHere's another way to put my point. When a group of beings claim to\nbe angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? Especially when\nthey concede that:\n\n1) They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans\n2) They are not in direct contact with God\n3) They are not eternal\n4) They appear to exercise free will\n5) They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded to\nangels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on the\ntopic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious\nagenda.\n\nIn fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name\nending in \"-el\" it would be just as good a match for an angel as\nTzadkiel. And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that\nfact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book butchering\npeople isn't a sign that he's not an angel. I like this new theory.\nIt puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light. The Shrike\nChurch is ctually doing the will of God.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "John Watkins:\n\na nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key\nomissions,\nI sense it is\na rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact\nfinding\nor insight raising\nendeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.\n\nMentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside of\nthe\nmainstream\nof Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you\nmentioned. Could\nbe the basis for further discussion.\n\nBut you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that\nhe/she\nis also\nconsidered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel\nwas\nthe one\nto intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that\nVenant\nis killed I think),\nwhile omitting that \"Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along\nwith\nZophiel) who\nfollow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters battle.\"\nhttp://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel\n\nIn my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God\nwithout angelic help\nwhile ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the\nspecific\nwork of angels.\nI'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting\nthat the Biblical God\nand angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also, I\ndon't see how an\ninvincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than the\nflood of one of many\nhuman worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both\ncases.\n\nBut the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now rephrased)\nquestion: How are\nHierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their\nimmoral killing of human\nbeings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice genocide,\nterritorial warfare and\nindividual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to\nimpregnate one's\nsister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?\n\nYou've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can\nthink\nthat Gene Wolfe is a\nsecular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you\nperhaps\nthinking that Gene\nWolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and\nCabalistic God and angels\nto be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race\ncontaminated by these evil\naliens while the New Testament God and angels are something different-\nbetter and more pure?\nI don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea\nanyway though not particularly\nflattering to Mr. Wolfe.\n\nA much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian interpretation:\nthat Gene Wolfe sees that\ngenocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has\ncontinued on through to the present\nday and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter how\nawful it appears and we\nmust have faith that all is leading to a better future for humanity.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nKeep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6677.67.142.130.16.1216598716.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-21T00:05:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807201647r13dbd48amd667487e2b91c37e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am sure that those undergoing the one or the other notice the\ndifference, and appreciate it.\n\nThe World ends every time a person dies.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't mean to be snarky. I'm simply saying that bringing about the\nend of the world is distinguishable from killing everyone as part of a\nbreeding program.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God does, at\nleast according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World in\nRevelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?\n\nThat's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left behind.\nI\nfind it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are\nsaying without evidence.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes. Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a\nCatholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Have you read Revelations?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith. You\nseem\nto believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is\nsome kind of \"secular humanist.\" I can assure you that this is far\nfrom the truth. My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile\nwhat I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that\nSeverian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with what\nI see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false\nangels enacting a program of genocide.\n\nI don't think that the source you linked does what you think it does.\nIt refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice. The fact\nthat Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him an\nangel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan. I\ndon't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to genocide\nin any moral system I can think of.\n\nYour point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical\nangels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and\ndoes\nwork independently of them. The Hierogrammates, however, most\ncertainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to\nwhat the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means. My point about\nthe Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)\nand other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of\nmorality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended\nto intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and\nmay only guess at His will. The Biblical angels have no such\nrestriction.--another point that militates against reading the\nHierogrammates as literal angels.\n\nIf you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts\nof warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to\nunderstand Judeo-Christian ethics. Likewise, the notion that the\nHebrews are \"a race contaminated\" in absolutely antithetical to the\ncontemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are \"a\nrace contaminated\" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament is\na notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity.\nThe\nGnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil\ndemiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.\nThis doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of\ncourse, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is\nis\na worthy one. Pas certainly takes that role.\n\nHere's another way to put my point. When a group of beings claim to\nbe angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? Especially when\nthey concede that:\n\n1) They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans\n2) They are not in direct contact with God\n3) They are not eternal\n4) They appear to exercise free will\n5) They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded\nto\nangels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on the\ntopic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious\nagenda.\n\nIn fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name\nending in \"-el\" it would be just as good a match for an angel as\nTzadkiel. And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that\nfact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book\nbutchering\npeople isn't a sign that he's not an angel. I like this new theory.\nIt puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light. The Shrike\nChurch is ctually doing the will of God.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "John Watkins:\n\na nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key\nomissions,\nI sense it is\na rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact\nfinding\nor insight raising\nendeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.\n\nMentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside of\nthe\nmainstream\nof Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you\nmentioned. Could\nbe the basis for further discussion.\n\nBut you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that\nhe/she\nis also\nconsidered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel\nwas\nthe one\nto intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that\nVenant\nis killed I think),\nwhile omitting that \"Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along\nwith\nZophiel) who\nfollow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters battle.\"\nhttp://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel\n\nIn my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God\nwithout angelic help\nwhile ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the\nspecific\nwork of angels.\nI'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting\nthat the Biblical God\nand angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also,\nI\ndon't see how an\ninvincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than\nthe\nflood of one of many\nhuman worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both\ncases.\n\nBut the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now rephrased)\nquestion: How are\nHierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their\nimmoral killing of human\nbeings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice genocide,\nterritorial warfare and\nindividual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to\nimpregnate one's\nsister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?\n\nYou've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can\nthink\nthat Gene Wolfe is a\nsecular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you\nperhaps\nthinking that Gene\nWolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and\nCabalistic God and angels\nto be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race\ncontaminated by these evil\naliens while the New Testament God and angels are something\ndifferent-\nbetter and more pure?\nI don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea\nanyway though not particularly\nflattering to Mr. Wolfe.\n\nA much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian\ninterpretation:\nthat Gene Wolfe sees that\ngenocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has\ncontinued on through to the present\nday and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter\nhow\nawful it appears and we\nmust have faith that all is leading to a better future for humanity.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nKeep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15727.67.142.130.16.1216598908.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-21T00:08:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807201657kf988a08q3a119ba0eee0ebe8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You don't have to know the details, you just have to know that everything\nis OK. Since nothing happens save by the will of God, everything that\nhappens is OK.\n\n\nIt works for me.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know what, I'll elaborate on that.\n\nWhen God kills people off in Revelations, He knows, with certainty,\nwhat's awaiting them in the afterlife. Death is a lot less\nsignificant from the perspective of a being that has direct knowledge\nand experience of life after death. Additionally, God is the creator\nof life--He is sovereign over what He gives. As Shakespeare says,\n\"Every man owes God a death.\"\n\nThere's no evidence in the New Sun books that Tzadkiel et al. know or\nparticularly care about the afterlife of humans, any more than there\nis evidence that they're in touch with the Increate. Again, what's\nthe real difference between the Hierogrammates and the Shrike? Both\nare obviously more powerful than humans, both exhibit control over\ntime, both have religions devoted to or inspired by them, and both are\nthe creations of Roman Catholic science fiction writers. As far as I\ncan tell, they have equal claim to being angelic beings.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:47 PM, John Watkins \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I didn't mean to be snarky. I'm simply saying that bringing about the\nend of the world is distinguishable from killing everyone as part of a\nbreeding program.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God does,\nat\nleast according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World in\nRevelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?\n\nThat's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left\nbehind. I\nfind it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are\nsaying without evidence.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes. Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a\nCatholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Have you read Revelations?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith. You\nseem\nto believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is\nsome kind of \"secular humanist.\" I can assure you that this is far\nfrom the truth. My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile\nwhat I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that\nSeverian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with\nwhat\nI see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false\nangels enacting a program of genocide.\n\nI don't think that the source you linked does what you think it\ndoes.\nIt refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice. The\nfact\nthat Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him\nan\nangel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan. I\ndon't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to\ngenocide\nin any moral system I can think of.\n\nYour point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical\nangels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and\ndoes\nwork independently of them. The Hierogrammates, however, most\ncertainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to\nwhat the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means. My point about\nthe Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)\nand other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of\nmorality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended\nto intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and\nmay only guess at His will. The Biblical angels have no such\nrestriction.--another point that militates against reading the\nHierogrammates as literal angels.\n\nIf you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts\nof warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to\nunderstand Judeo-Christian ethics. Likewise, the notion that the\nHebrews are \"a race contaminated\" in absolutely antithetical to the\ncontemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are \"a\nrace contaminated\" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament\nis\na notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity.\nThe\nGnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil\ndemiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.\nThis doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of\ncourse, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is\nis\na worthy one. Pas certainly takes that role.\n\nHere's another way to put my point. When a group of beings claim to\nbe angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? Especially\nwhen\nthey concede that:\n\n1) They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans\n2) They are not in direct contact with God\n3) They are not eternal\n4) They appear to exercise free will\n5) They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded\nto\nangels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on\nthe\ntopic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious\nagenda.\n\nIn fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name\nending in \"-el\" it would be just as good a match for an angel as\nTzadkiel. And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that\nfact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book\nbutchering\npeople isn't a sign that he's not an angel. I like this new theory.\nIt puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light. The Shrike\nChurch is ctually doing the will of God.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "John Watkins:\n\na nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key\nomissions,\nI sense it is\na rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact\nfinding\nor insight raising\nendeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.\n\nMentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside\nof\nthe\nmainstream\nof Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you\nmentioned. Could\nbe the basis for further discussion.\n\nBut you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that\nhe/she\nis also\nconsidered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that\nTzadkiel\nwas\nthe one\nto intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that\nVenant\nis killed I think),\nwhile omitting that \"Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along\nwith\nZophiel) who\nfollow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters\nbattle.\"\nhttp://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel\n\nIn my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God\nwithout angelic help\nwhile ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the\nspecific\nwork of angels.\nI'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you\nsuggesting\nthat the Biblical God\nand angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also,\nI\ndon't see how an\ninvincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than\nthe\nflood of one of many\nhuman worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both\ncases.\n\nBut the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now\nrephrased)\nquestion: How are\nHierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their\nimmoral killing of human\nbeings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice\ngenocide,\nterritorial warfare and\nindividual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to\nimpregnate one's\nsister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?\n\nYou've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can\nthink\nthat Gene Wolfe is a\nsecular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you\nperhaps\nthinking that Gene\nWolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and\nCabalistic God and angels\nto be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race\ncontaminated by these evil\naliens while the New Testament God and angels are something\ndifferent-\nbetter and more pure?\nI don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea\nanyway though not particularly\nflattering to Mr. Wolfe.\n\nA much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian\ninterpretation:\nthat Gene Wolfe sees that\ngenocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has\ncontinued on through to the present\nday and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter\nhow\nawful it appears and we\nmust have faith that all is leading to a better future for\nhumanity.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nKeep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807201811l724cf1cere7b072f438e5b098@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T01:11:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<6677.67.142.130.16.1216598716.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not debating whether it sucks equally for the person dying; I'm\ndebating whether the morality of the person doing the killing is the\nsame.\n\nAnother way to put it--the moral authority of an angel derives from\nthe fact that the angel is doing God's will, not from the angel's\nsuperior position to man on the Great Chain of Being--demons are\nequally \"above\" man but act immorally because their actions do not\nconform with God's will.\n\nThe Hierogrammates have no special access to the will of the Increate.\n They are guessing. I'd prefer that genocide be based on something\nbetter than a guess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 8:05 PM, wrote:\nI am sure that those undergoing the one or the other notice the\ndifference, and appreciate it.\n\nThe World ends every time a person dies.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I didn't mean to be snarky. I'm simply saying that bringing about the\nend of the world is distinguishable from killing everyone as part of a\nbreeding program.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God does, at\nleast according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World in\nRevelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?\n\nThat's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left behind.\nI\nfind it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are\nsaying without evidence.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes. Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a\nCatholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Have you read Revelations?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith. You\nseem\nto believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe is\nsome kind of \"secular humanist.\" I can assure you that this is far\nfrom the truth. My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile\nwhat I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that\nSeverian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with what\nI see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false\nangels enacting a program of genocide.\n\nI don't think that the source you linked does what you think it does.\nIt refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice. The fact\nthat Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him an\nangel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan. I\ndon't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to genocide\nin any moral system I can think of.\n\nYour point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical\nangels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and\ndoes\nwork independently of them. The Hierogrammates, however, most\ncertainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as to\nwhat the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means. My point about\nthe Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe in)\nand other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of\nmorality may be extended to the First Principle that is not extended\nto intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him and\nmay only guess at His will. The Biblical angels have no such\nrestriction.--another point that militates against reading the\nHierogrammates as literal angels.\n\nIf you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and acts\nof warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to\nunderstand Judeo-Christian ethics. Likewise, the notion that the\nHebrews are \"a race contaminated\" in absolutely antithetical to the\ncontemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are \"a\nrace contaminated\" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament is\na notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity.\nThe\nGnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil\ndemiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.\nThis doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of\ncourse, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is\nis\na worthy one. Pas certainly takes that role.\n\nHere's another way to put my point. When a group of beings claim to\nbe angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? Especially when\nthey concede that:\n\n1) They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans\n2) They are not in direct contact with God\n3) They are not eternal\n4) They appear to exercise free will\n5) They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded\nto\nangels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on the\ntopic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious\nagenda.\n\nIn fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name\nending in \"-el\" it would be just as good a match for an angel as\nTzadkiel. And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that\nfact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book\nbutchering\npeople isn't a sign that he's not an angel. I like this new theory.\nIt puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light. The Shrike\nChurch is ctually doing the will of God.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "John Watkins:\n\na nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key\nomissions,\nI sense it is\na rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact\nfinding\nor insight raising\nendeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.\n\nMentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside of\nthe\nmainstream\nof Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you\nmentioned. Could\nbe the basis for further discussion.\n\nBut you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that\nhe/she\nis also\nconsidered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that Tzadkiel\nwas\nthe one\nto intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that\nVenant\nis killed I think),\nwhile omitting that \"Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along\nwith\nZophiel) who\nfollow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters battle.\"\nhttp://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel\n\nIn my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by God\nwithout angelic help\nwhile ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the\nspecific\nwork of angels.\nI'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you suggesting\nthat the Biblical God\nand angels are sometimes working independently of each other? Also,\nI\ndon't see how an\ninvincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than\nthe\nflood of one of many\nhuman worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both\ncases.\n\nBut the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now rephrased)\nquestion: How are\nHierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their\nimmoral killing of human\nbeings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice genocide,\nterritorial warfare and\nindividual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing to\nimpregnate one's\nsister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?\n\nYou've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can\nthink\nthat Gene Wolfe is a\nsecular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you\nperhaps\nthinking that Gene\nWolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and\nCabalistic God and angels\nto be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race\ncontaminated by these evil\naliens while the New Testament God and angels are something\ndifferent-\nbetter and more pure?\nI don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting idea\nanyway though not particularly\nflattering to Mr. Wolfe.\n\nA much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian\ninterpretation:\nthat Gene Wolfe sees that\ngenocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has\ncontinued on through to the present\nday and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter\nhow\nawful it appears and we\nmust have faith that all is leading to a better future for humanity.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nKeep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1928.72.171.0.141.1216603357.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-21T01:22:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807201811l724cf1cere7b072f438e5b098@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if that's the kind of thing you enjoy, you go right ahead and do that.\n\nI find it instructive to read the bits in the Bible where humans encounter\nangels, especially Abraham with the boys on the way to Sodom. Also the bit\nabout an angel being a demon that stands between you and something that\nwants to hurt you.\n\nAlso, I am quite comfortable with the idea that God does evil things as\nwell as good things.\n\nRemember, everything that occurs is the will of God.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not debating whether it sucks equally for the person dying; I'm\ndebating whether the morality of the person doing the killing is the\nsame.\n\nAnother way to put it--the moral authority of an angel derives from\nthe fact that the angel is doing God's will, not from the angel's\nsuperior position to man on the Great Chain of Being--demons are\nequally \"above\" man but act immorally because their actions do not\nconform with God's will.\n\nThe Hierogrammates have no special access to the will of the Increate.\n They are guessing. I'd prefer that genocide be based on something\nbetter than a guess.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 8:05 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am sure that those undergoing the one or the other notice the\ndifference, and appreciate it.\n\nThe World ends every time a person dies.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I didn't mean to be snarky. I'm simply saying that bringing about the\nend of the world is distinguishable from killing everyone as part of a\nbreeding program.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "No. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God does,\nat\nleast according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World in\nRevelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?\n\nThat's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left\nbehind.\nI\nfind it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are\nsaying without evidence.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Yes. Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a\nCatholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Have you read Revelations?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith. You\nseem\nto believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe\nis\nsome kind of \"secular humanist.\" I can assure you that this is far\nfrom the truth. My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile\nwhat I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that\nSeverian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with\nwhat\nI see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false\nangels enacting a program of genocide.\n\nI don't think that the source you linked does what you think it\ndoes.\nIt refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice. The\nfact\nthat Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him\nan\nangel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan.\nI\ndon't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to\ngenocide\nin any moral system I can think of.\n\nYour point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical\nangels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and\ndoes\nwork independently of them. The Hierogrammates, however, most\ncertainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as\nto\nwhat the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means. My point about\nthe Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe\nin)\nand other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of\nmorality may be extended to the First Principle that is not\nextended\nto intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him\nand\nmay only guess at His will. The Biblical angels have no such\nrestriction.--another point that militates against reading the\nHierogrammates as literal angels.\n\nIf you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and\nacts\nof warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to\nunderstand Judeo-Christian ethics. Likewise, the notion that the\nHebrews are \"a race contaminated\" in absolutely antithetical to the\ncontemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are\n\"a\nrace contaminated\" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament\nis\na notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity.\nThe\nGnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil\ndemiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.\nThis doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of\ncourse, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is\nis\na worthy one. Pas certainly takes that role.\n\nHere's another way to put my point. When a group of beings claim\nto\nbe angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? Especially\nwhen\nthey concede that:\n\n1) They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans\n2) They are not in direct contact with God\n3) They are not eternal\n4) They appear to exercise free will\n5) They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded\nto\nangels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on\nthe\ntopic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a\nmysterious\nagenda.\n\nIn fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name\nending in \"-el\" it would be just as good a match for an angel as\nTzadkiel. And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument,\nthat\nfact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book\nbutchering\npeople isn't a sign that he's not an angel. I like this new\ntheory.\nIt puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light. The Shrike\nChurch is ctually doing the will of God.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "John Watkins:\n\na nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key\nomissions,\nI sense it is\na rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact\nfinding\nor insight raising\nendeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.\n\nMentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside\nof\nthe\nmainstream\nof Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you\nmentioned. Could\nbe the basis for further discussion.\n\nBut you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that\nhe/she\nis also\nconsidered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that\nTzadkiel\nwas\nthe one\nto intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that\nVenant\nis killed I think),\nwhile omitting that \"Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along\nwith\nZophiel) who\nfollow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters\nbattle.\"\nhttp://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel\n\nIn my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by\nGod\nwithout angelic help\nwhile ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the\nspecific\nwork of angels.\nI'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you\nsuggesting\nthat the Biblical God\nand angels are sometimes working independently of each other?\nAlso,\nI\ndon't see how an\ninvincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than\nthe\nflood of one of many\nhuman worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both\ncases.\n\nBut the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now\nrephrased)\nquestion: How are\nHierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their\nimmoral killing of human\nbeings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice\ngenocide,\nterritorial warfare and\nindividual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing\nto\nimpregnate one's\nsister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?\n\nYou've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can\nthink\nthat Gene Wolfe is a\nsecular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you\nperhaps\nthinking that Gene\nWolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and\nCabalistic God and angels\nto be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race\ncontaminated by these evil\naliens while the New Testament God and angels are something\ndifferent-\nbetter and more pure?\nI don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting\nidea\nanyway though not particularly\nflattering to Mr. Wolfe.\n\nA much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian\ninterpretation:\nthat Gene Wolfe sees that\ngenocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has\ncontinued on through to the present\nday and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter\nhow\nawful it appears and we\nmust have faith that all is leading to a better future for\nhumanity.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nKeep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807201825s2b01d143q2f8ce7f2510852f6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T01:25:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1928.72.171.0.141.1216603357.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not here to question your personal religious views. But your\nsecond-to-last sentence is not orthodox Catholic theology--we can't\nassume that Wolfe agrees with it on the basis of his Catholicism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 9:22 PM, wrote:\nWell, if that's the kind of thing you enjoy, you go right ahead and do that.\n\nI find it instructive to read the bits in the Bible where humans encounter\nangels, especially Abraham with the boys on the way to Sodom. Also the bit\nabout an angel being a demon that stands between you and something that\nwants to hurt you.\n\nAlso, I am quite comfortable with the idea that God does evil things as\nwell as good things.\n\nRemember, everything that occurs is the will of God.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not debating whether it sucks equally for the person dying; I'm\ndebating whether the morality of the person doing the killing is the\nsame.\n\nAnother way to put it--the moral authority of an angel derives from\nthe fact that the angel is doing God's will, not from the angel's\nsuperior position to man on the Great Chain of Being--demons are\nequally \"above\" man but act immorally because their actions do not\nconform with God's will.\n\nThe Hierogrammates have no special access to the will of the Increate.\n They are guessing. I'd prefer that genocide be based on something\nbetter than a guess.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 8:05 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I am sure that those undergoing the one or the other notice the\ndifference, and appreciate it.\n\nThe World ends every time a person dies.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I didn't mean to be snarky. I'm simply saying that bringing about the\nend of the world is distinguishable from killing everyone as part of a\nbreeding program.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "No. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God does,\nat\nleast according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World in\nRevelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?\n\nThat's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left\nbehind.\nI\nfind it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are\nsaying without evidence.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Yes. Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a\nCatholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Have you read Revelations?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith. You\nseem\nto believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe\nis\nsome kind of \"secular humanist.\" I can assure you that this is far\nfrom the truth. My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to reconcile\nwhat I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that\nSeverian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with\nwhat\nI see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false\nangels enacting a program of genocide.\n\nI don't think that the source you linked does what you think it\ndoes.\nIt refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice. The\nfact\nthat Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make him\nan\nangel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan.\nI\ndon't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to\ngenocide\nin any moral system I can think of.\n\nYour point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical\nangels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and\ndoes\nwork independently of them. The Hierogrammates, however, most\ncertainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as\nto\nwhat the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means. My point about\nthe Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe\nin)\nand other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption of\nmorality may be extended to the First Principle that is not\nextended\nto intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him\nand\nmay only guess at His will. The Biblical angels have no such\nrestriction.--another point that militates against reading the\nHierogrammates as literal angels.\n\nIf you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and\nacts\nof warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling to\nunderstand Judeo-Christian ethics. Likewise, the notion that the\nHebrews are \"a race contaminated\" in absolutely antithetical to the\ncontemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are\n\"a\nrace contaminated\" due to the actions the God of the Old Testament\nis\na notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity.\nThe\nGnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an evil\ndemiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never have.\nThis doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge, of\ncourse, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel is\nis\na worthy one. Pas certainly takes that role.\n\nHere's another way to put my point. When a group of beings claim\nto\nbe angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? Especially\nwhen\nthey concede that:\n\n1) They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans\n2) They are not in direct contact with God\n3) They are not eternal\n4) They appear to exercise free will\n5) They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded\nto\nangels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on\nthe\ntopic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a\nmysterious\nagenda.\n\nIn fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name\nending in \"-el\" it would be just as good a match for an angel as\nTzadkiel. And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument,\nthat\nfact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book\nbutchering\npeople isn't a sign that he's not an angel. I like this new\ntheory.\nIt puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light. The Shrike\nChurch is ctually doing the will of God.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "John Watkins:\n\na nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key\nomissions,\nI sense it is\na rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact\nfinding\nor insight raising\nendeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.\n\nMentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more outside\nof\nthe\nmainstream\nof Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad you\nmentioned. Could\nbe the basis for further discussion.\n\nBut you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit that\nhe/she\nis also\nconsidered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that\nTzadkiel\nwas\nthe one\nto intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that\nVenant\nis killed I think),\nwhile omitting that \"Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers (along\nwith\nZophiel) who\nfollow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters\nbattle.\"\nhttp://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel\n\nIn my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by\nGod\nwithout angelic help\nwhile ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the\nspecific\nwork of angels.\nI'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you\nsuggesting\nthat the Biblical God\nand angels are sometimes working independently of each other?\nAlso,\nI\ndon't see how an\ninvincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different than\nthe\nflood of one of many\nhuman worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in both\ncases.\n\nBut the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now\nrephrased)\nquestion: How are\nHierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of their\nimmoral killing of human\nbeings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice\ngenocide,\nterritorial warfare and\nindividual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing\nto\nimpregnate one's\nsister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's wife)?\n\nYou've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you can\nthink\nthat Gene Wolfe is a\nsecular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you\nperhaps\nthinking that Gene\nWolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and\nCabalistic God and angels\nto be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race\ncontaminated by these evil\naliens while the New Testament God and angels are something\ndifferent-\nbetter and more pure?\nI don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting\nidea\nanyway though not particularly\nflattering to Mr. Wolfe.\n\nA much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian\ninterpretation:\nthat Gene Wolfe sees that\ngenocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has\ncontinued on through to the present\nday and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no matter\nhow\nawful it appears and we\nmust have faith that all is leading to a better future for\nhumanity.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nKeep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14653.72.171.0.141.1216604577.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-21T01:42:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807201825s2b01d143q2f8ce7f2510852f6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fine, fine. Everyone's got to have a hobby.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not here to question your personal religious views. But your\nsecond-to-last sentence is not orthodox Catholic theology--we can't\nassume that Wolfe agrees with it on the basis of his Catholicism.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 9:22 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, if that's the kind of thing you enjoy, you go right ahead and do\nthat.\n\nI find it instructive to read the bits in the Bible where humans\nencounter\nangels, especially Abraham with the boys on the way to Sodom. Also the\nbit\nabout an angel being a demon that stands between you and something that\nwants to hurt you.\n\nAlso, I am quite comfortable with the idea that God does evil things as\nwell as good things.\n\nRemember, everything that occurs is the will of God.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm not debating whether it sucks equally for the person dying; I'm\ndebating whether the morality of the person doing the killing is the\nsame.\n\nAnother way to put it--the moral authority of an angel derives from\nthe fact that the angel is doing God's will, not from the angel's\nsuperior position to man on the Great Chain of Being--demons are\nequally \"above\" man but act immorally because their actions do not\nconform with God's will.\n\nThe Hierogrammates have no special access to the will of the Increate.\n They are guessing. I'd prefer that genocide be based on something\nbetter than a guess.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 8:05 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I am sure that those undergoing the one or the other notice the\ndifference, and appreciate it.\n\nThe World ends every time a person dies.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I didn't mean to be snarky. I'm simply saying that bringing about\nthe\nend of the world is distinguishable from killing everyone as part of\na\nbreeding program.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:20 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "No. I am suggesting that genocide is just one of the things God\ndoes,\nat\nleast according to the books. Who is it who is destroying the World\nin\nRevelations? Is it evil genocidal aliens?\n\nThat's quite a remarkable assumption, by the way, about the left\nbehind.\nI\nfind it safer not to make too many assumptions about what people are\nsaying without evidence.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Yes. Are you suggesting that Urth of the New Sun be read as a\nCatholic, sci-fi version of Left Behind?\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 4:55 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Have you read Revelations?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "It's interesting that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith. You\nseem\nto believe that I have an agenda--namely, to show that Gene Wolfe\nis\nsome kind of \"secular humanist.\" I can assure you that this is\nfar\nfrom the truth. My agenda, insofar as I have one, is to\nreconcile\nwhat I consider to be the sine qua non of the New Sun books--that\nSeverian has a special destiny in the mind of the Increate--with\nwhat\nI see as overwhelming evidence that the Hierogrammates are false\nangels enacting a program of genocide.\n\nI don't think that the source you linked does what you think it\ndoes.\nIt refers to Tzadkiel as an angel of mercy, not of justice. The\nfact\nthat Tzadkiel also has a role in the angelic army doesn't make\nhim\nan\nangel of justice--it makes him an angel who fought against Satan.\nI\ndon't think that fighting the Devil is morally equivalent to\ngenocide\nin any moral system I can think of.\n\nYour point about the Biblical angels is half-right--the Biblical\nangels do not work independently of God, but He of course may and\ndoes\nwork independently of them. The Hierogrammates, however, most\ncertainly work independently of the Increate, or I'm at a loss as\nto\nwhat the Cock, the Angel, and the Eagle tale means. My point\nabout\nthe Flood (which, again, Wolfe almost certainly does not believe\nin)\nand other acts of divine punishment is merely that a presumption\nof\nmorality may be extended to the First Principle that is not\nextended\nto intermediaries who admittedly are infinitely removed from Him\nand\nmay only guess at His will. The Biblical angels have no such\nrestriction.--another point that militates against reading the\nHierogrammates as literal angels.\n\nIf you're unable to distinguish between world-wide genocide and\nacts\nof warfare, then I'm afraid it's you, not me, that's struggling\nto\nunderstand Judeo-Christian ethics. Likewise, the notion that\nthe\nHebrews are \"a race contaminated\" in absolutely antithetical to\nthe\ncontemporary Catholic Church, and the notion that the Hebrews are\n\"a\nrace contaminated\" due to the actions the God of the Old\nTestament\nis\na notion that has ALWAYS been condemned by orthodox Christianity.\nThe\nGnostic heretics may have viewed the Old Testament deity as an\nevil\ndemiurge, but the orthodox Christian faiths do not and never\nhave.\nThis doesn't mean that Wolfe didn't use the idea of a demiurge,\nof\ncourse, and the question of whether that's exactly what Tzadkiel\nis\nis\na worthy one. Pas certainly takes that role.\n\nHere's another way to put my point. When a group of beings claim\nto\nbe angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? Especially\nwhen\nthey concede that:\n\n1) They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans\n2) They are not in direct contact with God\n3) They are not eternal\n4) They appear to exercise free will\n5) They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities\naccorded\nto\nangels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on\nthe\ntopic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a\nmysterious\nagenda.\n\nIn fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name\nending in \"-el\" it would be just as good a match for an angel as\nTzadkiel. And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument,\nthat\nfact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book\nbutchering\npeople isn't a sign that he's not an angel. I like this new\ntheory.\nIt puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light. The Shrike\nChurch is ctually doing the will of God.\n\nOn Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 12:27 AM, b sharp\n\nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "John Watkins:\n\na nice and clever rebuttal to my post! Still, because of key\nomissions,\nI sense it is\na rebuttal, that is a debate tactic, rather than part of a fact\nfinding\nor insight raising\nendeavor. But I'll do my best to address your issues.\n\nMentioning that Tzadkiel is considered an arch-angel more\noutside\nof\nthe\nmainstream\nof Roman Catholic tradition was a notable point which I'm glad\nyou\nmentioned. Could\nbe the basis for further discussion.\n\nBut you note Tzadkiel is known as an angel of mercy and omit\nthat\nhe/she\nis also\nconsidered an angel of justice in some texts. You note that\nTzadkiel\nwas\nthe one\nto intervene in Moses' sacrifice of his son (no coincidence that\nVenant\nis killed I think),\nwhile omitting that \"Zadkiel is one of two standard bearers\n(along\nwith\nZophiel) who\nfollow directly behind Michael as the head archangel enters\nbattle.\"\nhttp://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tzadkiel\n\nIn my list of genocides you take pains to note the ones done by\nGod\nwithout angelic help\nwhile ignoring the ones (10th plague for example) that were the\nspecific\nwork of angels.\nI'm unclear on the point of that argument anyway. Are you\nsuggesting\nthat the Biblical God\nand angels are sometimes working independently of each other?\nAlso,\nI\ndon't see how an\ninvincible angel leading Hebrews in battle is much different\nthan\nthe\nflood of one of many\nhuman worlds in BotNS. A population of people is wiped out in\nboth\ncases.\n\nBut the biggest omission, I think, is an anwer to my (now\nrephrased)\nquestion: How are\nHierogrammates disqualified as angel equivalents because of\ntheir\nimmoral killing of human\nbeings when the Biblical God and angels routinely practice\ngenocide,\nterritorial warfare and\nindividual murders of humans for transgressions such as refusing\nto\nimpregnate one's\nsister-in-law (Onan) and looking over one's shoulder (Lot's\nwife)?\n\nYou've read the James Jordan interview so there is no way you\ncan\nthink\nthat Gene Wolfe is a\nsecular humanist who rejects the Bible and Christianity. Are you\nperhaps\nthinking that Gene\nWolfe considers the angry, jealous, genocidal Old Testament and\nCabalistic God and angels\nto be akin to evil aliens? That the Hebrews were (are?) a race\ncontaminated by these evil\naliens while the New Testament God and angels are something\ndifferent-\nbetter and more pure?\nI don't think you are suggesting this but it is an interesting\nidea\nanyway though not particularly\nflattering to Mr. Wolfe.\n\nA much nicer interpretation is a mainstream Christian\ninterpretation:\nthat Gene Wolfe sees that\ngenocide was a part of Biblical human history, sees that it has\ncontinued on through to the present\nday and knows that somehow it must be part of God's plan no\nmatter\nhow\nawful it appears and we\nmust have faith that all is leading to a better future for\nhumanity.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nKeep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_family_safety_072008\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<488406E2.7060208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T03:47:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<15727.67.142.130.16.1216598908.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nYou don't have to know the details, you just have to know that everything\nis OK. Since nothing happens save by the will of God, everything that\nhappens is OK.\n\n\nIt works for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Free furniture and books at bruninans' house!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2836.67.142.130.44.1216612573.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-21T03:56:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<488406E2.7060208@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A foolish person attempting to rob me may be the will of God.\n\nSo may my shooting him.\n\nIf you attack the Persians you will destroy a great empire.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You don't have to know the details, you just have to know that\neverything\nis OK. Since nothing happens save by the will of God, everything that\nhappens is OK.\n\n\nIt works for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Free furniture and books at bruninans' house!\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<97BE1801-142B-4A5A-8062-2F082FB09580@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T05:19:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<2836.67.142.130.44.1216612573.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 20, 2008, at 10:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nA foolish person attempting to rob me may be the will of God.\n\nSo may my shooting him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Free bullets at Brunians' house!\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<488435A6.5040001@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T07:07:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<2836.67.142.130.44.1216612573.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nA foolish person attempting to rob me may be the will of God.\n\nSo may my shooting him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "your \"OK with that\" is not like our earth \"OK with that\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<133095733-1216624934-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2069200425-@bxe166.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2008-07-21T07:21:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<488435A6.5040001@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not sure how this latest thread helps me appreciate GW's writing...sure makes me understand religion a lot less \nsomeone please get a hold of \"Alamut\" and comment....well worth it \n------Original Message------\nFrom: Jeff Wilson\nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReplyTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSent: Jul 21, 2008 7:07 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) What's So Great About Ushas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nA foolish person attempting to rob me may be the will of God.\n\nSo may my shooting him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "your \"OK with that\" is not like our earth \"OK with that\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8134.67.142.130.39.1216642567.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-21T12:16:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<488435A6.5040001@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mine works.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A foolish person attempting to rob me may be the will of God.\n\nSo may my shooting him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "your \"OK with that\" is not like our earth \"OK with that\"\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4884808D.10907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T12:26:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<8134.67.142.130.39.1216642567.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nMine works." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except for reducing your credibility to a level below the cosmic \nmicrowave background, you mean? When you say you believe X is always \ntrue, then X might be true, and then that you will oppose X with deadly \nforce in the space of a couple messages, I can't agree that \"works\" \nmeans what you think it means, I have to find \"mine\" suspect as well, \nand frankly I'm not entirely comfortable with your use of punctuation \neither." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10777.67.142.130.44.1216644141.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-21T12:42:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<4884808D.10907@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What is your problem?\n\nEverything that happens is the will of God.\n\nEverything that actually happens.\n\nThis is a necessary concomitant of God being both omnipotent and omniscient.\n\nIt does not mean I do not have free will.\n\nIt means that any actions that I (or anyone else) actually accomplish -\nnote well - are also the will of God.\n\nAnything that I (or anyone else) attempt to do but does not actually get\ndone is not.\n\nThus if a foolish person decides that it is a good idea to go rob me, and\nfor whatever reason is able to do so, then him robbing me would be the\nwill of God. If, on the other hand, I shot him and fed him to the pigs or\nwhatever, then it would be the will of God that he be dead and eaten by\nthe pigs.\n\nI really don't understand your problem with this, but it is perhaps not\nnecessary that I understand. I am certainly becoming tired of arguing it\nwith you, and will probably give up here soon if not now.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mine works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Except for reducing your credibility to a level below the cosmic\nmicrowave background, you mean? When you say you believe X is always\ntrue, then X might be true, and then that you will oppose X with deadly\nforce in the space of a couple messages, I can't agree that \"works\"\nmeans what you think it means, I have to find \"mine\" suspect as well,\nand frankly I'm not entirely comfortable with your use of punctuation\neither.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48848761.9040802@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T12:56:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<10777.67.142.130.44.1216644141.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nWhat is your problem?\n\nEverything that happens is the will of God.\n\nEverything that actually happens.\n\nThis is a necessary concomitant of God being both omnipotent and omniscient." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forgot that you leave off the omnibenevolent, sorry.\n\nIf God's will encompasses good and evil, how do you distinguish them, again?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9c6b022b0807210645r343e4b6cub34c3818240d2b53@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Ranjit Bhatnagar", "address": "ranjit at moonmilk.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T13:45:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<48848761.9040802@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to ask the participants in this particular discussion thread\nto desist - it's drifted too far from the core topic. Feel free to\ncontinue by by email if you like.\n\n- Ranjit, list administator" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9692.67.142.130.30.1216649742.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-21T14:15:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<48848761.9040802@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is your problem?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Everything that happens is the will of God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Everything that actually happens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is a necessary concomitant of God being both omnipotent and\nomniscient." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I forgot that you leave off the omnibenevolent, sorry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If God's will encompasses good and evil, how do you distinguish them,\nagain?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On a case by case basis. It's usually pretty obvious.\n\nIf it involves raping babies it is normally evil, for instance.\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2008-07-21T14:23:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe Heretic?", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807181238y717bec8ref3bf7422a4124a1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 3:38 PM, Paul B wrote:\nOn Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Thomas Bitterman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I never said that self-defense was unjust (or just), simply that your\nmaxim implies that self-defense is unjust." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What on earth are you talking about? I said \"It is not a sensible moral\nresponse to say that injustice following other injustice is somehow more\njust\", along with \"Conquest is unjust\".\nFollowing simple logic, we can get \"conquest following other conquests is\nnot somehow more just\". Self-defense isn't an attack, and reconquest (as I\npointed out) isn't a conquest.\nYour logical proof for the above assertion is not only absent, but hard to\nimagine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we have some language problems. Here is the way I see things:\nwar = unjust\nwar + spoils = unjust (conquest)\nwar + survival = just (self-defense)\nwar + spoils + survival = just (conquest + self-defense)\nAnd I think situations can occur that fall in the fourth group. So although\nI think conquest (in a vacuum) is unjust, there are situations which justify\nit.\n\n The analogy I was after was this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- country A conquers country B\n- unrelated country C conquers country B, thus wresting it from country A\n\nIn WW2 we could have A=Germany, B=France, C=United States, whereas in the\nCrusades we could have A=Muslims, B=Holy Land, C=Christians. The big\ndifference being that the U.S. gave France back to the French, while the\nChristians looked to set up their own kingdoms. Of course, at that point\nthere were not really all that many \"natives\" to hand over the Holy Land to,\nso the parallel becomes inexact." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right. Conquest=unjust. The western allies gave Europe back to the\nEuropeans (except the parts needing \"re-education\"), and were therefore\njust. The Christians made their own kingdoms on captured land." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still find this strange. Had the Germans killed all the French, so there\nwas nobody to give France back to, would the Allies have been unjust in\ninvading it, knowing that they would have to occupy it later?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " My imagination rocks!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What you said, originally, was, \"Except maybe the crusades (I'm sure it\ndidn't seem just to those who'd been living in the Levant previous). \" To\nwhich my (summarized) reply was, \"Conquerors have no reason to feel they are\nbeing treated unjustly when they are in turn conquered\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Your imagination is poor, as is your apparent grasp of moral reasoning.\nEven the above, questionable as it is, doesn't suggest what you said about\n\"big bad Christians\" - an attempt to pass off the criticism as a stereotype.\n\nIf conquest is wrong uniformly, the morality of the conquered doesn't\nmatter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given the nature of the world it's not clear conquest is always unjust. See\nabove." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If, on the other hand, conquest (not just an attack, but seizure!) can be\njustified by anyone depending solely on the perceived (because where are you\ngoing to get the objective?) morality of the target, then you can't have a\nrights-based society. Or a decent one, for that matter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "People resort to what would otherwise be unjust acts every day based on the\n(perceived) morality of the target. That's what self-defense is. And in\nthe society of nations there is no police force to call when your neighbor\nacts badly. Nations must, to get along, follow certain rules and punish\nthose who won't. Conquest is a form of punishment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To come back to Wolfe, perhaps the Hieros have a right to drown Urth. The\nanalogy is to a causus belli - what humanity did to them in the past was so\nhorrible that they are justified in their present actions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An eye for an eye! That's advanced moral reasoning." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was good enough for Yahweh: Deuteronomy 19:21. And it is hardly unknown\nin our current justice system. Paying a fine, for example." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Or, alternatively, that at some point humanity entered into an agreement\nwith them, knowing the possible consequences, and we are still bound by that\nagreement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pure speculation. You'd think that Apheta might have mentioned that\ninstead of the rationale she _did_ give." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My copy is at home, but I seem to remember something about forging humanity\nbetween hammer and anvil. And that humanity knew this going into it.\n\nEnamel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080721145232.GA32211@craft>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T14:52:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807201351k44f0a010wb901a263eda02824@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2008.07.20 16:51:26 -0400, John Watkins scribbled 6.5K characters:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's another way to put my point. When a group of beings claim to\nbe angels, shouldn't the burden of proof be on them? Especially when\nthey concede that:\n\n1) They are artificial lifeforms created/bred by humans\n2) They are not in direct contact with God\n3) They are not eternal\n4) They appear to exercise free will\n5) They, in fact, appear to possess none of the qualities accorded to\nangels by Roman Catholic theologians (check out Thomas Aquinas on the\ntopic) except time-travel, a degree of immortality, and a mysterious\nagenda.\n\nIn fact, if I called Dan Simmons's character, the Shrike, a name\nending in \"-el\" it would be just as good a match for an angel as\nTzadkiel. And Simmons is Roman Catholic, so, by your argument, that\nfact that the Shrike spends most of the first Hyperion book butchering\npeople isn't a sign that he's not an angel. I like this new theory.\nIt puts Hyperion in a fun and entertaining new light. The Shrike\nChurch is actually doing the will of God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, actually, since you brought it up...\n\nI always understood the Shrike Church as doing the will of the Human God/FAI in the Cantos. After all, the whole sequence of events leading up to the events at the Time Tombs in _The Fall of Hyperion_ couldn't've occurred without the Shrike Church. (To cite just one of many examples, Brawne Lamia probably wouldn't've reached the Tombs alive if not the good agencies of the Shrike Church).\n\nThe Shrike itself is more ambiguous of course, but the only interpretation I've seen that makes sense is that there are 2 or 3 Time Tombs each assigning the Shrike tasks (or 2 or 3 different Shrikes); no doubt you could try to shoehorn that into an angel/demon framework, but given that Simmons constantly invokes Teilhard de Chardin's heresies, any attempt at making Cantos theology orthodox is doomed. :)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nCornflower N Dateline Z-200 chosen SURSAT Unit spies DST GII" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T17:35:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<20080721145232.GA32211@craft>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aside from the recent snippiness I think this thread had been interesting and\nproductive. A lot of ideas have come out I never would have predicted when \nI started it last month. I give credit to John Watkins; I haven't heard his approach\nbefore; sorry I impugned his motives. \n\nIt makes sense that some secular humanists might find BotNS a (did Dave Tallman\ncall it a..) cosmic horror story where evil triumphs in the end. It makes sense \nbecause many consider Christianity and the Bible to be a cosmic horror story. But\nJohn Watkins seems to be taking a different approach, finding this story a triumph \nof evil within aspects of Roman Catholic theology. (sorry not familiar with The Shrike).\n\nI have harped on ancient mythological gods and monsters as antagonists or at least \ncompetitors to modern Judeo-Christianity but I guess Gnosticism could also fall into \nthe category? It seems surely relevant that Father Inire's area is marked by teratoid \n(monstrous) symbols while the witches' and Cumaean's tower is marked with gnostic \nsymbols. Not being a religious scholar I don't know how those might relate to Kabbalism\nand Tzadkiel and Yesod and Ushas. But it makes me wonder if John Watkins is onto \nsomething or not.\n\nStill I'm not ready concede this as a horror story. Other Wolfe stories have left me with a\nfeeling of horror and dread but not this one. Have I been fooled by The Great Deceiver\ninto a toleration of genocide? Or is this really meant to be a story about a Christ-like\ncharacter who helped humanity approach heavenly divinity?\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nTime for vacation? WIN what you need- enter now!\nhttp://www.gowindowslive.com/summergiveaway/?ocid=tag_jlyhm" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370807211302y18b873e9rb236d647e8d74364@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T20:02:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:35 AM, b sharp wrote:\n(sorry not familiar with The Shrike)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then I suggest you run-don't-walk to your favorite bookseller and get copies\nof\nDan Simmons' HYPERION and THE FALL OF HYPERION, two of the finest SF\nnovels not by Wolfe in the past twenty years." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant\nand, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and\na bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T20:13:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370807211302y18b873e9rb236d647e8d74364@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:35 AM, b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(sorry not familiar with The Shrike)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then I suggest you run-don't-walk to your favorite bookseller and get copies\nof\nDan Simmons' HYPERION and THE FALL OF HYPERION, two of the finest SF\nnovels not by Wolfe in the past twenty years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless you don't like gory horror novels, which these are,\nnotwithstanding their SFnal milieu. This is not to gainsay Dan'l,\njust to warn you what you're signing up for." } ] }, { "message_id": "<0F02D15B-3F6D-41AE-800B-D2A088130A49@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T20:44:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370807211302y18b873e9rb236d647e8d74364@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And in all fairness, one should as well pick up \"Endymion\" and \"The \nRise of Endymion\" to round out the series, although the first two \nHyperion Cantos are superior.\n\nBut \"gory horror novels?\" Really? I could see pseudo-cyberpunk (the \nfirst two), homage to Chaucer and Keats, and mystic fantasy (the last \ntwo), but I don't recall there being a whole lot of gore. The \ndescriptions of the Tree of Pain were not pleasant, but were hardly \ngory, at least as I am imagining \"gore.\"\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 21, 2008, at 3:02 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:35 AM, b sharp \nwrote:\n(sorry not familiar with The Shrike).\n\nThen I suggest you run-don't-walk to your favorite bookseller and \nget copies of\nDan Simmons' HYPERION and THE FALL OF HYPERION, two of the finest SF\nnovels not by Wolfe in the past twenty years.\n\n\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a \nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand \nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-07-21T23:03:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 21 Jul 2008, b sharp wrote:\n\nAside from the recent snippiness I think this thread had been interesting and\nproductive. A lot of ideas have come out I never would have predicted when\nI started it last month. I give credit to John Watkins; I haven't heard his approach\nbefore; sorry I impugned his motives.\n\nIt makes sense that some secular humanists might find BotNS a (did Dave Tallman\ncall it a..) cosmic horror story where evil triumphs in the end.\n\nStill I'm not ready concede this as a horror story. Other Wolfe stories have left me with a\nfeeling of horror and dread but not this one. Have I been fooled by The Great Deceiver\ninto a toleration of genocide?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read it, but isn't this the thesis of _Attending Dedalus_?\n\nIf you look at _Pirate Freedom_ and _Cerberus_ and perhaps _Peace_, Wolfe \ndoes write quite extended horror stories, and the former two seem to \nimply that kind of bootstrapping via technology is a bad thing.\n\nBut Wolfe has explicitly said, and shown esp in UotNS, that Severian is an \nimitatio christi, so he is \"good\" in as far as he can be. Using Tolkien's \nterminology, Wolfe has a subcreation that isn't the best of possible \nworlds, like ours is ;). That is, the Hierogrammates and their actions \nare the best that can possibly be in this iteration, and so\nSeverian should fall in with their plans.\n\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<87zloar7je.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>", "from": { "name": "Russ Allbery", "address": "rra at stanford.edu" }, "date": "2008-07-22T02:12:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Great About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Matthew King\" writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unless you don't like gory horror novels, which these are,\nnotwithstanding their SFnal milieu. This is not to gainsay Dan'l, just\nto warn you what you're signing up for." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Er... well, I sort of see where you're getting that if I squint, but\nthere's way, way more gory stuff out there, and I don't think the Hyperion\nbooks can really be classified as horror.\n\nHeart-rending, yes. The Scholar's Tale gets me every time.\n\nSimmons is a much more straightforward writer than Wolfe, and Hyperion is\nmore of a traditional space opera." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Russ Allbery (rra at stanford.edu) " } ] } ] }