{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5045", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5045, "subject": "Severian's Sexuality", "messages": 4, "voices": 2, "first": "2008-06-07T04:47:06+00:00", "last": "2008-06-07T15:56:18+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T04:47:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Sexuality", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm in the camp which perceives Severian far more guilty of withholding\ndetails of his sexuality rather than embellishing them in his story. Heck, it \ntakes him four books of sprinkling hints to finally admit he had sex with Thecla.\nHe doesn't seem too prideful about his other \"conquests\". \n \nHe is most open and graphic in describing his sexual interactions with Dorcas but \ncan never specifically commit to print that she is his grandmother. It also seems \nto me (sorry I know this is sacriligeous to some) that Wolfe gives Severian \noccasional homoerotic and even pedophilic thoughts. Naturally these \nembarassments are also disguised but I think they are there.\n\nIn a related vein, I was recently contemplating Wolfe describing Jolenta's pubic \nhair as a \"newly hatched chick\". I always thought it seemed an odd, jarring \nmetaphor. I considered that it supports Borski's guess...showing us \nthat Jolenta's real hair color (hidden by Wolfe earlier) is pale gold, like her \ngrandmother, Dorcas, and that her real name might be Severa. The sexual \ncongress between Severian and Dorcas, Dorcas and Jolenta, Agia and Agilus \n(his cousins I think), and Severian and Cyriaca (his aunt I think) is what leads \nme to think of this as an Oedipally cursed family." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3717.72.171.0.140.1212815337.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-06-07T05:08:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Sexuality", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Jolenta's real hair color (hidden by Wolfe earlier) is pale gold,\nlike her grandmother, Dorcas, and that her real name might be Severa. The\nsexual congress between Severian and Dorcas, Dorcas and Jolenta, Agia and\nAgilus (his cousins I think), and Severian and Cyriaca (his aunt I\nthink) is\nwhat leads me to think of this as an Oedipally cursed family." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jolenta is his sister? Cyriaca is his aunt? Agia and Agilus are his cousins?\n\nIs there any evidence for any of this in the book?\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-07T14:12:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Sexuality", "in_reply_to": "<3717.72.171.0.140.1212815337.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brunian asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jolenta is his sister? Cyriaca is his aunt? Agia and Agilus are his cousins?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there any evidence for any of this in the book?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know!!! I think so. And I'm not alone in that. But maybe that's just\n because I/ we were looking for evidence. From my first readings of this series\nI felt we were meant to identify members of Severian's family. For those who don't \nperceive that challenge the evidence will seem circumstantial or even \nmanufactured. And Wolfe ain't tellin'.\n\nFew debate the conclusion that Ouen is Severian's father and Dorcas \nhis grandmother. But it is never stated openly in the book.\n\nI think maybe it was Clute who deduced that the maid who plays St.\nKatharine is Severian's mother Catherine, whose face looks like a pool of still\nwater (mirror) to Severian.\n\nAs far as I know it was Borski who figured Agia and Agilus to be his cousins. \nHe makes a good case that Dorcas died in childbirth long after Ouen was born, \ngving Severian an aunt or uncle, so why not cousins. Severian is a twin so \nperhaps his cousins are also. The incest between Agia and Agilus might connect\n them to Severian and Dorcas' family. Perhaps the sexual attraction between \nAgia and Severian also. The golden aureole Wolfe keeps giving A and A could be\na connection to Dorcas.\n\nBorski sees the prisoner who nails children's feet to the floor as Severian's aunt.\nI think Cyriaca is a much better candidate. She is the right age and height. \nShe shares a dark aureole of hair and an oval face with Catherine. They both \nescaped from the Pelerines. The Oedipal incest theme ties in nicely. Moreover, \nCyriaca is comfortable escapingto Nessus, where she can cook and sew \n(Agia and Agilus ran a used clothing shop in Nessus their mother had owned). \nAgia possesses knowledge and acoutrements (scarlet cape and misericorde) \nassociated with the Pelerines.\n\nJolenta might be the best candidate for his sister, Severa because SOMEBODY has\nto be Severa. She is the right age and height. She has hair color like Dorcas, but \nthat and her real name are suspiciously hidden when Severian first meets her. There\nis the incest tie-in. Jolenta could have been a witch who left her guild like Severian \n(though perhaps Merryn and the Cumaean would have mentioned it..or maybe not).\n\nThere is evidence for other family members as well, but where do you draw the line \nof skepticism? Wolfe leaves things in a way which allows a reader the range from \ndismissing even Dorcas as a family member through accepting the possiblily of even more\nthan I've mentioned. \n(I could hint at [grand] Father Inire but perhaps we need not have that can of worms opened ;-).\n \n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3493.72.171.0.147.1212854178.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-06-07T15:56:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Sexuality", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am extremely skeptical about all of this.\n\nIf Wolfe intended any of it, there would be better and more solid clues,\nlike the ones linking Severian, Ouen and Dorcas.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brunian asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jolenta is his sister? Cyriaca is his aunt? Agia and Agilus are his\ncousins?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there any evidence for any of this in the book?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know!!! I think so. And I'm not alone in that. But maybe that's\njust\n because I/ we were looking for evidence. From my first readings of this\nseries\nI felt we were meant to identify members of Severian's family. For those\nwho don't\nperceive that challenge the evidence will seem circumstantial or even\nmanufactured. And Wolfe ain't tellin'.\n\nFew debate the conclusion that Ouen is Severian's father and Dorcas\nhis grandmother. But it is never stated openly in the book.\n\nI think maybe it was Clute who deduced that the maid who plays St.\nKatharine is Severian's mother Catherine, whose face looks like a pool of\nstill\nwater (mirror) to Severian.\n\nAs far as I know it was Borski who figured Agia and Agilus to be his\ncousins.\nHe makes a good case that Dorcas died in childbirth long after Ouen was\nborn,\ngving Severian an aunt or uncle, so why not cousins. Severian is a twin\nso\nperhaps his cousins are also. The incest between Agia and Agilus might\nconnect\n them to Severian and Dorcas' family. Perhaps the sexual attraction\nbetween\nAgia and Severian also. The golden aureole Wolfe keeps giving A and A\ncould be\na connection to Dorcas.\n\nBorski sees the prisoner who nails children's feet to the floor as\nSeverian's aunt.\nI think Cyriaca is a much better candidate. She is the right age and\nheight.\nShe shares a dark aureole of hair and an oval face with Catherine. They\nboth\nescaped from the Pelerines. The Oedipal incest theme ties in nicely.\nMoreover,\nCyriaca is comfortable escapingto Nessus, where she can cook and sew\n(Agia and Agilus ran a used clothing shop in Nessus their mother had\nowned).\nAgia possesses knowledge and acoutrements (scarlet cape and misericorde)\nassociated with the Pelerines.\n\nJolenta might be the best candidate for his sister, Severa because\nSOMEBODY has\nto be Severa. She is the right age and height. She has hair color like\nDorcas, but\nthat and her real name are suspiciously hidden when Severian first meets\nher. There\nis the incest tie-in. Jolenta could have been a witch who left her guild\nlike Severian\n(though perhaps Merryn and the Cumaean would have mentioned it..or maybe\nnot).\n\nThere is evidence for other family members as well, but where do you draw\nthe line\nof skepticism? Wolfe leaves things in a way which allows a reader the\nrange from\ndismissing even Dorcas as a family member through accepting the possiblily\nof even more\nthan I've mentioned.\n(I could hint at [grand] Father Inire but perhaps we need not have that\ncan of worms opened ;-).\n\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nIt’s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through\nWindows Live? Messenger. Learn how.\nhttps://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }