{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5050", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5050, "subject": "Black hole timing, \"punishment\" etc", "messages": 6, "voices": 3, "first": "2008-06-11T00:39:56+00:00", "last": "2008-06-11T23:48:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20080611003957.959A6D0326@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T00:39:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Black hole timing, \"punishment\" etc", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Looking back through the scenes in UTONS following Sev's return to \nUrth from Yesod, I do get a strong impression that the sun has \nalready been in decline for some time. \n\nAs far as I can see, in Typhon's time Sev never comments that the \nsun seems brighter than in his time, that he can no longer see the \nstars by daylight etc etc etc. \n\nObviously, things are at least a little warmer: eg there are \norchards in places where fruit couldn't grow in his time. But \noverall the \"two parts in a thousand\" drop seems to have produced a \nsituation not hugely different to Sev's time in terms of general \n\"look & feel\". And I think it is clear that before the drop, the \nsituation would still have been pretty unlike ours - this drop in \nour sun's output wouldn't be enough to produce stars by daylight \netc etc.\n\nSo in terms of Typhon's words quoted by Roy, I go for a reading on \nwhich the astronomers knew that the sun had been in decline for a \nmore-or-less lengthy period, and were surprised when it suddenly \ndropped a notch instead of continuing to decline smoothly & \ngradually.\n\n(I guess that the sudden drop was caused by the Hierogrammates, to \ntrigger a cisis, and set the stage for the New Sun \"religion\" and \nthe establishment of the line of Autarchs. From quotes below, it's \nevident that Sev returns to Urth a couple of years after the drop \ncommences.)\n\nThere's nothing in this to tell us when the black hole came into \nbeing, of course, but it does leave open the possibility that it \nwas in Apu Panchau's time.\n\nSome of the events upon Sev's return to urth also serve IMO as a \ngrim satire on the myth that it had anything to do with \n\"punishment\" or was a measure taken to curb violent humanity or \nwhatever.\n\nIn Typhon's time, the notion that \"sky people\" have wounded the sun \nas a punishment has general currency, at least amongst the \nvillagers Sev meets when returns to Urth from Yesod (UOTNS XXIX):\n\nVillager: \"It snowed before the corn was ripe. This is the second \nyear .. The sky people are angry with us.\" \n\nSev's response: \"The sky people - the Hierodules and Hierachs - do \nnot hate us. It is only that they are remote from us, and they fear \nus because of the things we did before, long ago when our race was \nyoung.\"\n\nA little later, another villager says: \"All our lives we have gone \nto the high places and sent the smoke of offerings to them, yet the \nsky people are angry and send us frost. Men in Nessus say the sun \ngrows cold - ... We have gone to the high places as our fathers \ndid. We ... burned our best ram before the frost came...\"\n\nSev \"tried to tell them how the Hierodules feared us because we had \nspread through the worlds in the ancient times of Urth's glory, \nextinguishing many other races and bringing our wars everywhere.\"\n\nSome of the villagers nod as if they understand ....\n\nWell, maybe, but if Sev hadn't performed a couple of miracles \nthey'd be shooing him away as a lunatic. The notion of \"sky people\" \nfearing these pre-industrial peasants inhabiting a resource-\ndepleted world is as absurd as the idea that any kind of justice is \nserved by their suffering for the alleged crimes of distant \nforebears. \n\nIf punishment or restraint were intended, why not *before*, \n*during* or *immediately after* the allegedly violent eruption of \nancient humanity? \n\nI don't think there's a good argument that these peasants are just \nenduring the after effects of a punishment/restraint delivered long \nbefore. The old humans were not restrained; they spread through the \nworlds, and they're still there. \n\nAnd the only ones who seem to be suffering or restrained are these \npeasants. The simple, consistent, plausible reading is that this is \njust what was intended: keep Urth people down, so that when it's \ntime they will be easy to kill off." } ] }, { "message_id": "<484F993A.70805@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T09:22:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Black hole timing, \"punishment\" etc", "in_reply_to": "<20080611003957.959A6D0326@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nAs far as I can see, in Typhon's time Sev never comments that the \nsun seems brighter than in his time, that he can no longer see the \nstars by daylight etc etc etc. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The sky is cloudy on their arrival, but I notice quite a few \ndescriptions that show a brighter sun:\n\nXXVIII: \"We had come to Urth through clouds, as I have said: but the \ntender found an opening in them... hull and masts were no more than a \npinprick of golden light. At length we saw her blossom to a shining \nspeck, like the steel that falls from a file...\"\n\nSev seems extra-dense not to draw the right conclusion, but he may be \ndazed by his new connection to the White Fountain." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080611122307.9CF3FD0326@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T12:23:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Black hole timing, \"punishment\" etc", "in_reply_to": "<484F993A.70805@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 19:22:02 +1000 Dave Tallman \n wrote:\nAndrew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As far as I can see, in Typhon's time Sev never comments that \nthe \nsun seems brighter than in his time, that he can no longer see \nthe \nstars by daylight etc etc etc. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The sky is cloudy on their arrival, but I notice quite a few \ndescriptions that show a brighter sun:\n\nXXVIII: \"We had come to Urth through clouds, as I have said: but \nthe \ntender found an opening in them... hull and masts were no more \nthan a \npinprick of golden light. At length we saw her blossom to a \nshining \nspeck, like the steel that falls from a file...\"\n\nSev seems extra-dense not to draw the right conclusion, but he may " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "be \ndazed by his new connection to the White Fountain." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, that doesn;t work. You can't just point to descriptions of \nbright sunshine, or things shining in the sun; these occur in Sev's \ntime as well." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40806111119y51efb79ew392d9923ec187fa3@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T18:19:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Black hole timing, \"punishment\" etc", "in_reply_to": "<20080611122307.9CF3FD0326@mailserver10.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry, that doesn;t work. You can't just point to descriptions of\nbright sunshine, or things shining in the sun; these occur in Sev's\ntime as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All right, how about this explanation? The old man in Casdoe's house\n(Sword XV) says \"That was the brightest day I've ever seen. The sun had\nnew life to him, the way a man will when he was sick yesterday and will be\nsick tomorrow, but today he walks around and laughs so that if a stranger\nwas to come he'd think there was nothing wrong... They always say in prayers\nthat the New Sun will be too bright to look at... But that day I learned it\nwas all true...\"\n\nIf the sun's output was variable within the old man's lifetime, it might\nalso have been in Severian's. Then Sev might not find it remarkable to see a\nbright day at times. Most of the days he spent as Conciliator were cloudy,\nanyway.\n\nBy the way, have you noticed how the life of Ymar the Almost Just parallels\nthe life of Severian? He's an apprentice torturer who becomes autarch, and\nhis career is jump-started by miraculous intervention. He underwent the\ntrial, too. Could early interventions by the Hiero-dudes in Reechy's life\nhave formed the basis for a Conciliator-like legend before Sev became\nConciliator?\n\nIt's vital for Sev's history that the guild start taking the children of\nwomen who fall into their hands instead of having their own children (Shadow\nII). And Ymar apparently did this because of his own personal experience in\nseeing how Madame Prefect Prisca behaved. If someone else became autarch it\nmight not have happened. This is just one of many self-fulfilling time loops\nin UotNS. Another fun one is Juturna's saving Sev from drowning \"because you\nspoke\" (Urth XLIII)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T18:25:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Black hole timing, \"punishment\" etc", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40806111119y51efb79ew392d9923ec187fa3@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jun 11, 2008, at 1:19 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nIf the sun's output was variable within the old man's lifetime, it \nmight also have been in Severian's. Then Sev might not find it \nremarkable to see a bright day at times. Most of the days he spent \nas Conciliator were cloudy, anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note that a wildly variable sun is a feature of Jack Vance's _Dying \nEarth_, and that there's a lot to be said for the theory that _New \nSun_ is _Dying Earth_ rewritten by a better writer.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080611234837.9E56E11803C@mailserver5.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-11T23:48:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Black hole timing, \"punishment\" etc", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 04:19:38 +1000 Dave Tallman \n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All right, how about this explanation? The old man in Casdoe's \nhouse\n(Sword XV) says \"That was the brightest day I've ever seen. The \nsun had\nnew life to him, the way a man will when he was sick yesterday and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "will be\nsick tomorrow, but today he walks around and laughs so that if a \nstranger\nwas to come he'd think there was nothing wrong... They always say \nin prayers\nthat the New Sun will be too bright to look at... But that day I \nlearned it\nwas all true...\"\n\nIf the sun's output was variable within the old man's lifetime, it " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "might\nalso have been in Severian's. Then Sev might not find it \nremarkable to see a\nbright day at times. Most of the days he spent as Conciliator were " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "cloudy,\nanyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, it's possible. And it could be that Roy's interpretation is \ncorrect & the black hole event did happen in Typhon's time. I don't \nthink there's enough info given to really settle this definitively. \nIn the end, I don't think it's that important. On either reading, \nthe notion of a punishment or restraint doesn't make any sense to \nme, except as preparation for the genocide to come." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, have you noticed how the life of Ymar the Almost Just \nparallels\nthe life of Severian? He's an apprentice torturer who becomes \nautarch, and\nhis career is jump-started by miraculous intervention. He \nunderwent the\ntrial, too. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely! It's one of those things that can make you go crazy, \ntrying to figure out if Ymar and Sev are actually related somehow \nor other. " } ] } ] }