Subject: (urth) Black hole timing, "punishment" etc

From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 00:39:56 +0000

Looking back through the scenes in UTONS following Sev's return to 
Urth from Yesod, I do get a strong impression that the sun has 
already been in decline for some time. 

As far as I can see, in Typhon's time Sev never comments that the 
sun seems brighter than in his time, that he can no longer see the 
stars by daylight etc etc etc. 

Obviously, things are at least a little warmer: eg there are 
orchards in places where fruit couldn't grow in his time. But 
overall the "two parts in a thousand" drop seems to have produced a 
situation not hugely different to Sev's time in terms of general 
"look & feel". And I think it is clear that before the drop, the 
situation would still have been pretty unlike ours - this drop in 
our sun's output wouldn't be enough to produce stars by daylight 
etc etc.

So in terms of Typhon's words quoted by Roy, I go for a reading on 
which the astronomers knew that the sun had been in decline for a 
more-or-less lengthy period, and were surprised when it suddenly 
dropped a notch instead of continuing to decline smoothly & 
gradually.

(I guess that the sudden drop was caused by the Hierogrammates, to 
trigger a cisis, and set the stage for the New Sun "religion" and 
the establishment of the line of Autarchs. From quotes below, it's 
evident that Sev returns to Urth a couple of years after the drop 
commences.)

There's nothing in this to tell us when the black hole came into 
being, of course, but it does leave open the possibility that it 
was in Apu Panchau's time.

Some of the events upon Sev's return to urth also serve IMO as a 
grim satire on the myth that it had anything to do with 
"punishment" or was a measure taken to curb violent humanity or 
whatever.

In Typhon's time, the notion that "sky people" have wounded the sun 
as a punishment has general currency, at least amongst the 
villagers Sev meets when returns to Urth from Yesod (UOTNS XXIX):

Villager: "It snowed before the corn was ripe. This is the second 
year .. The sky people are angry with us." 

Sev's response: "The sky people - the Hierodules and Hierachs - do 
not hate us. It is only that they are remote from us, and they fear 
us because of the things we did before, long ago when our race was 
young."

A little later, another villager says: "All our lives we have gone 
to the high places and sent the smoke of offerings to them, yet the 
sky people are angry and send us frost. Men in Nessus say the sun 
grows cold - ... We have gone to the high places as our fathers 
did. We ... burned our best ram before the frost came..."

Sev "tried to tell them how the Hierodules feared us because we had 
spread through the worlds in the ancient times of Urth's glory, 
extinguishing many other races and bringing our wars everywhere."

Some of the villagers nod as if they understand ....

Well, maybe, but if Sev hadn't performed a couple of miracles 
they'd be shooing him away as a lunatic. The notion of "sky people" 
fearing these pre-industrial peasants inhabiting a resource-
depleted world is as absurd as the idea that any kind of justice is 
served by their suffering for the alleged crimes of distant 
forebears. 

If punishment or restraint were intended, why not *before*, 
*during* or *immediately after* the allegedly violent eruption of 
ancient humanity? 

I don't think there's a good argument that these peasants are just 
enduring the after effects of a punishment/restraint delivered long 
before. The old humans were not restrained; they spread through the 
worlds, and they're still there. 

And the only ones who seem to be suffering or restrained are these 
peasants. The simple, consistent, plausible reading is that this is 
just what was intended: keep Urth people down, so that when it's 
time they will be easy to kill off.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:22:02 +0000

> stars by daylight etc etc etc. 
The sky is cloudy on their arrival, but I notice quite a few 
descriptions that show a brighter sun:

XXVIII: "We had come to Urth through clouds, as I have said: but the 
tender found an opening in them... hull and masts were no more than a 
pinprick of golden light. At length we saw her blossom to a shining 
speck, like the steel that falls from a file..."

Sev seems extra-dense not to draw the right conclusion, but he may be 
dazed by his  new connection to the White Fountain.

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From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:23:06 +0000

On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 19:22:02 +1000 Dave Tallman 
<davetallman at msn.com> wrote:
>Sev seems extra-dense not to draw the right conclusion, but he may 

>be 

Sorry, that doesn;t work. You can't just point to descriptions of 
bright sunshine, or things shining in the sun; these occur in Sev's 
time as well.

---

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:19:38 +0000

> bright sunshine, or things shining in the sun; these occur in Sev's
All right, how about this explanation? The old man in Casdoe's house
(Sword  XV)  says "That was the brightest day I've ever seen. The sun had
new life to him, the way a man will when he was sick yesterday and will be
sick tomorrow, but today he walks around and laughs so that if a stranger
was to come he'd think there was nothing wrong... They always say in prayers
that the New Sun will be too bright to look at... But that day I learned it
was all true..."

If the sun's output was variable within the old man's lifetime, it might
also have been in Severian's. Then Sev might not find it remarkable to see a
bright day at times. Most of the days he spent as Conciliator were cloudy,
anyway.

By the way, have you noticed how the life of Ymar the Almost Just parallels
the life of Severian? He's an apprentice torturer who becomes autarch, and
his career is jump-started by miraculous intervention. He underwent the
trial, too. Could early interventions by the Hiero-dudes in Reechy's life
have formed the basis for a Conciliator-like legend before Sev became
Conciliator?

It's vital for Sev's history that the guild start taking the children of
women who fall into their hands instead of having their own children (Shadow
II). And Ymar apparently did this because of his own personal experience in
seeing how Madame Prefect Prisca behaved. If someone else became autarch it
might not have happened. This is just one of many self-fulfilling time loops
in UotNS. Another fun one is Juturna's saving Sev from drowning "because you
spoke" (Urth XLIII).
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From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:25:01 +0000

On Jun 11, 2008, at 1:19 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:

> If the sun's output was variable within the old man's lifetime, it  
> might also have been in Severian's. Then Sev might not find it  
> remarkable to see a bright day at times. Most of the days he spent  
> as Conciliator were cloudy, anyway.

Note that a wildly variable sun is a feature of Jack Vance's _Dying  
Earth_, and that there's a lot to be said for the theory that _New  
Sun_ is _Dying Earth_ rewritten by a better writer.

Adam

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From: thalassocrat at nym.hush.com <thalassocrat at nym.hush.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:48:36 +0000

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 04:19:38 +1000 Dave Tallman 
<davetallman at msn.com> wrote:

>new life to him, the way a man will when he was sick yesterday and 

>will be

>might
>bright day at times. Most of the days he spent as Conciliator were 

>cloudy,

Sure, it's possible. And it could be that Roy's interpretation is 
correct & the black hole event did happen in Typhon's time. I don't 
think there's enough info given to really settle this definitively. 
In the end, I don't think it's that important. On either reading, 
the notion of a punishment or restraint doesn't make any sense to 
me, except as preparation for the genocide to come.

>trial, too. 

Absolutely! It's one of those things that can make you go crazy, 
trying to figure out if Ymar and Sev are actually related somehow 
or other.