{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5057", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5057, "subject": "Dorcas and Fechin", "messages": 12, "voices": 6, "first": "2008-06-16T10:55:10+00:00", "last": "2008-06-19T20:20:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20080616105512.220112003E@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-16T10:55:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas and Fechin", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While trying to think up a devasting rejoinder to Roy's cogent \ncritique of my cosmic theory I took a break to wander through the \nquagmire of Sev's parentage. \n\nIf his Sev-mojo was bred into him, can we find any trace of the \nbreeding? \n\nI think Dorcas does display some signs. Her husband says that her \neyes opened as her corpse was being lowered into the water. When \nSev resurrects her, it seems he isn't doing all the work: she seems \nto rise to meet him, with his sword in one hand and clasping his \nwith the other. In Hildegrin's skiff it is as if she has brought \nforth a flower on the water, where there are no others. \n\nSo it's possible to see her as possessing some Sev-mojo, kind of \nlatent, brought out more strongly in the presence of Sev himself.\n\nMoving forward a generation, Ouen seems like a total loss as far as \nthis goes. But his cloisonne enamel locket of Dorcas reminds us \nthat making these was the trade of Dorcas' father (and brother). \n\nAnd I think there's at least a few hints that Dorcas' father was \nactually Fechin. She's a good painter (with the backdrops of Dr \nTalos' play); she is quiet and beautiful like the girlfriend of \nFechin described by Becan's father (Dorcas' mother?). \n\nAs far I can recall we are told of four Fechin works: a portrait of \nCasdoe's father, a portrait of the girlfriend, a portrait of \nRudesind and a group scene with girls decking another girl with \nflowers (conceivably, Dorcas on her wedding day?)\n\nAnd maybe five if Ouen's locket is by Fechin too. Maybe Fechin did \nother work as well, but he was definitely a portrait artist. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From that to cloisonne enamel miniatures is maybe not a huge step. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Such miniatures often use a substrate of copper. Casdoe's father \nsays that Fechin stole his family's copper pan ...\n\nAnd we have the scene quoted by Dave earlier, where Casdoe's father \nrecalls the old sick sun as briefly re-invigorated, when \"the light \nof it on Fechin's face was more than I could stand.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-16T14:23:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas and Fechin", "in_reply_to": "<20080616105512.220112003E@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like Thalassocrat's post connecting Dorcas and Fechin. Some new wrinkles I hadn't considered. \nBut if Fechin is Dorcas' father then Casdoe's (or Becan's?) father, as an age peer of Fechin, is REALLY \nold. A generation older than Dorcas' husband who appears to be dead by the end of Citadel.\n\nI'll resurrect some of my theory (as Dave Tallman remembers) that Fechin is Dorcas' husband, with an \nadditional twist:\n\n\nDORCAS' HUSBAND FECHIN FATHER INIRE \n\nalways losing material always losing material\n posessions posessions\n\n\n\nhangs out a lot in museum curator has builds museums and is \na museum a special fondness associated with the guild\n for Fechin of curators\n \n \nlives in a loft; creative and artistic creative and artistic\nmarried into an\nartsy family\n\n\nis short and bent is short and bent\n\n\n resembles a monkey resembles a monkey\n\n\nattracted to very attracted to very \nyoung girls young girls\n\n\nFor me the shared constellation of traits ties these three characters together more than any two of them\ncan be tied together. especially if the blanks in the chart are filled in. Perhaps all three are the same \nperson. As the old Autarch fills multiple roles in Urth society, long lived Father Inire fills even more roles. \nAnd the alien element in Severian's family tree explains for me the Oedipal problem, the Zeus references, \nallusions to shapeshifters on Urth, and even all the different monkeys who seem to be peeking in on \nSeverian during his adventures. \n\n(is Thecla's heraldry book with enameled illustrations meant to be connected to cloisonne?)\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-06-16T14:59:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas and Fechin", "in_reply_to": "<20080616105512.220112003E@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com writes: \n\na group scene with girls decking another girl with" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "flowers (conceivably, Dorcas on her wedding day?) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Refreence to Botticelli's **Primavera**???? \n\n - hartshorn \n\n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080616153913.73AF32003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-16T15:39:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas and Fechin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 00:23:30 +1000 b sharp \n wrote:\nI like Thalassocrat's post connecting Dorcas and Fechin. Some new \nwrinkles I hadn't considered. \nBut if Fechin is Dorcas' father then Casdoe's (or Becan's?) \nfather, as an age peer of Fechin, is REALLY \nold. A generation older than Dorcas' husband who appears to be \ndead by the end of Citadel.\n\nI'll resurrect some of my theory (as Dave Tallman remembers) that \nFechin is Dorcas' husband ... [snip for formatting]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neither the old boatman nor Fechin can hang on to stuff ... except \n(according to Casdoe's f-in-law) Fechin always hang on to his art. \nI don't think Fechin would have pawned the locket with Dorcas' \npicure.\n\nI think the ages work OK. We know Rudesind is 80+ at the end of \nCitadel - at which time he had been a boy \"70 years ago\". Fechin \nwas presumably older than him - maybe not by much; say he was born \n85+ years ago. \n\nDorcas seems to have been born about 55-60 years before the start \nof BOTNS (say Sev is about 18, Ouen about 40, and that Dorcas had \nOuen when she was about 18). So say 25-30 years after Fechin. It's \nnot an impossible age difference for them to have been husband and \nwife, but ceratinly she couldn't have been the girlfriend described \nby Casdoe's father, and it's more consistent with her being \nFechin's daughter. \n\nThis does make Casdoe's father pretty old, but then I think he is \nthe most decrepit & senile old man appearing in BOTNS; and it makes \nmore sense for him to be in his 80's, than it does for the boatman." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40806160924w46ed92c3t20d3c0dedbb8a3cb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-16T16:24:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas and Fechin", "in_reply_to": "<20080616153913.73AF32003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nIf his Sev-mojo was bred into him, can we find any trace of the\nbreeding?\n\nI think Dorcas does display some signs. Her husband says that her\neyes opened as her corpse was being lowered into the water. When\nSev resurrects her, it seems he isn't doing all the work: she seems\nto rise to meet him, with his sword in one hand and clasping his\nwith the other. In Hildegrin's skiff it is as if she has brought\nforth a flower on the water, where there are no others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Dorcas was put into the time-statis water alive (possibly because\nshe fell into a coma and was thought dead). Her dream in Claw XXII seems to\nbe not about her initial burial but about being moved closer to shore.\n(There's no doubt in my mind that she was moved so that Sev would find her.)\nIn the dream her eyes were open before she hit the water. She may have been\nparalyzed from the lingering effects of the previous \"burial.\" Her husband,\nold in the dream, seems to be chant-caught: \"I know that he has never known\nthat I was there at all.\" He denied that he once pulled her up and then put\nher back (in Shadow XXII), but it turns out to be ironically true. Sev's\npresence revived her, but this may not be a resurrection like the others.\n\nThe water hyacinth looks like a great clue that Dorcas has miraculous\npowers. Incidentally, most water hyacinths are purple, and a purple hyacinth\nmeans \"I'm sorry\" in the language of flowers. Is this another clue to a dark\nsecret in her past?\n\nAnother possible \"miracle\" by Dorcas is the failure of Jolenta's blood to\nclot in Claw XXVIII. I believe the initial wound was a suicide attempt by\nJolenta, probably by using Terminus Est. Sev would have noticed a trace of\nblood the next time he cleaned his sword, except that all traces were washed\naway when it was doused by the undine. Jolenta was sleeping (or pretending\nto sleep) on her side. That way she could keep the wound pressed to the sand\nand Sev might not notice when he checked her. Otherwise, there doesn't seem\nto be enough time for her to lose a lot of blood. The Cumaean repeatedly\nsaid that Jolenta didn't want to live in Claw XXX.\n\nDorcas screamed when she saw Jolenta bleeding, but she may have decided to\nassist her former lover's suicide by preventing clotting. She was the one\nwho came up with the explanation of blood bats. There's another possible\nexplanation, though. Patients are often given anti-coagulants after major\nsurgery to prevent blood clots. Dr. Talos operated on Jolenta to augment her\nbody with wires.\n\nAnd I think there's at least a few hints that Dorcas' father was" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "actually Fechin. She's a good painter (with the backdrops of Dr\nTalos' play); she is quiet and beautiful like the girlfriend of\nFechin described by Becan's father (Dorcas' mother?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My idea was that Dorcas herself was Fechin's girlfriend, even though it\nmeans her powers, if any, must be from another source. It would be a better\nage fit. Possibly she became pregnant with Ouen by him and was married off\nquickly to someone else. This fits her other dream where shopkeepers look\ndown on her in Claw XXII. (I read b sharp's matching of Fechin with the\nhusband also, but it doesn't seem compelling to me. There's no mention that\nthe old man looks monkey-like. Would a famous artist's wife be a mere\nshopkeeper?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-16T19:25:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas and Fechin", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40806160924w46ed92c3t20d3c0dedbb8a3cb@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a few responsive blurbs:\n\nDave Tallman, to clarify, I don't see Urth as being the same as Earth nor Jesus\nappearing in Severian's universe, Briah. That universal history is similar to ours \nbut not identical. Thus they have St. Katharine to our St. Catherine. Roses pop \nup on St. Katharine's wheel, not St. Catherine's. Moreover, given Father Inire's \nprobably close association with the Torturer's Guild through the ages, couldn't that \nstory be an import? I don't remember shewbread mentioned in the BotNS text but \nit doesn't necessitate Jesus, nor do altars or candles. I'm not saying my view of a \nJesus-less Urth is correct, only that it is defensible.\n\nDan'l Oakes, I always thought the \"Theoanthropos\" as spoken by Agia referred to \nThe Concilliator. Isn't he a God-Man and his purpose to reconcile the gods and men?\nThe \"Theoanthropos\" as spoken by Marie is probably Jesus but I find it clear that the\nJungle Hut does not exist in the universe of Briah. The time portals are shown to \nwork by having the ground floors in the present and the upper floors in the future. \nI see the elevation of the Jungle Hut, the airplane, the Bible reference etc. marking \nit as existing in Briah's future ...i.e. our own universe...probably Yesod.\n\n\nThalassocrat if, as I'm suggesting, these characters are all one immortal, shape \nshifting alien then the time frames and lifespans cease to have much meaning. \nRegarding Rudesind, as an old, bent, monkey-like, art loving master of the mysteries \nof the Secret House, I tend to throw him into the Inire mix. [he calls himself Inire \nbut everyone else calls him Father Inire...why?). I once discussed why Fechin's \nportrait of Rudesind might be a self-portrait \n( http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2006-May/006350.html ). And I can make\nsimilar arguments for Rudesind being Inire in his final scene in Citadel though I doubt \nanyone is interested. [How does Rudesind get that note?] It does rely on the Inire \ncharacter referring to himself in third person quite often and some Talos-like confusion\nbetween servant and master.\n\nDave Tallman, that's an interesting thought about Dorcas. I'll note that Roy C. Lackey\nonce developed an elaborate theory regarding the hidden messages to be found in \nDorcas' choices of flowers. But a correspondence with Gene Wolfe let him know the \nflower choices were purely aethetic. Also, I had thought Jolenta had tried to commit \nsuicide at first also. But I want to note (on Earth, anyway) the saliva of vampire bats \ncontains a very potent anti-coagulant called desmoteplase or DSPA. Dorcas surely has \nsome dark secrets involving transgressions with family members that she feels bad \nabout. Perhaps she even senses, at some level, she is currently being sexual with her\ngrandchild or grandchildren. Perhaps their whole family feels bad about that peculiar sin\nthey tend to commit." } ] }, { "message_id": "<485895A1.50105@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-18T04:57:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas and Fechin (and Catherine)", "in_reply_to": "<20080616105512.220112003E@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nIf his Sev-mojo was bred into him, can we find any trace of the \nbreeding? \n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We've looked at Dorcas, but we shouldn't skip the next generation. \nCatherine seems to have considerable powers herself. She appears the \nsame year after year at the Feast of St. Katharine, which suggests \ntime-travel abilities.\n\nHer beheading is first explained by Sev as a fake, but there are \ndiscrepancies. Sev's sword \"met resistance\" and her head seemed to be \nreally gone (Shadow XI). Later he says \"How could I refuse the Increate \nwhat I had willingly given the Autarch when I struck off Katharine's \nhead?\" (Sword XXXI). That doesn't sound like he was just participating \nin a fake ceremony.\n\nCatherine was probably the third \"witch\" who hid when Sev appeared in \nClaw XXX, and left the Pelerine robe in Claw XXXI when she and the \nothers fled. I believe she hid so she wouldn't be recognized. The three \nwitches are like the weird (wyrd) sisters of MacBeth, the three fates. \nThey are the Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone. The Maiden is Merryn, \nthe Crone is the Cumaean, so that leaves the Mother (Sev's mother, \nCatherine). She must have had power to assist in the time-warping spell.\n\nMost Pelerines are exultants or armigettes, according to Ava (Citadel \nX). Catherine was tall (Shadow XI). so she was probably an exultant. \nSev's memory as Thecla in Claw XXVII shows three exultant women with \nglowing eyes (and the ability to command small bats: \"a heart-shaped \npatch beside the lips of the nearest spread web-fingered wings,\" which \nmay throw more light on Jolenta's death). I wonder if these are the eyes \nof the Pelerines that Cyriaca never had but hoped she might get when she \ntook her vows (Sword V)?\n\nI don't think Catherine is the same person as the Holy Domnicellae of \nShadow XVIII. Sev seems to have seen her face despite her hood, because \nhe says \"There was much beauty in her, but it was not the beauty of \nwomen who quench desire.\" The Domnicellae is another candidate for the \nthird witch at the Stone Town ceremony, but I favor Catherine. I don't \nknow why the head of the Pelerine order would participate in necromancy, \nbut a run-away monial who worked for the torturers might assist her \nwitch daughter, Merryn." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001801c8d170$9ffc17e0$52cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-18T18:24:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas and Fechin (and Catherine)", "in_reply_to": "<485895A1.50105@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nCatherine was probably the third \"witch\" who hid when Sev appeared in\nClaw XXX, and left the Pelerine robe in Claw XXXI when she and the\nothers fled. I believe she hid so she wouldn't be recognized. [snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev saw only three figures on the roof. The third figure who hid, and who\nwas larger than the other two, was Hildegrin.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-18T19:59:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas and Fechin (and Catherine)‏", "in_reply_to": "<001801c8d170$9ffc17e0$52cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave Tallman, keep the ideas coming. I think some of your veins of thought are very fruitful! " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From what I see, Catherine (and Severian and Jolenta) are tall but shorter than exultants, \nmarking them as belonging to the armiger class. Only the lower classes sometimes think Severian\nmight be an exultant, due to his height. But I do see many clues that suggest hidden connections \nbetween witches, Pelerines and exultants, especially the Autarch's inner circle of concubines. We have \nthe red garb found in the Stone Town, the Cumaean's artificial beautification skills, the artificial \nbeautification of exultant women, Merryn's ageless face, the hints of the powers of the Pelerines, the \nChatelaine Somebody's hairless rats and the Cumaean's creatures contained in an artificial environment, \netc. etc. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always assumed the old Autarch's explanation that kaibits were clones of exultant women used, \nthrough blood exchange, to prolong beauty to be Wolfe's attempt to give us one clear clue to a recurring \nmystery in this series. Both Catherine and Cyriaca (whom I suspect to be sisters), though armigettes \nhave some means of prolonging their youthful appearance.\n\nMy impression is that Wolfe is a bit horrified by the potential of biological science more than physical \nscience. The mysterious machinery in Master Ash's time travel house is not nearly as scary and \nforboding as the biological science equipment found in the witches' tower, Typhon's round building and \nBaldanders' Castle. I think this fear of stuff like human cloning (and advanced plastic surgery) produced \nFifth Head of Cerberus and some of the subtext of this story also.\n\nI've thought for a while that the issue of identity crisis from cloning found in 5HoC is embedded in BotNS.\nThecla's dream of a room full of identical, tall, well dressed women seemed to tie into that. Why are \nexultants the newest group of people on earth and why was there \"nothing like them\" in the old days? \nBut I always wondered what in the world that heart-shaped patch on the cheek of one of the women meant.\nIt could make the connection to Thea's heart-shaped face. Why are they \"half-sisters\" anyway? But I never \nthought of the patch being a blood bat. But \"web-fingered wings\" just might be saying that.\n\nSeverian has his bloodstream linked to the boy Mamas by the old leech. It isn't explained how this is done but\nI always assumed the kaibit-exultant blood sharing must be done in similar fashion. Is there any way a blood\nbat could be involved? Seems implausible; but maybe. Perhaps the blood bat patch is meant to be symbolic \nand that dream and others are meant to symbolically represent the cloning and blood sharing and alien \nadmixture that produces Thecla and her ilk.\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i’m Talkathon.\nhttp://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving" } ] }, { "message_id": "<485A0196.1090506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-19T06:49:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Dorcas and Fechin (and Catherine)", "in_reply_to": "<001801c8d170$9ffc17e0$52cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nSev saw only three figures on the roof. The third figure who hid, and who\nwas larger than the other two, was Hildegrin.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev only saw three figures, and Hildegrin was the only one who came out \nof hiding, but the evidence of the Pelerine cloak suggests someone else \nwas there that night. I don't think it was left by an earlier necromancy \nattempt by the Pelerines, as Sev seems to think. He touched it as soon \nas he started to get up (Claw XXXI). The location coincidence is too \ngreat. The person wearing it probably rushed out to help Sev, and \nperished like Hildegrin when she got too close.\n\nThat would explain a curious omission in Citadel. After speaking to Ouen \nand learning of Catherine, Sev never tells us that he followed up to see \nif the Katharine of the elevation ceremony was his mother. He might have \nomitted this if he didn't want to admit to himself and to us that he \ncaused his mother's death.\n\nI found another bit of evidence that I don't think has been mentioned \nabout Merryn as Sev's sister. In Citadel IV, Sev has a fever dream and \nin it Merryn says, \"Ah, sister, you have come at last.\" (Sev is Thecla \nat the time)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<485A08A2.1080406@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-19T07:20:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth)Dorcas and Fechin (and Catherine)‏", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nDave Tallman, keep the ideas coming. I think some of your veins of thought are very fruitful! \n/From what I see, Catherine (and Severian and Jolenta) are tall but shorter than exultants, \n/marking them as belonging to the armiger class. Only the lower classes sometimes think Severian\nmight be an exultant, due to his height. But I do see many clues that suggest hidden connections \nbetween witches, Pelerines and exultants, especially the Autarch's inner circle of concubines. We have \nthe red garb found in the Stone Town, the Cumaean's artificial beautification skills, the artificial \nbeautification of exultant women, Merryn's ageless face, the hints of the powers of the Pelerines, the \nChatelaine Somebody's hairless rats and the Cumaean's creatures contained in an artificial environment, \netc. etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Shadow XI, it says, \"She was tall and slender, though not so tall nor \nso slender as Thecla, dark of complexion, dark of eye, raven of hair.\" I \ndon't see that being shorter than Thecla excludes her from the \nexultants; there must be some height variation in that class.\n\nMy take on the exultant/armiger distinction is that exultants are \ndescendants of space colonist stock, and their families probably had \npower under Typhon. That explains their intrigues against the new source \nof power, the autarchy. The armigers are probably descendants of \nhigh-ranking military officers of Urth stock. I don't remember the text \nsaying they have an intermediate height between exultants and commoners.\n\nThe exultants probably have superior genetic engineering and/or alien \nblood. The legend of the Boy Called Frog shows that those with off-world \nblood are believed to have special powers. They also use high-tech means \nfor longevity and beautification, as you mentioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My impression is that Wolfe is a bit horrified by the potential of biological science more than physical \nscience. The mysterious machinery in Master Ash's time travel house is not nearly as scary and \nforboding as the biological science equipment found in the witches' tower, Typhon's round building and \nBaldanders' Castle. I think this fear of stuff like human cloning (and advanced plastic surgery) produced \nFifth Head of Cerberus and some of the subtext of this story also.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At least he is horrified by such science in the hands of evil people \nlike Typhon and Baldanders, who seem to practice brutal vivisection on \nhumans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian has his bloodstream linked to the boy Mamas by the old leech. It isn't explained how this is done but\nI always assumed the kaibit-exultant blood sharing must be done in similar fashion. Is there any way a blood\nbat could be involved? Seems implausible; but maybe. Perhaps the blood bat patch is meant to be symbolic \nand that dream and others are meant to symbolically represent the cloning and blood sharing and alien \nadmixture that produces Thecla and her ilk.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anti-coagulants extracted from the saliva of blood-bats would be useful \nin blood-sharing, but that would be a crude way of getting it. The \nmemory of the women may not be a dream, at least not totally. Sev says \n\"I sat up, uncertain of the point at which memory had become dream.\" \n(Claw XXVII)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<485ABF78.2010208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-19T20:20:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth)Dorcas and Fechin (and Catherine)?", "in_reply_to": "<485A08A2.1080406@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nIn Shadow XI, it says, \"She was tall and slender, though not so tall nor \nso slender as Thecla, dark of complexion, dark of eye, raven of hair.\" I \ndon't see that being shorter than Thecla excludes her from the \nexultants; there must be some height variation in that class.\n\nMy take on the exultant/armiger distinction is that exultants are \ndescendants of space colonist stock, and their families probably had \npower under Typhon. That explains their intrigues against the new source \nof power, the autarchy. The armigers are probably descendants of \nhigh-ranking military officers of Urth stock. I don't remember the text \nsaying they have an intermediate height between exultants and commoners." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's been pretty well established that higher classes are \nliterally heads above those below them, as average heights go. However, \nthe exultants seem to do this artificially by creating a companion clone \n(\"khaibit\") of each exultant and using the clone as a source of \nadditional growth hormone (\"royal jelly\") to achieve an extra several \ninches of height. Thus exultant's aren't really of greater stature than \narmigers, and their bastards and other cast-offs will be equal in height \nas armigers. This also makes them pretenders to nobility who literally \nmust put others down to raise themselves up." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }