size of erebus, et al.

The Urth list — 7 messages, 5 voices, 18 Jun 2008
https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5062

Marc Aramini18 Jun 2008, 17:46
I always thought the retconned story of Theseus and the novascaputs with the enormous sea ship was indicative of the size of the monsters like abaia. the student's creation must face that enormous sea creature that dyes the ship. Those stories always seemed to reflect both thematically and factually to Severian's main narative.
b sharp19 Jun 2008, 13:32

↳ follows, by subject match Marc Aramini

2 quoted lines · 1–2 deep
marc aramini says:
I always thought the retconned story of Theseus and the novascaputs with the enormous sea ship was indicative of the size of the monsters like abaia. the student's creation must face that enormous sea creature that dyes the ship. Those stories always seemed to reflect both thematically and factually to Severian 's main narative.
Though it is a mangled legend, I agree, keeping in mind that it is a naviscaput= ship head monster, the big ship being only the tip of the "iceberg". I always assumed the rest of his body extended down to the ocean floor, his "feet" roiling the benthos as he walked. Seems plausible his entire size could be somewhat akin to a mountain's. I also find numerous hints in the text that the coming of the new sun will, in fact, rid Urth/Ushas of such monstrosities/megatherians. I just found another subtle one during a recent re-reading: In his conversation with Master Ash, Severian is made to understand that the Ascians are currently engaged in a desperate, frantic attempt to gain a quick military advantage. The reason for the desperate need is left sounding important but unexplained. I think it may be that Erebus and Abaia are somehow aware that the autarchy is about to be passed on to a likely New Sun bringer and they hope to stop it. _________________________________________________________________
Jeff Wilson19 Jun 2008, 20:45

↳ in reply to b sharp

7 quoted lines · 1–3 deep
b sharp wrote:
marc aramini says:
I always thought the retconned story of Theseus and the novascaputs with the enormous sea ship was indicative of the size of the monsters like abaia. the student's creation must face that enormous sea creature that dyes the ship. Those stories always seemed to reflect both thematically and factually to Severian 's main narative.
Though it is a mangled legend, I agree, keeping in mind that it is a naviscaput= ship head monster, the big ship being only the tip of the "iceberg". I always assumed the rest of his body extended down to the ocean floor, his "feet" roiling the benthos as he walked. Seems plausible his entire size could be somewhat akin to a mountain's.
The giant keeps to channels on the island most of the time, doesn't he? I think he owes more to the other ur-story, the Battle of Hampton Roads, where the Monitor's considerable but not mountainous bulk remains at or below the waterline with only a 10 x 20 foot turret exposed.
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson >
b sharp20 Jun 2008, 14:02

↳ follows, by subject match Jeff Wilson

Jeff Wilson says:
1 quoted line
The giant keeps to channels on the island most of the time, doesn't he? I think he owes more to the other ur-story, the Battle of Hampton Roads, where the Monitor's considerable but not mountainous bulk remains at or below the waterline with only a 10 x 20 foot turret exposed.
Yes, me calling the channels "ocean" could be a notable error since we are discussing size. Battle of Hampton Roads! I hadn't heard the Monitor and Merrimac battle called that before; thanks! Anyway, the Naviscaput has a fingertip so I extrapolate that he has a somewhat human body, not just a boat shape. However, I think all debates on the "true" size of megatherians might be moot. I consider them to be in some way the peers of Tzadkiel: god-like creatures. And I think the scene where Tzadkiel pinches off a finger to create a human sized agent is very important. We see a fairy-sized Tzadkiel later. Could the giant Tzadkiel that Severian talks to be a pinched off version also? How big is the Tzadkiel Severian sees in the old Autarch's book? Planet-sized? Sun sized? Galaxy-sized? That may seem ridiculous but the Hierogrammates are capable of creating as many suns as they deem necessary; they might be very very big. Anyway, I think the megatherians might able to create smaller agents of themselves in similar fashion, enabling them to mate with Juturna and her sisters or interact directly with humans, take other shapes, etc. _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i’m Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving
Jeff Wilson20 Jun 2008, 14:42

↳ in reply to b sharp

5 quoted lines · 1–2 deep
b sharp wrote: Jeff Wilson says:
The giant keeps to channels on the island most of the time, doesn't he? I think he owes more to the other ur-story, the Battle of Hampton Roads, where the Monitor's considerable but not mountainous bulk remains at or below the waterline with only a 10 x 20 foot turret exposed.
Yes, me calling the channels "ocean" could be a notable error since we are discussing size. Battle of Hampton Roads! I hadn't heard the Monitor and Merrimac battle called that before; thanks! Anyway, the Naviscaput has a fingertip so I extrapolate that he has a somewhat human body, not just a boat shape.
You're welcome. It confused me for the longest time how there could be a naval battle at a place called Hampton Roads, but I guess I 'm not the only one and perhaps it is reflected in the network of canals, watery "roads" that allow the naviscaput to be on the island but still in the water.
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson >
Dave Lebling21 Jun 2008, 00:23

↳ in reply to b sharp

Just as Tzadkiel is like an angel, Abaia and the other megatherians are like devils; as fallen "angels" is it surprising that they would have many of the same capabilities and similar appearance? -- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha
17 quoted lines · 1–2 deep
b sharp wrote: Jeff Wilson says:
The giant keeps to channels on the island most of the time, doesn't he? I think he owes more to the other ur-story, the Battle of Hampton Roads, where the Monitor's considerable but not mountainous bulk remains at or below the waterline with only a 10 x 20 foot turret exposed.
Yes, me calling the channels "ocean" could be a notable error since we are discussing size. Battle of Hampton Roads! I hadn't heard the Monitor and Merrimac battle called that before; thanks! Anyway, the Naviscaput has a fingertip so I extrapolate that he has a somewhat human body, not just a boat shape. However, I think all debates on the "true" size of megatherians might be moot. I consider them to be in some way the peers of Tzadkiel: god-like creatures. And I think the scene where Tzadkiel pinches off a finger to create a human sized agent is very important. We see a fairy-sized Tzadkiel later. Could the giant Tzadkiel that Severian talks to be a pinched off version also? How big is the Tzadkiel Severian sees in the old Autarch's book? Planet-sized? Sun sized? Galaxy-sized? That may seem ridiculous but the Hierogrammates are capable of creating as many suns as they deem necessary; they might be very very big. Anyway, I think the megatherians might able to create smaller agents of themselves in similar fashion, enabling them to mate with Juturna and her sisters or interact directly with humans, take other shapes, etc. _________________________________________________________________ The other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i’m Talkathon. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving _______________________________________________
Stanisław Bocian21 Jun 2008, 11:11

↳ in reply to Dave Lebling

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