{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5066", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5066, "subject": "Sev's silence about Catherine", "messages": 26, "voices": 9, "first": "2008-06-21T12:56:03+00:00", "last": "2008-06-30T01:50:39+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20080621125603.DE96C15803F@mailserver6.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-21T12:56:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This has probably been pointed out multiple times, but surely by \nthe end of UOTNS Sev knows his mother's story. We're told \nexplicitly that Gurloes and Palaemon must know the parentage of the \napprentices (Shadow VII). I can't imagine that Sev would not have \ngotten the story from Palaemon in his meeting with him at the end \nof Citadel. Or if not from Palaemon, surely from Ouen.\n\nBut Sev doesn't want to tell us, for some reason. \n\nSimilarly, he doesn't record questioning Ouen about Catherine in \ndetail. Maybe this is because he'd had it all from Palaemon \nalready, or maybe he's once again just not telling us.\n\nI think Sev's silence has to mean something, but I don't know what. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<485D5943.1080605@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-21T19:40:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<20080621125603.DE96C15803F@mailserver6.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nThis has probably been pointed out multiple times, but surely by \nthe end of UOTNS Sev knows his mother's story. We're told \nexplicitly that Gurloes and Palaemon must know the parentage of the \napprentices (Shadow VII). I can't imagine that Sev would not have \ngotten the story from Palaemon in his meeting with him at the end \nof Citadel. Or if not from Palaemon, surely from Ouen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we sure Sev didn't decide to leave well enough alone? He heard from \nOuen that a runaway Pelerine named Catherine was very possibly his \nmother. He was also convinced that his mother was tortured to death, \n\"Soon she would be led away to scream in the Apparatus or gasp in \nAllowin's necklace,\" he says in Claw XXVII. If he made further inquiries \nhe would be sure to find out exactly how she died, and he might have \npreferred not to know. He may never have connected Catherine with the \nKatharine of the elevation ceremony, so the possibility that she might \nstill be alive wouldn't occur to him." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-22T23:13:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<485D5943.1080605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regarding Sev's mother, Thalassocrat writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This has probably been pointed out multiple times, but surely by \nthe end of UOTNS Sev knows his mother's story. (snip)\nBut Sev doesn't want to tell us, for some reason. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Similarly, he doesn't record questioning Ouen about Catherine in \ndetail. Maybe this is because he'd had it all from Palaemon \nalready, or maybe he's once again just not telling us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Sev's silence has to mean something, but I don't know what." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I have an inkling of the meaning but I am confounded by the lack \nof real evidence. I see a missing piece in a jigsaw puzzle and Catherine is\na piece which should fit but just doesn't quite.\n\nI notice that Severian gives us enough evidence to figure out that he has\nhad sex with his grandmother but he doesn't ever actually confess the fact\nto us, his most trusted confidants. Similarly Agilus hints but doesn't quite \nconfess that he and his sister have had sex. There are other vague hints\nabout sexuality between other family members and I'm pretty sure we are\nmeant both to understand that all this incest happens and that Severian is \ncovering it up.\n\nSo it would make sense if Severian had had sex with Catherine and then hid the\nfact from us but with some hints. It might make some perverse sense for new \njourneyman torturers to be initiated intothe guild by having sex with their patroness.\nBut on the night of his elevation, Severian is so drunk he doesn't remember much\nbut mentions smelling perfume in his new room. He says it is Thecla's perfume and \nhe says it must have been from the false Thecla. Would Wolfe really have Severian\nlie about that and expect us to figure out the truth about his bed partner that night?\nSeems excessively misleading.\n\nI find one VERY indirect clue of sexuality between Severian and Catherine. \nIt takes some convoluted explaining. I credit Robert Borski for noting that in UotNS, \nwhen Severian is cruising through the Secret House, he feels some deja vu when he\nlooks down upon the Path Of Air from a loggia and sees a woman with \"raven-dark\" \nhair being escorted by soldiers. This woman's olive skin and \"raven\" hair is a very \ngood match for Catherine. Her oval face suggests Pelerines. Only two characters \n(that I know of) have \"dark\" hair and a \"pale\" gown: this one and the corpse with \na livid face (Allowin's necklace?) Hildegrin digs up from the grave yard in the very \nfirst chapter. \n\nThis woman's face has something in it that \"tore at my heart\" says Severian. This phrase \nclearly invokes Valeria, who lives off the Atrium of Time which is definitely a time portal\nlike Master Ash's house. So perhaps this woman is Severian's mother, Catherine, who \nsomehow got to the future but is being escorted back to her proper time. \n\nBut, Catherine can't be the corpse in the pale gown because he sees Catherine later. I'd \nhate to think Catherine (whom Severian says he never sees after his elevation) time \ntravels ahead, then back and then is tortured to death before Severian's elevation. \nAnother explanation is that there are two of them, clones in a kaibit relationship \n(explaining why Catherine's appearance doesn't change through the years). If this is \nthe case I think the kaibit's name is Carina. I don't know why she might have been \ntortured; perhaps for running away too many times?\n\nIn Eschatology and Genesis, we see the reverse of Severian's scene in the loggia, from the \nContessa Carina's (form of Catherine) point of view. She is being escorted by soldiers on the\nRoad of Air and sees a man who looks like Severian looking down upon her. And we know the\nContessa sexually desires Meschia, played by Severian. Is it incest if you have sex with your \nmother's clone? \n\nAnyway, THAT, I know is an incredibly indirect sexual reference between Severian and his mother\nbut its all I've got. This story leaves me with only a couple choices, all bad: Either I assume I (and\nall other readers) are just too stupid to clearly figure out what Wolfe's intentions were with Severian's\nfamily or he has strewn his stories with red herring clues and meaningless jabber to give the illusion of \ndepth. I wish neither was true.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA2249201600423@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2008-06-23T17:06:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "C/Katherine's identity has always puzzled me - the same name just can't\nbe a coincidence. I guess what I find weird is that Catherine is Sev's\nmother (if I remember correctly), but the feast/ritual of Katherine has\nbeen going on for generations. I'm inclined to identify them as the\nsame woman in some sense . . . but how? The only thing I can think of\nis how Typhon, when he first meets Severian, speaks of a rabble-rousing\ntroublemaker from the past - which is, of course, Severian himself, when\nhe comes back as the new Sun. Is it possible that something similar is\nhappening with Katherine? That Severian somehow starts the ritual which\nhe later participates in as a young man? I'm grasping at straws here .\n. .\n\n-------------------------\nInvite the next generation of students to consider Briercrest College and Seminary. Visit www.briercrest.ca/refer. \n-------------------------\nThis e-mail may contain confidential and privileged proprietary material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive the information from the recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4860AE4F.2090804@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-24T08:20:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nI find one VERY indirect clue of sexuality between Severian and Catherine. \nIt takes some convoluted explaining. I credit Robert Borski for noting that in UotNS, \nwhen Severian is cruising through the Secret House, he feels some deja vu when he\nlooks down upon the Path Of Air from a loggia and sees a woman with \"raven-dark\" \nhair being escorted by soldiers. This woman's olive skin and \"raven\" hair is a very \ngood match for Catherine. Her oval face suggests Pelerines. Only two characters \n(that I know of) have \"dark\" hair and a \"pale\" gown: this one and the corpse with \na livid face (Allowin's necklace?) Hildegrin digs up from the grave yard in the very \nfirst chapter. \n\nThis woman's face has something in it that \"tore at my heart\" says Severian. This phrase \nclearly invokes Valeria, who lives off the Atrium of Time which is definitely a time portal\nlike Master Ash's house. So perhaps this woman is Severian's mother, Catherine, who \nsomehow got to the future but is being escorted back to her proper time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It might help to revive another Robert Borski theory: that Catherine was \nValeria's daughter by her second husband. There's another clue I haven't \nseen mentioned. In Chapter IX Sev sees a resemblance between the khabits \n\"Chatelaine Barbea\" and \"Chatelaine Gracia.\" He says:\n\n\"There was something in the eyes of both women, in the expression of \ntheir mouths, their carriage and the fluidity of their gestures, that \nwas one. It recalled something I had seen elsewhere (I could not \nremember where), and yet it was new, and I felt somehow that the other \nthing, that which I had known earlier, was to be preferred.\"\n\nI take this to mean that he had noticed a strong resemblance between two \nother women he had met. They could have been Thecla and Thea, but that \nwould be too obvious. I think was Valeria and \"Katharine.\"\n\nThe woman being escorted was probably of high rank (a Contessa, as in \nthe play), which is reasonable for the daughter of the Autarch. She \nmight have used Father Inre's mirrors or other House Absolute features \nto escape from the flood into the past. As an unprotected woman in that \ntime the Pelerines might have looked like a good option at first. If \nthey didn't suit her, she might escape them and fall in with Ouen, and \nso on.\n\nIf Sev in fact slept with his other grandmother, Valeria, then he had \ntwo excellent reasons for silence about Catherine. The first was to \navoid a scandal. It was one thing to admit about Dorcas; he had broken \nup with her. But Valeria was still his wife at the time he wrote \"The \nBook of the New Sun.\" But even more critical for him was the fact that \nCatherine wasn't born yet. To write about her might jeopardize her \nexistence, and therefore his own.\n\nOne problem with this theory is that Sev said the woman on the Path of \nAir had a face that was \"strange to me\" and that \"She was as lovely and \nunknown at that final glimpse as at the first.\" Perhaps the \"Katharine\" \nmaid was a khabit (or series of khabits) provided for the real \nCatherine. Another problem is that the existence of the first Severian \nshouldn't depend on a time loop.\n\nI saw in some earlier messages that people are concerned that Talos' \nplay mentioned the Contessa sighting and the appearance of Baldanders \nthat last day of the autarchy. That was \"out of the loop\" of the time \ntrip where Sev became the Conciliator, since he only saw it after that \ntrip and could not have told Canog about it (the first time, at least). \nThat's not an insurmountable problem. Sev said that he planned to make \nmore trips back to Os; on one of them he could have told someone about \nthe flood day. Canog might have picked up that information when looking \nfor more teachings of the Conciliator to flesh out his book." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-24T20:39:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<4860AE4F.2090804@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a bit off subject, I know, but it does pertain to Katherine, at\nleast the one at Severian's raising ceremony. It has always seemed to me,\neven the first time I read Shadow, that Severian was deceived into thinking\nthat his beheading of Katherine was illusion using a wax head, stage blood,\nfuligin cloth, and a clever device of some sort. If you read the passage\n(sorry, I am not close to my books just now) in TSotT I am speaking of, you\nwill notice that Sev goes out of his way to point out that the head is wax\nand that there is a clever mechanism used to make it all appear real. What\nstrikes me as strange is that Severian has, from his own admission, helped\nto prepare the wheel and other props (one can assume) when he was a\napprentice, but seems unable to explain how they work (besides the wheel)\nwhen he is raised. There is also a short description of his sword meeting\nresistance when it comes into contact with Katherine's neck. Perhaps there\nare other clues, but as I said, I am going from memory here, so... Any\nthoughts?\n\n\nAaron Singleton" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11955.67.142.130.13.1214340457.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-06-24T20:47:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he was in the proper state of mind for performing in an initiatory\ndrama.\n\nI don't find any of this speculation about the woman in the torturer's\nelevation ceremony at all convincing.\n\nI find the logistics of the torturer's guild killing an actress every time\nthey elevate an apprentice amusing to contemplate.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a bit off subject, I know, but it does pertain to Katherine, at\nleast the one at Severian's raising ceremony. It has always seemed to me,\neven the first time I read Shadow, that Severian was deceived into\nthinking that his beheading of Katherine was illusion using a wax head,\nstage blood, fuligin cloth, and a clever device of some sort. If you read\nthe passage (sorry, I am not close to my books just now) in TSotT I am\nspeaking of, you will notice that Sev goes out of his way to point out\nthat the head is wax and that there is a clever mechanism used to make it\nall appear real.\nWhat\nstrikes me as strange is that Severian has, from his own admission, helped\nto prepare the wheel and other props (one can assume) when he was a\napprentice, but seems unable to explain how they work (besides the wheel)\nwhen he is raised. There is also a short description of his sword meeting\nresistance when it comes into contact with Katherine's neck. Perhaps\nthere\nare other clues, but as I said, I am going from memory here, so... Any\nthoughts?\n\n\nAaron Singleton\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40806241428p3cbb54b5n10fe4bd0c4923a03@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-24T21:28:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<11955.67.142.130.13.1214340457.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aaron wrote:\nThis is a bit off subject, I know, but it does pertain to Katherine, at\nleast the one at Severian's raising ceremony. It has always seemed to me,\neven the first time I read Shadow, that Severian was deceived into thinking\nthat his beheading of Katherine was illusion using a wax head, stage blood,\nfuligin cloth, and a clever device of some sort. If you read the passage\n(sorry, I am not close to my books just now) in TSotT I am speaking of, you\nwill notice that Sev goes out of his way to point out that the head is wax\nand that there is a clever mechanism used to make it all appear real. What\nstrikes me as strange is that Severian has, from his own admission, helped\nto prepare the wheel and other props (one can assume) when he was a\napprentice, but seems unable to explain how they work (besides the wheel)\nwhen he is raised. There is also a short description of his sword meeting\nresistance when it comes into contact with Katherine's neck. Perhaps there\nare other clues, but as I said, I am going from memory here, so... Any\nthoughts?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this could be one of the guild's secrets. They tell the young\napprentices that it will all be faked, but at the last minute the initiate\nis told to carry it out for real. The big clue about the blade meeting\nresistance is that Sev didn't direct the blade to the side, as his previous\nexplanation said he would. In Sword XXXI, he explains how \"torturers obey\"\nand he says \"How could I refuse the Increate what I had willingly given the\nAutarch when I struck off Katharine's head?\" (Not just pretended to -- his\nargument only has force if he actually did something terrible at the moment\nof his initiation).\n\nI think it was faked with a wax head up until the time that Catherine came\nalong. Sev probably inherited his amazing self-healing abilities from her.\nSuppose the guild tried to put her to death in one of the usual ways and she\ninstantly recovered? They would have to cover this up to avoid the disgrace\nof failing to carry out the execution. They might decide to make the best of\nit by using her in the elevation ceremony every year, to give the initiates\na powerful and miraculous inspiration. Sev is betraying one of the secrets\nof the guild by giving enough information to guess the truth." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-25T03:05:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's Silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40806241428p3cbb54b5n10fe4bd0c4923a03@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brunians says: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't find any of this speculation about the woman in the torturer's elevation ceremony \nat all convincing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to agree. I thought I was going out on a limb to suggest the remote possibility that\nSeverian had sex with Catherine and this is the reason for his silence regarding this and\nother family ties.\n\nBut the text doesn't seem very ambiguous in this Elevation scene. Severian says the sword\nis a wooden batten. He calls it a \"false blade\" as he describes the downstroke. It meets \nresistance because it hits the \"ingenious mechanism\" that elevates a wax head. The wax \nhead and real head coveredin fuligin cloth trick is described in detail. And Catherine would \nhave to have tremendous healing powers to be able to take her severed head, place it back \non her neck and have it instantly as good as new. Only Severian, as Conciliator, is able to do\n anything close to that and he is limited to restoring withered arms and removing giant tumors. \nWell, I guess he cures the sick girl in the jacal also but nothing as dramatic as instantly healing \nand restoring a severed head.\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe other season of giving begins 6/24/08. Check out the i’m Talkathon.\nhttp://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_SeasonOfGiving" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48620024.6070702@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-25T08:21:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's Silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nBrunians says: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't find any of this speculation about the woman in the torturer's elevation ceremony \nat all convincing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have to agree. I thought I was going out on a limb to suggest the remote possibility that\nSeverian had sex with Catherine and this is the reason for his silence regarding this and\nother family ties.\n\nBut the text doesn't seem very ambiguous in this Elevation scene. Severian says the sword\nis a wooden batten. He calls it a \"false blade\" as he describes the downstroke. It meets \nresistance because it hits the \"ingenious mechanism\" that elevates a wax head. The wax \nhead and real head coveredin fuligin cloth trick is described in detail. And Catherine would \nhave to have tremendous healing powers to be able to take her severed head, place it back \non her neck and have it instantly as good as new. Only Severian, as Conciliator, is able to do\n anything close to that and he is limited to restoring withered arms and removing giant tumors. \nWell, I guess he cures the sick girl in the jacal also but nothing as dramatic as instantly healing \nand restoring a severed head." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stitching a freshly severed head back on is much less impressive than \nreturning days-dead Zama to life, or generating an entire new body for \nhimself on The Ship." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48621560.5060307@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-25T09:52:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's Silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nBut the text doesn't seem very ambiguous in this Elevation scene. Severian says the sword\nis a wooden batten. He calls it a \"false blade\" as he describes the downstroke. It meets \nresistance because it hits the \"ingenious mechanism\" that elevates a wax head. The wax \nhead and real head coveredin fuligin cloth trick is described in detail. And Catherine would \nhave to have tremendous healing powers to be able to take her severed head, place it back \non her neck and have it instantly as good as new. Only Severian, as Conciliator, is able to do\n anything close to that and he is limited to restoring withered arms and removing giant tumors. \nWell, I guess he cures the sick girl in the jacal also but nothing as dramatic as instantly healing \nand restoring a severed head.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still think there's something funny going on in that scene. Sev says \n\"...I took up the sword. It was vary heavy,\" A little later he says \"I \nremember that for a moment I feared it would overbalance me.\" Is this \nreally a wooden batten no larger than an ordinary headsman's blade?\n\nHer head was in shadow on the block. The sword \"thudded into the block, \nwhich fell into two.\" That isn't a description of directing the blade to \none side. I admit he says that was what he was going to do, up to the \nlast instant. Perhaps he was hypnotized or controlled in some way. \nPalaemon and Gurloes have to be in on it, because they carry on the \nceremony as if nothing unusual happened.\n\n\"I felt dizzy and tired.\" This sometimes happens when he exercises his \nown healing ability. Perhaps this only happened once, at Sev's own \nelevation. Nevertheless, something seems to have happened that is \ndifferent than what he said would happen. He's lying, but glimpses of \nthe truth break through." } ] }, { "message_id": "<11081.72.171.0.144.1214394544.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-06-25T11:49:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's Silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<48620024.6070702@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You think someone would notice that the chick came back to life, maybe\nmake a fuss....\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Brunians says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't find any of this speculation about the woman in the torturer's\nelevation ceremony\nat all convincing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have to agree. I thought I was going out on a limb to suggest the\nremote possibility that\nSeverian had sex with Catherine and this is the reason for his silence\nregarding this and\nother family ties.\n\nBut the text doesn't seem very ambiguous in this Elevation scene.\nSeverian says the sword\nis a wooden batten. He calls it a \"false blade\" as he describes the\ndownstroke. It meets\nresistance because it hits the \"ingenious mechanism\" that elevates a wax\nhead. The wax\nhead and real head coveredin fuligin cloth trick is described in detail.\nAnd Catherine would\nhave to have tremendous healing powers to be able to take her severed\nhead, place it back\non her neck and have it instantly as good as new. Only Severian, as\nConciliator, is able to do\n anything close to that and he is limited to restoring withered arms and\nremoving giant tumors.\nWell, I guess he cures the sick girl in the jacal also but nothing as\ndramatic as instantly healing\nand restoring a severed head." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stitching a freshly severed head back on is much less impressive than\nreturning days-dead Zama to life, or generating an entire new body for\nhimself on The Ship.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12587.72.171.0.144.1214394702.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-06-25T11:51:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's Silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<48621560.5060307@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are, of course, entitled to believe whatever you wish to believe.\n\nIt's pretty clear to me, though, that it is a little initiatory stage\nplay, and that Severian has the proper attitude to be performing in such.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the text doesn't seem very ambiguous in this Elevation scene.\nSeverian says the sword\nis a wooden batten. He calls it a \"false blade\" as he describes the\ndownstroke. It meets\nresistance because it hits the \"ingenious mechanism\" that elevates a wax\nhead. The wax\nhead and real head coveredin fuligin cloth trick is described in detail.\nAnd Catherine would\nhave to have tremendous healing powers to be able to take her severed\nhead, place it back\non her neck and have it instantly as good as new. Only Severian, as\nConciliator, is able to do\n anything close to that and he is limited to restoring withered arms and\nremoving giant tumors.\nWell, I guess he cures the sick girl in the jacal also but nothing as\ndramatic as instantly healing\nand restoring a severed head." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I still think there's something funny going on in that scene. Sev says\n\"...I took up the sword. It was vary heavy,\" A little later he says \"I\nremember that for a moment I feared it would overbalance me.\" Is this\nreally a wooden batten no larger than an ordinary headsman's blade?\n\nHer head was in shadow on the block. The sword \"thudded into the block,\nwhich fell into two.\" That isn't a description of directing the blade to\none side. I admit he says that was what he was going to do, up to the\nlast instant. Perhaps he was hypnotized or controlled in some way.\nPalaemon and Gurloes have to be in on it, because they carry on the\nceremony as if nothing unusual happened.\n\n\"I felt dizzy and tired.\" This sometimes happens when he exercises his\nown healing ability. Perhaps this only happened once, at Sev's own\nelevation. Nevertheless, something seems to have happened that is\ndifferent than what he said would happen. He's lying, but glimpses of\nthe truth break through.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-25T13:54:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's Silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<12587.72.171.0.144.1214394702.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stitching a freshly severed head back on is much less impressive than \nreturning days-dead Zama to life, or generating an entire new body for \nhimself on The Ship." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll disagree on the basis of the many micro-connections that would need to \nbe carefully mended. As an analogy, it would be impressive to watch a \npreviously dead car brought back to life. But far more amazing to see the \ncar's engine violently ripped out by a crane and watch someone instantly \nreplace it, with all hoses, wires and supports repaired and \nproperly connected.\n\nDave Tallman notes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I still think there's something funny going on in that scene. Sev says \n\"...I took up the sword. It was vary heavy,\" A little later he says \"I \nremember that for a moment I feared it would overbalance me.\" Is this \nreally a wooden batten no larger than an ordinary headsman's blade?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that there are odd emphases Wolfe makes throughout the story \nwhich seem to be hints that more than meets the eye is going on in a \nscene. And mentioning the heaviness of the false sword could be an example\nof that. I guess it could lead someone to assume a super-powered Catherine\n but maybe there are other possibilities?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-25T14:34:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's silence about Catherine‏", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave Tallman, earlier I missed your post in this thread which discussed Catherine \nand Valeria, but I'll comment now:\n\nI think Borski came up with some brilliant observations and analyses, but also some \nspectacular misses. This is an example. It seems a bit loony to contort and distort the \nstory and time and everything else to make Valeria the mother of Catherine when a \nmuch simpler answer presents itself. I think part of Borksi's problem is a blind spot \ncreated by his guess that kaibits are a red herring and don't exist at all.\n\nValeria lives in a tower off the Atrium of Time and it is clearly a time portal like Master\nAsh's Last House. Severian can't find the tower when flying around the citadel because\n the top of the tower exists in the future. But Valeria and her family (conspicuously absent; \nall we see is her maid) live in the lower levels of the tower, thus they live in Severian's\npast. Catherine's name is notable described as \"old fashioned\" and the same is said \nabout Valeria's clothes and could be said about her name. It is far simpler and more \nexplanatory to think that Catherine is mother to Valeria.\n\nBut we have the corpse with dark hair, livid face and a pale gown, perhaps choked to death as\nSeverian thinks his mother might have been (side note, Severian sees the corpse's face\nreflected in the face of Ultan- what can THAT mean?). Perhaps the corpse is Catherine's \nclone who escaped to the future at the top of the tower but was brought back to be executed.\n(or the reverse, perhaps the clone plays St. Katharine; does it matter?) Could Valeria be \na younger clone? Surely Barbea and Gracia are clones but perhaps Severian prefers the\nother clone connection of Catherine and Valeria as you suggest. It could mean the Thea-Thecla\nconnection but I think it very much fits the tone of this story for Wolfe to ask us whether\nit is incest if you marry a clone of your mother. Less compelling if Valeria is a normal daughter\nand thus just a half-sister to Severian.\n\nAnother possibly related clue: Before the Thecla alzabo feast, one of Vodalus' followers \nmentions hoping this one isn't a tribade (lesbian) again. I can't imagine this to be a \npointless throwaway line. So what could it mean? It seems to me the last alzabo meal\nmentioned to us was the corpse in the pale gown. I think various speculations could be\nmade if we learn that Catherine (and/or her clone) was a lesbian.\n\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8d712$271c2c00$21d24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-25T22:23:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's Silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "bsharp wrote:\nValeria lives in a tower off the Atrium of Time and it is clearly a time\nportal like Master Ash's Last House. Severian can't find the tower when\nflying around the citadel because the top of the tower exists in the future." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Valeria and her family (conspicuously absent; all we see is her maid)\nlive in the lower levels of the tower, thus they live in Severian's past.\nCatherine's name is notable described as \"old fashioned\" and the same is\nsaid about Valeria's clothes and could be said about her name. It is far\nsimpler and more explanatory to think that Catherine is mother to Valeria.<<\n\nSo, for Severian's entire life up to he time he left for Yesod, his mama,\nCatherine, was living in the cellar of one of the towers occupied by\nValeria's family, where Valeria had seen her daily? And Sev didn't know it?\nValeria never mentioned her parents in the ten years they lived together?\nTheir daughter married the autarch and he never even met them?\n\nIf he did meet them, who did he see? Catherine? If he saw her, then she\ncannot have been the woman he didn't recognize on the Path of Air, or the\nmaid who played the role of Holy Katharine, khaibit or original. He could\nnot have seen Ouen in Valeria's towers, because Ouen was waiting tables in a\ntree leagues away. If Ouen and Catherine are Valeria's parents, then she is\npresumably Sev's full sister, if not his hypothetical twin sister. If Ouen\nis not her father, then the most Valeria can be is his half-sister. If she\nis his half-sister, then there is another branch on Sev's family tree\nunaccounted for in the text, because Valeria's second husband cannot be in\nthe cellar, even if she were willing to grow up and marry her father after\nSev went to Yesod.\n\nWas Valeria lying or mistaken when she said she had no brothers or sisters?\nPossible. It is also possible that Valeria's \"family\" doesn't mean her\nfather and mother; it may mean other relatives. It is easiest to believe\nthat Catherine is not Valeria's mother.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8d71a$3cc7aea0$b9cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-25T23:21:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's Silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8d712$271c2c00$21d24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nIf Ouen\nis not her father, then the most Valeria can be is his half-sister. If she\nis his half-sister, then there is another branch on Sev's family tree\nunaccounted for in the text, because Valeria's second husband cannot be in\nthe cellar, even if she were willing to grow up and marry her father after\nSev went to Yesod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was someone else, not bsharp, who suggested that Catherine was Valeria's\ndaughter by way of her second husband. I screwed up and should have left off\nthe last half of that last sentence. Apologies to all. But the first half\nstands. If Valeria is Sev's sister and Ouen is not her father, that father\nmust be accounted for.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48633718.30603@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-26T06:28:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's Silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nJeff Wilson writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Stitching a freshly severed head back on is much less impressive than \nreturning days-dead Zama to life, or generating an entire new body for \nhimself on The Ship." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'll disagree on the basis of the many micro-connections that would need to \nbe carefully mended." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A clean sword stroke limits the trauma to a relatively thin layer of \nsome millions of cells and connective tissue, perhaps some fracturing \nwould spread through the one or two intersected vertebra. Zama, on the \nother hand, has trillions of cells' contents turned to mush from abject \nlack of perfusion." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48636A83.7070108@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-26T10:08:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's silence about Catherine‏", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nBut we have the corpse with dark hair, livid face and a pale gown, perhaps choked to death as\nSeverian thinks his mother might have been (side note, Severian sees the corpse's face\nreflected in the face of Ultan- what can THAT mean?). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting reference -- until you pointed that out I regarded \nthe grave-robbery corpse as a red herring. There's no reason for that \nbody to be any relation to Sev. If it's a coincidence it's too much, \nespecially since time-travel would seem to be involved. It could be \nintentional on the part of those manipulating Sev's life (the Autarch \nhas an agent in the torturer's guild, and has contact with Vodalus), but \nwhat would be the point?\n\nBut if Ultan's face in dim light strongly reminds Sev of that graveyard \nscene, it has to be considered. Ultan could possibly be Sev's \ngrandfather on his mother's side. He is a tall, \"a true exultant\" \n(Shadow VI). Sev could have inherited his photographic memory.\n\nWith a little work, we can cut the coincidence down to size. Time-travel \nis not strictly necessary, since there were long-term prisoners on the \nthird level of the oubliette. The death of a prisoner with interesting \ncourt connections could be used to attract Vodalus to the graveyard that \nnight, and the early meeting of Sev with Vodalus was a critical turning \npoint in his life. The Katharine of the elevation ceremony could be \nunrelated, or she be a khabit of the dead woman." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-26T12:54:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<48636A83.7070108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A clean sword stroke limits the trauma to a relatively thin layer of \nsome millions of cells and connective tissue, perhaps some fracturing \nwould spread through the one or two intersected vertebra. Zama, on the \nother hand, has trillions of cells' contents turned to mush from abject \nlack of perfusion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now Zama had already been reanimated, in zombie form, by Ceryx when\nSeverian worked his magic. So zombies move around without cellular function?\nZama is pale and when Burgundofora stabs him, his wound doesn't gush blood, just\nsome seepage, indicating blood isn't being pumped? So you might have something\nhere: zombies like Zama locomote and act using an external power source.\nSeverian restores independent cellular function.\n\nRoy C. Lackey asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, for Severian's entire life up to he time he left for Yesod, his mama,\nCatherine, was living in the cellar of one of the towers occupied by\nValeria's family, where Valeria had seen her daily? And Sev didn't know it?\nValeria never mentioned her parents in the ten years they lived together? \nTheir daughter married the autarch and he never even met them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My take on the title of this thread is that Severian does know some of his family\nconnections. But, as with Dorcas, he won't discuss them directly with us because \nthey inevitably reveal incest. I don't know if we can believe him but Severian says \nhe never again saw the maid after his elevation.\n\nRoy continues: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If he did meet them, who did he see? Catherine? If he saw her, then she\ncannot have been the woman he didn't recognize on the Path of Air, or the\nmaid who played the role of Holy Katharine, khaibit or original." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We know Severian, with his purportedly perfect memory, is constantly seeing\nsimilarities among the people places and things in his life. But as an unreliable \nnarrator, we know he sometimes confuses people, directions (east and west) etc.\nI think he is quite capable of seeing a person more than once and failing to recognize\nthem each time, instead just noting a resemblance.\n\nand: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Valeria is Sev's sister and Ouen is not her father, that father must be accounted for." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Borski provides a likely candidate for Severian's step-father. In addition to those \ncharacters described in \"gold\" adjectives he suggests all characters who show lameness\nare family members. There is a lame character who resides in the Citadel and who has \nthe power and authority to find and capture a runaway wife, sequester her in a tower and \nsend her adultery produced twin babies to the torturers and witches. That being the \nconspicuously unnamed Castellan. Severian tells us that, as for Catherine, he never sees\nhim again after their meeting. In (I think) Shadow, Severian mentions that the Castellan is\ntoo high an official for him to ever have seen, as a torturer. Quite a bit of attention paid to \nthis character, I think.\n\n(of course if Valeria is a clone of Catherine we really don't need a father ;-))\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8d7b4$2ce5c540$18cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-26T17:43:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's Silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bsharp quoted and wrote:\nIf Valeria is Sev's sister and Ouen is not her father, that father must be\naccounted for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Borski provides a likely candidate for Severian's step-father. In addition\nto those characters described in \"gold\" adjectives he suggests all\ncharacters who" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "show lameness are family members. There is a lame character who resides in\nthe Citadel and who has the power and authority to find and capture a\nrunaway wife, sequester her in a tower and send her adultery produced twin\nbabies to the torturers and witches. That being the conspicuously unnamed\nCastellan. Severian tells us that, as for Catherine, he never sees him again\nafter their meeting. In (I think) Shadow, Severian\nmentions that the Castellan is too high an official for him to ever have\nseen, as a torturer. Quite a bit of attention paid to this character, I\nthink.<<\n\nSev met the Castellan when he first returned to the Citadel as autarch.\n(CITADEL, XXXIII) Anyway, as I told you before, the text specifically states\nthat Valeria's family \"had given many castellans to the Citadel, but the\nlast had died generations ago;\". (SHADOW, IV) If that doesn't flat-out\npreclude the Castellan from being her father, then nothing in the text means\nanything.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<437402.2333.qm@web58213.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-06-26T18:52:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) sev's silence about catherine", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8d7b4$2ce5c540$18cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy states that the last castellan had died generations ago, and further asserts that if the castellan can be related to Valeria then indeed nothing in the book means anything.\n\nUnfortunately while nothing can be proven, Valeria's presence in a building that thwarts time in a book that involves time travel makes generations somewhat more moot than they would be in, say, War and Peace, and also makes these kind of statements much more ambiguous and open to interpretation than they would be in works of absolute realism, which is why it is so hard to pin down precisely which lines are literal and which are distorted by the capricious trans-temporal nature of the text.\n\nin other words, the words can be true and not true at the same time due to the nature of time and generations in the text, though I will not necessarily say I support the relationship of the \"current\" castellan with Valeria.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-27T03:09:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's Silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<437402.2333.qm@web58213.mail.re3.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. Lackey says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, as I told you before, the text specifically states\nthat Valeria's family \"had given many castellans to the Citadel, but the\nlast had died generations ago;\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry I didn't remember that Roy; it must have been a couple years ago.\nGood that you rememer clearly. But didn't you prompt my response with \nyour earlier challenge?:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Valeria is Sev's sister and Ouen is not her father, that father\nmust be accounted for." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I smell a set-up! ;-)\n\nSo it sounds as if Roy must espouse the alternate view that Valeria has no\nfather and is a clone of Catherine. Perhaps a long chain of clones which\nwould explain why she looked younger than Severian but had an antique quality\n that made her seem older than Master Palaemon. (j/k Roy).\n\nSpeaking of clones, if kaibits really do exist in this world I've wondered about \ntheir names. They must have names as they seem to have their own lives, not\njust immobile vat women passively providing blood to their mistresses. My final \n(in this round) speculation is that a kaibit would appropriately have a name which \nis derived from their mistress's name, but shortened. Examples might be \nJosephina-Josepha, Catherine-Carina, Pelagia-Pega. Though they are of similar\nheight I wonder about Thecla-Thea. Perhaps that's what the unexplained \"half-sister\"\nbusiness is about? Another thought to consider is that the name Thea is a bit too short\nto derive a shorter (saint) name from. Perhaps her kaibit is named Thais (Thea's).\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001201c8d813$8da8fe60$e3cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-27T05:06:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's Silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "bsharp quoted and wrote:\nAnyway, as I told you before, the text specifically states\nthat Valeria's family \"had given many castellans to the Citadel, but the\nlast had died generations ago;\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry I didn't remember that Roy; it must have been a couple years ago." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, it was. August 16, 2006, to be specific:\n\nhttp://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2006-August/006684.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good that you rememer clearly. But didn't you prompt my response with\nyour earlier challenge?:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nope. I was responding to your assertion of this June 25th that concluded:\n\"It is far simpler and more explanatory to think that Catherine is mother to\nValeria.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Valeria is Sev's sister and Ouen is not her father, that father\nmust be accounted for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I smell a set-up! ;-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm shocked, absolutely shocked that anyone could think such a thing of me!\nNow seriously, if you contend that Valeria is Sev's sister, and we know that\nSev's parents are Ouen and Catherine, and the text makes it impossible for\nOuen to be Valeria's father, then her father must be someone else. It ain't\nthe old Castellan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So it sounds as if Roy must espouse the alternate view that Valeria has no\nfather and is a clone of Catherine. Perhaps a long chain of clones which\nwould explain why she looked younger than Severian but had an antique\nquality\nthat made her seem older than Master Palaemon. (j/k Roy)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course you have to be joking to mention me and clones in the same breath.\n But the \"antique quality\" Sev wrote of actually referred to her\n\"metal-trimmed dress\". What kind of dress is metal-trimmed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speaking of clones, if kaibits really do exist in this world I've wondered\nabout\ntheir names. They must have names as they seem to have their own lives, not\njust immobile vat women passively providing blood to their mistresses. My\nfinal\n(in this round) speculation is that a kaibit would appropriately have a\nname which\nis derived from their mistress's name, but shortened. Examples might be\nJosephina-Josepha, Catherine-Carina, Pelagia-Pega. Though they are of\nsimilar\nheight I wonder about Thecla-Thea. Perhaps that's what the unexplained\n\"half-sister\"\nbusiness is about? Another thought to consider is that the name Thea is a\nbit too short\nto derive a shorter (saint) name from. Perhaps her kaibit is named Thais\n(Thea's)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't you think Sev would have noticed any presumed resemblance between\nThais and Thea on that makeshift raft?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-27T13:38:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's Silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "<001201c8d813$8da8fe60$e3cf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the \"antique quality\" Sev wrote of actually referred to her\n\"metal-trimmed dress\". What kind of dress is metal-trimmed?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually I think it referred to both her hair and dress (no books here)\nand I don't know what sort of dress is metal-trimmed. Are you hinting\nat something? Maybe Valeria is an Urth version of goth?\n\nRoy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't you think Sev would have noticed any presumed resemblance between\nThais and Thea on that makeshift raft?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am clearly willing to consider that Sev, despite his continual comparisons, does\nnot notice a number of important resemblances, notably the ones between Rudesind\nDorcas' husband, Isangoma, the cowled servitor in House Absolute, the Uruructu? \n(the masked jungle guide) and Father Inire.\n\nIf I remember correctly, Sev only glimpsed Thea's kaibit twice, both times on stairways. \nPerhaps she looks a bit different outdoors on a boat. Most important, if Severian recognized\neveryone accurately in the story, it might lose a level of depth. Maybe Gene Wolfe thought\nthat, maybe not. Anyway, Thais has sunken cheeks. These get enough of a mention for me \nto suspect they are related to kaibits. I think maybe a triangular face with sunken cheeks \nwould become heart-shaped.\n\nRoy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course you have to be joking to mention me and clones in the same breath." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Roy, then I'll have to put you in the ultra-conservative camp including Borski who\ndidn't see clones either. ;-). But anyway, I think Dave Tallman is mining a productive\nvein of hints in the other thread, currently.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c8da53$b5b778e0$a7d04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-30T01:50:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's Silence about Catherine", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp quoted and wrote:\nDon't you think Sev would have noticed any presumed resemblance between\nThais and Thea on that makeshift raft?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am clearly willing to consider that Sev, despite his continual\ncomparisons, does\nnot notice a number of important resemblances, [snip]\nIf I remember correctly, Sev only glimpsed Thea's kaibit twice, both times\non stairways. Perhaps she looks a bit different outdoors on a boat.<< [snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He didn't notice a resemblance between the false Thea and Thais all right,\nbut maybe that can be shrugged off as the natural change wrought by the\nravages of time between meetings. Fifty years does things to a woman's face.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }