{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5067", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5067, "subject": "Rose the Graced not Rose the Chaste", "messages": 7, "voices": 6, "first": "2008-06-23T05:45:04+00:00", "last": "2008-06-24T09:38:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<485F3860.90108@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-23T05:45:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rose the Graced not Rose the Chaste", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Shadow X, Thecla quotes:\n\"Here Rose the Graced, not Rose the Chaste, reposes.\nThe scent that rises is no scent of roses.\"\n\nIn http://www.bibliomania.com/2/3/255/1183/23925/1.html I found the \nfollowing:\n\nRosamond (Fair). Higden, monk of Chester, says: ?She was the fayre \ndaughter of Walter, Lord Clifford, concubine of Henry II., and poisoned \nby Queen Elianor, A.D. 1177. Henry made for her a house of wonderful \nworking, so that no man or woman might come to her. This house was named \nLabyrinthus, and was wrought like unto a knot in a garden called a maze. \nBut the queen came to her by a clue of thredde, and so dealt with her \nthat she lived not long after. She was buried at Godstow, in an house of \nnunnes, with these verses upon her tombe:-\n\nHere Rose the graced, not Rose the chaste, reposes;\nThe smell that rises is no smell of roses.\n\nThis story is referenced in \"A Solar Labyrinth\": \"The Fayre Rosamund \ndropped her embroidery with her needle thrust through it, but forgot the \nyarn in her pocket, thus furnishing Queen Eleanor's knights with the \nclue they required to solve Hampton Court Maze.\"\n\nI have a couple of observations from this. First, this is yet another \nexample of a reference to Earth's history. Urth is either in Earth's \nfuture or the Big Bang/Grand Gnab cycle repeats in so many details that \nfree will is suspect.\n\nSecond, this is one of many maze/labyrinth references in the New Sun \nbooks. Another interesting one is the labyrinthine library of Master \nUltan, which recalls the library ruled by another Borges-like figure in \nEco's \"The Name of the Rose.\" (This connects roses and mazes once again).\n\nCan anyone see a connection with the character named Rose (or \nRose-in-Marble) in the Long Sun books?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<381eca020806222259v5339784hb6987e5c8f037cbf@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Martinus Scriblerus", "address": "martinus.scriblerus at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-23T05:59:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rose the Graced not Rose the Chaste", "in_reply_to": "<485F3860.90108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 6:45 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nIn Shadow X, Thecla quotes:\n\"Here Rose the Graced, not Rose the Chaste, reposes.\nThe scent that rises is no scent of roses.\"\n\nIn http://www.bibliomania.com/2/3/255/1183/23925/1.html I found the\nfollowing:\n\nRosamond (Fair). Higden, monk of Chester, says: \"She was the fayre daughter\nof Walter, Lord Clifford, concubine of Henry II., and poisoned by Queen\nElianor, A.D. 1177. Henry made for her a house of wonderful working, so that\nno man or woman might come to her. This house was named Labyrinthus, and was\nwrought like unto a knot in a garden called a maze. But the queen came to\nher by a clue of thredde, and so dealt with her that she lived not long\nafter. She was buried at Godstow, in an house of nunnes, with these verses\nupon her tombe:-\n\nHere Rose the graced, not Rose the chaste, reposes;\nThe smell that rises is no smell of roses.\n\nThis story is referenced in \"A Solar Labyrinth\": \"The Fayre Rosamund dropped\nher embroidery with her needle thrust through it, but forgot the yarn in her\npocket, thus furnishing Queen Eleanor's knights with the clue they required\nto solve Hampton Court Maze.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I will merely comment that the Hampton Court Maze was created at the\nend of the 17th century.\n\nSee: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampton_Court_Maze#The_Maze" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Martinus Scriblerus scripsit ex 50? 21' N, 4?41' W" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080623103229.E65FE48003@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-06-23T10:31:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rose the Graced not Rose the Chaste", "in_reply_to": "<381eca020806222259v5339784hb6987e5c8f037cbf@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 06:59 23/06/2008, you wrote:\nThis story is referenced in \"A Solar Labyrinth\": \"The Fayre \nRosamund dropped\nher embroidery with her needle thrust through it, but forgot the \nyarn in her\npocket, thus furnishing Queen Eleanor's knights with the clue they required\nto solve Hampton Court Maze.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I will merely comment that the Hampton Court Maze was created at the \nend of the 17th century." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed -- the maze that concealed Rosamund was supposedly at \nWoodstock. Whether this is more likely to be the narrator of A Solar \nLabyrinth subtly misleading us, or Wolfe making a mistake, who can say.\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki\nhttp://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<48604166.5060206@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2008-06-24T00:35:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rose the Graced not Rose the Chaste", "in_reply_to": "<20080623103229.E65FE48003@diego.dreamhost.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is just as well that the maze was not the Hampton Court maze, as that \none is easy enough to solve even if you aren't armed and dangerous. My \nwife and I did it fairly quickly in 1988, although it appears from the \nlink that it may have been modified since then.\n\nWere I to conceal a concubine in a maze, I'd pick a more complex one.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:\nAt 06:59 23/06/2008, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This story is referenced in \"A Solar Labyrinth\": \"The Fayre \nRosamund dropped\nher embroidery with her needle thrust through it, but forgot the \nyarn in her\npocket, thus furnishing Queen Eleanor's knights with the clue they \nrequired\nto solve Hampton Court Maze.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I will merely comment that the Hampton Court Maze was created at the \nend of the 17th century." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed -- the maze that concealed Rosamund was supposedly at \nWoodstock. Whether this is more likely to be the narrator of A Solar \nLabyrinth subtly misleading us, or Wolfe making a mistake, who can say.\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki\nhttp://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10806231902l1fd6a8fcv4f9919acc423044a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-24T02:02:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rose the Graced not Rose the Chaste", "in_reply_to": "<485F3860.90108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 1:45 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\n\nSecond, this is one of many maze/labyrinth references in the New Sun books.\nAnother interesting one is the labyrinthine library of Master Ultan, which\nrecalls the library ruled by another Borges-like figure in Eco's \"The Name\nof the Rose.\" (This connects roses and mazes once again)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I once started theorizing about references to The Name of the Rose in The\nBook of the New Sun, but I'm afraid the parallels between the two books are\njust (beautiful) coincidences. The Shadow of the Torturer appeared in 1980,\nthe same year that The Name of the Rose appeared in Italian. The English\nedition didn't appear until 1983.\n\nI guess great minds really do think alike.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48606036.5020709@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-24T02:47:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rose the Graced not Rose the Chaste", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10806231902l1fd6a8fcv4f9919acc423044a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Keeley wrote:\n\n\nOn Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 1:45 AM, Dave Tallman > wrote:\n\n\n\n Second, this is one of many maze/labyrinth references in the New Sun\n books. Another interesting one is the labyrinthine library of Master\n Ultan, which recalls the library ruled by another Borges-like figure\n in Eco's \"The Name of the Rose.\" (This connects roses and mazes once\n again).\n\n\nI once started theorizing about references to The Name of the Rose in \nThe Book of the New Sun, but I'm afraid the parallels between the two \nbooks are just (beautiful) coincidences. The Shadow of the Torturer \nappeared in 1980, the same year that The Name of the Rose appeared in \nItalian. The English edition didn't appear until 1983.\n\nI guess great minds really do think alike." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the same vein, the realities of early 20th century university \nconstruction dictate a juxtaposition of diverse styles and periods as \nwell as enclosed and exposed spaces connected via a subterranean maze of \nutility tunnels to inspire writers in residence, whether as students \n(Wolfe) or professors (Borges)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080624093858.0C1B948002@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-06-24T09:38:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rose the Graced not Rose the Chaste", "in_reply_to": "<48606036.5020709@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 03:02 24/06/2008, Matt wrote:\nI once started theorizing about references to The Name of the Rose \nin The Book of the New Sun, but I'm afraid the parallels between the \ntwo books are just (beautiful) coincidences. The Shadow of the \nTorturer appeared in 1980, the same year that The Name of the Rose \nappeared in Italian. The English edition didn't appear until 1983.\n\nI guess great minds really do think alike." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eco and Wolfe were born only eight months apart -- you can imagine \nthem both simultaneously poring excitedly over their newly-acquired \ntranslated Borges, in their respective university rooms; one at Texas \nA&M, the other in Turin. (Well, I can.)\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki\nhttp://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/ " } ] } ] }