Subject: (urth) Rose the Graced not Rose the Chaste

From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 05:45:04 +0000

In Shadow X, Thecla quotes:
"Here Rose the Graced, not Rose the Chaste, reposes.
The scent that rises is no scent of roses."

In http://www.bibliomania.com/2/3/255/1183/23925/1.html I found the 
following:

Rosamond (Fair). Higden, monk of Chester, says: ?She was the fayre 
daughter of Walter, Lord Clifford, concubine of Henry II., and poisoned 
by Queen Elianor, A.D. 1177. Henry made for her a house of wonderful 
working, so that no man or woman might come to her. This house was named 
Labyrinthus, and was wrought like unto a knot in a garden called a maze. 
But the queen came to her by a clue of thredde, and so dealt with her 
that she lived not long after. She was buried at Godstow, in an house of 
nunnes, with these verses upon her tombe:-

Here Rose the graced, not Rose the chaste, reposes;
The smell that rises is no smell of roses.

This story is referenced in "A Solar Labyrinth": "The Fayre Rosamund 
dropped her embroidery with her needle thrust through it, but forgot the 
yarn in her pocket, thus furnishing Queen Eleanor's knights with the 
clue they required to solve Hampton Court Maze."

I have a couple of observations from this. First, this is yet another 
example of a reference to Earth's history. Urth is either in Earth's 
future or the Big Bang/Grand Gnab cycle repeats in so many details that 
free will is suspect.

Second, this is one of many maze/labyrinth references in the New Sun 
books. Another interesting one is the labyrinthine library of Master 
Ultan, which recalls the library ruled by another Borges-like figure in 
Eco's "The Name of the Rose." (This connects roses and mazes once again).

Can anyone see a connection with the character named Rose (or 
Rose-in-Marble) in the Long Sun books?

---

From: Martinus Scriblerus <martinus.scriblerus at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 05:59:30 +0000

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 6:45 AM, Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com> wrote:
> Rosamond (Fair). Higden, monk of Chester, says: "She was the fayre daughter
> of Walter, Lord Clifford, concubine of Henry II., and poisoned by Queen
> Elianor, A.D. 1177. Henry made for her a house of wonderful working, so that
> no man or woman might come to her. This house was named Labyrinthus, and was
> wrought like unto a knot in a garden called a maze. But the queen came to
> her by a clue of thredde, and so dealt with her that she lived not long
> after. She was buried at Godstow, in an house of nunnes, with these verses
> upon her tombe:-
>
> This story is referenced in "A Solar Labyrinth": "The Fayre Rosamund dropped
> her embroidery with her needle thrust through it, but forgot the yarn in her
> pocket, thus furnishing Queen Eleanor's knights with the clue they required
> to solve Hampton Court Maze."

I will merely comment that the Hampton Court Maze was created at the
end of the 17th century.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampton_Court_Maze#The_Maze

-- 
Martinus Scriblerus scripsit ex 50? 21' N, 4?41' W

---

From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 10:31:13 +0000

>I will merely comment that the Hampton Court Maze was created at the 

Indeed -- the maze that concealed Rosamund was supposedly at 
Woodstock. Whether this is more likely to be the narrator of A Solar 
Labyrinth subtly misleading us, or Wolfe making a mistake, who can say.

best,

Mo

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http://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/

---

From: Dave Lebling <dlebling at hyraxes.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 00:35:50 +0000

It is just as well that the maze was not the Hampton Court maze, as that 
one is easy enough to solve even if you aren't armed and dangerous. My 
wife and I did it fairly quickly in 1988, although it appears from the 
link that it may have been modified since then.

Were I to conceal a concubine in a maze, I'd pick a more complex one.

-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha

Mo Holkar / UKG wrote:
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---

From: Matthew Keeley <matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:02:15 +0000

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 1:45 AM, Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com> wrote:

>
>
> Second, this is one of many maze/labyrinth references in the New Sun books.
> Another interesting one is the labyrinthine library of Master Ultan, which
> recalls the library ruled by another Borges-like figure in Eco's "The Name
> of the Rose." (This connects roses and mazes once again).
>

I once started theorizing about references to The Name of the Rose in The
Book of the New Sun, but I'm afraid the parallels between the two books are
just (beautiful) coincidences. The Shadow of the Torturer appeared in 1980,
the same year that The Name of the Rose appeared in Italian. The English
edition didn't appear until 1983.

I guess great minds really do think alike.

-Matt
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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 02:47:18 +0000

Matthew Keeley wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 1:45 AM, Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com 
> <mailto:davetallman at msn.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>     Ultan, which recalls the library ruled by another Borges-like figure
>     in Eco's "The Name of the Rose." (This connects roses and mazes once
>     again).
> 
> 
> I once started theorizing about references to The Name of the Rose in 
> The Book of the New Sun, but I'm afraid the parallels between the two 
> books are just (beautiful) coincidences. The Shadow of the Torturer 
> appeared in 1980, the same year that The Name of the Rose appeared in 
> Italian. The English edition didn't appear until 1983.
> 

In the same vein, the realities of early 20th century university 
construction dictate a juxtaposition of diverse styles and periods as 
well as enclosed and exposed spaces connected via a subterranean maze of 
utility tunnels to inspire writers in residence, whether as students 
(Wolfe) or professors (Borges).

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:38:55 +0000

At 03:02 24/06/2008, Matt wrote:
>I once started theorizing about references to The Name of the Rose 
>in The Book of the New Sun, but I'm afraid the parallels between the 
>two books are just (beautiful) coincidences. The Shadow of the 
>Torturer appeared in 1980, the same year that The Name of the Rose 
>appeared in Italian. The English edition didn't appear until 1983.
>

Eco and Wolfe were born only eight months apart -- you can imagine 
them both simultaneously poring excitedly over their newly-acquired 
translated Borges, in their respective university rooms; one at Texas 
A&M, the other in Turin. (Well, I can.)

Mo

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