# Rose the Graced not Rose the Chaste *The Urth list — 7 messages, 6 voices, 23 Jun 2008* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Dave Tallman *23 Jun 2008, 05:45* In Shadow X, Thecla quotes: "Here Rose the Graced, not Rose the Chaste, reposes. The scent that rises is no scent of roses." In http://www.bibliomania.com/2/3/255/1183/23925/1.html I found the following: Rosamond (Fair). Higden, monk of Chester, says: ?She was the fayre daughter of Walter, Lord Clifford, concubine of Henry II., and poisoned by Queen Elianor, A.D. 1177. Henry made for her a house of wonderful working, so that no man or woman might come to her. This house was named Labyrinthus, and was wrought like unto a knot in a garden called a maze. But the queen came to her by a clue of thredde, and so dealt with her that she lived not long after. She was buried at Godstow, in an house of nunnes, with these verses upon her tombe:- Here Rose the graced, not Rose the chaste, reposes; The smell that rises is no smell of roses. This story is referenced in "A Solar Labyrinth": "The Fayre Rosamund dropped her embroidery with her needle thrust through it, but forgot the yarn in her pocket, thus furnishing Queen Eleanor's knights with the clue they required to solve Hampton Court Maze." I have a couple of observations from this. First, this is yet another example of a reference to Earth's history. Urth is either in Earth's future or the Big Bang/Grand Gnab cycle repeats in so many details that free will is suspect. Second, this is one of many maze/labyrinth references in the New Sun books. Another interesting one is the labyrinthine library of Master Ultan, which recalls the library ruled by another Borges-like figure in Eco's "The Name of the Rose." (This connects roses and mazes once again). Can anyone see a connection with the character named Rose (or Rose-in-Marble) in the Long Sun books? --- ### Martinus Scriblerus *23 Jun 2008, 05:59 · in reply to Dave Tallman* > On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 6:45 AM, Dave Tallman wrote: > In Shadow X, Thecla quotes: > "Here Rose the Graced, not Rose the Chaste, reposes. > The scent that rises is no scent of roses." > > In http://www.bibliomania.com/2/3/255/1183/23925/1.html I found the > following: > > Rosamond (Fair). Higden, monk of Chester, says: "She was the fayre daughter > of Walter, Lord Clifford, concubine of Henry II., and poisoned by Queen > Elianor, A.D. 1177. Henry made for her a house of wonderful working, so that > no man or woman might come to her. This house was named Labyrinthus, and was > wrought like unto a knot in a garden called a maze. But the queen came to > her by a clue of thredde, and so dealt with her that she lived not long > after. She was buried at Godstow, in an house of nunnes, with these verses > upon her tombe:- > > Here Rose the graced, not Rose the chaste, reposes; > The smell that rises is no smell of roses. > > This story is referenced in "A Solar Labyrinth": "The Fayre Rosamund dropped > her embroidery with her needle thrust through it, but forgot the yarn in her > pocket, thus furnishing Queen Eleanor's knights with the clue they required > to solve Hampton Court Maze." I will merely comment that the Hampton Court Maze was created at the end of the 17th century. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampton_Court_Maze#The_Maze ``` Martinus Scriblerus scripsit ex 50? 21' N, 4?41' W ``` --- ### Mo Holkar / UKG *23 Jun 2008, 10:31 · in reply to Martinus Scriblerus* >> At 06:59 23/06/2008, you wrote: >> This story is referenced in "A Solar Labyrinth": "The Fayre >> Rosamund dropped >> her embroidery with her needle thrust through it, but forgot the >> yarn in her >> pocket, thus furnishing Queen Eleanor's knights with the clue they required >> to solve Hampton Court Maze." > I will merely comment that the Hampton Court Maze was created at the > end of the 17th century. Indeed -- the maze that concealed Rosamund was supposedly at Woodstock. Whether this is more likely to be the narrator of A Solar Labyrinth subtly misleading us, or Wolfe making a mistake, who can say. best, Mo # ~ # ~ # WolfeWiki http://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/ --- ### Dave Lebling *24 Jun 2008, 00:35 · in reply to Mo Holkar / UKG* It is just as well that the maze was not the Hampton Court maze, as that one is easy enough to solve even if you aren't armed and dangerous. My wife and I did it fairly quickly in 1988, although it appears from the link that it may have been modified since then. Were I to conceal a concubine in a maze, I'd pick a more complex one. -- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha > Mo Holkar / UKG wrote: > At 06:59 23/06/2008, you wrote: >>> This story is referenced in "A Solar Labyrinth": "The Fayre >>> Rosamund dropped >>> her embroidery with her needle thrust through it, but forgot the >>> yarn in her >>> pocket, thus furnishing Queen Eleanor's knights with the clue they >>> required >>> to solve Hampton Court Maze." >> I will merely comment that the Hampton Court Maze was created at the >> end of the 17th century. > Indeed -- the maze that concealed Rosamund was supposedly at > Woodstock. Whether this is more likely to be the narrator of A Solar > Labyrinth subtly misleading us, or Wolfe making a mistake, who can say. > > best, > > Mo > > > # ~ # ~ # > > WolfeWiki > http://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/ > _______________________________________________ --- ### Matthew Keeley *24 Jun 2008, 02:02 · in reply to Dave Tallman* > On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 1:45 AM, Dave Tallman wrote: > > > Second, this is one of many maze/labyrinth references in the New Sun books. > Another interesting one is the labyrinthine library of Master Ultan, which > recalls the library ruled by another Borges-like figure in Eco's "The Name > of the Rose." (This connects roses and mazes once again). I once started theorizing about references to The Name of the Rose in The Book of the New Sun, but I'm afraid the parallels between the two books are just (beautiful) coincidences. The Shadow of the Torturer appeared in 1980, the same year that The Name of the Rose appeared in Italian. The English edition didn't appear until 1983. I guess great minds really do think alike. -Matt --- ### Jeff Wilson *24 Jun 2008, 02:47 · in reply to Matthew Keeley* > Matthew Keeley wrote: > > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 1:45 AM, Dave Tallman > wrote: > > > > Second, this is one of many maze/labyrinth references in the New Sun > books. Another interesting one is the labyrinthine library of Master > Ultan, which recalls the library ruled by another Borges-like figure > in Eco's "The Name of the Rose." (This connects roses and mazes once > again). > > > I once started theorizing about references to The Name of the Rose in > The Book of the New Sun, but I'm afraid the parallels between the two > books are just (beautiful) coincidences. The Shadow of the Torturer > appeared in 1980, the same year that The Name of the Rose appeared in > Italian. The English edition didn't appear until 1983. > > I guess great minds really do think alike. In the same vein, the realities of early 20th century university construction dictate a juxtaposition of diverse styles and periods as well as enclosed and exposed spaces connected via a subterranean maze of utility tunnels to inspire writers in residence, whether as students (Wolfe) or professors (Borges). ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` --- ### Mo Holkar / UKG *24 Jun 2008, 09:38 · follows Jeff Wilson* > At 03:02 24/06/2008, Matt wrote: > I once started theorizing about references to The Name of the Rose > in The Book of the New Sun, but I'm afraid the parallels between the > two books are just (beautiful) coincidences. The Shadow of the > Torturer appeared in 1980, the same year that The Name of the Rose > appeared in Italian. The English edition didn't appear until 1983. > > I guess great minds really do think alike. Eco and Wolfe were born only eight months apart -- you can imagine them both simultaneously poring excitedly over their newly-acquired translated Borges, in their respective university rooms; one at Texas A&M, the other in Turin. (Well, I can.) Mo # ~ # ~ # WolfeWiki http://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/ ---