{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5071", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5071, "subject": "The Maids of Contessa Carina", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2008-06-27T06:04:51+00:00", "last": "2008-06-29T05:24:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<48648303.9030101@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-27T06:04:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Maids of Contessa Carina", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Eschatology and Genesis, the Contessa Carina has three maids. She \ncalls on Solange and Kyneburga. Her maid Lybe is present with her. I \nfound their saint's legends on the net.\n\nSt. Solange: She was abducted by force, but she struggled so violently \nthat she fell from his horse while he was crossing a stream. Her \nabductor grew enraged and beheaded her with his sword; Solange's severed \nhead invoked three times the Holy Name of Jesus. Solange picked up her \nhead in her own hands and walked with it as far as the church of \nSaint-Martin in the village of Saint-Martin-du-Crot.\n\nSt Cyneburga: It is said that a prestigious Royal marriage was arranged \nfor the young Cyneburga, presumably involving her abandoning her nunnery \nin Gloucester. To avoid leaving the service of God, she fled into hiding \nin the city where she was taken in as the servant of a baker. The baker \nsoon wished to adopt her, but his wife was consumed with jealousy and, \nwhen the baker was out one day, she murdered Cyneburga, chopped off her \nhead and threw it into a well near the south gate of the city. When the \nhusband returned home and called out to his maidservant, she replied \nfrom the well!\n\nSt Lybe: Virgin martyr of Eutropia, with Eutropia and Leonis. They died \nat Palmyra, Syria. Lybe was beheaded.\n\nSt. Carina: One of her companions was beheaded, but she was not. She \ndied under torture.\n\nThree maids of the Contessa, all named for beheaded saints. This starts \nto look like a clue. Too much time is spent on the description and \nemotional reactions of the woman on the Bridge of Air for her not to be \nhighly significant in Sev's life; i.e. she's his mother, Catherine. \n(There's also the Catherine/Carina name near-match). The maids with \nnames of beheaded saints hint at a series of her khabits that \nparticipated in the elevation ceremony as \"Katharine.\" I think we can \nallow Wolfe enough leeway for trickery to say that Catherine's face was \n\"strange\" and \"unknown\" if Sev only saw her khabits. The Thecla khabit \nin the House Azure was not a perfect double.\n\nAfter Catherine time-traveled back, got pregnant, and bore Severian, she \nherself might have been kept young using khabit blood in the third level \nof the dungeon until she was finally executed by Allowin's Necklace to \nprovide the grave-robbery corpse. Years in the dungeon and the effects \nof strangulation might render her unrecognizable as the same woman Sev \nsaw on the day of the flood." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-27T21:08:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Maids of Contessa Carina", "in_reply_to": "<48648303.9030101@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave Tallman I agree with Marc Aramini. I think you are really ON to something here! I \ndon't think anyone else in the 11 or 12 year history of this list has noted the beheading \nhint regarding the maids. (Maybe Roy would know)\n\nActually I'm a little pissed because just a few days ago (I swear!) I was searching out the \nlives of Saints Solange, Kyneburga and Lybe. In my search I was intrigued by the fact that \ntwo had been beheaded but discouraged that the third one seemed to have died some other \nway, and gave up pursuing that. I'm glad your obsession with Catherine's beheading at the\n Elevation drove you to check and got you to the right sites showing all three were beheaded.\n\nI think the meaning is still far from clear. And since the first four books were meant to be\ncomplete, how in blue blazes did Wolfe expect anyone to connect Contessa Carina and her\nmaids to the Elevation ceremony maid without the loggia scene hint in Urth? Perhaps it would\nhave been possible for some super-genius not ever residing here...but.. Well..anyway.\n\nAssuming there are kaibit maids involved here, who is the original cell donor? Is she an exultant\nin the House Absolute or elsewhere or an armigette living in the Citadel? Is the original ever \nseen or mentioned? Was Severian the son of the original or a kaibit? \n\nDave you seem to be mushing all these characters together as Catherine/Carina. Are you \nthinking that there is or isn't a real Carina? And I think you are suggesting that Severian's \nmother was in the loggia and in the coffin, while her kaibit(s) served as St. Katharine?\n\nWell, I have to check a few things in the text when I get home. Hope more comes from this!\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4865E58B.5010408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-28T07:17:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Maids of Contessa Carina", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nAssuming there are kaibit maids involved here, who is the original cell donor? Is she an exultant\nin the House Absolute or elsewhere or an armigette living in the Citadel? Is the original ever \nseen or mentioned? Was Severian the son of the original or a kaibit? \n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I take the original cell donor to be an exultant from the House \nAbsolute. From the play: \"The Contessa waits outside, and as she is of \nexalted blood, and a favorite of our sovereign's, I beg you see her \nfirst,\" and \"Eight years since my girlhood have I abode in this House \nAbsolute.\" I believe she escaped to the past to become Catherine, the \nmother of Severian. I also believe that the maid khabits were made for \nher after her imprisonment, since she was alone when she met Ouen.\n\nIn another post I mentioned the lines about the Contessa prolonging her \nlife by bearing a child. She escaped the flood by going to the past. \nThis is a time-loop paradox for the first Severian, if he caused the \nsituation leading to his own conception. I'll assume the first Catherine \nescaped to the past for some other reason, such as an Ascian invasion. \nOnce a Sev with a good chance to bring the New Sun was conceived and \nattracted the interest of the Heirogrammates, the loop could be \nmaintained by coercion if necessary, hence the guards Sev saw with the \nwoman." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave you seem to be mushing all these characters together as Catherine/Carina. Are you \nthinking that there is or isn't a real Carina? And I think you are suggesting that Severian's \nmother was in the loggia and in the coffin, while her kaibit(s) served as St. Katharine?\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The name \"Carina\" was probably fictional, invented by Dr. Talos. Sev \nmust have brought information about that final day of the Commonwealth \nback to the past so that it could be added to Canog's book, but he \ndidn't know the woman's real name. The name Catherine is the one she \ngave Ouen; it may not be genuine. The name sounded old-fashioned to \nOuen, which is a mistake a time-traveler to the past might make.\n\nYou are correct; I am suggesting that Sev's mother was in the loggia and \nthe coffin, while her khabit or khabits served as St. Katherine. At \nSev's elevation, someone seems to have arranged a test of his powers. \nThey substituted a heavy real sword for the fake one, and hypnotized Sev \ninto striking for real. If he had no powers of healing, all it would \ncost is the life of the khabit, who was no longer needed since Catherine \nhad died the previous year. Sev passed with flying colors, healing \"St. \nKatharine\" in a spectacular fashion that conformed to his expectations \nof how the scene would play out.\n\nCatherine herself was kept alive for many years, possibly in the third \nlevel of the oubilette. This is just a guess, but her execution might \nhave been ordered so that Vodalus would come to the graveyard to change \nSev's life. Vodalus could be told \"A woman just died who is supposed to \nhave come from the future. It might be interesting to eat her brain and \nlearn what she knows.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001201c8d99a$f49ed4e0$71d24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-29T03:48:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Maids of Contessa Carina", "in_reply_to": "<4865E58B.5010408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nI take the original cell donor to be an exultant from the House\nAbsolute. From the play: \"The Contessa waits outside, and as she is of\nexalted blood, and a favorite of our sovereign's, I beg you see her\nfirst,\" and \"Eight years since my girlhood have I abode in this House\nAbsolute.\" I believe she escaped to the past to become Catherine, the\nmother of Severian. I also believe that the maid khabits were made for\nher after her imprisonment, since she was alone when she met Ouen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are difficulties inherent with trying to map a person's life to some\nlines from a play. But let's assume that your basic idea is correct, that\nthe woman Sev saw in the loggia was his mother, Ouen's Catherine. Naturally,\nI have some questions. \n\nWho gave the order to escort/arrest her? Valeria? She acted so addle-brained\nat the end as to seem uncomprehending of Urth's doom-in-progress. Aside from\nthe generic value of exultant hostages to the autarchy, what made that\nparticular woman so important to Valeria that she merited special attention?\nThe Praetorians were the autarch's personal guards. Who but the autarch\n*could* command them? Inire? Sev had left him in charge of the Commonwealth\nwhen he went to Yesod, but that seems not to have lasted for long, otherwise\nValeria would not be on the throne. Inire seems not to have been around any\nmore.\n\nNessus was already two days drowned when Sev saw the woman, and the House\nAbsolute was shortly to be inundated, so where was she being taken, and how?\n\nWhen and where was she born? During the forty years Sev was gone?\n\nIf she was an exultant, then so were both of her parents. Who were they, and\ndo they appear anywhere in the Urth Cycle? (It seems odd that Ouen never\nmentioned that he was shacked-up with an exultant. And exultants didn't\nchoose to bury their dead on Citadel Hill. Of course, being buried before\nshe was born might make for an exception. Still, the Guild's victims were\nburied in the lower reaches, not up where the graves had monuments, which is\nwhere the grave of the woman whose body was stolen was located.)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48671C8A.10307@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-29T05:24:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Maids of Contessa Carina", "in_reply_to": "<001201c8d99a$f49ed4e0$71d24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThere are difficulties inherent with trying to map a person's life to some\nlines from a play. But let's assume that your basic idea is correct, that\nthe woman Sev saw in the loggia was his mother, Ouen's Catherine. Naturally,\nI have some questions. \n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I found an additional metaphorical clue in the play to strengthen this \ntheory:\n\nContessa: ... I was to look like a post decked with morning-glories, it \nwould seem.\nMeschia: Brat! Don't trifle with holy things while I am near, or dare do \nanything but what I tell you.\n\nThe Contessa's words about morning-glories seem to Meschia to be \ntrifling with holy things, which makes sense if we think of the New Sun \nas a \"Morning Glory.\" She is \"a post decked with morning-glories,\" i.e. \nshe provides a place for the New Sun to grow (her womb).\n\nParallel to this is the image of moonflowers. The Autarch says \"... and \ntrain the pale moonflower to climb that staff.\" Moonflowers are a \nnight-blooming variety of morning-glories. In this imagery I suggest \nthey portray the Moon to the morning glory's Sun. The list of persons in \nthe play lists \"The New Sun\", \"The Old Sun\", and \"The Moon\", which I \nsuggest would be played by Severian, Dr. Talos, and Dorcas respectively. \nDorcas once wore a moonflower in her hair (Shadow XXX). If the Sun is \nlike Christ, the Moon is like the Church, shining with reflected light. \nIn the context of these books, I would say it represents the followers \nof Sev (such as Dorcas, the prophetess, and the new society on Ushas)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who gave the order to escort/arrest her? Valeria? She acted so addle-brained\nat the end as to seem uncomprehending of Urth's doom-in-progress. Aside from\nthe generic value of exultant hostages to the autarchy, what made that\nparticular woman so important to Valeria that she merited special attention?\nThe Praetorians were the autarch's personal guards. Who but the autarch\n*could* command them? Inire? Sev had left him in charge of the Commonwealth\nwhen he went to Yesod, but that seems not to have lasted for long, otherwise\nValeria would not be on the throne. Inire seems not to have been around any\nmore.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The autarchy has always been heavily influenced, if not controlled, by \nthe Heirogrammates. I see no reason why Father Inire would not still be \naround, exerting influence behind the scenes. He's been around from the \nearliest days of the autarchy, so why not stay until the end? But the \npeople would never tolerate a direct rule by the hated \"cacogens.\" \nValeria was a necessary figurehead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nessus was already two days drowned when Sev saw the woman, and the House\nAbsolute was shortly to be inundated, so where was she being taken, and how?\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Atrium of Time was flooded, but she could be helped to get to the \nsunken lower levels that lead to the past, if necessary. But I tend to \nthink there were other time-travel mechanisms in the hidden part of the \nHouse Absolute. The first Catherine has to have escaped on her own, and \ntherefore needed inside knowledge (see below for a guess on where she \ngot this information)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When and where was she born? During the forty years Sev was gone?\n\nIf she was an exultant, then so were both of her parents. Who were they, and\ndo they appear anywhere in the Urth Cycle? (It seems odd that Ouen never\nmentioned that he was shacked-up with an exultant. And exultants didn't\nchoose to bury their dead on Citadel Hill. Of course, being buried before\nshe was born might make for an exception. Still, the Guild's victims were\nburied in the lower reaches, not up where the graves had monuments, which is\nwhere the grave of the woman whose body was stolen was located.)\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think she was born during the forty years Sev was gone. Because \nof this, her exact parentage is hard to trace. My guess is that she is a \ndescendant of Master Ultan (for his photographic memory, and for Sev's \nbeing reminded of her by the sight of Ultan in Shadow VI). She may also \nbe a descendant of Chatelaine Sancha from \"The Cat.\" Sancha had access \nto many of Father Inire's secrets as a favorite of his, and may have \npassed them on to her relatives. I note also that \"Cat\" is a nickname \nfor Catherine.\n\nI'm dropping the theory that she's the daughter of Valeria, who was a \nmere armigette. It would also make the time paradoxes much worse. \nValeria wouldn't be in a position to have Catherine without having \nmarried Sev.\n\nIf I'm right about the manipulation of the grave-robbing scene, the \ngrave's location was dictated by the expected path of Severian back from \nhis swimming accident. It doesn't have to be where she would normally be \nburied." } ] } ] }