{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5073", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5073, "subject": "Sev's common lineage", "messages": 52, "voices": 8, "first": "2008-06-29T05:25:42+00:00", "last": "2008-07-05T22:24:44+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20080629052543.6469A1A003A@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-29T05:25:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev's lineage is a problem which I'm sure Wolfe intended people to \ndrive themselves crazy over, and I don't think there's enough info \nto get really definitive. But on the flip side, I think he's \ninviting us to have fun making up stories, so what the hell ...\n\nI want Sev to be related to Casdoe and Li'l Sev. \"Casdoe\" is so \nsimilar to \"Dorcas\", with the syllables reversed. Li'l Sev asks Sev \nif he's his uncle, which I don't think makes a lot of sense unless \nLi'l Sev does in fact have an Uncle Sev. If I'm right and Fechin is \nDorcas' father, then at the very least the families have known each \nother for 70+ years.\n\nMost characters, even if relatively minor, get named. Two \nexceptions are Casdoe's father and Dorcas' husband. I don't know \nwhat the first was called, but I think I know the name of the \nsecond: Severian.\n\nHere's how it works. Say Fechin is Dorcas' father. The ages work \nout OK. Base-lining against the time when Sev left the Citadel, we \nhave Dorcas born 55-60 years previously (she died 40+ years ago, \naccording to her husband, and I think we can assume that Sev is 17-\n18). Rudesind was painted by Fechin as a boy; Rudesind is 70 years \n+ a boy's age old, say early 80's. Estimate Fechin as having been \nborn 85-90 years ago, so he had Dorcas when he was 30-40. \n\nCasdoe's father is a contemporary of Fechin, so he's 85-90 also. \nQuite old enough for Dorcas' husband, the old boatman, to in fact \nbe his son. Eg: say he has the old boatman when he's about 20, \nwhich makes the guy 65-70. \n\nIt's a very plausible story: Casdoe's father is close to Fechin, \nand obviously neighbors, at least when young. Their kids grow up \ntogether and marry each other.\n\nCasdoe must be a late offspring for her father: she has twins who \nseem to be about 6 years old. Say she was born 26 years ago; or \nwhen her father was around 60. Not impossible, of course, but it \ndoes perhaps suggest other things which I won't go into here.\n\nIn any case, this ties everybody together, and the guess of \n\"Severian\" as Dorcas' husband's name explains why Li'l Sev asked \nOur Sev if he was his uncle. Dorcas' husband is his uncle, on this \ntheory, and Li'l Sev presumably knows he has an uncle with this \nname. Our Sev and Li'l Sev are in fact second cousins." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4867869B.4010403@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-29T12:56:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<20080629052543.6469A1A003A@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nI want Sev to be related to Casdoe and Li'l Sev. \"Casdoe\" is so \nsimilar to \"Dorcas\", with the syllables reversed. Li'l Sev asks Sev \nif he's his uncle, which I don't think makes a lot of sense unless \nLi'l Sev does in fact have an Uncle Sev. If I'm right and Fechin is \nDorcas' father, then at the very least the families have known each \nother for 70+ years.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Usually Wolfe tries to provide a family resemblance between related \ncharacters. Fechin was \"a tall, wild boy with red hair on his hands, his \narms.\" Dorcas is gold-blonde, with no mention of hairiness. Sev and his \npotential sister Merryn aren't hairy either. Dorcas has artistic talent, \nbut I don't think that's enough of a connection.\n\nYou don't deal with b sharp's identification of Fechin with Father Inire \nand Rudesind. One or both of those could be true, given their \nmonkey-like characteristics. But if so, chances are that the alien could \nnot have children with human women.\n\nI'm not sold that \"Are you my uncle?\" means that little Sev knows of an \nuncle named Severian. He's just hoping for a relative to take care of \nhim since he lost his family, in my view." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080629131455.048052003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-29T13:14:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<4867869B.4010403@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:25:42 +1000 thalassocrat at nym.hush.com wrote:\nSev's lineage is a problem which I'm sure Wolfe intended people to " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "drive themselves crazy over, and I don't think there's enough info " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to get really definitive. But on the flip side, I think he's \ninviting us to have fun making up stories, so what the hell ...\n\nI want Sev to be related to Casdoe and Li'l Sev. \"Casdoe\" is so \nsimilar to \"Dorcas\", with the syllables reversed. Li'l Sev asks \nSev \nif he's his uncle, which I don't think makes a lot of sense unless " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Li'l Sev does in fact have an Uncle Sev. If I'm right and Fechin \nis \nDorcas' father, then at the very least the families have known \neach \nother for 70+ years.\n\nMost characters, even if relatively minor, get named. Two \nexceptions are Casdoe's father and Dorcas' husband. I don't know \nwhat the first was called, but I think I know the name of the \nsecond: Severian.\n\nHere's how it works. Say Fechin is Dorcas' father. The ages work \nout OK. Base-lining against the time when Sev left the Citadel, we " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "have Dorcas born 55-60 years previously (she died 40+ years ago, \naccording to her husband, and I think we can assume that Sev is 17-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "18). Rudesind was painted by Fechin as a boy; Rudesind is 70 years " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "+ a boy's age old, say early 80's. Estimate Fechin as having been \nborn 85-90 years ago, so he had Dorcas when he was 30-40. \n\nCasdoe's father is a contemporary of Fechin, so he's 85-90 also. \nQuite old enough for Dorcas' husband, the old boatman, to in fact \nbe his son. Eg: say he has the old boatman when he's about 20, \nwhich makes the guy 65-70. \n\nIt's a very plausible story: Casdoe's father is close to Fechin, \nand obviously neighbors, at least when young. Their kids grow up \ntogether and marry each other.\n\nCasdoe must be a late offspring for her father: she has twins who \nseem to be about 6 years old. Say she was born 26 years ago; or \nwhen her father was around 60. Not impossible, of course, but it \ndoes perhaps suggest other things which I won't go into here.\n\nIn any case, this ties everybody together, and the guess of \n\"Severian\" as Dorcas' husband's name explains why Li'l Sev asked \nOur Sev if he was his uncle. Dorcas' husband is his uncle, on this " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "theory, and Li'l Sev presumably knows he has an uncle with this \nname. Our Sev and Li'l Sev are in fact second cousins." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pushing this story along, let's make Catherine Ouen's sister. \nDorcas died in childbirth, after 4 years or so of marriage, during \npart of which Ouen was a toddler. If the child lived, she would be \nabout 40 when Sev leaves the Citadel. If it was a girl, she would \nhave been the right age to be Sev's mother: a couple of years \nyounger than Ouen.\n\nThe story: Old Boatman falls to pieces when Dorcas dies. Baby \nCatherine is taken by Dorcas' family - (ie, Fechin's family, in my \nstory, but Fechin as Dorcas' father isn't ssential for this part). \nOld Boatman slides down to skid row & is lost to them.\n\nFechin etc are the same kind of optimate family as Ava's. They are \nreligious; witness eg the notorious enamelled religious work which \nThecla requests, no doubt a piece produced by Fechin & son. Dorcas \nreborn seems to retain a religious sensibility. \n\nAgia seemes to know more about religious matters than you'd expect \nfrom somebody like her, and it's at least plausible that Agia & \nbrother are Dorcas' brother's grandchildren (their shop, inherited \nfrom their mother like the shop given by Fechin to Dorcas; an eye \nfor quality craft work; a hint of more education than you'd expect \nfrom guttersnipes etc.)\n\nSo Fechin's family may well have had the kind of long-standing \nrelationship wih the Pelerines which Ava describes as necessary for \nan optimate daughter to be accepted into the order. \n\nAs Ava, so Catherine. She joins the Pelerines, and however it \nhappens, she and Ouen meet, not realising they're siblings. Sev \nresults.\n\nThis doesn't seem to deliver us any exultant genes for Sev, but you \ncan't have everything :) Anyway, there's nothing which suggests any \nparticular exultant characteristics for Catherine, and it's hard \nfor me to imagine an exultant being sent to the torturers for any \ncrime less serious than treason or lese majesty." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080629132618.F0D1C2003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-29T13:26:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<20080629131455.048052003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:56:59 +1000 Dave Tallman \n wrote:\nAndrew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I want Sev to be related to Casdoe and Li'l Sev. \"Casdoe\" is so \nsimilar to \"Dorcas\", with the syllables reversed. Li'l Sev asks \nSev \nif he's his uncle, which I don't think makes a lot of sense \nunless \nLi'l Sev does in fact have an Uncle Sev. If I'm right and Fechin " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is \nDorcas' father, then at the very least the families have known \neach \nother for 70+ years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Usually Wolfe tries to provide a family resemblance between \nrelated \ncharacters. Fechin was \"a tall, wild boy with red hair on his \nhands, his \narms.\" Dorcas is gold-blonde, with no mention of hairiness. Sev \nand his \npotential sister Merryn aren't hairy either. Dorcas has artistic \ntalent, \nbut I don't think that's enough of a connection.\n\nYou don't deal with b sharp's identification of Fechin with Father " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Inire \nand Rudesind. One or both of those could be true, given their \nmonkey-like characteristics. But if so, chances are that the alien " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "could \nnot have children with human women.\n\nI'm not sold that \"Are you my uncle?\" means that little Sev knows \nof an \nuncle named Severian. He's just hoping for a relative to take care " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of \nhim since he lost his family, in my view." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fechin = Rudesind would mean Rudesind is lying about having been \npainted by him, and I don;t see any reason for Rudesind lying. \nFechin = Inire IMO is frankly absurd.\n\nOn the resemblance argument Sev couldn't be the grandchild of \nDorcas, so this argument has little weight. Red haired hairy great \ngrandfathers have dark depilated great grandchildren, routinely. \nPace Ultan's comments.\n\nMy Dorcas = child of Fechin story doesn't rely just on Dorcas' \nlittle artistic talents. The cloisonne trade of her father and \nbrother carry more weight with me. In these kinds of socieies you \ndon't make big money as a \"great artist\" without a patron and \nposition. I think it's very plausible that Fechin's son might \nenlist his father's talents in a trade making ornanments for well-\noff customers.\n\nAnyway, I'm not claiming any of this as anything like an absolute \ncertainty; I don't think that's possible. But it does make a lot \nmore sense to me than any other theory I've read." } ] }, { "message_id": "<003601c8da54$16c86900$a7d04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-30T01:53:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<20080629132618.F0D1C2003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew wrote:\nFechin = Rudesind would mean Rudesind is lying about having been \npainted by him, and I don;t see any reason for Rudesind lying. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You left yourself vulnerable to the self-portrait gambit. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fechin = Inire IMO is frankly absurd." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW, I agree. I'm sure I said so the first time that theory surfaced.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T03:23:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<003601c8da54$16c86900$a7d04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regarding Dave Tallman's Catherine scenario, I just have a gut feeling that if there is an \nexultant cell donor for the Catherine maids, Wolfe wouldn't be so unfair as to not toss her \nname out somewhere. Haven't found it and haven't had as much time to read and ponder \nthis as I'd like. I hope to soon. Having Sev do the healing of the beheading seems more \nplausible than Catherine (or is it Carina? or Lybe?).\n\nRoy writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nessus was already two days drowned when Sev saw the woman, and the House\nAbsolute was shortly to be inundated, so where was she being taken, and how?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My impression is that the woman Sev sees from the loggia is not from the future but rather\nbeing taken back to the past where she belongs. I think this because the woman in the pale\ngown in the coffin appears in the first chapter of the first book of the series and the woman\nSev sees from the loggia appears in UotNS, an afterthought book by Wolfe to help explain \nthe first four. I don't get the sense from the first 4 books that Catherine (or the coffin woman)\nis from the future, quite the opposite. I think Wolfe put the woman in UotNS on the Path of Air\nmostly to connect her to the Play and Countess Carina, (whom Dave, through her maids, has\nneatly connected to Catherine, even without the physical resemblance).\n\nSo anyway, if she is from the past, and weeping now, I think she is being brought back to face\nher necessary destiny, to be tortured to death in Allowin's Necklace. If forced to speculate on \nher crime I think it might be the same as her sister, Cyriaca's.\n\nIn my view, we are sort of told that Ultan's Library, which is at basement level, extends \nfrom the Citadel to the House Absolute (in hyperspace or something?). Rudesind's art gallery\nat ground level, has a similar connection. I see the Path of Air as a similar portal but with a \nterminus at the top of a Citadel tower (probably Valeria's). I'm sure Roy would argue that \nthe flood would have covered even the tallest Citadel tower but I'm happy enough with this\ninterpretation that I'm willing to consider a Wolfean goof there, or some sort of waterproofing\nby Father Inire. \n\nDave Tallman, I too have thought the morning glory comment was a clue. Didn't know moonflowers\nwere a kind of morning glory! And I still think maybe Valeria is daughter (perhaps clone) to Catherine.\n\nResponses to Roy:\nObviously Thais isn't in her 70's so if she is Thea's kaibit, she, like the loggia woman, had access to \nthe Path of Air or some other time portal. I'm not sure why else a girl in her 20's on flood day would\nhave any reason to give Severian knowing glances.\n\nThe \"self-portrait gambit\" (hah!) is not so loony...if we see an artist in a painting and there are brushes\npresent it could be a self-portrait. A quick Google produces numerous examples of artists who some very \nfamous like Chagall and Munch and one not quite so famous self-portrait with a brush by Russian artist\nNicolai Fechin. Coincidence? (triple hah!) You be the judge.\n\nMarc Aramini- Roy's nuts and bolts interpretations and insistance that real-world logic should be obeyed\nmight leave gaps in understanding. Surely Eschatology And Genesis is best interpreted as symbolic art\nwithin art rather than as a mechanical reality. Still without Roy, theories can (and do despite him) spiral \nout of control. I think his input is especially apt for a story written by an engineer." } ] }, { "message_id": "<48688CBB.7060205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T07:35:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nMy impression is that the woman Sev sees from the loggia is not from the future but rather\nbeing taken back to the past where she belongs. I think this because the woman in the pale\ngown in the coffin appears in the first chapter of the first book of the series and the woman\nSev sees from the loggia appears in UotNS, an afterthought book by Wolfe to help explain \nthe first four. I don't get the sense from the first 4 books that Catherine (or the coffin woman)\nis from the future, quite the opposite. I think Wolfe put the woman in UotNS on the Path of Air\nmostly to connect her to the Play and Countess Carina, (whom Dave, through her maids, has\nneatly connected to Catherine, even without the physical resemblance).\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since UotNS was an afterthought, Wolfe must have expected us to be able \nto construct the loggia scene from the play alone. What is the Contessa \ndoing in the play? She seems like a throw-away character until we \nexamine clues like her maid's names, the morning-glory reference, and \nMeschia's comment about her prolonging her life by wandering Urth and \nbeing unable to return home. Note that he said Urth, not Ushas; this \nimplies time-travel to the past." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So anyway, if she is from the past, and weeping now, I think she is being brought back to face\nher necessary destiny, to be tortured to death in Allowin's Necklace. If forced to speculate on \nher crime I think it might be the same as her sister, Cyriaca's.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This theory involves two or more time-travel trips to my one. I invoke \nOccam's razor; time-travel should be used sparingly in theories. Here \nis your scenario:\n\n1) An adulteress from the past time-jumps to the last days of the \nautarchy to escape her death sentence.\n2) In spite of an imminent flood, a squad of Praetorians escort her to \nthe already-flooded Atrium of Time so that she can be executed in her \nown time. (Why not just kill her then and there?)\n3) She sees Severian and for unknown reasons looks at him with mingled \nhope and fear.\n4) Back in the year before Sev is elevated she is buried in the \nnecropolis. For unknown reasons, she is interesting enough to Vodalus \nfor him to dig her up in person.\n\nI see no clues that give the impression that the Contessa had her origin \nin a different time period. In the play she's an ordinary exultant with \nan apartment in the House Absolute, a favorite of the current autarch. \nIn my theory she escapes to the past (actually she is forced to do \nthis), lives about seventeen years there as a prisoner, and finally dies \nto become the corpse in the necropolis. Her destiny is crucial enough \nto be enforced even when the whole world is about to collapse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini- Roy's nuts and bolts interpretations and insistance that real-world logic should be obeyed\nmight leave gaps in understanding. Surely Eschatology And Genesis is best interpreted as symbolic art\nwithin art rather than as a mechanical reality. Still without Roy, theories can (and do despite him) spiral \nout of control. I think his input is especially apt for a story written by an engineer.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is reasonable to look for clues in the books that go beyond \nreal-world logic. For example, there's no reason to believe Dr. Talos \nknew the history of the saint names he selected for the maids. That has \nto be a clue from Wolfe to us, or nothing. It's a meaningless \ncoincidence in the nuts-and-bolts world of the story.\n\nThe context of the argument was whether we should trust the play for \nspecific details about the real Contessa. The details may have been made \nup by Talos. On the other hand, Sev might have carried back to Canog a \nfew more specifics than what he told us in UotNS, such as the woman \nbeing of exultant height." } ] }, { "message_id": "<48688F48.9050302@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T07:46:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<48688CBB.7060205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nI see no clues that give the impression that the Contessa had her origin \nin a different time period. In the play she's an ordinary exultant with \nan apartment in the House Absolute, a favorite of the current autarch. \nIn my theory she escapes to the past (actually she is forced to do \nthis), lives about seventeen years there as a prisoner, and finally dies \nto become the corpse in the necropolis. Her destiny is crucial enough \nto be enforced even when the whole world is about to collapse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If this is true, wouldn't that mean that Vodalus (and the others who \npresumably later share her memories) would have knowledge of the future \nera's general public, like Agia disposing of him in a coup? Wouldn't he \nwant to stop that?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48689C77.2050105@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T08:42:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<48688F48.9050302@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nIf this is true, wouldn't that mean that Vodalus (and the others who \npresumably later share her memories) would have knowledge of the future \nera's general public, like Agia disposing of him in a coup? Wouldn't he \nwant to stop that?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Catherine might not have sufficient knowledge of the exact history of \nthe Vodalarii to give Vodalus forewarning about Agia. Vodalus might \nlearn that he didn't become autarch and that Sev did, but probably not \nthe exact reason for his downfall. Catherine had many unpleasant \nmemories of her years in the dungeon -- she probably went insane there, \nas most long-term prisoners did. That would mask any good information \nthat Vodalus might obtain. Before he could sort it all out, the memories \nwould fade.\n\nThe identity of the corpse in the necropolis with Catherine is not a \nrequirement for the rest of the theory to be true.\nCatherine could come back to the past, have Sev, and die soon after. Her \nkhabits need to stick around for years to be the Katharine players, but \nshe doesn't. I still support that part of the theory, however, because \nit gives an ending to Catherine's story and a reason for her khabits to \nbe there." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4868AA53.5050309@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T09:41:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<48689C77.2050105@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If this is true, wouldn't that mean that Vodalus (and the others who \npresumably later share her memories) would have knowledge of the \nfuture era's general public, like Agia disposing of him in a coup? \nWouldn't he want to stop that?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Catherine might not have sufficient knowledge of the exact history of \nthe Vodalarii to give Vodalus forewarning about Agia. Vodalus might \nlearn that he didn't become autarch and that Sev did, but probably not \nthe exact reason for his downfall. Catherine had many unpleasant \nmemories of her years in the dungeon -- she probably went insane there, \nas most long-term prisoners did. That would mask any good information \nthat Vodalus might obtain. Before he could sort it all out, the memories \nwould fade." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's pretty iffy, given the popularity of political assassination \nstories and the large numbers partaking of her memories. How likely \nwould they all be to miss it? I also don't see her madness masking \ndetails of Vodalus' future history if she is still able to express \nsuitable political sentiment to be chosen to bolster the loyalty of the \nVodalarii. Why would someone from 40 years post-Vodalus take up the \ncause in prison?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080630102934.AFB2E2003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T10:29:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<4868AA53.5050309@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A couple of other things I like about my little Sev-lineage story. \nFirst & most obviously, it explains Sev's silence about Catherine: \nhe's just not letting on that he's the product of an incestuous \nunion. We don't have to try to guess whether Cathreine committed \nsome discreditable crime that he's hiding.\n\nBut she probably was a bit of a thief; it seems to have run in the \nfamily, and it's hard to imagine that she was sent to the torturers \njust for running from the Pelerines. Fechin was always stealing \nstuff, according to Casdoe's father. Demure Dorcas herself seemed \nrather blase about the prospect of whoring and stealing her way \nback to Nessus from Thrax. Ouen had trouble with the law. Agia & \nbro, enough said. Sev of course is a murderer, as well as being a \nstealer of library books :)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4868CA33.20504@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T11:57:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<4868AA53.5050309@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nThat's pretty iffy, given the popularity of political assassination \nstories and the large numbers partaking of her memories. How likely \nwould they all be to miss it? I also don't see her madness masking \ndetails of Vodalus' future history if she is still able to express \nsuitable political sentiment to be chosen to bolster the loyalty of the \nVodalarii. Why would someone from 40 years post-Vodalus take up the \ncause in prison?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're assuming that all corpses that Voldalus took were like Thecla's \nand used for the same purpose. His grave-robbing was more general than \nthat. The citizen volunteers were concerned for their own dead; probably \nnot all of them were Voldalarii loyalists. Voldalus might not share a \nbody with future knowledge among a large number of followers.\n\nCatherine was about 20 when she came back (8 years from puberty, if we \nbelieve the play). Sev had reigned for 10 years and Valeria for 30. The \nassassination of Voldalus was old news in her time. She might not know \nmuch about it.\n\nBesides, her entry to the past was carefully planned by the \nHeirogrammates. No doubt she was programmed to carry out the affair with \nOuen, for example. Knowledge that might change the future could be \nremoved at that time, if not right before her death when it was decided \nto put her in the path of Sev and Vodalus." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4868D66C.4060308@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T12:49:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<20080630102934.AFB2E2003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A couple of other things I like about my little Sev-lineage story. \nFirst & most obviously, it explains Sev's silence about Catherine: \nhe's just not letting on that he's the product of an incestuous \nunion. We don't have to try to guess whether Cathreine committed \nsome discreditable crime that he's hiding.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And if my theory is correct and Sev is the product of a time-traveler he \nhas an even stronger motive for reticence: self-preservation. He doesn't \nwant to give his enemies scope for terminator scenarios which attack his \nmother before he can be conceived." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T12:59:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<4868D66C.4060308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave Tallman, to continue the debate:\n\nYes, my scenario involves two time travels, one forward, one back, while yours involves one. I \ndon't see mine being so very unparsimonious. Moreover, along with Jeff Wilson's concerns, your \nscenario seems to allow no explanation for why Catherine, as a complete stranger to all in the past,\nis imprisoned for years, cloned repeatedly then tortured to death. You imply yours does explain why\nshe is cloned but I don't see it. \n\nShe is chosen for her healing power genes? It seems clear to me that\nSeverian's gifts come from the gods and he is chosen for his role as Concilator and New Sun because\nof his decision making ability borne of a torturer upbringing. No coincidence that Ymar had a good shot\nand the kindly old bee keeping Autarch failed miserably.\n\nIn my scenario, Catherine is forced back to her own time to fulfill her destiny. Probably by Father Inire,\nwho, as you argue, is probably still the secret power behind the throne. If the Praetorians killed her in \nthe future, she wouldn't have the same destiny, wouldn't be in the coffin in the necropolis, Severian never\nmeets Vodalus or Thea, doesn't fall in love with Thecla, etc. etc. Surely Inire knew this.\n\nI still don't see that any effort should be made to find a source of exultant blood for Severian. He is tall\ncompared to most people but at least a head shorter than every single exultant he meets. In other words,\nhe is of armiger height just like (who I think are) his family members, Catherine, Cyriaca and Jolenta.\n\nThalassocrat:\n\nI agree that unnamed major characters such as Dorcas' husband, (and the St Katharine maid, \nand the Castellan) send up a red flag. Some of the age issues seem to bend your family theory almost to\nthe breaking point, though I've always thought of Casdoe as being in her 30's. Old boatman as Uncle \nSeverian is an interesting twist. Catherine and Ouen as siblings certainly fits my view of the incestuous \nfamily curse (as does the impending relationship between Ouen and Dorcas at the end of CotA).\n\nI do favor the view that Casdoe and little Sev are family members of Severian (though I tend to think\nthe relationship extends from Cyriaca and Herais, in Thrax). The incest angle here is with little Sev. \nSeverian twice gives unprompted denials of pedophila, once to us and once to Mannea (or was it Ava?).\nSeverian, with regard to the Old Leech, makes it very clear that an unprompted denial of pedophila is a \nsure sign of guilt." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080630131546.1D5512003D@mailserver7.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T13:15:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 22:59:47 +1000 b sharp \n wrote:\nSome of the age issues \nseem to bend your family theory almost to\nthe breaking point, though I've always thought of Casdoe as being \nin her 30's. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which ones in particular? The only odd part I can see is that \nCasdoe, whether in her 20's or in her 30's, seems young compared to \nher father's age. But that's not anything to do with my \ninterpretation: it's in the text. Assuming nobody's lying about \nanything, he certainly has to be over 80. \n\n(The question is: how old was Rudesind 70 years ago, when he was a \nboy? If he was 12, say, that makes him 82, and Fechin has to be \nolder than that, assuming your self-porttrait interpretation isn't \ncorrect. And Casdoe's father is a contemporary of Fechin's.)\n\nEverything I've made up seems to fit together quite nicely as far \nas I can see, in terms of ages. And it's certainly simpler (for \nwhatever that's worth) than having to bring in time travel and \nkhaibits." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T16:05:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear b sharp:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 30 June 20008, you wrote:\nI still don't see that any effort should\nbe made to find a source of exultant\nblood for Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian is the Epitome of Urth, and possibly of humanity, if Urth be\ntaken to be the epitome of the human worlds of the galaxy. The\nexultants are of Urth and have been since the time of the Monarch a\nthousand years earlier, but originated off-world. It's possible that\namong the reasons that Ymar and the Old Autarch failed is that they\ndid not represent the exultants. If Severian has exultant heritage,\nthen he does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He is tall compared to most people\nbut at least a head shorter than\nevery single exultant he meets. In\nother words, he is of armiger height . . ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have yet to see any evidence that armigers are, on average or as a\nwhole group, taller than optimates. Can anyone provide documentation,\nor is this an idea that has become enshrined in the common\nunderstanding without actually having any support in the text?\n\nI know it's been posited in the past that armigers may be taller than\noptimates because their social class is higher, which by this argument\nwould imply that they should, on average, be able afford to nourish\nthemselves better, but I don't think this follows. (My bet would be\nthat in reality there are many more wealthy optimate families than\narmigerous ones, and that many--even most--of the latter have declined\nand retain hardly more than their rank, and certainly very little\nwealth; but I wouldn't suggest that there's much evidence to back this\nview.) I think that the only systematic difference in height between\nclasses for which evidence exists is that between exultants and\neverybody else, and that the roots of exultant height precede their\nreturn to Urth. (I speculated many years ago on alternative\nexplanations for the exultants' height; that posting is in the\narchives.)\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48690B36.9070905@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T16:35:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<4868D66C.4060308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nAndrew says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A couple of other things I like about my little Sev-lineage story. \nFirst & most obviously, it explains Sev's silence about Catherine: \nhe's just not letting on that he's the product of an incestuous union. \nWe don't have to try to guess whether Cathreine committed some \ndiscreditable crime that he's hiding.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And if my theory is correct and Sev is the product of a time-traveler he \nhas an even stronger motive for reticence: self-preservation. He doesn't \nwant to give his enemies scope for terminator scenarios which attack his \nmother before he can be conceived." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian's remarks in the ms indicate he has no worries that anyone else \nwill ever see the book he is writing. I suppose that could be a ruse to \nfool spies, but then the entire Book is suspect as a tissue of lies and \nwe might as well give up now." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48690DD8.7020507@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T16:46:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Graverobbery (was Sev's common lineage)", "in_reply_to": "<4868CA33.20504@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's pretty iffy, given the popularity of political assassination \nstories and the large numbers partaking of her memories. How likely \nwould they all be to miss it? I also don't see her madness masking \ndetails of Vodalus' future history if she is still able to express \nsuitable political sentiment to be chosen to bolster the loyalty of \nthe Vodalarii. Why would someone from 40 years post-Vodalus take up \nthe cause in prison?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You're assuming that all corpses that Voldalus took were like Thecla's \nand used for the same purpose. His grave-robbing was more general than \nthat. The citizen volunteers were concerned for their own dead; probably \nnot all of them were Voldalarii loyalists. Voldalus might not share a \nbody with future knowledge among a large number of followers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-What else would Vodalus be doing with freshly dead bodies of specific \npeople?\n-The volunteers are likely on guard against graverobbers in general, as \nthere are other motives that wouldn't apply to Vodalus (anatomy studies, \nthaumaturgy, fencing of grave goods).\n- If the information is likely to be missed for whatever reason,it would \nbe vital to share a body known to contain future knowledge among as many \nfollowers as possible to ensure that that future knowledge is recovered \nfor the cause." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40806301008o3cf7fc00n4fc049de1bdd5719@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T17:08:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<4868D66C.4060308@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nYes, my scenario involves two time travels, one forward, one back, while yours involves one. I\n\ndon't see mine being so very unparsimonious. Moreover, along with Jeff Wilson's concerns, your\nscenario seems to allow no explanation for why Catherine, as a complete stranger to all in the past,\nis imprisoned for years, cloned repeatedly then tortured to death. You imply yours does explain why\n\nshe is cloned but I don't see it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the Commonwealth, long prison sentences are usually the result of\nconfusion and neglect, as witness the waiting room prison in the House\nAbsolute. Sev says something similar about the insane long-term prisoners in\nthe third level. Catherine's lack of contemporary contacts actually works\nagainst her. She might be arrested on a minor offence like breaking Pelerine\nvows or stealing from them. The police try to check out her background and\nfind that she's nobody, yet clearly of exultant blood. She is sent to the\nCitadel prison, with instructions to keep her alive until the Autarch has\ntime to deal with her. He never gets around to it.\n\nThe guild, in literal-minded obedience, extends her life using khabits.\nSince they have to maintain the khabits (off-site, since they aren't\ntechnically prisoners), the guild decides to put them to work in the annual\nFeast of St. Katharine. Having an identical maid year after year will\nincrease the mystery and awe for the new apprentices.\n\nCatherine-1's child, Sev-1, goes on to show promise of bringing the New Sun,\nso time-travelling interference begins. Someone investigates and finds his\nmother in prison. A plot is hatched to bring him into contact with her body;\ntherefore she is finally executed. The original plan may not have predicted\nexactly what happened with Vodalus, Thea, and Thecla -- that seems very\nfar-fetched. Perhaps they were testing the possibility that he could\nresurrect his mother, just as (in my theory) they later tested him with the\nbeheaded Katharine.\n\nIn my scenario, Catherine is forced back to her own time to fulfill\nher destiny. Probably by Father Inire," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "who, as you argue, is probably still the secret power behind the throne. If the Praetorians killed her in\nthe future, she wouldn't have the same destiny, wouldn't be in the coffin in the necropolis, Severian never\n\nmeets Vodalus or Thea, doesn't fall in love with Thecla, etc. etc. Surely Inire knew this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Careful of the time paradox here. Catherine can't be forced to fulfill her\ndestiny the first time, because her destiny can't be known until it has\nhappened once. Before the fact, it's highly uncertain what a meeting with\nVodalus in the necropolis will do to Sev's life. If the graveyard scene is\nthe result of temporal interference, then Sev1 somehow got sent north (or\nran away there) even without that meeting, and went on to become Autarch by\nchance. I like Andrew's suggestion that the dog Triskelle was more deeply\ninvolved. Say Sev1 was seen feeding a pet in the oubilette, and he knew the\ndog would be killed. He might escape with Triskelle and run north to become\na soldier, eventually meeting the Autarch at the front.\n\nSending Catherine back to bear Sev is crucial, well-worth the time of\nseveral Praetorians on flood day. Sending her back to be a corpse in the\ncemetary? Why bother? Any other corpse of interest to Vodalus would do just\nas well.\n\nI still don't see that any effort should be made to find a source of\nexultant blood for Severian. He is tall" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "compared to most people but at least a head shorter than every single exultant he meets. In other words,\nhe is of armiger height just like (who I think are) his family members, Catherine, Cyriaca and Jolenta." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Being a cross between an exultant and a commoner (Ouen) would also make him\nshorter.\n\nI agree that unnamed major characters such as Dorcas' husband, (and\nthe St Katharine maid," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and the Castellan) send up a red flag. Some of the age issues seem to bend your family theory almost to\nthe breaking point, though I've always thought of Casdoe as being in her 30's. Old boatman as Uncle\n\nSeverian is an interesting twist. Catherine and Ouen as siblings certainly fits my view of the incestuous\nfamily curse (as does the impending relationship between Ouen and Dorcas at the end of CotA)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What evidence is there for Ouen/Catherine being an incestuous relationship?\nThere's a lot of guesswork in this theory about Ouen's losing track of his\nsibling. I don't see the merit in trying to bring in as much incest as\npossible into Sev's family tree." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40806301035o614facf2s3c206efdcf5c6beb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T17:35:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40806301008o3cf7fc00n4fc049de1bdd5719@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nSeverian's remarks in the ms indicate he has no worries that anyone else\nwill ever see the book he is writing. I suppose that could be a ruse to\nfool spies, but then the entire Book is suspect as a tissue of lies and\nwe might as well give up now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that reference was to the copy he sealed in a lead casket and\nlauched into space/time. There was another copy, the one he sent to Master\nUltan's library. Well-connected people like Thecla could request books from\nthere, so it could certainly be read." } ] }, { "message_id": "<003601c8dae9$66a9d360$78ce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-30T19:42:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40806301035o614facf2s3c206efdcf5c6beb@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mark Millman quoted and wrote:\nHe is tall compared to most people\nbut at least a head shorter than\nevery single exultant he meets. In\nother words, he is of armiger height . . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have yet to see any evidence that armigers are, on average or as a\nwhole group, taller than optimates. Can anyone provide documentation,\nor is this an idea that has become enshrined in the common\nunderstanding without actually having any support in the text?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The latter, I'm afraid. As you say:\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I think that the only systematic difference in height between\nclasses for which evidence exists is that between exultants and\neverybody else, [snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The armigers are a social class, and that class is not defined by\ncrossbreeding between exultants and ordinary humans. When such crossbreeding\ndoes occur, the offspring are automatically excluded from the exultant class\nbut do not, by default, become an armiger. Such offspring often produce\npeople of greater than average height, such as the fat guy outside Agilus'\ncell who was taller than Severian, referred to as \"surely the illegitimate\nson of some exultant\". (SHADOW, XXX) IIRC, Gurloes also makes reference to\nsome tall person as being an exultant's bastard. I can prove your point with\na quote from Agia to Sev.\n\n\"To confess the truth, I wanted them to go on thinking you might be an\narmiger. Armigers go about in fancy dress so much because they're always\ngoing to fetes and tournaments, and you have the face. That's why I thought\nso myself when I first saw you. And you see, if you were, then I was someone\nthat somebody like that, an armiger and probably the bastard of an exultant,\nmight care for.\" (ibid., XIX)\n\nIf you will pardon my tendency to read what the text actually says, rather\nthan what I might like it to say, it seems perfectly obvious to me that Agia\nfound it necessary to distinguish between armiger dandies and exultant\nbastards. In context, when she first saw him outside the rag shop wearing\nhis torturer's cloak, she thought he was an armiger in costume. His height\nwas just the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.\n\nFWIW, Valeria was an armiger, but I don't believe she was unusually tall.\nNeither did Sev note that Lomer or Nicarete, also armigers, were\nparticularly tall.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c8daee$335c0780$85d14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-06-30T20:16:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<003601c8dae9$66a9d360$78ce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nI still don't see that any effort should be made to find a source of\nexultant blood for Severian. He is tall compared to most people but at least\na head shorter than every single exultant he meets. In other words, he is of\narmiger height just like (who I think are) his family members, Catherine,\nCyriaca and Jolenta.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh, Jolenta ain't no armiger, if that is what you are implying. She is\nspecified in the appendixes to CLAW to be one of the \"commonality\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Wells", "address": "adavid_wells at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T20:36:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c8daee$335c0780$85d14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Mark Millman\" >Dear b sharp: >On Monday 30 June 20008, you wrote: >> I still don't see that any effort should>> be made to find a source of exultant>> blood for Severian. >Severian is the Epitome of Urth, and possibly of humanity, if Urth be>taken to be the epitome of the human worlds of the galaxy. The>exultants are of Urth and have been since the time of the Monarch a>thousand years earlier, but originated off-world. It's possible that>among the reasons that Ymar and the Old Autarch failed is that they>did not represent the exultants. If Severian has exultant heritage,>then he does." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt seems to me that it could be seen exactly the opposite way round.\n \nThe exultants are not really Of This Urth. You point out that they originated off-world.\n \nAs others have said, the mating of Men and Monsters (or Angels?), and genetic engineering in general,\nseems to be generally disparaged.\nPerhaps it was necessary for Severian to be of the common(er) people?\n \nnewt\n \n_________________________________________________________________\n\nhttp://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000002ukm/direct/01/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-06-30T20:54:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Mr. Wells," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Monday 30 June 2008, you quoted and wrote:\nI still don't see that any\neffort should be made to\nfind a source of exultant\nblood for Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian is the Epitome of Urth, and\npossibly of humanity, if Urth be tak-\nen to be the epitome of the human\nworlds of the galaxy. The exultants\nare of Urth and have been since the\ntime of the Monarch a thousand\nyears earlier, but originated off-world.\nIt's possible that among the reasons\nthat Ymar and the Old Autarch failed\nis that they did not represent the ex-\nultants. If Severian has exultant heri-\ntage, then he does." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me that it could be seen exactly the\nopposite way round." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed it could, depending on what interpretation you prefer. To go\nback to Mr. Tallman's statement, I don't really think that there's any\nneed to make an effort to find a source of exultant blood for\nSeverian; I think that Wolfe tells us he has it, and argument to the\ncontrary is over-interpretation. But if a reason for effort were\nneeded, the interpretation I've proposed suggests one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The exultants are not really Of This Urth. You\npoint out that they originated off-world." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed I do. Please remember, however, that they're a strain -of\nhumanity- that diverged off-world, and that they have integrated\nthemselves into the life of the Commonwealth and, presumably, the\nother states of Urth as well. (For example, there's some evidence to\nsuggest that exultant bloodlines persist in Ascia.) Having done so,\nthey've returned to being part of the humanity of Urth. At the very\nleast, we know that they're not a distinct species of humans, since\nthey can interbreed with the commonality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As others have said, the mating of Men and Mon-\nsters (or Angels?), and genetic engineering in\ngeneral, seems to be generally disparaged. Per-\nhaps it was necessary for Severian to be of the\ncommon(er) people?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps it is. I doubt that you will be surprised to learn that I\nprefer my own interpretation, to the (slight) extent that I think it's\nrelevant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "newt" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Best,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001b01c8db31$d4c32b60$52cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-01T04:20:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp quoted and wrote:\nNessus was already two days drowned when Sev saw the woman, and the House\nAbsolute was shortly to be inundated, so where was she being taken, and\nhow?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Wolfe put the woman in UotNS on the Path of Air mostly to connect\nher to the Play and Countess Carina, (whom Dave, through her maids, has\nneatly connected to Catherine, even without the physical resemblance).<<\n[snip]\nMarc Aramini- Roy's nuts and bolts interpretations and insistance that\nreal-world logic should be obeyed might leave gaps in understanding. Surely\nEschatology And Genesis is best interpreted as symbolic art within art\nrather than as a mechanical reality.<< [snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I find ironic in your disagreement with Dave Tallman is that his\nidentification of the woman in the loggia with the Countess in the Play is\ndue, in part, to trying to \"map\" (my term) information garnered about the\nCountess in the Play onto the loggia woman (who is presumed to be\nCatherine), such as her age. The numbers in the Play, if the \"map\" is valid,\nand real-world logic force him to the conclusion that the loggia woman was\nborn during the forty years Sev was gone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In my view, we are sort of told that Ultan's Library, which is at\nbasement level, extends from the Citadel to the House Absolute (in\nhyperspace or something?). Rudesind's art gallery at ground level, has a\nsimilar connection. I see the Path of Air as a similar portal but with a\nterminus at the top of a Citadel tower (probably Valeria's).<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the Play, the Praetorians were only escorting the Countess to her suite\nafter Meschia had knocked her down. She reappeared in another scene with the\ntorturers, but she was not there to be tortured, and wasn't. That's not a\nvery good map from which particulars of Catherine's life can be\nextrapolated.\n\nNo one is going to get to have it both ways. Either mapping an Urth Cycle\ncharacter to someone in the Play is valid, or it isn't. You can't pick which\nliteral items suit a given theory and dismiss whatever doesn't fit with so\nmuch hand waving about symbolism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Responses to Roy:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Obviously Thais isn't in her 70's so if she is Thea's kaibit, she, like the\nloggia woman, had access to the Path of Air or some other time portal. I'm\nnot sure why else a girl in her 20's on flood day would have any reason to\ngive Severian knowing glances.<<\n\nAre there any characters in the Urth Cycle who *don't* have access to one of\nthese increasingly ubiquitous and textually elusive time machines? Why on\nUrth would anyone have had any reason to preserve one of the Old Autarch's\nold whores by spiriting her away in time somewhere, so she can pop up on\nUshas fifty years later?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9089.72.171.0.146.1214886303.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-01T04:25:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<001b01c8db31$d4c32b60$52cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are there any characters in the Urth Cycle who *don't* have access to one\nof these increasingly ubiquitous and textually elusive time machines?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there's just the one, in Father Inire's apartments in the House\nAbsolute.\n\nSo no, not everyone, but people who know the House Absolute well would.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4869D3DB.3020301@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-01T06:51:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<001b01c8db31$d4c32b60$52cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nIn the Play, the Praetorians were only escorting the Countess to her suite\nafter Meschia had knocked her down. She reappeared in another scene with the\ntorturers, but she was not there to be tortured, and wasn't. That's not a\nvery good map from which particulars of Catherine's life can be\nextrapolated.\n\nNo one is going to get to have it both ways. Either mapping an Urth Cycle\ncharacter to someone in the Play is valid, or it isn't. You can't pick which\nliteral items suit a given theory and dismiss whatever doesn't fit with so\nmuch hand waving about symbolism.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I can have it both ways very easily. We know for a fact that \nSev saw a woman in the loggia near the Path of Air, and certain details \nabout her. We also know that the play contains a description of a \nsimilar scene. The first issue is whether this is coincidence or whether \nSev carried a description of this event back to the past. I think we are \nforced to the conclusion that he did. A description of a throne-room \nscene with the autarch, the giant Nod (Baldanders), Jahi (Juturna), and \nthe prophetess is also uncannily accurate to the point where it cannot \nbe coincidence.\n\nAt issue is whether Sev told Canog (or someone who told Canog) \nadditional details besides the ones in UotNS:\n1) Her height. Is she an exultant?\n2) Her apparent age. Is she young?\n3) Her physical condition. Is she injured?\n\nDetails like this were either told by Sev or invented by Talos. I choose \nto accept them as possible new facts. Sev might also have deduced that \nshe was his mother from investigations he didn't tell us about, and he \nmight have chosen to provide cryptic hints about this to Canog.\n\nTalos used the raw material to weave a consistent back-story for \npurposes of his play. He is more likely to be correct about physical \ndetails than about the context. We also, with more information, can \nweave a consistent back-story for our theories. We are free to accept \nhis physical details and ignore his context. As another example, we can \naccept the giant Nod as Baldanders without believing that Baldanders had \na character and motivations exactly like the ones given him in the play." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4869DC3E.4030806@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-01T07:26:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<9089.72.171.0.146.1214886303.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nAre there any characters in the Urth Cycle who *don't* have access to one\nof these increasingly ubiquitous and textually elusive time machines?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there's just the one, in Father Inire's apartments in the House\nAbsolute.\n\nSo no, not everyone, but people who know the House Absolute well would." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What means of time-travel or at least exceptional egress from the \nhere-and-now are there in the Book vs _Urth_?\n\nIn roughly ms order:\n\n - The vicinity of the Atrium of Time\n - Inire's mirrors\n - Inire's Botanical Gardens\n - Jonas' ship and other relativistic vessels\n - Master Ash's home\n - FB&O's saucer\n - The Ship Tzadkiel\n - Alpheta's portal\n - the \"Corridors of Time\"/\"the Brook Madregot\"\n\nand Hethor may have a set of mirrors.\n\nSo - one \"time machine\" in the House Absolute, one \"time complex\" in the \nCitadel, publicly accessible doorways to other times in the Botanical \nGardens, Severian broke Ash's place, and the rest require intervention \nby Yesodis, luck to catch one coming by, stealing a spaceship, or \nincredible psychic powers.\n\nPiece o' cake!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4869EC72.6080401@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-01T08:36:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40806301035o614facf2s3c206efdcf5c6beb@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:\n\n Severian's remarks in the ms indicate he has no worries that anyone else \n\n will ever see the book he is writing. I suppose that could be a ruse to \n fool spies, but then the entire Book is suspect as a tissue of lies and \n we might as well give up now.\n\n\nI think that reference was to the copy he sealed in a lead casket and \nlauched into space/time. There was another copy, the one he sent to \nMaster Ultan's library. Well-connected people like Thecla could request \nbooks from there, so it could certainly be read." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is interesting in that the one \"no one would read\" is apparently \nsupposed to be the one that eventually made its way back to \"G.W.\"\n\nSay, maybe that \"explains\" some of the discrepancies in the Book vs \nURTH. The casket-copy was dashed off in a hurry on shipboard, rather \nthan at leisure in the clerestory, so it would likely have uncaught \nerrors from a lack of time to review and inaccuracies from going by \nSev's memory of the scribing of the original draft instead of by the \nmemory of the original events, with both internal and external \ndistractions, etc. URTH, meanwhile, is again writ at leisure in a \nconsiderably simplified environment." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<486A081D.908@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-01T10:34:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<4869D3DB.3020301@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is another level of clues in the play that I take as direct hints \nfrom Wolfe to the reader. Saint's names with significant history are of \nthis type IMOP. I looked up the name Carina in more detail:\n\nSt. Melasippus\nMartyr with Carina, his wife, and Anthony, their son. They suffered at \nAncyra. Melasippus and Carina died under torture. Anthony was beheaded.\n\nSo St. Carina was a mother, and her son is associated with decapitation. \nThat's another good Catherine hint." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-01T12:01:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<486A081D.908@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thalassocrat wrote: \nThe only odd part I can see is that Casdoe, whether in her 20's or in her 30's, seems young \ncompared to her father's age. But that's not anything to do with my interpretation: it's in the \ntext. Assuming nobody's lying about anything, he certainly has to be over 80. (The question \nis: how old was Rudesind 70 years ago, when he was a boy? If hewas 12, say, that makes him\n82, and Fechin has to be older than that, assuming your self-porttrait interpretation isn't correct.\nAnd Casdoe's father is a contemporary of Fechin's.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, having a man in his 80's father someone in their 20's-30's is possible but a stretch. I was \nonly hinting that my ideas might help: if Fechin is Dorcas' husband instead of father and the \nportrait of Rudesind is a self-portrait, then it rolls everyone's age back about 15 years and the \nages fit nicely. That might mess up other aspects of your scenario though, not sure." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-01T12:42:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy, I not sure I understand the point of your previous post. Are you saying you see no \nconnection between Severian's loggia scene and the Contessa's story in the play? If so \nthat almost defies belief. I would think even the most tunnel-visioned skeptic could see \nthe similarities between those scenes.\n\nRegarding this statement:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are there any characters in the Urth Cycle who *don't* have access to one of\nthese increasingly ubiquitous and textually elusive time machines? Why on\nUrth would anyone have had any reason to preserve one of the Old Autarch's\nold whores by spiriting her away in time somewhere, so she can pop up on\nUshas fifty years later?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't find them elusive and I think time \"portal\" is a more apt description than \"machine\".\nMaster Ash's house is the archetype; a labyrinthine entranceway to a vertical structure. \nIs there any quibble about its function? I see obvious copies of it in the Jungle Garden and \nAtrium of Time tower. I assume Thais or Catherine or any other character who seems out \nof place in time would have no trouble climbing stairs or a ladder without assistance. \nMoreover the suggestions of horizontal portals connecting the House Absolute to the Citadel \nand even to the Botanic Garden and House Azure suggest to me that many could have access\nif they wandered to the right place (as Sev and Jonas wandered to Inire's Mirror room). Sev's\ndiscussion in UotNS of the many who managed to get into the Secret House supports this." } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080701130632.495A01A003A@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-07-01T13:06:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:01:06 +1000 b sharp \n wrote:\nThalassocrat wrote: \n\nYes, having a man in his 80's father someone in their 20's-30's \nis possible but a stretch. I was \nonly hinting that my ideas might help: if Fechin is Dorcas' \nhusband instead of father and the \nportrait of Rudesind is a self-portrait, then it rolls everyone's \nage back about 15 years and the \nages fit nicely. That might mess up other aspects of your scenario " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "though, not sure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm, I must be missing something. How does this roll people's ages \nback by 15 years? We have Rudesind a boy 70 years ago, so I guess \nhe has to be around 80. We have Dorcas born 55-60 years ago (her \nhubby has been trawling for her for 40 years or so, he says, when \nhe meets Sev, who I assume is 17-18). So if nobody's lying in any \nof that, Dorcas is 20+ years junior to Rudesind, and even if he's \nFechin, that surely makes her too old to be the quiet girl of \nCasdoe's father's story. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-01T17:11:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<20080701130632.495A01A003A@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry Thalassocrat I think my brain has been to distracted and addled this \nweek to write a good post. I'll get back when I can.\n\nFWIW- In the vein of of a Thais connection to Thea's kaibit, I recently found that St. Thais \nwas a reformed prostitute. Also, she shares a feast day with St. Pelagia. Also there is a\nnovel and opera about her with cenobite monks and a character names Palemon. Maybe\nall that was observed before? Not sure what to make of it. Maybe Dave Tallman has some \nideas?\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<486A6A5E.5070405@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-01T17:33:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nRoy, I not sure I understand the point of your previous post. Are you saying you see no \nconnection between Severian's loggia scene and the Contessa's story in the play? If so \nthat almost defies belief. I would think even the most tunnel-visioned skeptic could see \nthe similarities between those scenes.\n\nRegarding this statement:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are there any characters in the Urth Cycle who *don't* have access to one of\nthese increasingly ubiquitous and textually elusive time machines? Why on\nUrth would anyone have had any reason to preserve one of the Old Autarch's\nold whores by spiriting her away in time somewhere, so she can pop up on\nUshas fifty years later?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't find them elusive and I think time \"portal\" is a more apt description than \"machine\".\nMaster Ash's house is the archetype; a labyrinthine entranceway to a vertical structure. \nIs there any quibble about its function? I see obvious copies of it in the Jungle Garden and \nAtrium of Time tower. I assume Thais or Catherine or any other character who seems out \nof place in time would have no trouble climbing stairs or a ladder without assistance. \nMoreover the suggestions of horizontal portals connecting the House Absolute to the Citadel \nand even to the Botanic Garden and House Azure suggest to me that many could have access\nif they wandered to the right place (as Sev and Jonas wandered to Inire's Mirror room). Sev's\ndiscussion in UotNS of the many who managed to get into the Secret House supports this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev's movements in the Houses seem to be under manipulation by Inire, \nfor example the forced perspective room covered by the drop-down \npainting is explicitly his work. It's possible he similarly employs \ntranscendent doorways that are only there in order to steer Severian \nover long distances, and would not necessarily be available for anyone's \nuse." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40807011112t3731f884ra7510e3e33e2a9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-01T18:12:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<486A6A5E.5070405@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bsharp wrote:\nFWIW- In the vein of of a Thais connection to Thea's kaibit, I recently\nfound that St. Thais\nwas a reformed prostitute. Also, she shares a feast day with St. Pelagia.\nAlso there is a\nnovel and opera about her with cenobite monks and a character names\nPalemon. Maybe\nall that was observed before? Not sure what to make of it. Maybe Dave\nTallman has some\nideas?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are two different legends for St. Pelagia. (\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Pelagia)\nSaint Pelagia is an Antiochene saint, a virgin of fifteen years, who chose\ndeath by a leap from the housetop rather than dishonour.\nThe legend of the Saint Pelagia (sometimes called *Margarito*) who was a\ncourtesan is famous.\n\nThe two legends fit nicely with the chatelaine/kaibit relationship, since\nsome kaibits moonlight at the House Azure.\n\nSt. Pega herself is part of a pair with her brother, St. Guthlac. She was\nsent away from her brother's island when the Devil appeared in her form to\ntempt him.\n\nI like the Thais = Thea's explanation I've seen. Saint Thea has a pairing in\nher history. She was bound together with St. Valentina and burned at the\nstake.\n\nThais seems much too young to be the kaibit Sev saw at the House Azure, but\nperhaps she is another kaibit of that line who was told of the encoun\nter with Sev by her clone sisters. She doesn't want the others to know\nanything about her history, so she wishes Sev to say nothing. I'll reject\ntime-travel for her as an unnecessary complication. Sev doesn't identify her\nas the same person, anyway." } ] }, { "message_id": "<002501c8dbba$1adc3be0$65d24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-01T20:36:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40807011112t3731f884ra7510e3e33e2a9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nRoy, I not sure I understand the point of your previous post. Are you\nsaying you see no\nconnection between Severian's loggia scene and the Contessa's story in the\nplay? If so\nthat almost defies belief. I would think even the most tunnel-visioned\nskeptic could see\nthe similarities between those scenes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course they are similar, but that's not the point. I find it ironic that\nyou accept many of Dave's undemonstrated (and textually undemonstrable)\nconclusions derived from projecting onto Severian's mother particular\n\"facts\" about the play's Countess, while at the same time disagreeing with\nhim about those \"facts\", such as her exultant status and birth some thirty\nyears after Sev became autarch. You can't have it both ways; either he's\nright or he's not.\n\nDave takes the mention of the names of two people who are not even in the\nPlay and extrapolates a whole series of obliging khaibits, seventeen years\nfor Sev's mother in the nut-case lower level of the Matachin tower, her\nexecution and burial a year and a half before Sev's elevation (accomplished,\napparently, without his knowledge), all of this orchestrated by unseen\nHierogrammate agents and with the necessary complicity of the Guild and,\npresumably, the autarch they serve. He also requires an extra-textual trip\nin time to augment the Conciliator's speech for Canog's edification. It's\njust too great a leap and too much for me to swallow on faith." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding this statement:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are there any characters in the Urth Cycle who *don't* have access to one\nof\nthese increasingly ubiquitous and textually elusive time machines? Why on\nUrth would anyone have had any reason to preserve one of the Old Autarch's\nold whores by spiriting her away in time somewhere, so she can pop up on\nUshas fifty years later?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't find them elusive and I think time \"portal\" is a more apt\ndescription than \"machine\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Never mind the time machines and teleporters. Why would Thea's khaibit be on\nthat raft and a man with an eidetic memory not recognize her?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40807011558h8b613ccteed5dc3dee7a5bc6@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-01T22:58:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<002501c8dbba$1adc3be0$65d24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nDave takes the mention of the names of two people who are not even in the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Play and extrapolates a whole series of obliging khaibits, seventeen years\nfor Sev's mother in the nut-case lower level of the Matachin tower, her\nexecution and burial a year and a half before Sev's elevation\n(accomplished,\napparently, without his knowledge), all of this orchestrated by unseen\nHierogrammate agents and with the necessary complicity of the Guild and,\npresumably, the autarch they serve. He also requires an extra-textual trip\nin time to augment the Conciliator's speech for Canog's edification. It's\njust too great a leap and too much for me to swallow on faith." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The extra trip or trips back in time are not extra-textual:\n\"Often I have dreamed of going back, and perhaps sometime I shall. Certainly\nmore guests came to our aid when Zama broke our door than there was any\nreason to expect, and I would like to think that one or even several of them\nwere myself. Indeed it sometimes seems to me that I caught a glimpse of my\nown face in the candlelight that night.\" (Urth XXXII).\n\nI just extrapolated that Sev might have done some more talking to people,\nnot just gawking in the hallway at the inn. It solves an otherwise serious\ncontinuity error. And it need not be Canog himself who recorded the extra\ndetails. Any other written source would do for Talos to consult in writing\nhis play. Some other time traveller could have carried back the information,\nbut it's economical to use Sev himself since we have this reference.\n\nWe know that Catherine was confined in Matachin tower when she gave birth to\nSeverian. \"Perhaps I was too distant from myself, from the Severian of bone\nand flesh borne by Catherine in a cell of the oubliette under the Matachin\nTower.\" (Urth XLIV)\n\nThe idea that she was also the corpse in the necropolis is separable. If she\nwas not, she could die much sooner. There are a few difficulties explaining\nthe memories Vodalus and friends might ingest, so that part can be taken or\nleft IMOP. It could be any ordinary corpse, and the recollection of the\ngraveyard scene only suggested by the thought that Ultan has been \"buried\"\nin his underground library for years.\n\nWhere I insist on finding new evidence is in the names of the maids. It's\nnot \"two people who are not even in the Play,\" but three people, one of whom\nis protrayed and the other two called for by name. Why have the Contessa\ncall out those other names at all? Gratuitous details are suspect in Wolfe\nbooks. When I find that all three name beheaded saints, I want to tie it\ninto a theory. I also find that Saint Carina was a mother and her son was\nbeheaded. A sequence of beheaded women to me suggests the Feast of St.\nKatharine. The unaging look of the woman could be explained by a series of\nkhaibits. It could also be a single time-traveler, but I think you'd agree\nthat's worse.\n\nThere are other indications in the play that I have mentioned: the\nContessa's desire to get pregnant to save her life, and the morning-glory\nand moonflower metaphors. By themselves they might not mean much, but they\nadd to the case for the theory.\n\nOne more thought -- there's a mention in both BotNS and UotNA of the arches\nin the loggia which make Sev seem to appear and disappear to the Contessa.\n(\"I shifted from one arch to the next to keep them in view\" ). This may tie\nin with Master Ash -- he could only exist in a past where his future had a\ngood chance to occur. Catherine could have an alternating existence\ndepending on the varying chances of Sev bringing the New Sun. That might\nmake it interesting to keep her around for observation." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c8dbec$be04a780$6dce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-02T02:38:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40807011558h8b613ccteed5dc3dee7a5bc6@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nDave takes the mention of the names of two people who are not even in the\nPlay and extrapolates a whole series of obliging khaibits, seventeen\nyears\nfor Sev's mother in the nut-case lower level of the Matachin tower, her\nexecution and burial a year and a half before Sev's elevation\n(accomplished,\napparently, without his knowledge), all of this orchestrated by unseen\nHierogrammate agents and with the necessary complicity of the Guild and,\npresumably, the autarch they serve. He also requires an extra-textual\ntrip\nin time to augment the Conciliator's speech for Canog's edification. It's\njust too great a leap and too much for me to swallow on faith.\n\n\nThe extra trip or trips back in time are not extra-textual:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip of quote]\n\nYes, I am aware of that quote and there are other hints that Sev would make\ntrips in time, eventually. But the trip(s) to that inn and those other\nprospective trips are not related in the text of either of his manuscripts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We know that Catherine was confined in Matachin tower when she gave birth\nto\nSeverian. \"Perhaps I was too distant from myself, from the Severian of bone\nand flesh borne by Catherine in a cell of the oubliette under the Matachin\nTower.\" (Urth XLIV)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am *very* aware of that quote: It was the subject of some . . . spirited .\n. . debate not that long ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The idea that she was also the corpse in the necropolis is separable. If\nshe\nwas not, she could die much sooner. There are a few difficulties explaining\nthe memories Vodalus and friends might ingest, so that part can be taken or\nleft IMOP. It could be any ordinary corpse, and the recollection of the\ngraveyard scene only suggested by the thought that Ultan has been \"buried\"\nin his underground library for years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It could also have been the corpse of the mother of the unnamed volunteer\nwho said, \"I'm going to watch over my mother.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where I insist on finding new evidence is in the names of the maids. It's\nnot \"two people who are not even in the Play,\" but three people, one of\nwhom\nis protrayed and the other two called for by name. Why have the Contessa\ncall out those other names at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She had just been assaulted. For all we know it was just an interjection\nalong the lines of, \"Saints preserve us!\" or \"God help me!\". Abban invoked\nSt. Amand at the Inn of Lost Loves, but that's pretty feeble. I don't\nhave a problem with the maids having the names of martyred saints angle;\nit's the rest I balk at." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gratuitous details are suspect in Wolfe\nbooks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but sometimes a cigar is only a cigar. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When I find that all three name beheaded saints, I want to tie it\ninto a theory. I also find that Saint Carina was a mother and her son was\nbeheaded. A sequence of beheaded women to me suggests the Feast of St.\nKatharine. The unaging look of the woman could be explained by a series of\nkhaibits. It could also be a single time-traveler, but I think you'd agree\nthat's worse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Martyrdom, torture and beheadings are common to many Saints in the\ncatalogue, too many.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One more thought -- there's a mention in both BotNS and UotNA of the arches\nin the loggia which make Sev seem to appear and disappear to the Contessa.\n(\"I shifted from one arch to the next to keep them in view\" ). This may tie\nin with Master Ash -- he could only exist in a past where his future had a\ngood chance to occur. Catherine could have an alternating existence\ndepending on the varying chances of Sev bringing the New Sun. That might\nmake it interesting to keep her around for observation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The simplest explanation is the one given in both the Play and URTH. In the\nPlay she called the arches \"windows\". Just as Sev moved from arch to arch to\nkeep her in view as she was escorted along, so the Countess in the Play\nperceived the man's movement as shifting from window to window. No need to\ncomplicate matters. Strop that Razor!\n\nLook, I knew from your first few postings that you had been through the\narchives and were trying very hard to come up with something new to say\nabout all the stuff we have been arguing about here for years. That's\ncommendable on both counts. I am also aware that few of the things we argue\nabout here (and that's the right verb; it's seldom discuss) are amenable to\nclear-cut answers or it would have all been sorted out years ago. Hell, I\nthink there are some people here who won't even agree that Dorcas is\nSeverian's grandmother. Other people have their pet theories that owe more\nto imagination than the texts will allow, and no amount of contrary evidence\nor reasoning will dissuade them. You haven't asked my opinion, but I hope\nyou don't get carried away with trying too hard. FWIW.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-02T04:14:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<001001c8dbec$be04a780$6dce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy, in saying to me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find it ironic that you accept many of Dave's undemonstrated (and textually undemonstrable)\nconclusions derived from projecting onto Severian's mother particular\"facts\" about the play's \nCountess, while at the same time disagreeing with him about those \"facts\", such as her exultant\nstatus and birth some thirty years after Sev became autarch. You can't have it both ways; either he's\nright or he's not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nand to Dave:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hope you don't get carried away with trying too hard. FWIW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you are missing the point of the discussion. OF COURSE he can be both right and not right. He\ncan be simultaneously dead on correct, merely \"on to something\" as I described it, and way off track. \nThe judgement is in the domain of each individual reader here. And as I see it, the purpose of this sort \nof brainstorming activity is to bring up new fresh ideas and sift them, wheat from chaff. You have your \nrole as guardian of the text but perhaps others have different roles which are important...unless you are\nresigned to the the sad reality that all the mysteries of this story are either solved or remain ambiguous\nby design. After 12 years that might be the case but I can't shake a nagging feeling that there are still \na few solvable puzzles here. And I think open thinking and discussion is the only way to get to them.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-02T05:14:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave Tallman, to really give my theory about the Rudesind, Dorcas' husband and Fechin\na chance of plausibility, it must be understood that they are all versions of immortal, \nshape-shifting Father Inire. It is more of a thought exercise than a rock solid \"belief\" \nor something I \"buy into\" and I'm not so sure it is fully defensible. But, if I may submerge\n in it anyway for a post:\n\nThe scenario uses the model of the old Autarch, who serves as ruler, third bursar, pimp and\nseveral other roles in society. Where did he get the idea of doing that? If he, being human,\ncan play all those roles, I can imagine a shape-shifting immortal with access to time and space\nportals with the ability to play far more roles. It requires more deception than the old Autarch \nuses and requires that when the Inire is discussing a different version of himself he uses that \nversion's name instead of \"I\".\n\nWe could leave Rudesind out for now and focus on Dorcas' husband who says, \n\n\"..Father Inire had the gardeners plant the averns. I was here and saw it. Just a little man he\n is, with a wry neck and bow legs.\" \n\nI could translate to:\n \n\"I had the gardeners plant the averns. I was here and saw it. Just a little man I am, with a wry\n neck and bow legs\". \n\nAnd of course that description does fit Dorcas' husband speaking it. Severian specifically notes\nhis small size and bow legs. I notice Severian encounters both Isangoma and Dorcas' husband \nimmediately after telling the Father Inire-Domnina story. As you suggest, Dave, I think there \nare portions of this story which are meant as direct hints from author to reader without particular\nregard to the actual plot. And given Father Inire's apparent attraction to very young women, I \ndon't think his love for Dorcas is a contrivance for the New Sun at all. He really is sad and misses her. \nWe know that restoring life to the dead is not one of his race's powers but it is one of Severian's. \nThere might be a different purpose than the New Sun for manipulating Severian to the Lake of Birds.\n\n\nIf I was Roy I might ask why Severian, with the old Autarch's memories, doesn't know more about \nFather Inire and his many roles. I could try to invent an answer within the storyline but I think the\nbetter answer is: Because Gene Wolfe intends to trick us and leave us in the dark, half-hiding things. \nTantalizing us with edge-of-meaning and almost-comprehension as a technique for imbuing a timeless\nquality to his story. But to successfully do this there has to be a real solution most of the time. And \nthat's a view of Wolfe one either has or doesn't. That's the impression I get from studying so many of\nthe Wolfe interviews- that he isn't just splashing words on a page for effect. He has a tangible concept\nin mind as a basis for most of his vague, strange allusions.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<486B2FE9.6010708@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-02T07:36:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\n\nDave Tallman, to really give my theory about the Rudesind, Dorcas' husband and Fechin\na chance of plausibility, it must be understood that they are all versions of immortal, \nshape-shifting Father Inire. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Er, how do you explain Docas' husband being dead *and* immortal? Or the \nwell-connected Inire handicapping his earnest search for Dorcas' body by \n doing it manually and alone, one body at a time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"..Father Inire had the gardeners plant the averns. I was here and saw it. Just a little man he\n is, with a wry neck and bow legs.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This could be just ironic. The younger husband saw the scrawny Inire, \nthen became scrawny with age himself, but still remembers Inire as smaller." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<486B371E.80008@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-02T08:06:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<001001c8dbec$be04a780$6dce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nThe simplest explanation is the one given in both the Play and URTH. In the\nPlay she called the arches \"windows\". Just as Sev moved from arch to arch to\nkeep her in view as she was escorted along, so the Countess in the Play\nperceived the man's movement as shifting from window to window. No need to\ncomplicate matters. Strop that Razor!\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with that simple literal explanation, but I was looking beyond \nthat for a symbolic meaning. They both appear and disappear to each \nother, which I speculated could refer to the contingent appearance of \nMaster Ash.\n\nHere is another clue. Compare this, from UotNS:\n\"Hers was a lovely face of that complexion called olive and as smoothly \noval as an olive, to, with something in it that tore at my heart; and \nthough it was strange to me, I had the sensation of return once again. I \nfelt that in some lost life I had stood just where I was standing then; \nand that in that life I had seen her standing beneath me in just that \nway... If I had understood her expression at all, it had been one of \nmingled hope and fear, and perhaps she too had some sense of a drama \nbeing played upon a second occasion.\"\n\nto this, from \"House of Ancestors\":\n\"He could sense her beside him in the blackness; and unexpectedly, \noverwhelmingly, the certainty came to him that they had waited together \nlike this before, and that the sensation he now felt was familiar \nthrough countless repetitions.\"\n\nIn \"House of Ancestors\", the protagonist Joe interacts with robots that \ntap into the memories of his mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, \netc. They not only read these memories, but they somehow rewrite them \ninto the past. Joe gets these memories as part of himself through \nLamarkian inheritance. The science is suspect to me, but Wolfe's idea in \nthat story is that if one interacts with one's mother before the time of \none's conception, then there is a \"deja vu\" effect. I suggest a similar \nidea is being used here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " You haven't asked my opinion, but I hope you don't get carried away with trying too hard. FWIW.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As you know from our \"Seven American Nights\" debate, I do try very hard \nto support my theories. I'll try not to get carried away. :)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<486B3F05.80705@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-02T08:40:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire guises (was: Sev's common lineage)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\n\"..Father Inire had the gardeners plant the averns. I was here and saw it. Just a little man he\n is, with a wry neck and bow legs.\" \n\nI could translate to:\n \n\"I had the gardeners plant the averns. I was here and saw it. Just a little man I am, with a wry\n neck and bow legs\". \n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does he also have a wry neck (torticollis, a condition in which the head \nis held stiffly to one side)?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002d01c8dc7e$a3d38ec0$b6d14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-02T20:02:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage", "in_reply_to": "<486B371E.80008@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nI think you are missing the point of the discussion. OF COURSE he can be\nboth right and not right. He\ncan be simultaneously dead on correct, merely \"on to something\" as I\ndescribed it, and way off track.\nThe judgement is in the domain of each individual reader here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Amazing! Absolutely amazing! I don't know why such a democratic concept\neluded me. I stand corrected. All theories being equal, it follows that any\ngiven theory's validity should be determined by the perceptions and\nexpectations of the reader. If Schrodinger had fully realized that concept,\nhe could have spared that poor cat some anxious moments.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-05T03:57:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire guises", "in_reply_to": "<486B3F05.80705@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Back. Was away in NYC a few days.\n\nDave Tallman asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does he [Dorcas' husband] also [like Inire] have a wry neck (torticollis, a condition \nin which the head is held stiffly to one side)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know but all those years of poling could produce an awfully wry neck I think. \n BTW, some have concluded this character should be called \"Charon\" and \nthat mythological character was the son of Erebus and Night, a nice connecting\n tidbit if he is really greek god analog Father Inire.\n\n\nRoy posts in response to- The judgement (of value of a theory) is in the domain of \neach individual reader here.\n\nwith-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Amazing! Absolutely amazing! I don't know why such a democratic concept\neluded me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, since we are not voting I don't see what is democratic about it. Seems to me\nthis list consists of a group of individual autarchs, free to make whatever judgement\nthey wish. Is there a governing body which assesses the correctness of theories, of which \nI am not aware?\n\n\nJeff Wilson asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Er, how do you explain Docas' husband being dead *and* immortal? Or the \nwell-connected Inire handicapping his earnest search for Dorcas' body by \ndoing it manually and alone, one body at a time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um. well, if I must defend: Within this interpetation, Dorcas' husband/Father Inire isn't \nreally dead. Occasionally playing dead would be a necessary skill for an immortal guy\n who takes on many mortal human roles, yes? On his bier he is described by Severian\nas with a \"back so straight, his face in death, so youthful, that I hardly knew him. That's\n a rather odd thing to happen to a dead body (imo) unless the dead body is a shape \nchanger who wants his wife of many years ago to view him more as she remembered him.\n\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nMaking the world a better place one message at a time.\nhttp://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace" } ] }, { "message_id": "<486F015C.70200@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-05T05:06:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire guises", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Er, how do you explain Docas' husband being dead *and* immortal? Or the \nwell-connected Inire handicapping his earnest search for Dorcas' body by \ndoing it manually and alone, one body at a time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Um. well, if I must defend: Within this interpetation, Dorcas' husband/Father Inire isn't \nreally dead. Occasionally playing dead would be a necessary skill for an immortal guy\n who takes on many mortal human roles, yes? On his bier he is described by Severian\nas with a \"back so straight, his face in death, so youthful, that I hardly knew him. That's\n a rather odd thing to happen to a dead body (imo) unless the dead body is a shape \nchanger who wants his wife of many years ago to view him more as she remembered him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of the ways of telling a person is dead is that opposing muscle \ngroups are relaxed, so it would not be unusual for a person often in the \ngrip of strong emotion to look more youthful in death, or a wry necked \nperson to lay straighter now that the abnormal muscle tension is gone.\n\nAnd why would Inire spend years trolling alone, again?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-05T14:59:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire guises", "in_reply_to": "<486F015C.70200@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of the ways of telling a person is dead is that opposing muscle \ngroups are relaxed, so it would not be unusual for a person often in the \ngrip of strong emotion to look more youthful in death, or a wry necked \nperson to lay straighter now that the abnormal muscle tension is gone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And why would Inire spend years trolling alone, again?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff if you are trying to make argments for why Dorcas' husband might not\nbe Father Inire you are breaking down an open door. I agree, he might not\n be. But I think he could be. If you are trying to argue he couldn't possibly \nbe, that's a different story and you'll need more definitive proof, I think. \n\nIf he was Father Inire then I doubt he was really spending so much time poling \naround. More likely it is a designed act to draw Severian into resurrecting Dorcas. \nYep, he lies. But so does Severian, Apheta, Tzadkiel, even the old autarch who\nsays he doesn't lie.\n\nOn the other hand, who knows.... perhaps Father Inire, who has 1000 years to get\nhis work done has a lot of free time on his hands.\n\nYou seem to prefer prosaic explanations, in this case the similarities between \nDorcas' husband and Father Inire are explained by you as an attempt at character \ndialog irony by Wolfe. His young appearance in death is a sort of anti-rigor \nmortis that relaxes the muscles. There are other examples where you reject a\nfantastic explanation in favor of a humdrum one. Occam's razor as Roy likes to\ninvoke?\n\nFor me, Occam is a prinicple for real world applications. This is a story. Some authors\n are the sort that would spend pages finding incredible descriptive beauty in a rock or \nsomething. Gene Wolfe seems the opposite to me. He seems like a guy with a lot of \nfantastical ideas in his head who likes to veil them behind mundane and overly casual\ndescriptions sometimes.\n\nSince he is very careful about reavealing anything it is hard to know which portions of\nhis stories are veiled fantaticisms and which are really mundane. The one slip up I know\nof is where he seems to accidentally spill the beans in an interview that yes, VRT was\nwritten by a Shadow Child who has killed and replaced Marsch. With that as my model\nI am willing to guess that other hints at fantastic scenarios can be believed, if only you \nguess correctly.\n_________________________________________________________________\nIt’s a talkathon — but it’s not just talk.\nhttp://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_JustTalk" } ] }, { "message_id": "<486F9768.4060308@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-05T15:46:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire guises", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nIf he was Father Inire then I doubt he was really spending so much time poling \naround. More likely it is a designed act to draw Severian into resurrecting Dorcas. \nYep, he lies. But so does Severian, Apheta, Tzadkiel, even the old autarch who\nsays he doesn't lie.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, if Inire is really playing all these roles he must be lying. \nLikewise he can't be a full-time painting cleaner as Rudesind. He must \nalso know perfectly well where Dorcas is really located if he expects \nSev to stumble into her and resurrect her. The paper with the \ncoordinates he shows Sev must be a lie.\n\nOne detail that ought to be explained: Dorcas has a dream in which she \nis placed (or moved) in the Lake at a location near shore by an old man \nwho doesn't seem to know she is there. If this was Father Inire, he \nwould know. If it was a chant-caught \"Charon\" he might move her without \nknowing he did it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<486FADDF.2040908@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-05T17:22:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire guises", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nJeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One of the ways of telling a person is dead is that opposing muscle \ngroups are relaxed, so it would not be unusual for a person often in the \ngrip of strong emotion to look more youthful in death, or a wry necked \nperson to lay straighter now that the abnormal muscle tension is gone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And why would Inire spend years trolling alone, again?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff if you are trying to make argments for why Dorcas' husband might not\nbe Father Inire you are breaking down an open door. I agree, he might not\n be. But I think he could be. If you are trying to argue he couldn't possibly \nbe, that's a different story and you'll need more definitive proof, I think. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, you have no explanation to back up your earlier supposition then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You seem to prefer prosaic explanations, in this case the similarities between \nDorcas' husband and Father Inire are explained by you as an attempt at character \ndialog irony by Wolfe. His young appearance in death is a sort of anti-rigor \nmortis that relaxes the muscles. There are other examples where you reject a\nfantastic explanation in favor of a humdrum one. Occam's razor as Roy likes to\ninvoke?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Relaxation vs rigor mortis is a question of how long has he been dead. \nThe body relaxes immediately as soon as the nervous system stops \ndelivering signals, and RM doesn't begin to take up until hours later." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, Occam is a prinicple for real world applications. This is a story. Some authors\n are the sort that would spend pages finding incredible descriptive beauty in a rock or \nsomething. Gene Wolfe seems the opposite to me. He seems like a guy with a lot of \nfantastical ideas in his head who likes to veil them behind mundane and overly casual\ndescriptions sometimes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He goes the other way as well: the flying cathedral is really just a \ntent serving as a hot air balloon, and the magical painting is really \njust an optical illusion." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8ded9$f250a4e0$6fcf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-05T20:01:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire guises", "in_reply_to": "<486FADDF.2040908@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wroted and quote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And why would Inire spend years trolling alone, again?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff if you are trying to make argments for why Dorcas' husband might not\nbe Father Inire you are breaking down an open door. I agree, he might\nnot\n be. But I think he could be. If you are trying to argue he couldn't\npossibly\nbe, that's a different story and you'll need more definitive proof, I\nthink." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, you have no explanation to back up your earlier supposition then." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That doesn't matter. He cannot be proved wrong. In this school of\ntheorizing, whatever a character (particularly a character who is more than\none character) says that seems to support a given theory is to be accepted\nas true. Whatever that character (or characters) says that is inconvenient\nto or contradicts that theory can be safely dismissed as a lie. Very simple,\nvery neat.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<486FF4AC.5090207@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-05T22:24:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Father Inire guises", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8ded9$f250a4e0$6fcf4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson wroted and quote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And why would Inire spend years trolling alone, again?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff if you are trying to make argments for why Dorcas' husband might not\nbe Father Inire you are breaking down an open door. I agree, he might\nnot\n be. But I think he could be. If you are trying to argue he couldn't\npossibly\nbe, that's a different story and you'll need more definitive proof, I\nthink." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay, you have no explanation to back up your earlier supposition then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That doesn't matter. He cannot be proved wrong. In this school of\ntheorizing, whatever a character (particularly a character who is more than\none character) says that seems to support a given theory is to be accepted\nas true. Whatever that character (or characters) says that is inconvenient\nto or contradicts that theory can be safely dismissed as a lie. Very simple,\nvery neat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's okay. To be unconvincingly correct is not usefully different than \nbeing wrong, and may actually be counterproductive by helping discredit \nthe right answer." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }