Subject: (urth) Terminus Est

From: Stuart Hamm <hammstu at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 06:11:40 +0000

Can anyone please direct me to a link to what you feel is the best picture
of what Terminus Est looks like?
 
Thanks
 
Stuart
 
OK I'm going to be in Buenos Aires and Nessus seems like a good place for a
new tattoo...

 skype: stuart.hamm 

    stuarthamm.net

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From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 06:16:38 +0000

That's the cover of Shadow and Claw, with a pretty good picture.  TE  
is actually a copy of a common medieval executioner's sword, like this  
one:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_NbJ7tGRdKh0/SA5jUTfngHI/AAAAAAAAAhg/02p19YKx228/DSC01101.JPG

Except of course it has the mercury channel, which I ran by some  
swordsmith friends of mine who told me that it wouldn't be possible to  
actually make a mercury channel and fill it with mercury and have the  
sword retain enough strength.  The spine of the sword is actually what  
gives it its strength.

Lane

On Jul 2, 2008, at 1:11 AM, Stuart Hamm wrote:

> Can anyone please direct me to a link to what you feel is the best  
> picture of what Terminus Est looks like?
>
> Thanks
>
> Stuart
>
> OK I'm going to be in Buenos Aires and Nessus seems like a good  
> place for a new tattoo...
>
>
>
>  skype: stuart.hamm
>
>     stuarthamm.net
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 08:59:23 +0000

Lane Haygood wrote:
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0312890176/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link
> 
> That's the cover of Shadow and Claw, with a pretty good picture.  TE is 
> actually a copy of a common medieval executioner's sword, like this one:
> 

I understand that pistol-size rayguns and interstellar-range spacecraft 
are also not actually possible. Who does that Wolfe guy think he is fooling?

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 09:28:28 +0000

It could be done with a brass tube.

It would be a tricky bit of work.

.

---

From: John Smith <jsmith2627 at att.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 12:26:10 +0000

The mercury channel would weaken the spine of the
sword no matter how it was made.  Another problem:  If
the empty part of the channel is filled with air, the
pressure of the air would impede the mercury from
flowing freely when the sword descends.   The empty
area needs to be a vacuum.  This would be hard to
craft and would further weaken the sword.

Jack

> >> place for a new tattoo...

Best wishes,

Jack

---

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:48:22 +0000

On 2008.07.02 01:16:38 -0500, Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com> scribbled 4.5K characters:
>    That's the cover of Shadow and Claw, with a pretty good picture.  TE is actually a copy of a
>    common medieval executioner's sword, like this one:
>    Except of course it has the mercury channel, which I ran by some swordsmith friends of mine
>    who told me that it wouldn't be possible to actually make a mercury channel and fill it with
>    mercury and have the sword retain enough strength.  The spine of the sword is actually what
>    gives it its strength.
>    Lane

I've never entirely understood why the mercury channel would be difficult. Here's how I always envisioned it in my reading; we all know that I-beams are so strong for their weight in part because of the excavated material, and from what I can tell, there are any number of swords which use the I-beam shape (fullers, I think they're called).

So, what's stopping a sword smith from making an I-shaped sword, and then welding a flat layer lengthwise over one side's gap and filling the 'tube' up with some mercury just before the final weld?

(Or doing some even more clever method not apparent to a non-swordsmith like myself...)

--
gwern
Blacknet NIOG Cocaine 03 SAS MEU/SOCPSAC AOL zip quiche NVD
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From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:49:41 +0000

On Jul 2, 2008, at 7:26 AM, John Smith wrote:

> This would be hard to

Yeah, but if you can make pistol-sized ray guns, time-and-dimension- 
hopping-mirrors, and The Ship.....

Doesn't Wolfe *say* in one of the Appendices that Terminus Est is  
interstellar-level technology, not merely the product of a skilled  
terrestrial blacksmith?

Adam

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:05:25 +0000

John Smith wrote:
> Another problem:  If
> area needs to be a vacuum.

This is exactly how Toricelli made a vacuum in 1643, the tube being 
equal in length to TE.

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:12:30 +0000

I still think it is doable.

You are right about the vacuum: you'd have to let the brass tube into the
hilt and have a little nipple for pumping it out occasionally. It's
getting a little complicated.

I have heard of a similar type of sword that had a sliding weight.

.

---

From: Gary <stuff at oreb.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 14:57:00 +0000

Lane Haygood wrote:
> <http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0312890176/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link>

One of Clarke's laws of prediction should apply to swordsmiths as well 
as scientists, eh?
"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is 
possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is 
impossible, he is very probably wrong."

Unquestionably it may be weaker than a solid-core sword, but this 
doesn't mean it can't be engineered to be sufficiently strong - as 
others have pointed out we do for bridge girders.  This is especially 
true if it's built around a mercury-and-vaccuum-filled tube of 
unobtanium - I'm sure it's true that it can't be done to give the 
wonderful combination of properties seen in Terminus Est using current 
techniques & materials.  And I'm very willing to assume they can make a 
"perfect" seal around a sufficient vaccuum using some arcane machine.

Gary.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:00:41 +0000

Gary wrote:
> And I'm very willing to assume they can make a 

Like the mysterious alien artifact used to make mercury thermometers?

---

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:17:33 +0000

On 2008.07.02 17:00:41 -0500, Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com> scribbled 0.2K characters:
> Gary wrote:
> And I'm very willing to assume they can make a "perfect" seal around a
> sufficient vaccuum using some arcane machine.

Honestly, I think everyone is overcomplicating Terminus Est.

Everything about its construction is explicable through simple mechanisms.

It has a channel running down the center but is still strong? Simple, it has an I-beam shape and one void is covered up to make a channel.

It requires an exotic method of forging which creates a vaccuum in it to let the mercury slosh around? Well, why do we need a vacuum at all, when we could just have air in it like normal and avoid displacement problems by making our channel a circular tube.

(This suggestion leads to a nice design where we have two channels, one on either side of the I-beam, and they are linked by a hole at the top and bottom; even better, a double-channel design would hide the I-beam shape and make it basically the flat rectangular prism shape we expect of a sword of justice.)

--
gwern
Hutsul Fox Abbas COSMOS Macintosh Ansar supercomputer Stego HAARP LABLINK
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From: Stuart Hamm <hammstu at sbcglobal.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:16:45 +0000

Thanks for all the discussion...and to think all I was looking for was a decent picture..

Just to clarify...do I have the tattoo artist put in the mercury filled channel or not??????????????

That might hurt

hehehe
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From: John Smith <jsmith2627 at att.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:22:28 +0000

Gwern has a clever suggestion about the mercury
channel in Terminus Est:

 "Well, why do we need a vacuum at all,
 when we could just have air in it like normal and
avoid displacement
 problems by making our channel a circular tube."

This is a good idea, but I don't think it would work. 
 When you raise the sword, the mercury would pool at
the bottom in both channels.  Then on the downstroke,
the mercury would flow down both channels, resulting
in the same air compression problem.   We might want
the mercury to flow down one channel and the air to
flow up the other, but mercury will simply follow the
laws of physics.

The text also indicates a single channel:   
"There is a channel in the spine of her blade, and in
it runs a river of hydragyrum"  (Shadow, XIV).

Best wishes,

Jack

Best wishes,

Jack

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 23:39:48 +0000

Put a one way valve on one side.....

.

---

From: Dave Lebling <dlebling at hyraxes.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 00:19:48 +0000

I'm trying to remember if there is any evidence that Terminus Est is 
actually particularly strong. Severian mostly uses it to cut heads off, 
not duel Excalibur and King Arthur, after all. In the one big SF fight 
he gets in with it (i.e, with Baldanders), the sword is destroyed. But 
perhaps my memory fails me.

In any case, one of the continuing tropes of BotNS is that something 
that appears medieval and mundane ("ships," "statues") are actually 
examples of advanced technology ("starships," "robots").

-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha

---

From: Tim Walters <walters at doubtfulpalace.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 00:37:08 +0000

> in the same air compression problem.

I'm no physicist, but wouldn't this happen only if the mercury were in
perfect equilibrium on both sides? Otherwise the downward pressure on the
side with more mercury would push the air around, and the rest of the
mercury up, I think.

-- 
Tim Walters | http://doubtfulpalace.com

---

From: Kerry Benton <k.benton at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 00:38:42 +0000

not sure that'd do it.

if you put a valve at tip and tang, facing the same direction, they're
disconnected, effectively... neither air nor mercury can flow.  if you
only use one valve, then at some point the mercury level equalizes,
and you're back to square one.

I still think a vacuum is the way to go, honestly.  I'm not certain it
could be done with technology present now.  Not to even deal with the
issue of maintaining a decent vacuum -- which is hard... damn near
everything is porous to some degree, and a perfect seal is not
happening. -- I think you might compromise the function of the blade,
having to make it extra thick at the center.  I don't know... how
thick can a blade be at the center and still cut through a neck?
Probably pretty thick, given how wide the blade is as well... this
isn't a katana, after all.

Anyhow, i see nothing fundamentally impossible about it...

-k

---

From: Gary <stuff at oreb.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 04:18:02 +0000

> Like the mysterious alien artifact used to make mercury thermometers?

I like the Area 51 thermometer on my deck... I assume the supposed 
"bluebird" decoration is actually the depiction of an alien overlord.

> It has a channel running down the center but is still strong? Simple, it has an I-beam shape and one void is covered up to make a channel.
I really think the channel needs to be along the centre-of-balance - the 
centre, assuming a symmetrical sword.  Otherwise the channel would make 
it much harder to wield, not easier.  So instead of an I-beam, use a 
tube... or a square rod if you prefer, with the sides being your 
"I-beam" equivalent, and the channel within.

As others have said, although the circular channel (to skip the vaccuum) 
seems appealing, it can't work as well as a vaccuum.  Unless the mercury 
is all on one side (one channel if you will), some of the mercury will 
be working against the rest... it'll never be perfectly balanced, so the 
mercury will certainly be displaced, but not nearly as efficiently as 
with a single channel and a vaccuum.  But it may work well enough to do 
the job.

As Transentient says, Severian may be deceiving us, but I think the way 
he describe's the sword action requires there to be more to the blade 
than just his training.  He clearly feels this blade is unusual, and 
though the mechanism may not really be a "hydragyrum" channel, but 
something is giving an effect akin to this.

Clearly it's not _needed_ in a head-lopper, but it's a cool little 
feature, serving no other purpose than to make the sword more 
interesting to the reader I think.  As one who's never lifted a heavy 
sword, but lifted many other long, heavy things, I can see how it's 
easier to raise without wobbling when the weight is near one's body, and 
how it has greater angular momentum on the downstroke with weight 
redistributed to the tip.  It would take practice to get used to, and 
gain advantage from, the weight shift.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:58:51 +0000

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:18 PM, Gary <stuff at oreb.net> wrote:
> centre, assuming a symmetrical sword.

There is some cause to believe that the sword is not symmetrical:
it has recognizeable "male" and "female" sides.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant
-----
http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer
http://www.danehyoakes.com

I once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a
restaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand
Island Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett

---

From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:13:21 +0000

> it has recognizeable "male" and "female" sides.

I always assumed these were actual heads (well, actual worked-metal  
heads) on the quillion....but I don't know if there is textual  
justification for this.

Adam

---

From: John Smith <jsmith2627 at att.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 17:22:32 +0000

Doesn't  the "man-edge" and "women-edge" distinction
just tell the executioner which side of the blade to
use?  And don't you tell the edges apart by the heads
(which I took to be male and female) on the sword's
guard?

"Man-edge and woman-edge could part a hair to within a
span of the guard, which was of thick silver with a
carven head at either end."  (Shadow, XIV)

The blade can still be symmetrical, even if each edge
has a separate use.

Jack

Best wishes,

Jack

---

From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2008 03:08:40 +0000

I think the asymmetry is limited to the gaurd.

.

---

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 04:19:46 +0000

> "I-beam" equivalent, and the channel within.
...

Well, it would be balanced - the 'groove' runs up the middle of the blade, which gets you symmetry along one direction, and an I-beam shape has a groove going up both sides, which gets you symmetry along the other dimension, if you follow me.

--
gwern
Undercover burhop World 757 William BECCA Psyops veggie 3M Treasury
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