{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5083", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5083, "subject": "Forging Terminus Est", "messages": 7, "voices": 7, "first": "2008-07-02T19:24:53+00:00", "last": "2008-07-12T04:28:42+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<747944.7978.qm@web83718.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-07-02T19:24:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Forging Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian’s sword Terminus Est is a long, heavy executioner’s sword with a channel in the spine through which a river of mercury flows. The mercury changes the balance of the sword as it descends and makes the blade feel alive.\n\n I had always thought the mercury channel was an interesting but improbable feature. The channel would weaken the sword and the empty area of the channel would have to be a vacuum, because air in the channel would impede the flow of the mercury. If the steel around the vacuum channel were not thick enough, atmospheric pressure would crush the blade.\n\n Some people have argued that the advanced technology that produced ray guns and time travel would have no problem producing such a sword without the blade being weak. But I think appealing to advanced technology takes the fun out of speculating. \n\n Wolfe has an engineering background and most technological marvels in his books have some basis in fact. I began wondering if you could produce Terminus Est without resorting to the deus ex mechina of advanced technology.\n\n The world of Urth has a lot of left-over marvels from the science of the past, but most of the inhabitants live a life with the technology of the middle ages. Sword-making is an ancient art and medieval craftsmen created fine blades. Terminus Est could be made as follows:\n\n1. Forge the sword as a swordsmith normally would, heating and hammering and folding the steel.\n2. After the sword is finished, drill a hole from the tang in the rear to close to the tip of the blade.\n3. Holding the blade tip-down, fill half the channel with mercury.\n4. Use a vacuum pump to expel the air, and then weld a plug at the base of the tang. (Okay, vacuum pumps aren’t medieval, but they were in use by the latter half of the 1600?s.) Or you might create a vacuum by filling the whole channel with mercury with a curved glass tube at the end. Flip the sword over and the mercury would run down the channel and up the tube until atmospheric pressure balanced the weight of the mercury.\n\n If Terminus Est is 1 inch in thickness at the spine and if the channel is — inch in diameter, the walls would be 3/8 inch thick. This is enough to prevent the atmosphere from crushing the blade.\n\n The blade of Terminus Est is an ell long (40 inches) and the grip is two spans (16 inches) (Shadow, XIV). So the sword is about 56 inches in total. Leaving an inch at the tip and the tang, you could make a channel 54 inches long. If half the — inch diameter channel if filled with mercury, the weight of the mercury would be about 10 ounces. This would be enough to affect the balance and make the sword feel alive as you raised the blade and struck.\n By increasing the diameter of the channel, you could increase the weight of mercury. But a larger channel further weakens the sword. I think a — inch diameter channel leaves the sword with sufficient strength and provides enough mercury to make the sword behave as Severian describes.\n\n The channel would still weaken the blade but not enough for it to break under normal use. Terminus Est shatters only when Baldanders hits it with his mace (Sword, XXXVII).\n\n So I’ve changed my mind about the improbability of Wolfe’s putting a mercury channel in Terminus Est. I think a craftsman could have forged the sword without resorting to unknown technologies.\n\n\nJack\n\n\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11500.67.142.130.42.1215027749.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-02T19:42:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Forging Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "<747944.7978.qm@web83718.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have a brass or soft iron tube (actually I think I'd want to\nexperiment with the tube) and you overlap it with two battens that you've\nmade out of wootz, which are sort of triangular in cross section. You are\noverlapping the thick ends over the tube, and you forge it together.\n\nTempering it is going to be interesting. When you temper a blade, you are\nalways trying to get a variance in the steel, harder towards the edges and\nsofter towards the mid parts. There are a number of tricky bits to this\nproject.\n\nIt might take a while to work out a couple of details but I have no doubt\nthat a sword like this could be made. The vacuum bit is trickier, at least\nwithout having a little pump and a nipple in the tang.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian’s sword Terminus Est is a long, heavy executioner’s sword with a\nchannel in the spine through which a river of mercury flows. The mercury\nchanges the balance of the sword as it descends and makes the blade feel\nalive.\n\n I had always thought the mercury channel was an interesting but\nimprobable feature. The channel would weaken the sword and the empty\narea of the channel would have to be a vacuum, because air in the\nchannel would impede the flow of the mercury. If the steel around\nthe vacuum channel were not thick enough, atmospheric pressure would\ncrush the blade.\n\n Some people have argued that the advanced technology that produced ray\nguns and time travel would have no problem producing such a sword\nwithout the blade being weak. But I think appealing to advanced\ntechnology takes the fun out of speculating.\n\n Wolfe has an engineering background and most technological marvels in\nhis books have some basis in fact. I began wondering if you could\nproduce Terminus Est without resorting to the deus ex mechina of\nadvanced technology.\n\n The world of Urth has a lot of left-over marvels from the science of\nthe past, but most of the inhabitants live a life with the technology\nof the middle ages. Sword-making is an ancient art and medieval\ncraftsmen created fine blades. Terminus Est could be made as\nfollows:\n\n1. Forge the sword as a swordsmith normally would, heating and\nhammering and folding the steel.\n2. After the sword is finished, drill a hole from the tang in the rear\nto close to the tip of the blade.\n3. Holding the blade tip-down, fill half the channel with mercury.\n4. Use a vacuum pump to expel the air, and then weld a plug at the base\nof the tang. (Okay, vacuum pumps aren’t medieval, but they were in use by\nthe latter half of the 1600?s.) Or you might create a vacuum by filling\nthe whole channel with mercury with a curved glass tube at the end. Flip\nthe sword over and the mercury would run down the channel and up the tube\nuntil atmospheric pressure balanced the weight of the mercury.\n\n If Terminus Est is 1 inch in thickness at the spine and if the\nchannel is — inch in diameter, the walls would be 3/8 inch thick.\nThis is enough to prevent the atmosphere from crushing the blade.\n\n The blade of Terminus Est is an ell long (40 inches) and the grip is\ntwo spans (16 inches) (Shadow, XIV). So the sword is about 56\ninches in total. Leaving an inch at the tip and the tang, you could\nmake a channel 54 inches long. If half the — inch diameter channel\nif filled with mercury, the weight of the mercury would be about 10\nounces. This would be enough to affect the balance and make the sword\nfeel alive as you raised the blade and struck.\n By increasing the diameter of the channel, you could increase the\nweight of mercury. But a larger channel further weakens the sword.\nI think a — inch diameter channel leaves the sword with sufficient\nstrength and provides enough mercury to make the sword behave as\nSeverian describes.\n\n The channel would still weaken the blade but not enough for it to\nbreak under normal use. Terminus Est shatters only when Baldanders\nhits it with his mace (Sword, XXXVII).\n\n So I’ve changed my mind about the improbability of Wolfe’s putting a\nmercury channel in Terminus Est. I think a craftsman could have\nforged the sword without resorting to unknown technologies.\n\n\nJack\n\n\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<43960c850807021246n649af5b8kb5bb6648a6c3b804@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Russell Wodell", "address": "wrustle at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-02T19:46:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Forging Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "<747944.7978.qm@web83718.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "However you explain it, it starts to sound awfully phallic, doesn't it?\n\n2008/7/2 John Smith :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian's sword Terminus Est is a long, heavy executioner's sword with a\nchannel in the spine through which a river of mercury flows. The mercury\nchanges the balance of the sword as it descends and makes the blade feel\nalive.\n\n I had always thought the mercury channel was an interesting but\nimprobable feature. The channel would weaken the sword and the empty area\nof the channel would have to be a vacuum, because air in the channel would\nimpede the flow of the mercury. If the steel around the vacuum channel\nwere not thick enough, atmospheric pressure would crush the blade.\n\n Some people have argued that the advanced technology that produced ray\nguns and time travel would have no problem producing such a sword without\nthe blade being weak. But I think appealing to advanced technology takes\nthe fun out of speculating.\n\n Wolfe has an engineering background and most technological marvels in\nhis books have some basis in fact. I began wondering if you could produce\nTerminus Est without resorting to the deus ex mechina of advanced\ntechnology.\n\n The world of Urth has a lot of left-over marvels from the science of\nthe past, but most of the inhabitants live a life with the technology of the\nmiddle ages. Sword-making is an ancient art and medieval craftsmen created\nfine blades. Terminus Est could be made as follows:\n\n1. Forge the sword as a swordsmith normally would, heating and hammering\nand folding the steel.\n2. After the sword is finished, drill a hole from the tang in the rear\nto close to the tip of the blade.\n3. Holding the blade tip-down, fill half the channel with mercury.\n4. Use a vacuum pump to expel the air, and then weld a plug at the base\nof the tang. (Okay, vacuum pumps aren't medieval, but they were in use by\nthe latter half of the 1600's.) Or you might create a vacuum by filling\nthe whole channel with mercury with a curved glass tube at the end. Flip\nthe sword over and the mercury would run down the channel and up the tube\nuntil atmospheric pressure balanced the weight of the mercury.\n\n If Terminus Est is 1 inch in thickness at the spine and if the\nchannel is — inch in diameter, the walls would be 3/8 inch thick. This is\nenough to prevent the atmosphere from crushing the blade.\n\n The blade of Terminus Est is an ell long (40 inches) and the grip is\ntwo spans (16 inches) (Shadow, XIV). So the sword is about 56 inches in\ntotal. Leaving an inch at the tip and the tang, you could make a channel 54\ninches long. If half the — inch diameter channel if filled with mercury,\nthe weight of the mercury would be about 10 ounces. This would be enough to\naffect the balance and make the sword feel alive as you raised the blade and\nstruck.\n By increasing the diameter of the channel, you could increase the\nweight of mercury. But a larger channel further weakens the sword. I\nthink a — inch diameter channel leaves the sword with sufficient strength\nand provides enough mercury to make the sword behave as Severian describes.\n\n The channel would still weaken the blade but not enough for it to\nbreak under normal use. Terminus Est shatters only when Baldanders hits it\nwith his mace (Sword, XXXVII).\n\n So I've changed my mind about the improbability of Wolfe's putting a\nmercury channel in Terminus Est. I think a craftsman could have forged\nthe sword without resorting to unknown technologies.\n\n\nJack\n\n\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<54DAA314-D391-445B-AA55-5840882D2DFC@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Transentient", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-03T03:36:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Forging Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "<747944.7978.qm@web83718.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " So I’ve changed my mind about the improbability of Wolfe’s \nputting a mercury channel in Terminus Est. I think a craftsman \ncould have forged the sword without resorting to unknown technologies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never really considered that there was an actual channel of mercury \nrunning down the core of the blade. I always assumed this was just how \nSeverian described some bit of lost tech.\n\nYou don't need to do use anything like a channel of liquid metal in a \nsword to make it a good tool for cutting heads. All you need is a good \nedge. The rest is up to the skill of the practitioner; I am sure the \nexecutioner's guild trained Severian very well in how to cut so that \nthe blade's balance is forward or backward.\n\n(Surely I'm not the only one on this list who has practiced a Japanese \nsword art like Iaido or batto?) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<486c4f1f.0405560a.1f07.6b45@mx.google.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-03T04:01:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Forging Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "<54DAA314-D391-445B-AA55-5840882D2DFC@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I practice several blade arts like Filipino kali and Kukishinden Ryu Kenjutsu. Cutting with a sword is no easy feat, but I just don't see the benefit of a sliding bit of weight in a two-hander like TE.\n\nLane Haygood\nSent from my AT&T Tilt \n\n-----Original Message-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Transentient \nSent: Wednesday, July 02, 2008 10:36 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Forging Terminus Est\n So I’ve changed my mind about the improbability of Wolfe’s \nputting a mercury channel in Terminus Est. I think a craftsman \ncould have forged the sword without resorting to unknown technologies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never really considered that there was an actual channel of mercury \nrunning down the core of the blade. I always assumed this was just how \nSeverian described some bit of lost tech.\n\nYou don't need to do use anything like a channel of liquid metal in a \nsword to make it a good tool for cutting heads. All you need is a good \nedge. The rest is up to the skill of the practitioner; I am sure the \nexecutioner's guild trained Severian very well in how to cut so that \nthe blade's balance is forward or backward.\n\n(Surely I'm not the only one on this list who has practiced a Japanese \nsword art like Iaido or batto?) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<486c8c4c.212.4967.10660@mail.rochester.edu>", "from": { "name": "dcooperv", "address": "dcooperv at mail.rochester.edu" }, "date": "2008-07-03T08:22:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Forging Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "<486c4f1f.0405560a.1f07.6b45@mx.google.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Re: John Smith,\nDon't take this personally, but one inch at the spine is much too thick. To be a\ngood cutter (particularly of flesh) a blade needs to be fairly thin. Given a\nblade with a realistic/practical thickness, one wouldn't be unable to pour in\nenough mercury to make any useful difference.\nSecond, there were once some Mid-Eastern (or Indian, I can't remember which)\nmade with rolling beads set in a channel, called \"the tears of the afflicted.\"\nThese were more for decoration than anything practical though.\nFinally, IIRC Sword Forum International once had a discussion of exactly this\nissue (Wolfe and Terminus Est were even mentioned by name); I'll send you all a\nlink later today.\n\n-Dan Vince" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080712042842.GD27407@craft>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-12T04:28:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Forging Terminus Est", "in_reply_to": "<486c8c4c.212.4967.10660@mail.rochester.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2008.07.03 04:22:36 -0400, dcooperv scribbled 0.7K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Re: John Smith,\nDon't take this personally, but one inch at the spine is much too thick. To be a\ngood cutter (particularly of flesh) a blade needs to be fairly thin. Given a\nblade with a realistic/practical thickness, one wouldn't be unable to pour in\nenough mercury to make any useful difference.\nSecond, there were once some Mid-Eastern (or Indian, I can't remember which)\nmade with rolling beads set in a channel, called \"the tears of the afflicted.\"\nThese were more for decoration than anything practical though.\nFinally, IIRC Sword Forum International once had a discussion of exactly this\nissue (Wolfe and Terminus Est were even mentioned by name); I'll send you all a\nlink later today.\n\n-Dan Vince" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://netsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000356.html ?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nUndercover burhop World 757 William BECCA Psyops veggie 3M Treasury" } ] } ] }