{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5084",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 5084,
    "subject": "Sev's common lineage (another Catherine candidate)",
    "messages": 4,
    "voices": 3,
    "first": "2008-07-03T09:29:16+00:00",
    "last": "2008-07-04T06:46:19+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<486C9BEC.3080609@gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Dave Tallman",
        "address": "davetallman at msn.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-07-03T09:29:16+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage (another Catherine candidate)",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "In RttW 19, there was a client of the torturers called Tigridia. She was \non the third level, where people were \"yelling and screaming all the \ntime.\" Her only physical description is that she has \"big eyes.\" Juganu \nwas attracted to her, and wanted to stay and free her. Silk tried to \npull him back, resulting in a fight. \"The woman got in it, and we had a \nreal fight going until the boy ran off and got the key to her room.\"\n\nThe name Tigridia has two possible legends. One is as a sister of Saint \nPatrick. She is sometime credited as the mother of seventeen other \nsaints. The other is as the daughter of a nobleman named Sancho, who \nbecame a nun. Both of these could be tied to the history of Catherine. \nCould Tigridia be her alias in prison? The association of Tigridia = \ntiger = cat = Catherine could be made.\n\nThere are mysteries about how the fight ended. Did Severian just join \nthe fight and help stop it? Or did the sight of him cause the woman to \nbreak down? This is probably a changed timeline, so it doesn't matter if \nSev sees her face.\n\nI think she is a viable candidate for Catherine as a long-term prisoner. \nWhat do others think?"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<000a01c8dd4d$48271400$fbcc4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Roy C. Lackey",
        "address": "rclackey at stic.net"
      },
      "date": "2008-07-03T20:42:11+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage (another Catherine candidate)",
      "in_reply_to": "<486C9BEC.3080609@gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nIn RttW 19, there was a client of the torturers called Tigridia. She was\non the third level, where people were \"yelling and screaming all the\ntime.\" Her only physical description is that she has \"big eyes.\" Juganu\nwas attracted to her, and wanted to stay and free her. Silk tried to\npull him back, resulting in a fight. \"The woman got in it, and we had a\nreal fight going until the boy ran off and got the key to her room.\"\n\nThe name Tigridia has two possible legends. One is as a sister of Saint\nPatrick. She is sometime credited as the mother of seventeen other\nsaints. The other is as the daughter of a nobleman named Sancho, who\nbecame a nun. Both of these could be tied to the history of Catherine.\nCould Tigridia be her alias in prison? The association of Tigridia =\ntiger = cat = Catherine could be made.\n\nThere are mysteries about how the fight ended. Did Severian just join\nthe fight and help stop it? Or did the sight of him cause the woman to\nbreak down? This is probably a changed timeline, so it doesn't matter if\nSev sees her face.\n\nI think she is a viable candidate for Catherine as a long-term prisoner.\nWhat do others think?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Khaibit clones closely resembled their originals; that was the whole point\nof the way the Old Autarch set up his brothel. Any pretty girls would have\nsufficed for his stable, but he wanted to further degrade the exultant\nconcubines he held hostage by prostituting their facsimiles, complete with\nexultant names, to low-life patrons of the Algedonic Quarter. My point is,\nwhether the Katharine maid was khaibit or original, Sev saw her many times\nand knew her face well. So, unless you are willing to throw out the entire\nUrth Cycle because Silk's astral visit stopped the coming of a new sun by\nchanging the future, starting from the day of Silk's visit, then it does\nmatter if he saw Tigridia's face. She should have looked like the Katharine\nmaid.\n\nSev's elevation ceremony was about a year and a half after the time of\nSilk's visit. When he wrote of that ceremony ten years later, he speculated\non where the maid might have come from. Unless he deliberately lied by\nomission and misdirection, he didn't see that maid in that crazy woman's\ncell.\n\nBtw, if the woman Sev saw in the loggia on the last day of Urth had anything\nto do with his birth, and if the last day of Urth never happened because\nthere was no New Sun, then she would never have been taken back in time that\nday, whether to give birth to him or simply to go nuts in a cell or to\nprovide a convenient corpse in the necropolis. In other words, if Silk's\nvisit stopped the coming of the New Sun, I don't think Sev would even have\nexisted for Silk to meet, particularly if Catherine was born in his future.\n\n-Roy"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<20080704040852.659FA158041@mailserver6.hushmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com",
        "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-07-04T04:08:51+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage (another Catherine candidate)",
      "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8dd4d$48271400$fbcc4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On Thu, 03 Jul 2008 13:42:11 -0700 \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n<rclackey at stic.net> wrote:\n\nBtw, if the woman Sev saw in the loggia on the last day of Urth \nhad anything\nto do with his birth, and if the last day of Urth never happened \nbecause\nthere was no New Sun, then she would never have been taken back in "
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "time that\nday, whether to give birth to him or simply to go nuts in a cell \nor to\nprovide a convenient corpse in the necropolis. In other words, if \nSilk's\nvisit stopped the coming of the New Sun, I don't think Sev would \neven have\nexisted for Silk to meet, particularly if Catherine was born in \nhis future."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "For me, of course, this is an argument against the woman being \nCatherine. I'm sticking to my Catherine = Ouen's sister story, at \nleast until I make up one I like better :)\n\nAs to who this woman is: no idea! But shortly after we hear Valeria \nbeing told that the cacogens have landed a man and a woman in the \ngrounds of the House Absolute. Maybe ..."
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<486DC73B.2020604@gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Dave Tallman",
        "address": "davetallman at msn.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-07-04T06:46:19+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Sev's common lineage (another Catherine candidate)",
      "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8dd4d$48271400$fbcc4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nBtw, if the woman Sev saw in the loggia on the last day of Urth had anything\nto do with his birth, and if the last day of Urth never happened because\nthere was no New Sun, then she would never have been taken back in time that\nday, whether to give birth to him or simply to go nuts in a cell or to\nprovide a convenient corpse in the necropolis. In other words, if Silk's\nvisit stopped the coming of the New Sun, I don't think Sev would even have\nexisted for Silk to meet, particularly if Catherine was born in his future.\n  "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I didn't claim the changes Silk made were drastic enough to prevent Sev \nfrom being the one to bring the New Sun. That could still happen in this \ntimeline. What could happen is that Sev would eventually write a \nslightly different BotNS from the one we have, in which he mentioned the \nresemblance of Tigridia to the maid. Or he could lie by omission as he \noften does and write exactly the book we have.\n\nIf the changes were sufficient to throw off Sev's destiny, the \nexperience of Master Ash suggests that the Tigridia of this timeline \nwould fade out to non-existence. (It would be interesting if that's how \nthe fight ended -- Juganu would no longer have a reason to stay). But \nshe was real enough earlier to have borne Sev, so Sev himself will not \nvanish in this iteration, at least. Silk and crew could have all the \nadventures they wrote about, even if they wiped out the New Sun future. \n(This is assuming that Typhon created the Whorl and sent it off before \nhe met the Conciliator, so there are no side-effects on their own history).\n\nWe know in Wolfe's time theory that loops which eliminate their own \ncauses don't retroactively wrap around and undo themselves. For example, \nonce Sev has seen a complete Talos play with the last-day scenes, and \ngone back as the Conciliator to tell about it, he no longer needs to \nmake any more trips to that time. The play will be completed using \ninformation that came from itself. General Whitten's eliminated trip to \nget information about the bomb in \"Free Live Free\" is another example."
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}