{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5090", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5090, "subject": "b sharps's Inire theory", "messages": 7, "voices": 3, "first": "2008-07-05T23:35:50+00:00", "last": "2008-07-07T03:15:39+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<001401c8def7$df452c40$97d14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-05T23:35:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) b sharps's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just because I have an old-fashioned sense of fairness, I am going to\nsurprise everyone and see if I can present b sharp's case, as I see it, so\nthat it is more palatable. Maybe I can recast his theory, in outline, so\nthat it doesn't seem to trip all over itself.\n\nThe theory that Inire is Rudesind, Fechin and Boatman (maybe some others,\nbut not now) is predicated on similarity of physique, simian in nature. The\nother component is that Inire is a Hierogrammate. Like Tzadkiel (hell, he\nmay *be* Tzadkiel), he is capable of assuming any form, large or small. As\nevidenced by Tiny Tzadkiel at the Brook, he can have multiple versions of\nhimself that maintain separate existences that need not be aware of each\nother at any given time. Thus the Boatman and Rudesind can both be telling\nthe truth to Severian about their life stories, even while living\nsimultaneously. Conflicting details of their lives, if they were all the\nsame person running on and off stage all the time, juggling costumes, so to\nspeak, become moot. Fair enough?\n\nI hope I don't come to regret this. \n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48702158.6000503@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-06T01:35:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) b sharps's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<001401c8def7$df452c40$97d14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJust because I have an old-fashioned sense of fairness, I am going to\nsurprise everyone and see if I can present b sharp's case, as I see it, so\nthat it is more palatable. Maybe I can recast his theory, in outline, so\nthat it doesn't seem to trip all over itself.\n\nThe theory that Inire is Rudesind, Fechin and Boatman (maybe some others,\nbut not now) is predicated on similarity of physique, simian in nature. The\nother component is that Inire is a Hierogrammate. Like Tzadkiel (hell, he\nmay *be* Tzadkiel), he is capable of assuming any form, large or small." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stop. There is no evidence Tzadkiel can assume _any_ shape. It has \nseveral at its disposal, but we do not know if they are finely \ncustomizable. Also, we do not know that Hierogrammates are a race that \nshare the same abilities. They might be a society or a class of beings \nin the way the Megatherians are, with varying abilities and hindrances." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " he can have multiple versions of\nhimself that maintain separate existences that need not be aware of each\nother at any given time. Thus the Boatman and Rudesind can both be telling\nthe truth to Severian about their life stories, even while living\nsimultaneously." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This hypothesis seems safely unfalsifiable. If they have separate lives \nand memories, how is it remotely useful to consider them the same character?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-06T05:40:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) b sharps's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<48702158.6000503@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Kudos and thank you Roy C. Lackey! Using your unquestioned knowledge and skill to tinker\nwith my theory is just the sort of thing I appreciate and find productive in participating on this\nlist. And of course it is understood that it in no way constitutes an endorsement or buying into \nthe accuracy or \"correctness\" of my theory (whatever that means).\n\nI had previously considered your twist of supposing the many versions of Father Inire as \npinched off portions of a larger god-like being but hadn't pursued it. Your take brought some\nnew ideas to mind. \n\nI think Jeff Wilson is wrong in thinking such doppelgangers would have completely separate \nlives and memories. They would share the memories of up until they split, they would share a \ncommon purpose, and being of the same stuff and origin would share a basic inherent nature, \nabilities, etc. I suppose it is obvious that I also disagree with Jeff's thinking that pursuing oddball\nideas will detract from finding the \"right answer\". Like Einstein should have stuck to Newtonian \nphysics? (who would win the Lupine Nobel Prize, hah! like Gene would ever tell :)) \n\nAs it could be relevant to this twist, I'll again toss out the mythological tidbit that Charon was the \noffpring of Erebus, in Greek mythology. But when Roy offhandedly mentioned Tzadkiel as a \nsource for Father Inire versions, my first thought was that Tzadkiel, as Zak, shows a rather simian\nnature during a phase or two of his evolution. Severian notes that Father Inire's work seems to be \na lesser version of the Secret House (Secret Ship?) technology Tzadkiel uses to get around.\n\nI'll also mention recently noticing in the text that Odilo, on the raft and Eata's boat, refers to the days\nof Father Inire as being departed and gone. Dave Tallman's ideas led to some pondering over the \nsuspicious absence of Inire in the flood day, throne room conversation. Valeria and her husband \nseem to have ruled on their own (without \"the words\"). Perhaps Wolfe is hinting that Father Inire \nsecretly joined Severian on the Ship. Perhaps reunited with Tzadlkiel? Is he Ceryx on ancient Urth?\nHow does the Cumaean fit into this scenario?\n\nOr perhaps not fully reunited?...Borski's idea that Ossipago with his short stature, hidden eyes and \nrefusal to doff his mask is a version of Inire could come into play here. And where was Ossipago when \nBarbatus and Famulimus met Severian just before he got on the tender bound for Urth? I've long felt \nWolfe wanted us to think of Ossipago in terms of \"deus ex machina\". An even more appropriate phrase\nin the light of this discussion.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world?\nhttp://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8df47$cd779f20$f1d14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-06T09:08:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) b sharps's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nThe theory that Inire is Rudesind, Fechin and Boatman (maybe some others,\nbut not now) is predicated on similarity of physique, simian in nature." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "other component is that Inire is a Hierogrammate. Like Tzadkiel (hell, he\nmay *be* Tzadkiel), he is capable of assuming any form, large or small." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stop. There is no evidence Tzadkiel can assume _any_ shape. It has\nseveral at its disposal, but we do not know if they are finely\ncustomizable. Also, we do not know that Hierogrammates are a race that\nshare the same abilities. They might be a society or a class of beings\nin the way the Megatherians are, with varying abilities and hindrances." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know how many forms a Hierogrammate can assume, but the apport on\nthe Ship started out as a fur-ball and eventually morphed into the small,\nhairy man-shape that was Zak. (See long paragraph, URTH, IX, 68, near end)\nZak became Tzadkiel of the Trial. Sev later met giantess Captain Tzadkiel\nwho turned one of her fingers into a woman-sized version of herself. The\ncaptain seemed to be ignorant of Trial Tzadkiel's doings. She spoke of her\n*race's* ability to change shape and said that broken-off pieces of her\nlarger self would inform her greater self of anything they learned. (XXIV,\n176, last page) Small Tzadkiel also was ignorant of her larger self's doings\nwith Sev." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " he can have multiple versions of\nhimself that maintain separate existences that need not be aware of each\nother at any given time. Thus the Boatman and Rudesind can both be\ntelling\nthe truth to Severian about their life stories, even while living\nsimultaneously." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This hypothesis seems safely unfalsifiable. If they have separate lives\nand memories, how is it remotely useful to consider them the same\ncharacter?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Useful? In the same way that Tzadkiel found the practice useful, I suppose.\nTrial Tzadkiel became Zak just for kicks, so he could get to know Sev. Inire\ncould marry for the love of young women, just as men do. But he could do it\nmore than once, and at the same time, if he was a Hierogrammate. And he\ncould manipulate events to cause Sev to become the New Sun. Note that I said\nthat split-off versions *need not* be aware of another version's doings, but\nthey could if they wanted to, particularly Rudesind and Inire. They may all\nget together, by and by.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48712340.7020901@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-06T19:55:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) b sharps's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8df47$cd779f20$f1d14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The theory that Inire is Rudesind, Fechin and Boatman (maybe some others,\nbut not now) is predicated on similarity of physique, simian in nature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The\nother component is that Inire is a Hierogrammate. Like Tzadkiel (hell, he\nmay *be* Tzadkiel), he is capable of assuming any form, large or small." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Stop. There is no evidence Tzadkiel can assume _any_ shape. It has\nseveral at its disposal, but we do not know if they are finely\ncustomizable. Also, we do not know that Hierogrammates are a race that\nshare the same abilities. They might be a society or a class of beings\nin the way the Megatherians are, with varying abilities and hindrances." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know how many forms a Hierogrammate can assume, but the apport on\nthe Ship started out as a fur-ball and eventually morphed into the small,\nhairy man-shape that was Zak. (See long paragraph, URTH, IX, 68, near end)\nZak became Tzadkiel of the Trial. Sev later met giantess Captain Tzadkiel\nwho turned one of her fingers into a woman-sized version of herself. The\ncaptain seemed to be ignorant of Trial Tzadkiel's doings. She spoke of her\n*race's* ability to change shape and said that broken-off pieces of her\nlarger self would inform her greater self of anything they learned. (XXIV,\n176, last page) Small Tzadkiel also was ignorant of her larger self's doings\nwith Sev." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, so T's race can take different shapes, and split off independent \nparts, stipulated. But can T's race take on a multitude of different \nfaces? And where is it writ that Inire is a member of T's race?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " he can have multiple versions of\nhimself that maintain separate existences that need not be aware of each\nother at any given time. Thus the Boatman and Rudesind can both be\ntelling\nthe truth to Severian about their life stories, even while living\nsimultaneously." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This hypothesis seems safely unfalsifiable. If they have separate lives\nand memories, how is it remotely useful to consider them the same\ncharacter?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Useful? In the same way that Tzadkiel found the practice useful, I suppose.\nTrial Tzadkiel became Zak just for kicks, so he could get to know Sev. Inire\ncould marry for the love of young women, just as men do. But he could do it\nmore than once, and at the same time, if he was a Hierogrammate. And he\ncould manipulate events to cause Sev to become the New Sun. Note that I said\nthat split-off versions *need not* be aware of another version's doings, but\nthey could if they wanted to, particularly Rudesind and Inire. They may all\nget together, by and by." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Suppose I am Inire, and too busy doing transcendent things to date. How \ndoes it help me quench my desire for a young lady's company to bud off a \nboatman who departs, perhaps to reunite in 50 or so yeasr, perhaps not, \nespecially when I am already in close cahoots with the owner of a \nyouth-oriented clone bordello? Surely he could keep a really young one \non hand, perhaps in return for a new section of the Botanical Gardens \nfor he and his bees to enjoy?\n\n\nHmmm - maybe that's where the Catherines come from?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8dfc5$c49af4a0$c9d04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-07T00:09:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) b sharps's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<48712340.7020901@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOkay, so T's race can take different shapes, and split off independent\nparts, stipulated. But can T's race take on a multitude of different\nfaces?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "T went from hairy-faced Zak to both male and female faces that aren't\ndescribed but don't look like Zak's. This from the start of the Trial:\n\n\"I knew then that I had seen Tzadkiel before I helped\nSidero and the rest catch him as Zak, and that the male\nform I saw was no more true (though no less) than the\nwinged woman whose glance had stunned me then, and\nthat neither was more true, or less, than the animal shape\nthat had saved me when Purn had tried to kill me outside his\ncage.\" (XXI, 151)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And where is it writ that Inire is a member of T's race?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nowhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Suppose I am Inire, and too busy doing transcendent things to date. How\ndoes it help me quench my desire for a young lady's company to bud off a\nboatman who departs, perhaps to reunite in 50 or so yeasr, perhaps not,\nespecially when I am already in close cahoots with the owner of a\nyouth-oriented clone bordello? Surely he could keep a really young one\non hand, perhaps in return for a new section of the Botanical Gardens\nfor he and his bees to enjoy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To be clear: I still see no real reason the Boatman should be part of the\nInire cadre, and I think the theory would be the better for taking that\nfamous Razor to him -- it would eliminate needless complications. But\nRudesind had had a wife and kids, and girls seemed to have liked Fechin, or\nhe them. Anyway, I suppose it best to think of Inire as just another\nsplit-off version of a Hierogrammate.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48718A5B.1040405@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-07T03:15:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) b sharps's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8dfc5$c49af4a0$c9d04a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay, so T's race can take different shapes, and split off independent\nparts, stipulated. But can T's race take on a multitude of different\nfaces?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "T went from hairy-faced Zak to both male and female faces that aren't\ndescribed but don't look like Zak's. This from the start of the Trial:\n\n\"I knew then that I had seen Tzadkiel before I helped\nSidero and the rest catch him as Zak, and that the male\nform I saw was no more true (though no less) than the\nwinged woman whose glance had stunned me then, and\nthat neither was more true, or less, than the animal shape\nthat had saved me when Purn had tried to kill me outside his\ncage.\" (XXI, 151)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But don't the various female forms have immediately recognizable faces? \nHow similar is the non-bestial male face to the female face?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And where is it writ that Inire is a member of T's race?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nowhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Suppose I am Inire, and too busy doing transcendent things to date. How\ndoes it help me quench my desire for a young lady's company to bud off a\nboatman who departs, perhaps to reunite in 50 or so yeasr, perhaps not,\nespecially when I am already in close cahoots with the owner of a\nyouth-oriented clone bordello? Surely he could keep a really young one\non hand, perhaps in return for a new section of the Botanical Gardens\nfor he and his bees to enjoy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To be clear: I still see no real reason the Boatman should be part of the\nInire cadre, and I think the theory would be the better for taking that\nfamous Razor to him -- it would eliminate needless complications. But\nRudesind had had a wife and kids, and girls seemed to have liked Fechin, or\nhe them. Anyway, I suppose it best to think of Inire as just another\nsplit-off version of a Hierogrammate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inire as a Hierogrammate-let, I can buy. It could also be a lead on his \n\"real\" name, since if Zak is a particle of Tzadkiel, perhaps Inire is a \nsubset of \"Entire\" or \"innir vandlega\" or something." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }