{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5091", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5091, "subject": "bsharp's Inire theory", "messages": 23, "voices": 6, "first": "2008-07-07T03:10:05+00:00", "last": "2008-07-10T16:23:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-07T03:10:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And where is it writ that Inire is a member of T's race?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Severian identifies Inire and the Cumaean as hierodules to B, F \nand O and gets no argument. Does that count?\n\nJeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Suppose I am Inire, and too busy doing transcendent things to date. How\ndoes it help me quench my desire for a young lady's company to bud off a\nboatman who departs, perhaps to reunite in 50 or so yeasr, perhaps not,\nespecially when I am already in close cahoots with the owner of a\nyouth-oriented clone bordello? Surely he could keep a really young one\non hand, perhaps in return for a new section of the Botanical Gardens\nfor he and his bees to enjoy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is SO unromantic! A guy is supposed to replace several lifetimes of true\nlove with a string of prostitutes? ;-)\n\nAnyway, I wouldn't think the budding off of a boatman (of course he wasn't \nnecessarily a boatman then) was for the purpose of meeting Dorcas. Probably \nthe opposite, she was an accident and a distraction.\n\nI'll note that my version of this theory relies on the idea that Wolfe patterned\nthe superhumans inhabiting Urth on the pre-Christian gods and monsters we \nfind in ancient mythology. I glean from interviews that Wolfe likes the idea that\nancient gods and monsters were not just baseless fantasies but representations\nof real beings back then. \n\nAnd the Bible seems to provide a suggestion that there were supernatural beings\nwho could change their form, present themselves as false gods and mate with \nhumans, corrupting our race- these being fallen angels or demons- superhuman\noffshoots of God who diverted from his purpose. Similar to what some of \nthe cacogens of Urth were doing, I think.\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48718D56.8060406@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-07T03:28:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And where is it writ that Inire is a member of T's race?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Severian identifies Inire and the Cumaean as hierodules to B, F \nand O and gets no argument. Does that count?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since Tzadkiel is a Hierogrammate rather than a Hierodule, no it doesn't \ncount." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Suppose I am Inire, and too busy doing transcendent things to date. How\ndoes it help me quench my desire for a young lady's company to bud off a\nboatman who departs, perhaps to reunite in 50 or so yeasr, perhaps not,\nespecially when I am already in close cahoots with the owner of a\nyouth-oriented clone bordello? Surely he could keep a really young one\non hand, perhaps in return for a new section of the Botanical Gardens\nfor he and his bees to enjoy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is SO unromantic! A guy is supposed to replace several lifetimes of true\nlove with a string of prostitutes? ;-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What kind of true love is he getting by lying about his species, or by \ntrying to impress pre-pubscent Chatelaines? You've repeatedly painted \nhim as a xenopedophile." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-07T14:10:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<48718D56.8060406@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson says in response to the suggestion that Hierodules are of the race \nof Hierogrammates:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...no it doesn't count." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where DO hierodules come from? The larvae of Tzadkiel would seem to be involved\nin sexual reproduction. Tzadkiel herself engages in asexual budding and compares the\nprocess to that of Porifera sponges which reproduce both sexually and asexually. Are \nhierodules completely separate from these processes? I think they say a couple times\nthey don't serve Tzadkiel but rather the Increate directly so perhaps that is the case.\n\nRegarding Inire's love life Jeff says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What kind of true love is he getting by lying about his species, or by \ntrying to impress pre-pubscent Chatelaines? You've repeatedly painted \nhim as a xenopedophile." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cheeky chap! Fancy judging the gods' morality by contemporary Western standards. The \nlegends seem to portray a range of devotion levels between gods and mortals. Some are\ntrue and sincere such as Cupid and Psyche or Diana and Camilla. Others are midrange like\nAphrodite and Adonis or Apollo and Hecuba. Then we have Zeus who appears to have been \nthe Bill Clinton of Mount Olympus, seducing or raping a long line of human females (I think\nEuropa was 12) in the guise of a bull, a swan, a golden shower of light etc... And (shades of \nTyphon) there were even a few pretty boys in the mix. But Bill does truly love Dorc..\n..um, Hillary, yes?\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40807071410n2ac4c8ebhfc6b1e61ffe9553f@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-07T21:10:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nWhere DO hierodules come from? The larvae of Tzadkiel would seem to be involved\nin sexual reproduction. Tzadkiel herself engages in asexual budding and compares the\nprocess to that of Porifera sponges which reproduce both sexually and asexually. Are\nhierodules completely separate from these processes? I think they say a couple times\nthey don't serve Tzadkiel but rather the Increate directly so perhaps that is the case." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev says in Citadel XXXIV:\n\"...they (the Hierogrammates) look both forward and back, and in so looking\nthey have discovered us.... The Hierodules they have found too, and formed\nmore quickly, to serve them in this universe. On their instructions, the\nHierodules construct such ships as the one that bore me from the jungle to\nthe sea, so that aquastors like Malrubius and Triskele may serve them also.\"\n\nHumans have been found, and are to be formed into Hieros. Hierodules seem to\nbe another species that was found and \"formed more quickly\" into usable\nentities by the Hierogrammates. It doesn't look to me like Hierodules are\nbudded-off like little Tzadkiel or a larval form like Apheta.\n\nThe business of the Hierodules constructing ships under the command of the\nHierogrammates contrasts with what Father Inire says of his own ship\nproblems in his letter in Citadel XXXV. He says: \"You will perhaps consider\nthe ship I summoned to aid my master, the autarch of his day, inadequate --\nas for that matter do I -- yet it was the best I could obtain, and I was\nhard-pressed to get it. I myself have been forced to travel south otherwise,\nand much more slowly; the time may come soon when my cousins are ready to\nside not just with humankind but with *us* -- but for the present they\npersist in viewing Urth as somewhat less significant than many of the\ncolonized worlds...\"\n\nI take \"the ship I summoned\" to be the birdlike aliens who attempt to rescue\nthe Autarch and Sev from the Ascians at the end of Citadel XXV. They fail,\nand the two are carried off by Agia and Hethor instead. It seems these alien\n\"cousins\" don't have the Hierogrammate point-of-view about the importance of\nUrth. If Inire were a Hierogrammate (or even a high-ranking Hierodule) then\nhe should be able to do better than this. He could be lying, but making\nlying excuses doesn't seem like a good way to win the confidence of the new\nautarch.\n\nStill, Inire is of a \"short-lived race\" (Citadel XXXVIII), and the B,F,O\nHierodules are said to live \"a score of years, like dogs\" (Sword XXXIII).\nThere has to be a connection. Probably both are creations of the\nHierogrammates from the same original life-forms. Their shorter lifespans\nmay have made it easier to accelerate their evolution. Multiple types of\nHierodules seem to have been made, with different roles." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370807071423n3061699fi4d3a3d357a844775@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-07T21:23:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40807071410n2ac4c8ebhfc6b1e61ffe9553f@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's try to make this as simple as possible...\n\nHierogrammates (whom some here call simply \"Hieros\") are the human race of the\nprevioius cycle of the Universe, or their descendants.\n\nHierodules are beings of the same cycle as Severian, bred up to help in the task\nof raising Humanity to Hiero-status.\n\nTheir relationship is something like that of the Overlords to the Overmind in\nClarke's _Childhood's End_." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a\nrestaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand\nIsland Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001401c8e0ac$56ba3620$a3ce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-08T03:40:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370807071423n3061699fi4d3a3d357a844775@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nThe business of the Hierodules constructing ships under the command of the\nHierogrammates contrasts with what Father Inire says of his own ship\nproblems in his letter in Citadel XXXV. He says: \"You will perhaps consider\nthe ship I summoned to aid my master, the autarch of his day, inadequate --\nas for that matter do I -- yet it was the best I could obtain, and I was\nhard-pressed to get it. I myself have been forced to travel south\notherwise,\nand much more slowly; the time may come soon when my cousins are ready to\nside not just with humankind but with *us* -- but for the present they\npersist in viewing Urth as somewhat less significant than many of the\ncolonized worlds...\"\n\nI take \"the ship I summoned\" to be the birdlike aliens who attempt to\nrescue\nthe Autarch and Sev from the Ascians at the end of Citadel XXV. They fail,\nand the two are carried off by Agia and Hethor instead." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The *ship* Inire summoned was the Hierodule ship that carried Malrubius and\nTriskele, and eventually carried Sev from the jungle to the ocean. Inire had\nno way of knowing that the Old Autarch's flier had been shot down. The Old\nAutarch had sent out a message after the crash to Vodalus, and the message\nwas received. Vodalus sent the pteriopes under the command of Agia and\nHethor. They rescued the autarch and Sev from the Ascian evzones. Agia to\nSev: \"and in the end you will come into my hands again, as you did when our\npteriopes took you from the evzones.\" (CITADEL, XXX)\n\nInire was the jungle shaman who was trying to help the Old Autarch. When\nAgia and the Green Man arrived at the tent, they didn't know the Old Autarch\nwas dead inside, and they worked together only after they arrived. Agia was\nalready at the jungle camp and the Green Man got there by way of the\nCorridors, as did the Hierodule ship. As the Green Man said, \"However, you\nought to know that I was not alone: There are others questing there -- I\nshall send two of them to you.\" (ibid.) This was more than a week after the\nflier was shot down." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems these alien\n\"cousins\" don't have the Hierogrammate point-of-view about the importance\nof\nUrth. If Inire were a Hierogrammate (or even a high-ranking Hierodule) then\nhe should be able to do better than this. He could be lying, but making\nlying excuses doesn't seem like a good way to win the confidence of the new\nautarch.\n\nStill, Inire is of a \"short-lived race\" (Citadel XXXVIII), and the B,F,O\nHierodules are said to live \"a score of years, like dogs\" (Sword XXXIII).\nThere has to be a connection. Probably both are creations of the\nHierogrammates from the same original life-forms. Their shorter lifespans\nmay have made it easier to accelerate their evolution. Multiple types of\nHierodules seem to have been made, with different roles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Immediately before reading the letter, Sev spoke to Rudesind of Inire: \"We\nknow your master is what the people call a cacogen, and that for whatever\nreason, he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely\nwith humanity, remaining on Urth as a human being. The Cumaean is another\nsuch, though perhaps you did not know that.\"\n\nFuel for the fire. Obviously, Inire is an alien of some sort, not a human\nbeing. But he is capable of taking on the form of one.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4872EC40.1010609@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T04:25:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<001401c8e0ac$56ba3620$a3ce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nDave Tallman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Still, Inire is of a \"short-lived race\" (Citadel XXXVIII), and the B,F,O\nHierodules are said to live \"a score of years, like dogs\" (Sword XXXIII).\nThere has to be a connection. Probably both are creations of the\nHierogrammates from the same original life-forms. Their shorter lifespans\nmay have made it easier to accelerate their evolution. Multiple types of\nHierodules seem to have been made, with different roles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems like a stretch for Inire to serve the Autarchs for a thousand \nyears when he only lives for 20 himself, even using time travel to skip \nover the boring parts but still create the Second House and the \nBotanical Gardens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Immediately before reading the letter, Sev spoke to Rudesind of Inire: \"We\nknow your master is what the people call a cacogen, and that for whatever\nreason, he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely\nwith humanity, remaining on Urth as a human being. The Cumaean is another\nsuch, though perhaps you did not know that.\"\n\nFuel for the fire. Obviously, Inire is an alien of some sort, not a human\nbeing. But he is capable of taking on the form of one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't the heirodules already have humanlike faces, under their \"scary \nalien\" masks? I don't see Inire as a shapeshiter so much as an actor, he \nputs on a hood and robe to hide his nonhuman proportions and carries a \nwalking stick for support in Urth's gravity and passes as a wizened old \nman. Urthers see the hood, the robe, a few sparkly doodads of vague \nfunction, hear the archaic speech he learnt from colonials long \ndeparted, and call him \"Father Inire\" on the assumption he's a priest; \nhe doesn't deny this as he is most certainly a servant of the higher \npowers in heaven/Yesod." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4872F135.4010203@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T04:46:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370807071423n3061699fi4d3a3d357a844775@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nLet's try to make this as simple as possible...\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As Einstein once said, \"Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hierogrammates (whom some here call simply \"Hieros\") are the human race of the\nprevioius cycle of the Universe, or their descendants.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've made this mistake myself, but Hieros and Hierogrammates are not the \nsame. Hieros were human-congates of the last universe cycle who formed \nthe Hierogrammates from another race of beings, making them better than \nhumans. The Hierogrammates plan to use the humans of Briah to form the \nnext iteration of Hieros." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hierodules are beings of the same cycle as Severian, bred up to help in the task\nof raising Humanity to Hiero-status.\n\nTheir relationship is something like that of the Overlords to the Overmind in\nClarke's _Childhood's End_.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Childhood's End\" is an interesting reference. I wonder if BotNS was \npartly inspired by it, because it also involves an attempt to raise \nhumanity to the next level which is catastrophic to Earth." } ] }, { "message_id": "<006001c8e0b8$d746ba00$a3ce4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-08T05:09:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<4872F135.4010203@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nRoy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Still, Inire is of a \"short-lived race\" (Citadel XXXVIII), and the B,F,O\nHierodules are said to live \"a score of years, like dogs\" (Sword\nXXXIII).\nThere has to be a connection. Probably both are creations of the\nHierogrammates from the same original life-forms. Their shorter\nlifespans\nmay have made it easier to accelerate their evolution. Multiple types of\nHierodules seem to have been made, with different roles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems like a stretch for Inire to serve the Autarchs for a thousand\nyears when he only lives for 20 himself, even using time travel to skip\nover the boring parts but still create the Second House and the\nBotanical Gardens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nevertheless, the line Dave referenced reads: \"[...]old Father Inire, alive\nso long beyond the span of his short-lived kind[...]\". Whatever the\nexplanation, that's the way it was, and that's what we have to work with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Immediately before reading the letter, Sev spoke to Rudesind of Inire:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"We" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "know your master is what the people call a cacogen, and that for whatever\nreason, he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots\nentirely\nwith humanity, remaining on Urth as a human being. The Cumaean is another\nsuch, though perhaps you did not know that.\"\n\nFuel for the fire. Obviously, Inire is an alien of some sort, not a human\nbeing. But he is capable of taking on the form of one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't the heirodules already have humanlike faces, under their \"scary\nalien\" masks?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Barbatus and Famulimus do. After taking Sev to their cabin on the Ship they\nremoved their masks:\n\n\"Famulimus's falsely human face was gone, revealing\nsome huge-eyed horror with needle teeth; she pulled that\naway as well, and I saw (for one last time, as I then\nbelieved) the beauty of a goddess not born of woman.\"\n(URTH, V, 35)\n\nBarbatus is described as \"handsome, inhuman\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see Inire as a shapeshiter so much as an actor, he\nputs on a hood and robe to hide his nonhuman proportions and carries a\nwalking stick for support in Urth's gravity and passes as a wizened old\nman. Urthers see the hood, the robe, a few sparkly doodads of vague\nfunction, hear the archaic speech he learnt from colonials long\ndeparted, and call him \"Father Inire\" on the assumption he's a priest;\nhe doesn't deny this as he is most certainly a servant of the higher\npowers in heaven/Yesod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A \"holy slave\" need not be restricted to only one race of beings.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4872FFDF.4070909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T05:49:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<4872F135.4010203@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Let's try to make this as simple as possible...\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As Einstein once said, \"Make things as simple as possible, but not \nsimpler.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hierogrammates (whom some here call simply \"Hieros\") are the human \nrace of the\nprevioius cycle of the Universe, or their descendants.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've made this mistake myself, but Hieros and Hierogrammates are not the \nsame. Hieros were human-congates of the last universe cycle who formed \nthe Hierogrammates from another race of beings, making them better than \nhumans. The Hierogrammates plan to use the humans of Briah to form the \nnext iteration of Hieros." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hierodules are beings of the same cycle as Severian, bred up to help \nin the task\nof raising Humanity to Hiero-status.\n\nTheir relationship is something like that of the Overlords to the \nOvermind in\nClarke's _Childhood's End_.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Childhood's End\" is an interesting reference. I wonder if BotNS was \npartly inspired by it, because it also involves an attempt to raise \nhumanity to the next level which is catastrophic to Earth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no \"attempt,\" the transcendence is a natural process. The \nOverlords intercede only to prevent the human race from destroying \nitself before the transformation can be completed." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T12:42:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<4872FFDF.4070909@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Roy makes some good arguments that the summoned ship is Malrubius'\nand Triskele's. At least that is a ship rather than a creature or open top flyer. My \nconcern is that if it was summoned for the old Autarch, Malrubius and Triskele\nshouldn't be there. It seems clear aquastors are assigned to one person and\ncan only be seen/heard by that person. Would Appian see his aquastor, Paeon,\nflying the ship?\n\nRoy notes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A \"holy slave\" need not be restricted to only one race of beings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, but I can't help but think Inire and the Cumaean are fundamentally\ndifferent than Famulimus and Barbatus. \n\nThe latter are so tall, so graceful so beautiful. They are short-lived. They wear\n a couple uncomfortable masks and are careful to work only tangentially with \nthe human race. Their true nature seems above human.\n\nThe former seem old and ugly. They live a very long time. They don't wear masks\nand are capable of shape changing and they interact directly with the human race.\nTheir true nature seems animalistic.\n\nWhen Severian says: \"know your master is what the people call a cacogen, and that \nfor whatever reason, he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots\nentirely with humanity, remaining on Urth as a human being. The Cumaean is another\nsuch..\"\n\nI assign a lot of meaning to the disclaimer, \"for whatever reason\". I don't see these \ntwo working for the New Sun. I think they have developed some bad habits. Inire his\nexo-pedophilia I think Jeff calls it? And the Cumaean trying to raise the dead and \ncollecting souls , represented by the faces Severian sees on her snake-like body. \n(Dave Tallman do you really see The Cumaean as a kindly old woman in contrast\nto Mme. Prisca?)\n\nBarbatus and Famulimus clearly eschew the debauchery of these two, remaining\nabove it. I think if Inire and the Cumaean are of the race of angels they have clearly\nfallen (the play does happen to have two demons). Maybe broke they broke the other \nEdenic taboo and ate from the Tree of Life? While perhaps these two are not \"evil\" \n(Ava warns us against the dichotomy) I think maybe they corrupted the human race \nnecessitating a cleansing. Surely neither Inire or the Cumaean survives on Ushas.\n\nPerhaps Severian is successful in Yesod because unlike previous autarchs he is able to\ntranscend the stagnating influences these two have been perpetrating: war, incest, \nwitchcraft, alzabo-type soul collecting etc.\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world?\nhttp://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48739D26.8050909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T17:00:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nThe former seem old and ugly. They live a very long time. They don't wear masks\nand are capable of shape changing and they interact directly with the human race.\nTheir true nature seems animalistic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can you point out the shape-changing incidents for Inire and the Cumaean?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T18:26:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<48739D26.8050909@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can you point out the shape-changing incidents for Inire and the Cumaean?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Depends. What is the purpose of your question? If you are asking for obvious,\nclear text descriptions I suppose it is obvious there isn't much of that. Was that\nthe point you wanted to make?\n\nI'd say the closest we get is the old woman Cumaean revealed to be in an endless \nsnake form on the roof in the Stone Town (Uroburos? Hildegren says she is on the\n other side of the world from Nessus, perhaps she wraps all the way around the world?)\n\nRoy offered a Severian quote a few posts back that implies a similar human/\nnon-human shape shifting ability for Father Inire. Aside from the various human\ncharacters I suspect Inire is playing, I suspect he is also the baboon who \nchecks on Severian in the hospital after the avern fight and the uakari who \nlooks like a little old man watching Severian after his House Absolute visit.\n(well, all uakaris do look that way, plus they have Fechin-like red hair: \nhttp://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=uakari&gbv=2 )\n\nThe Cumaean might be some of the snakes peeking at Severian on his trip here\nand there but from the secret knowledge (raising the dead?) he hopes to glean in \nthe Ziggurat working with Severian's blood, I wonder if the Old Leech is another \nversion of her. I tend to think the roof seance in the Stone Town was more about\nexperimenting with Severian than Apu Punchau. If she is the provider of alzabo fluid \nto Vodalus and if she is also Ceryx then she has mastered a number of ways to raise\n the dead, none of them very nice, like Severian's power, which she might deeply covet.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world?\nhttp://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001001c8e135$4e7eaca0$2fcd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-08T20:00:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "bsharp wrote:\nI think Roy makes some good arguments that the summoned ship is Malrubius'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Triskele's. At least that is a ship rather than a creature or open top\nflyer. My concern is that if it was summoned for the old Autarch, Malrubius\nand Triskele shouldn't be there.<<\n\nInire's letter said he summoned a ship to aid his former master, the Old\nAutarch. The Hierodule ship is the *only* ship of any kind in the jungle\nafter the flier was shot down. While the group was on the march, Sev saw the\nold shaman (Inire) sneak into the mortally injured autarch's palanquin.\nThat's why he told Rudesind \"We even know that your master was with us in\nthe jungles of the north, where he tried until it was too late to rescue my\npredecessor.\" The Hierodules were slow to respond with a rescue ship,\nprobably because they wanted Sev to become autarch. With the Old Autarch\ndead and Sev then autarch, the plans changed. They sent Malrubius and\nTriskele to sway Sev and carry him from harm's way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I assign a lot of meaning to the disclaimer, \"for whatever reason\". I\ndon't see these two working for the New Sun. I think they have developed\nsome bad habits. Inire his exo-pedophilia I think Jeff calls it? And the\nCumaean trying to raise the dead and collecting souls , represented by the\nfaces Severian sees on her snake-like body.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is absolutely no way I can fit that idea into what I thought was your\nbasic theory about Inire.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1449.165.95.146.29.1215554065.squirrel@webmail.io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T21:54:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Can you point out the shape-changing incidents for Inire and the Cumaean?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Depends. What is the purpose of your question? If you are asking for\nobvious,\nclear text descriptions I suppose it is obvious there isn't much of that.\nWas that\nthe point you wanted to make?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dare I ask for something that indicates they are shapeshifters, regardless\nof the point being made? Y'know, objectively?\n\nJeff" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40807081510h2ea2cb12jb021361f6a2d16aa@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T22:10:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<1449.165.95.146.29.1215554065.squirrel@webmail.io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "b sharp wrote:\n\n(Dave Tallman do you really see The Cumaean as a kindly old woman in contrast" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to Mme. Prisca?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Cumaean seems quite compassionate -- she nursed Jolenta, a stranger she\nhad no reason to help. I don't know if the face patterns on her snake-skin\nrepresent stolen souls -- all of them are rapt in contemplation, so they may\njust be aspects of her mystical nature.\n\nPrisca is known to be very cruel, not just for the trick she played on Sev\nbut also the fact that Ymar kicked women out of the guild for going beyond\nthe punishments mandated by law. That must have been based on what Ymar saw\nPrisca doing, as well as any other women who followed her lead.\n\nBut the main reason I don't like the Cumaean/Prisca theory is that the\nCumean is highly mystically aware. She seems to be able to read minds and\nforetell the future. As Myrrn says in Sev's dream, dreams allow visions\noutside of time, and the Cumaean never wakes. Allowing Sev an opening for\nan attack at close range was really dumb -- showing a lack of awareness of\nhis capabilities. Please don't say that this was a faked death scene, staged\nso that the Conciliator could have another miracle. We have too many\ntheories where it's all a show for Sev, to the point where his life is\nalmost like solipsism.\n\nBarbatus and Famulimus clearly eschew the debauchery of these two, remaining" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "above it. I think if Inire and the Cumaean are of the race of angels they have clearly\nfallen (the play does happen to have two demons). Maybe broke they broke the other\nEdenic taboo and ate from the Tree of Life? While perhaps these two are not \"evil\"\n(Ava warns us against the dichotomy) I think maybe they corrupted the human race\nnecessitating a cleansing. Surely neither Inire or the Cumaean survives on Ushas" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's definitely a competition for resources among the Hierodules, if\nInire is telling the truth about how difficult it was to get the ship. Inire\nseems more invested in the success of the Commonweath, where A,B, and O stay\nabove it (just as they stay out of the fight between Baldanders and the lake\nmen). Perhaps Inire is letting Sev know that just because he has connections\nto powerful aliens does not mean they will lend him much aid in fighting his\nwars. They have a bigger picture in mind." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-09T11:57:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40807081510h2ea2cb12jb021361f6a2d16aa@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson asks: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dare I ask for something that indicates they are shapeshifters, regardless\nof the point being made? Y'know, objectively?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think there may be a difference in interpretation. I've noted before I tend\nto interpret the story more from an artistic perspective than scientific. Because\nart has a Creator, the process ends up being closer to theologic. Since Wolfe is a\nman of science I think it is certainly useful to make hypotheses and scour for objective\nevidence which makes logical sense within a scientific model. But I find that approach\nto be incomplete without also relying on intuition, allusion and inference, where parables\nand dreams are just as important as events in the \"real\" world. in trying to divine the \nCreator's intention.\n\nI am willing to consider shape shifting as an explanation for wtf is going on underneath\nthis story. Shape shifters are prominent in 5HoC (as is cloning and the resulting identity\nissues from these two processes) and I sense a connection between that story and this\none. Shapeshifters are found in some of the stories within this story and in some of the \ndream sequences. I see those as important hints to what is going on in the main story\nbut if others don't I'm not insisting they are wrong and I am right.\n\nJeff I am a bit unclear if you are being serious or specious on your mentions that you think\nJuturna is Severian's sister. I can see some evidence she is a family member but what\nare the reasons you are thinking sister?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<283959.58899.qm@web83721.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-07-09T12:41:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't even see why Juturna is related at all to\nSeverian. Is Juturna human? Can someone enlighten\nme?\n\nJack" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- b sharp wrote:\n\nJeff Wilson asks: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dare I ask for something that indicates they are\nshapeshifters, regardless\nof the point being made? Y'know, objectively?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there may be a difference in interpretation.\nI've noted before I tend\nto interpret the story more from an artistic\nperspective than scientific. Because\nart has a Creator, the process ends up being closer\nto theologic. Since Wolfe is a\nman of science I think it is certainly useful to\nmake hypotheses and scour for objective\nevidence which makes logical sense within a\nscientific model. But I find that approach\nto be incomplete without also relying on intuition,\nallusion and inference, where parables\nand dreams are just as important as events in the\n\"real\" world. in trying to divine the \nCreator's intention.\n\nI am willing to consider shape shifting as an\nexplanation for wtf is going on underneath\nthis story. Shape shifters are prominent in 5HoC (as\nis cloning and the resulting identity\nissues from these two processes) and I sense a\nconnection between that story and this\none. Shapeshifters are found in some of the stories\nwithin this story and in some of the \ndream sequences. I see those as important hints to\nwhat is going on in the main story\nbut if others don't I'm not insisting they are wrong\nand I am right.\n\nJeff I am a bit unclear if you are being serious or\nspecious on your mentions that you think\nJuturna is Severian's sister. I can see some\nevidence she is a family member but what\nare the reasons you are thinking sister?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48750CD4.6030104@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-09T19:09:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nJeff Wilson asks: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dare I ask for something that indicates they are shapeshifters, regardless\nof the point being made? Y'know, objectively?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there may be a difference in interpretation. I've noted before I tend\nto interpret the story more from an artistic perspective than scientific." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't have to be scientific evidence, just textual evidence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff I am a bit unclear if you are being serious or specious on your mentions that you think\nJuturna is Severian's sister. I can see some evidence she is a family member but what\nare the reasons you are thinking sister?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm serious in thinking she is a contender for sister, and I am serious \nthat she is a candidate for shapeshifting dopplegangerhood, more so than \nInire.\n\nI'm still assembling my case, but to summarize:\n\n - Undine-hood accounts for any differences in coloring and height\n\n - sibling relationship explains J's inconsistent behavior as \nconflicting loyalty to Abaia and to brother\n\n - J doesn't just save Sev from drowning, but apparently passes on \nwater-breathing gift, effectively saving him from *ever* drowning and \nexplains how he is able to spend hours or days underwater late in URTH \neven when he has lost his mojo\n\n - Merryn is a stunted, land-raised changeling" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48750E58.3000007@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-09T19:15:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<283959.58899.qm@web83721.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Smith wrote:\nI don't even see why Juturna is related at all to\nSeverian. Is Juturna human? Can someone enlighten\nme?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Baldanders demonstrates humans can become enormous water-breathers. \nJuturna was likely turned at a very young age, and being from the land \nherself is better at manipulating air-breathers than the average bear." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000e01c8e21f$afdb2f60$ebd24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-09T23:58:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<48750E58.3000007@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "bsharp quoted and wrote:\nA \"holy slave\" need not be restricted to only one race of beings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "True, but I can't help but think Inire and the Cumaean are fundamentally\ndifferent than Famulimus and Barbatus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The latter are so tall, so graceful so beautiful. They are short-lived." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They wear a couple uncomfortable masks and are careful to work only\ntangentially with the human race. Their true nature seems above human." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The former seem old and ugly. They live a very long time. They don't wear\nmasks and are capable of shape changing and they interact directly with the\nhuman race. Their true nature seems animalistic.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find this hard to square with the exchange Sev had with B,F & O in Apu's\ntomb.\n\n\"'... the Cumaean, she was a Hierodule, like you. Father Inire told me.'\nFamulimus and Barbatus nodded.\"\n\nSev had already brought the New Sun and Ushas was a reality back in the\nfuture Sev had fled from to the past, and B, F & O knew that; they said so.\nWhy would they acknowledge that the Cumaean was a Hierodule at that stage of\nthe game, but not point out that she had been some sort of corrupted agent\nof the cause? The game was over.\n\nA holy slave serves the Increate, not the Hierogrammates or humanity.\n\nYou go on to say:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Barbatus and Famulimus clearly eschew the debauchery of these two,\nremaining" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "above it. I think if Inire and the Cumaean are of the race of angels they\nhave clearly\nfallen (the play does happen to have two demons). Maybe broke they broke the\nother\nEdenic taboo and ate from the Tree of Life? While perhaps these two are not\n\"evil\"\n(Ava warns us against the dichotomy) I think maybe they corrupted the human\nrace\nnecessitating a cleansing. Surely neither Inire or the Cumaean survives on\nUshas.<<\n\nIf they didn't survive on Ushas, nothing that B, F & O said to Sev in the\ndistant past could change the fact of Ushas. Why not disabuse him of false\nnotions?\n\nThe human race had been corrupted, in the biblical sense, long, long before\nthe Cumaean and Inire arrived on the scene. And the sins of the First Empire\nwere ancient history, even in Typhon's time. No matter who was responsible\nfor the black hole or when it was put in the sun, it was there and required\na white hole to fix it. The campaign to repair the black hole in Urth's sun\nbegan at the tail-end of Typhon's reign, with the establishment of the\nConciliator religion.\n\nEven if you posit some sort of fallen-angel/demonic contamination of the\nhuman race by sex-crazed non-humans of any stripe, I don't see that it has\nany meaningful relevance. I don't see that lust, with or without incest, has\nanything to do with a black hole in the sun, which is what would lead to the\n\"do nothing\" future, the future of ice. I know of no evidence to suggest\nthat Inire was on Urth before Ymar's reign. At most, any hypothetical sexual\nmonkey business delayed the coming of the New Sun by a thousand years or so.\nGiven the Hierogrammates had all the time in the universe(s), that's no big\ndeal from their viewpoint, or the Increate's.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-10T12:04:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "<000e01c8e21f$afdb2f60$ebd24a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. Lackey quotes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"'... the Cumaean, she was a Hierodule, like you. Father Inire told me.' \nFamulimus and Barbatus nodded.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy wonders why they don't tell Severian more details. I would say that,\nas demonstrated with Baldanders, they are prone to divulge a bare \nminimum of information. Only what is needed. Perhaps the nod is only\nto acknowledege \"yes, that's what Father Inire told you\".\n\nEither way I don't see how this addresses my observation that Famulimus\n and Barbatus unveiled are super-humanly beautiful while The Cumaean\nunveiled is a weird snake-being and I see no evidence that Father Inire is \nbeautiful under his cowl.\n\nBut I'm glad Roy brought the quote to attention. I hadn't noticed the\nword \"was\" before. Why the past tense? Was she formerly a hierodule\nbut became something else? Or is that just an imprecise way for Severian\nto say he hadn't seen her for a while?\n\nWhere do The Cumaean and more importantly Father Inire go during the\nevents of UotNS? Has Wolfe casually dismissed them as too unimportant\nto explain? Severian figures Father Inire won't long survive the old sun's\npassing, but why? He lasted 1000 years (most of which Severian remembers)\nwhy couldn't he hold out for another 60 years?\n\nMy own answer is literary/religious. I think those two plus Abaia and Erebus etc.\ngo to the same place Zeus and Hera etc. go after the time of Jesus. But if anyone\nhas other ideas about them, I am interested.\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world?\nhttp://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4876379F.3000406@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-10T16:23:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) bsharp's Inire theory", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "b sharp wrote:\nMy own answer is literary/religious. I think those two plus Abaia and Erebus etc.\ngo to the same place Zeus and Hera etc. go after the time of Jesus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To an alternate universe with where their misguided worshipers suffer \nthe inevitable consequences of idol worship like being forced to choose \nbetween celibacy and and early, painful death or being satisfied with \nonly black and white television?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }