{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5093", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5093, "subject": "Inire and House Absolute", "messages": 7, "voices": 4, "first": "2008-07-07T22:31:25+00:00", "last": "2008-07-09T13:12:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<001c01c8e081$34f789a0$3ad14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-07T22:31:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire and House Absolute", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inire is specifically credited for the construction of the Second House and\nthe camouflage landscaping above the House Absolute. The Old Autarch said:\n\n\"Oh, no. All these things...\" He paused. \"And a hundred more like them, make\nup what we call the Second House. They are the work of Father Inire, who was\ncalled by the first Autarch to create a secret palace within the walls of\nthe House Absolute. You or I, my son, would no doubt have built a mere suite\nof concealed rooms. He contrived that the hidden house should be everywhere\ncoextensive with the public one.\" (CLAW, XX)\n\nSince the Old Autarch knew that Ymar was the first autarch, the quote\nsuggests that the House Absolute itself antedated the autarchy. Comments\nmade by Nicarete about the Antechamber suggest the same. So who built the\nHouse Absolute, and when?\n\nCyriaca's tale suggests that Typhon was the ruler responsible for the\nbuilding of the Curtain Wall around the Citadel. That wall was a scaled-down\nversion of the great Wall of Nessus, and was made of the same unsmeltable\nmetal. Did the same ruler cause both walls to be built? The Citadel\nantedated the autarchy but was linked to the House Absolute by the\nspace-warping properties of the passages in the Second House.\n\nI know of nothing in the Urth Cycle to suggest that Inire was involved with\nTyphon, and the above quote suggests that Inire was summoned to Urth. How\nwas Inire \"called by\" Ymar? Called from where? How would Ymar even know of\nhim?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4872B088.9080806@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T00:10:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire and House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<001c01c8e081$34f789a0$3ad14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nCyriaca's tale suggests that Typhon was the ruler responsible for the\nbuilding of the Curtain Wall around the Citadel. That wall was a scaled-down\nversion of the great Wall of Nessus, and was made of the same unsmeltable\nmetal. Did the same ruler cause both walls to be built? The Citadel\nantedated the autarchy but was linked to the House Absolute by the\nspace-warping properties of the passages in the Second House." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do we know for sure the links are unusual, rather than \"just\" tunnels?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T03:35:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire and House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<4872B088.9080806@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So who built the House Absolute, and when?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cyriaca's tale suggests that Typhon was the ruler responsible for the\nbuilding of the Curtain Wall around the Citadel. That wall was a scaled-down\nversion of the great Wall of Nessus, and was made of the same unsmeltable\nmetal. Did the same ruler cause both walls to be built? The Citadel\nantedated the autarchy but was linked to the House Absolute by the\nspace-warping properties of the passages in the Second House." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know of nothing in the Urth Cycle to suggest that Inire was involved with\nTyphon, and the above quote suggests that Inire was summoned to Urth. How\nwas Inire \"called by\" Ymar? Called from where? How would Ymar even know of\nhim?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've wondered the same things and one answer is that there is no answer. That\nWolfe didn't develop that part of the story enough in his own mind for there to be\na reasonable answer.\n\nBut if there is an answer, perhaps Borski was on the right track. He thinks Ceryx\nwas Father Inire in disguise and Madame Prefect Prisca was The Cumaean. They \nwere born in the future, did all their work moving backward in time and then they \nboth die more or less at the hand of Severian in the past. The arguments for Prisca\nbeing The Cumaean are weaker, I think, relying on the Latin origin of her name, \nparalleling \"Cumaean\", \"Camoena\" and \"Inire\".\n\nThe whole idea presents some awkwardness and trying to work with his theory, I've\nconsidered the alternative- that Inire and The Cumaean were immortal, lived forward \nin time and were just faking their deaths. Moreover, while hooded Ceryx with a head \non a staff and magical eyes does resemble some likely Father Inire incarnations, his \nobsession with raising the dead calls the Cumaean to mind also (and her association \nwith witches and Hildegrin who both raise the dead). \n\nCould Father Inire and The Cumaean be the same entity?\n\nIf we can assign some version of Inire/Cumaean to being Madame Prefect Prisca \nthen perhaps there is the connection: she/he served as an official of Typhon's government\nand had familiarity with Ymar. So perhaps Father Inire served Typhon and Typhon's society\n in numerous roles as he would continue to do for the autarchs. Given Typhon's alien origin \nhe might actually have been Typhon's servant who became independent after Typhon's \ndeath (well, dehydration) but chose to be the vizier/power behind the throne rather than \nthe face of power. \n\nHardly an elegant theory but that's all I've got at the present moment.\n\n-bsharp\n\n\n_________________________________________________________________\nMaking the world a better place one message at a time.\nhttp://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_BetterPlace" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4872FBC6.1040306@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T05:31:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire and House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "b sharp wrote:\n/I know of nothing in the Urth Cycle to suggest that Inire was involved with\n/>/Typhon, and the above quote suggests that Inire was summoned to Urth. How\n/>/was Inire \"called by\" Ymar? Called from where? How would Ymar even know of\n/>/him?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/\nI've wondered the same things and one answer is that there is no answer. That\nWolfe didn't develop that part of the story enough in his own mind for there to be\na reasonable answer.\n\nBut if there is an answer, perhaps Borski was on the right track. He thinks Ceryx\nwas Father Inire in disguise and Madame Prefect Prisca was The Cumaean. They \nwere born in the future, did all their work moving backward in time and then they \nboth die more or less at the hand of Severian in the past. The arguments for Prisca\nbeing The Cumaean are weaker, I think, relying on the Latin origin of her name, \nparalleling \"Cumaean\", \"Camoena\" and \"Inire\".\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's another possibility: the word \"called\" might connect with \n\"caller\" (as Hethor is designated by Father Inire in his letter). Hethor \nused mirrors to bring alien creatures to Urth. But who in Ymar's time \nmight have access to Ship mirrors? I suggest Burgundofara, who was \nbriefly a sailor on the Ship and would be again as Gunnie. In fact, \nGunnie might have slipped her younger self the mirrors before she left.\n\nBy the way, here's a Roman god reference for Father Inire's name that I \nhave never seen on this board, on \nhttp://ancienthistory.about.com/library/dailygod/blg05013.htm\n\n\"Inuus was a a Roman fertility god whose name may be connected with a \nLatin word for copulation (/inire/). Livy said he was the god originally \nworshipped at the Lupercalia. Inuus is sometimes identified with Faunus.\"\nThis seems a much better match than Abraxus (but maybe they are the same).\n\nI think it's more likely that Father Inire's lifespan was artificially \nextended for his mission than that he used time travel to \"skip over the \nboring parts\" as Jeff Wilson suggested.\n\nI also think the original of the House Absolute was a camouflaged \nbunker/palace built by Typhon, which would be a nice hideout in case of \nattacks from space. It was enhanced by Father Inire. There are certainly \nspace-warping tunnels to Nessus, since Rudesind expected to be able to \nwalk to paintings he described while in Nessus when he was in the House \nAbsolute.\n\nCamoena is the Roman goddess of singing. I don't believe the word is \never used in the books, but it sounds like the pattern that Hierodules \nare named for Roman gods or goddesses. I think the identification of the \ncruel Prisca with the Cumaean is absurd, and I have doubts about the \nCeryx connection, too." } ] }, { "message_id": "<48730189.7050108@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T05:56:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire and House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<4872FBC6.1040306@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nI also think the original of the House Absolute was a camouflaged \nbunker/palace built by Typhon, which would be a nice hideout in case of \nattacks from space. It was enhanced by Father Inire. There are certainly \nspace-warping tunnels to Nessus, since Rudesind expected to be able to \nwalk to paintings he described while in Nessus when he was in the House \nAbsolute." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He also says there are so many pictures that he's only cleaned them \nthree times each or so during his career; fifteen years worth of \npaintings can line miles of underground hallways. And it shouldn't be a \ntremendous distance from the ruler's palace to his spaceport to start with." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<002d01c8e179$94bbfee0$0ad14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-09T04:09:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire and House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<48730189.7050108@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Back to my topic:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I know of nothing in the Urth Cycle to suggest that Inire was involved with\nTyphon, and the above quote suggests that Inire was summoned to Urth. How\nwas Inire \"called by\" Ymar? Called from where? How would Ymar even know of\nhim?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The memories that Sev inherited of Ymar were too remote to provide\ninformation, but those of the Old Autarch were fresh. Though in URTH Sev\nmakes occasional references to his predecessor's experiences in Yesod, I\nrecall no references to that autarch ever being on the Ship. Oversight or\nsignificant? However it came about, we know that Ymar and the Old Autarch\nwent to Yesod and failed.\n\nSev's second encounter with the Old Autarch was in that funny room in the\nHouse Absolute. Seeing Sev dressed as he was and with his sword, the autarch\njumped to the conclusion that Sev was there to kill him and take his place\nas autarch, as he had been foretold by Paeon on the night of their first\nmeeting at the House Azure. When Sev said, \"Then you can show me the way to\nthe garden.\", the Old Autarch interpreted it as \"the Garden\". Whatever he\nmay have intended by the capitalization, he showed Sev the big, old book and\ndared him to go.\n\nIn the book's mirrored pages Sev saw Tzadkiel in the void of space -- and\nTzadkiel saw him. It was a \"live\" picture, so to speak. I'm suggesting that\nboth Ymar and the Old Autarch went to Yesod by way of mirrors, possibly the\nmirrors in that book. They were never on the Ship, and every indication is\nthat they were returned from Yesod to their own respective eras shortly\nafter failing their examinations, unlike Sev. The Hierogrammates wanted Sev\nto go on the Ship, so that they could use it to take Sev back in time to\nTyphon's era for the purpose of establishing the Conciliator religion.\n\nThe old book had an obvious connection to Tzadkiel, therefore to Yesod, and\nit was in the autarch's possession. This may be the means Ymar used to call\nInire to his service. I'll leave it to the reader's imagination to speculate\non what this suggestion says about Inire, and where his loyalties lie.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-09T13:12:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Inire and House Absolute", "in_reply_to": "<002d01c8e179$94bbfee0$0ad14a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In regard to my suggestion that Inire and the Cumaean have developed some bad\nhabits in their time on Urth, Roy says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is absolutely no way I can fit that idea into what I thought was your\nbasic theory about Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Despite the title of the previous thread I wouldn't want it to be MY theory. I've\nmade it clear from the beginning I'm here because I know I am not smart\nenough to figure out this story by myself. I welcome any ideas that improve\nmy understanding or that of others.\n\nMy current idea is that Inire and the Cumaean are hiero-dudes, but while in human\n form, have been distracted from their purpose by human weaknesses (how many Star\nTrek episodes and other SF stories have explored THAT theme?). If others see\nNew Sun purpose in every one of their actions, I can accept that but I can't see it\nmyself at this time.\n\nRoy, I agree with your previous post that Ymar and Appian probably used the book\nto make their trip to Yesod. Moreover there are hints that Severian received his \nNew Sun potential from Zak bending over him while he was dead on the ship (or\nperhaps in the process of creating a new eidolon body). It would seem Inire was\noriginally tasked with finding and assisting Urth's savior in the quest for Conciliation.\n\nBut that is quite a time gap between Ymar and Appian making the attempt. What was\nInire doing in that time? Apparently maintaining and elaborating a byzantine society \nin which millions of people are held in stasis. The war is a joke, Severian is told he \ncould switch armies if he liked...or have both. I don't see how Inire's mechinations directly\nhelped a New Sun appear with these activities.\n\nI think the Cumaean, as leader of the witches who \"raise the dead\" is behind the alzabo \nbrain eating/memorysharing stuff and perhaps kaibits and cloning. In an interview Wolfe \nmade it clear he considers Vodalus' corpse eating to be a repugnant activity (\"satanic \neucharist\" his description?). Should we think Wolfe considers the same activity okay\nfor Severian, just because his meal is alive and has given consent?\n\nI've always been struck by a 5HoC dream by Number Five in which his father is a captain\nwho has tied his ship to the dock and won't untie it until he can figure out why his ship isn't\nmoving. This as Wolfe's commentary on attempting to use cloning to make progress.\n\nI see a similar underlying philosophy in BotNS. Wolfe is against a \"do-nothing\" society \nwhich hopes to create a better world by sitting around in stasis and waiting for it to happen.\nSeverian was born into this static society, created largely by Inire, raised in a guild of compliant\nTorturers (\"Torturers obey\") and shared twice in the satanic eucharist, gaining unearned \nknowledge. Despite these setbacks he was able to twice disobey in his role as torturer and \nmake other independent moral decisions. In UotNS, Severian mentions at one point that \nhis actions with Thecla probably first qualified him for New Sun. He is willing to take action, even\nkilling what he loves, to make things right.\n\nIt could be argued that Inire and the Cumaean are necessary for Severian to be created but\nthat could also be argued for Vodalus, Agia and Hethor, the Ascians and the Jungle Magicians.\nWhile the Increate (Wolfe) put those characters in place we wouldn't say they are consciously\nworking for the New Sun. Good and Evil are the hammer and anvil by which God shapes us, yes?\n\n-bsharp\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe i’m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world?\nhttp://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld" } ] } ] }