{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5095", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5095, "subject": "Wolfe and Noah", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2008-07-08T21:05:40+00:00", "last": "2008-07-08T22:09:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<43960c850807081405m67c7c12ai3e050c272abe4eff@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Russell Wodell", "address": "wrustle at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T21:05:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe and Noah", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "May I ask a simple? possibly very naive — question about the climax of \"The\nUrth of the New Sun\"?\n\nIf I understand correctly, the New Sun melts Urth's encroaching\nglaciation, flooding at least Nessus and part of the Commonwealth, if not\nmost of the planet, washing away Urth and creating Ushas.\n\nI have always assumed this was a strategic victory for Abaia and his\nattendant undines, whose underwater domain is thus greatly enlarged, and a\ndefeat for Erebus (who as I recall lived under one of Urth's poles, and\npresumably wanted an ice age). It is of course difficult to assign motives\nto off-stage monsters, but wasn't it for just this reason that the undine\nsaves Severian from drowning as an apprentice? That it gives Urth over to\nAbaia and his minions, plus those like Baldanders who seek immortality\nthrough extended youth, which means unlimited physical growth, which\nnecessitates living in the oceans (though we are also told they can swim\namong the stars).\n\nNow Wolfe is anything but a simplistic Catholic -- indeed, I have the\nimpression, through hints in his interviews, that some of his philosophical\nideas might seem heretical. But isn't it basic Christian doctrine, Catholic\nor Protestant alike, that God promised Noah He would never again destroy\nhumanity through a great flood, and set the rainbow in this heavens as a\npledge of this promise?\n\nTry as I may, I can't see how Sev and his fellow survivors from the House\nAbsolute could possibly be identified with Noah and his family." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Russell Wodell\n\n\"Quanti canicula ille in fenestra\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9D8F7C05-995F-4257-8C84-9B8092366DEF@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T21:10:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe and Noah", "in_reply_to": "<43960c850807081405m67c7c12ai3e050c272abe4eff@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I suppose that God was not responsible for Sev and the New Sun, \nso God hasn't broken any of his promises directly (assuming, of \ncourse, you're not an occasionalist, but who is?).\n\nAnother way of looking at it is that Abaia, Erebus and Scylla might \nactually be disadvantaged by the more luminous sun. They might be able \nto inhabit only colder worlds, or the increase in radiation might \ndestroy them. After all, the books are peppered with references to \nthe \"New Sun\" being able to defeat Erebus and Abaia, and Sev himself \nhas argued (with Jonas) that humans could not defeat creatures so \ngreat as Abaia. Perhaps this usage of \"New Sun\" refers to the actual \nnew star and not to Sev.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 8, 2008, at 4:05 PM, Russell Wodell wrote:\nMay I ask a simple? possibly very naive — question about the climax \nof \"The Urth of the New Sun\"?\n\nIf I understand correctly, the New Sun melts Urth's encroaching \nglaciation, flooding at least Nessus and part of the Commonwealth, \nif not most of the planet, washing away Urth and creating Ushas.\n\nI have always assumed this was a strategic victory for Abaia and his \nattendant undines, whose underwater domain is thus greatly enlarged, \nand a defeat for Erebus (who as I recall lived under one of Urth's \npoles, and presumably wanted an ice age). It is of course difficult \nto assign motives to off-stage monsters, but wasn't it for just this \nreason that the undine saves Severian from drowning as an \napprentice? That it gives Urth over to Abaia and his minions, plus \nthose like Baldanders who seek immortality through extended youth, \nwhich means unlimited physical growth, which necessitates living in \nthe oceans (though we are also told they can swim among the stars).\n\nNow Wolfe is anything but a simplistic Catholic -- indeed, I have \nthe impression, through hints in his interviews, that some of his \nphilosophical ideas might seem heretical. But isn't it basic \nChristian doctrine, Catholic or Protestant alike, that God promised \nNoah He would never again destroy humanity through a great flood, \nand set the rainbow in this heavens as a pledge of this promise?\n\nTry as I may, I can't see how Sev and his fellow survivors from the \nHouse Absolute could possibly be identified with Noah and his family.\n\n\n-- \nRussell Wodell\n\n\"Quanti canicula ille in fenestra\"\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1410.165.95.146.29.1215552948.squirrel@webmail.io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T21:35:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe and Noah", "in_reply_to": "<43960c850807081405m67c7c12ai3e050c272abe4eff@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "May I ask a simple? possibly very naive — question about the climax of\n\"The\nUrth of the New Sun\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The short answers/spoilers are:\n\n - the world doesn't stay flooded; when the White Fountain passes on into\nthe sun, the tides return to normal.\n\n - the destruction is widely spread around the world, and Erebus and\nAbaia, being big as mountains, are bigger targets for more damage, and as\nlikely to be washed away as any other geographic feature.\n\n - as the only other time-traveler of Commonwealth extraction and the only\nfemale, Juturna like saves Severian because she's his missing sister.\n\n - very large creatures \"swim among the stars\" in that they can florish in\nmicrogravity as on The Ship, and that The Brook Madregot allows beings to\nswim through time and space like the Corridors of Time allows beings to\nwalk or run through time and space.\n\n - the Urth of the Book is in a previous Big Bang/Grand Gnab cycle of the\nuniverse, before the promise was made.\n\n - the survivors of Urth are more of an Edenic group than a Noahide one.\n\nJeff" } ] }, { "message_id": "<59806.55961.qm@web30801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "J Jankiewicz", "address": "jjankie at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-07-08T22:09:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe and Noah", "in_reply_to": "<1410.165.95.146.29.1215552948.squirrel@webmail.io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "wow - \"the survivors of Urth are more of an Edenic group than a Noahide one\"\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 4:35:48 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Wolfe and Noah\nMay I ask a simple? possibly very naive — question about the climax of\n\"The?Urth of the New Sun\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The short answers/spoilers are:\n\n- the world doesn't stay flooded; when the White Fountain passes on into\nthe sun, the tides return to normal.\n\n- the destruction is widely spread around the world, and Erebus and\nAbaia, being big as mountains, are bigger targets for more damage, and as\nlikely to be washed away as any other geographic feature.\n\n- as the only other time-traveler of Commonwealth extraction and the only\nfemale, Juturna like saves Severian because she's his missing sister.\n\n- very large creatures \"swim among the stars\" in that they can florish in\nmicrogravity as on The Ship, and that The Brook Madregot allows beings to\nswim through time and space like the Corridors of Time allows beings to\nwalk or run through time and space.\n\n- the Urth of the Book is in a previous Big Bang/Grand Gnab cycle of the\nuniverse, before the promise was made.\n\n- the survivors of Urth are more of an Edenic group than a Noahide one.\n\nJeff" } ] } ] }