Subject: (urth) Wolfe and Noah

From: Russell Wodell <wrustle at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 21:05:40 +0000

May I ask a simple? possibly very naive — question about the climax of "The
Urth of the New Sun"?

If I understand correctly, the New Sun melts Urth's encroaching
glaciation, flooding at least Nessus and part of the Commonwealth, if not
most of the planet, washing away Urth and creating Ushas.

I have always assumed this was a strategic victory for Abaia and his
attendant undines, whose underwater domain is thus greatly enlarged, and a
defeat for Erebus (who as I recall lived under one of Urth's poles, and
presumably wanted an ice age). It is of course difficult to assign motives
to off-stage monsters, but wasn't it for just this reason that the undine
saves Severian from drowning as an apprentice? That it gives Urth over to
Abaia and his minions, plus those like Baldanders who seek immortality
through extended youth, which means unlimited physical growth, which
necessitates living in the oceans (though we are also told they can swim
among the stars).

Now Wolfe is anything but a simplistic Catholic -- indeed, I have the
impression, through hints in his interviews, that some of his philosophical
ideas might seem heretical. But isn't it basic Christian doctrine, Catholic
or Protestant alike, that God promised Noah He would never again destroy
humanity through a great flood, and set the rainbow in this heavens as a
pledge of this promise?

Try as I may, I can't see how Sev and his fellow survivors from the House
Absolute could possibly be identified with Noah and his family.

-- 
Russell Wodell

"Quanti canicula ille in fenestra"
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From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 21:10:28 +0000

Well, I suppose that God was not responsible for Sev and the New Sun,  
so God hasn't broken any of his promises directly (assuming, of  
course, you're not an occasionalist, but who is?).

Another way of looking at it is that Abaia, Erebus and Scylla might  
actually be disadvantaged by the more luminous sun. They might be able  
to inhabit only colder worlds, or the increase in radiation might  
destroy them.  After all, the books are peppered with references to  
the "New Sun" being able to defeat Erebus and Abaia, and Sev himself  
has argued (with Jonas) that humans could not defeat creatures so  
great as Abaia.  Perhaps this usage of "New Sun" refers to the actual  
new star and not to Sev.

Lane

On Jul 8, 2008, at 4:05 PM, Russell Wodell wrote:

> May I ask a simple? possibly very naive — question about the climax  
> of "The Urth of the New Sun"?
>
> glaciation, flooding at least Nessus and part of the Commonwealth,  
> if not most of the planet, washing away Urth and creating Ushas.
>
> attendant undines, whose underwater domain is thus greatly enlarged,  
> and a defeat for Erebus (who as I recall lived under one of Urth's  
> poles, and presumably wanted an ice age). It is of course difficult  
> to assign motives to off-stage monsters, but wasn't it for just this  
> reason that the undine saves Severian from drowning as an  
> apprentice? That it gives Urth over to Abaia and his minions, plus  
> those like Baldanders who seek immortality through extended youth,  
> which means unlimited physical growth, which necessitates living in  
> the oceans (though we are also told they can swim among the stars).
>
> Now Wolfe is anything but a simplistic Catholic -- indeed, I have  
> the impression, through hints in his interviews, that some of his  
> philosophical ideas might seem heretical. But isn't it basic  
> Christian doctrine, Catholic or Protestant alike, that God promised  
> Noah He would never again destroy humanity through a great flood,  
> and set the rainbow in this heavens as a pledge of this promise?
>
> Try as I may, I can't see how Sev and his fellow survivors from the  
> House Absolute could possibly be identified with Noah and his family.
>
>
> -- 
> Russell Wodell
>
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 21:35:48 +0000

> May I ask a simple? possibly very naive — question about the climax of

The short answers/spoilers are:

 - the world doesn't stay flooded; when the White Fountain passes on into
the sun, the tides return to normal.

 - the destruction is widely spread around the world, and Erebus and
Abaia, being big as mountains, are bigger targets for more damage, and as
likely to be washed away as any other geographic feature.

 - as the only other time-traveler of Commonwealth extraction and the only
female, Juturna like saves Severian because she's his missing sister.

 - very large creatures "swim among the stars" in that they can florish in
microgravity as on The Ship, and that The Brook Madregot allows beings to
swim through time and space like the Corridors of Time allows beings to
walk or run through time and space.

 - the Urth of the Book is in a previous Big Bang/Grand Gnab cycle of the
universe, before the promise was made.

 - the survivors of Urth are more of an Edenic group than a Noahide one.

Jeff

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From: J Jankiewicz <jjankie at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 22:09:27 +0000

wow - "the survivors of Urth are more of an Edenic group than a Noahide one"

----- Original Message ----
From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 4:35:48 PM
Subject: Re: (urth) Wolfe and Noah

> May I ask a simple? possibly very naive — question about the climax of
> "The?Urth of the New Sun"?

Jeff

      
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