{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5101", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5101, "subject": "A Good Society", "messages": 7, "voices": 4, "first": "2008-07-11T15:17:24+00:00", "last": "2008-07-11T19:37:44+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<507061.55682.qm@web83701.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-07-11T15:17:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Good Society", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can any one think of a Wolfe novel or story in which\nhe portrays a good society? \n\nWhen I re-read The Fifth Head of Cerberus, I realized\nthat on the first reading I had missed how brutal and\nnasty the planet of Sainte. Croix is. Urth and the\nWhorl are also terrible places. Stories like The\nDeath of Dr. Island have a cruel or indifferent\nsociety in the background.\n\nWolfe doesn't seem to write about utopias. But does\nhe ever show even a decent world?\n\nJack\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807110915n3c813283o2489c862ab823985@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T16:15:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Good Society", "in_reply_to": "<507061.55682.qm@web83701.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, and the bad society often goes hand in hand with secularism (or\nwrongheaded spirituality). Long Sun is of course the most obvious example\nof this, but I haven't read him describe a spiritual society either, to\ndate. Presumably because life there would be so good it'd be dull writing.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 11:17 AM, John Smith wrote:\nCan any one think of a Wolfe novel or story in which\nhe portrays a good society?\n\nWhen I re-read The Fifth Head of Cerberus, I realized\nthat on the first reading I had missed how brutal and\nnasty the planet of Sainte. Croix is. Urth and the\nWhorl are also terrible places. Stories like The\nDeath of Dr. Island have a cruel or indifferent\nsociety in the background.\n\nWolfe doesn't seem to write about utopias. But does\nhe ever show even a decent world?\n\nJack\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48779714.8070705@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T17:23:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Good Society", "in_reply_to": "<507061.55682.qm@web83701.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Smith wrote:\nCan any one think of a Wolfe novel or story in which\nhe portrays a good society? \n\nWhen I re-read The Fifth Head of Cerberus, I realized\nthat on the first reading I had missed how brutal and\nnasty the planet of Sainte. Croix is. Urth and the\nWhorl are also terrible places. Stories like The\nDeath of Dr. Island have a cruel or indifferent\nsociety in the background.\n\nWolfe doesn't seem to write about utopias. But does\nhe ever show even a decent world?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Goddess' world in _There Are Doors_ is a pretty tranquil liberal \ndemocracy similar to 1950's Britain - She reigns with the lightest of \nhands and suffers Her people to govern themselves as long as Her worship \nand personal property are respected." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<177883BB-A6BD-48E0-BF38-94894A8A9400@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T17:32:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Good Society", "in_reply_to": "<48779714.8070705@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given the strong Gnostic vibe I get from a lot of Wolfe's work (not \nthat I think he's a gnostic, mind you, but I think he mines the \ntheology for plot points), the idea that the material world is flawed \nand evil isn't so strange.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 11, 2008, at 12:23 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nJohn Smith wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Can any one think of a Wolfe novel or story in which\nhe portrays a good society? When I re-read The Fifth Head of \nCerberus, I realized\nthat on the first reading I had missed how brutal and\nnasty the planet of Sainte. Croix is. Urth and the\nWhorl are also terrible places. Stories like The\nDeath of Dr. Island have a cruel or indifferent\nsociety in the background.\nWolfe doesn't seem to write about utopias. But does\nhe ever show even a decent world?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Goddess' world in _There Are Doors_ is a pretty tranquil liberal \ndemocracy similar to 1950's Britain - She reigns with the lightest \nof hands and suffers Her people to govern themselves as long as Her \nworship and personal property are respected.\n\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4877A8C7.6020002@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T18:39:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Good Society", "in_reply_to": "<177883BB-A6BD-48E0-BF38-94894A8A9400@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lane Haygood wrote:\nGiven the strong Gnostic vibe I get from a lot of Wolfe's work (not that \nI think he's a gnostic, mind you, but I think he mines the theology for \nplot points), the idea that the material world is flawed and evil isn't \nso strange." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His interviews affirm this; he says we are lucky to live in a Christian \nsociety cos the rest of the world (like Turkey) is a depraved hellhole \nwhere people kill kittens for fun." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807111221j17045af4j5a8ef5c6f5247495@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T19:21:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Good Society", "in_reply_to": "<4877A8C7.6020002@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hooo boy, really? What interview was this?\nWell, Wolfe is getting old, I suppose I can grant him moral exception (har)\nfor cantankerous outbursts.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 2:39 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nLane Haygood wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Given the strong Gnostic vibe I get from a lot of Wolfe's work (not that I\nthink he's a gnostic, mind you, but I think he mines the theology for plot\npoints), the idea that the material world is flawed and evil isn't so\nstrange." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His interviews affirm this; he says we are lucky to live in a Christian\nsociety cos the rest of the world (like Turkey) is a depraved hellhole where\npeople kill kittens for fun.\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4877B688.3090404@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-11T19:37:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A Good Society", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807111221j17045af4j5a8ef5c6f5247495@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B wrote:\nHooo boy, really? What interview was this? \nWell, Wolfe is getting old, I suppose I can grant him moral exception \n(har) for cantankerous outbursts. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj3.html\n\nI beg your pardon, it is James B. Jordan who actually mentions the part \nabout the kittens, but about 8-10 answers down the page is where Wolfe \ntalks about other cruelties." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }