# A Good Society *The Urth list — 7 messages, 4 voices, 11 Jul 2008* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### John Smith *11 Jul 2008, 15:17* Can any one think of a Wolfe novel or story in which he portrays a good society? When I re-read The Fifth Head of Cerberus, I realized that on the first reading I had missed how brutal and nasty the planet of Sainte. Croix is. Urth and the Whorl are also terrible places. Stories like The Death of Dr. Island have a cruel or indifferent society in the background. Wolfe doesn't seem to write about utopias. But does he ever show even a decent world? Jack Best wishes, Jack --- ### Paul B *11 Jul 2008, 16:15 · in reply to John Smith* Yeah, and the bad society often goes hand in hand with secularism (or wrongheaded spirituality). Long Sun is of course the most obvious example of this, but I haven't read him describe a spiritual society either, to date. Presumably because life there would be so good it'd be dull writing. Paul > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 11:17 AM, John Smith wrote: > Can any one think of a Wolfe novel or story in which > he portrays a good society? > > When I re-read The Fifth Head of Cerberus, I realized > that on the first reading I had missed how brutal and > nasty the planet of Sainte. Croix is. Urth and the > Whorl are also terrible places. Stories like The > Death of Dr. Island have a cruel or indifferent > society in the background. > > Wolfe doesn't seem to write about utopias. But does > he ever show even a decent world? > > Jack > > Best wishes, > > Jack > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jeff Wilson *11 Jul 2008, 17:23 · in reply to John Smith* > John Smith wrote: > Can any one think of a Wolfe novel or story in which > he portrays a good society? > > When I re-read The Fifth Head of Cerberus, I realized > that on the first reading I had missed how brutal and > nasty the planet of Sainte. Croix is. Urth and the > Whorl are also terrible places. Stories like The > Death of Dr. Island have a cruel or indifferent > society in the background. > > Wolfe doesn't seem to write about utopias. But does > he ever show even a decent world? The Goddess' world in _There Are Doors_ is a pretty tranquil liberal democracy similar to 1950's Britain - She reigns with the lightest of hands and suffers Her people to govern themselves as long as Her worship and personal property are respected. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` --- ### Lane Haygood *11 Jul 2008, 17:32 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* Given the strong Gnostic vibe I get from a lot of Wolfe's work (not that I think he's a gnostic, mind you, but I think he mines the theology for plot points), the idea that the material world is flawed and evil isn't so strange. Lane > On Jul 11, 2008, at 12:23 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > John Smith wrote: >> Can any one think of a Wolfe novel or story in which >> he portrays a good society? When I re-read The Fifth Head of >> Cerberus, I realized >> that on the first reading I had missed how brutal and >> nasty the planet of Sainte. Croix is. Urth and the >> Whorl are also terrible places. Stories like The >> Death of Dr. Island have a cruel or indifferent >> society in the background. >> Wolfe doesn't seem to write about utopias. But does >> he ever show even a decent world? > The Goddess' world in _There Are Doors_ is a pretty tranquil liberal > democracy similar to 1950's Britain - She reigns with the lightest > of hands and suffers Her people to govern themselves as long as Her > worship and personal property are respected. > > > -- > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com > < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jeff Wilson *11 Jul 2008, 18:39 · in reply to Lane Haygood* > Lane Haygood wrote: > Given the strong Gnostic vibe I get from a lot of Wolfe's work (not that > I think he's a gnostic, mind you, but I think he mines the theology for > plot points), the idea that the material world is flawed and evil isn't > so strange. His interviews affirm this; he says we are lucky to live in a Christian society cos the rest of the world (like Turkey) is a depraved hellhole where people kill kittens for fun. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` --- ### Paul B *11 Jul 2008, 19:21 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* Hooo boy, really? What interview was this? Well, Wolfe is getting old, I suppose I can grant him moral exception (har) for cantankerous outbursts. Paul > On Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 2:39 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > Lane Haygood wrote: >> Given the strong Gnostic vibe I get from a lot of Wolfe's work (not that I >> think he's a gnostic, mind you, but I think he mines the theology for plot >> points), the idea that the material world is flawed and evil isn't so >> strange. > His interviews affirm this; he says we are lucky to live in a Christian > society cos the rest of the world (like Turkey) is a depraved hellhole where > people kill kittens for fun. > > > -- > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com > < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jeff Wilson *11 Jul 2008, 19:37 · in reply to Paul B* > Paul B wrote: > Hooo boy, really? What interview was this? > Well, Wolfe is getting old, I suppose I can grant him moral exception > (har) for cantankerous outbursts. http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj3.html I beg your pardon, it is James B. Jordan who actually mentions the part about the kittens, but about 8-10 answers down the page is where Wolfe talks about other cruelties. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` ---