{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5104", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5104, "subject": "What's so Green about Ushas?", "messages": 9, "voices": 4, "first": "2008-07-15T18:50:59+00:00", "last": "2008-07-18T22:08:03+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<9a33123d0807151150n42fbe8f0re332e48efe641292@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2008-07-15T18:50:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's so Green about Ushas?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C Lackey wrote:\n(FWIW, I have a hard time fitting the futuristic Green Man into the\nprospective Hieros line. He seems to be rather a pacific fellow whose kind\nwill not even kill to eat. It's hard to imagine his kind will produce the\ncruel men who fashion Hierogrammates in Briah. Maybe he signals the end of\nthe senseless cycles.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the Green Man future is meant to be the one that\nproduces the Hierogrammates, because I don't think it's the one to\nwhich Severian returns as a god at the end of UotNS, although that\nsometimes seems to be the assumption.\n\nWhen Severian escapes from Apu-Punchau's tomb in the final chapter of\nUotNS and the corridors of time stretch around him, he says:\n\"Bright-winged, the small Tzadkiel fluttered beside one. The green man\nraced beside another. I chose one that ran as lonely as I...\" That's\nthe one he follows back to Ushas.\n\nThat seems to suggest that the Green Man future is one that gets the\nNew Sun but doesn't get Severian the demi-god, and humanity works out\nits own arrangement with the universe." } ] }, { "message_id": "<000a01c8e6bb$9aeaa180$a3cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-15T20:44:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Green About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0807151150n42fbe8f0re332e48efe641292@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis quoted and wrote:\n(FWIW, I have a hard time fitting the futuristic Green Man into the\nprospective Hieros line. He seems to be rather a pacific fellow whose kind\nwill not even kill to eat. It's hard to imagine his kind will produce the\ncruel men who fashion Hierogrammates in Briah. Maybe he signals the end of\nthe senseless cycles.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think the Green Man future is meant to be the one that\nproduces the Hierogrammates, because I don't think it's the one to\nwhich Severian returns as a god at the end of UotNS, although that\nsometimes seems to be the assumption." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When Severian escapes from Apu-Punchau's tomb in the final chapter of" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "UotNS and the corridors of time stretch around him, he says:\n\"Bright-winged, the small Tzadkiel fluttered beside one. The green man\nraced beside another. I chose one that ran as lonely as I...\" That's\nthe one he follows back to Ushas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That seems to suggest that the Green Man future is one that gets the\nNew Sun but doesn't get Severian the demi-god, and humanity works out\nits own arrangement with the universe.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-----------------------------------------------------------\n\nI don't think the Corridors necessarily led to alternate realities, just\ndifferent points in time. Ash and his house disappeared because the ice\nfuture was no longer probable. When Sev made to force him out of the house,\nhe said, \"But your world is your world. I can exist there only if the\nprobability of my existence is high.\" (CITADEL, XVII) And he went poof when\nhe left the protection of the Last House. The Green Man had been held\nprisoner in Saltus, so he could exist outside the Corridors in Sev's world\nbecause the probability of his future existence was high.\n\nWhen Agia and the Green Man rescued Severian in the jungle, the Green Man\nsaid \"We are your children . . .\" (CITADEL, XXX) That suggests that his kind\nwere descended from the new peoples that Sev found on Ushas when he returned\nfrom the stone town. That is corroborated by what the Green Man said to Sev\nin Saltus, \"I am a free man, come from your own future to explore your age.\"\n(CLAW, III)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0807160215w22729eb9ga67f962f6e1ea1b8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T09:15:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's so Green about Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<000a01c8e6bb$9aeaa180$a3cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:\nI don't think the Corridors necessarily led to alternate realities, just\ndifferent points in time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think if that was true, there would only have been one corridor, as\nthere was when Tzadkiel first showed Severian the Brook Madregot.\nSeverian is now talking about a multitude:\n\n\"All about me stretched the Corridors of Time, waving meadows roofed\nwith the lowering sky of Time and whisperous with the brooks that\nripple from the most supernal universe of all to the least.\" UotNS, LI\n\nBrooks, not brook, you notice. Severian goes on to say \"Behind me\nalong a line that seldom exists, Apu-Punchau, the Head of Day, stepped\nfrom his house and squatted to eat the boiled maize and roast meat his\npeople had left for him.\" If the corridors only lead to different\npoints in the same time-stream, I don't see how Severian can look back\nand see a reality that 'seldom exists'.\n\nThe quotes you give where the Green Man talks about his future still\nmake sense if he comes from one of a multitude of futures. For what\nit's worth, I think that at the time those lines were written, long\nbefore UotNS, Wolfe may well have intended them to be read in the\nstricter sense you suggest. But I also think that by the time UotNS\ncame along Wolfe had changed his mind about a few things." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T12:12:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's So Green About Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0807160215w22729eb9ga67f962f6e1ea1b8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like Tony Ellis' explanation of the Green Man, being the equivalent of Master Ash- \nan alternate future to Ushas. It explains why he doesn't seem to fit with the UotNS \nUshas and Hiero-dudes. Tony supports the position well with the text. I'll add that \nin their initial meeting, Severian and the Green Man have a bantering discussion but \nat one point they are hit by a sudden disgust for each other and debate over which \none of them is really human.\n\nI can imagine a Gene Wolfe in his 40's writing this book, having a crisis of conscience.\nHe sees the passive, do-nothing, wait-for-a-savior nature of much of humanity and \nrecognizes there is no real future in that. Having passed through the hippie 60's and\ngranola 70's I can imagine him questioning his own faith and spirituality. I can \nstereotype vegetarian, secular humanists as, like the Green Man, very nice, honorable,\ncaring people, and I can imagine Wolfe wondering if that was the way to go.\n\nReligion seems to have won the battle though. Wolfe could see an even more noble \nfuture for humanity than becoming a giant hippie commune. I've always imagined \nthat the Hierogrammates evolved into or created a superior cognate race that passed\non to that universe which is higher than Yesod. \n\nThe process would continue until The Increate is formed at the end, which is also the \nbeginning (says God: \"I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last\"- Revelation 1: 8). \nLeads to the interesting idea that while Man was made in God's image, God was made \nin Man's image also. (is THAT what the Sistine Chapel ceiling is all about? ;-))\n\n-bsharp" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1714CAE3-0BE8-4E92-9366-790D77B7E361@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-16T16:37:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's so Green about Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0807160215w22729eb9ga67f962f6e1ea1b8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 16, 2008, at 4:15 AM, Tony Ellis wrote:\nBrooks, not brook, you notice. Severian goes on to say \"Behind me\nalong a line that seldom exists, Apu-Punchau, the Head of Day, stepped\nfrom his house and squatted to eat the boiled maize and roast meat his\npeople had left for him.\" If the corridors only lead to different\npoints in the same time-stream, I don't see how Severian can look back\nand see a reality that 'seldom exists'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note that something that \"seldom exists\" within the \"Corridors of \nTime\" has just about *got* to be a loving nod to Borges' \"A New \nRefutation of Time.\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005201c8e7b9$f17c99a0$f9cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-17T03:05:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's so Green about Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<1714CAE3-0BE8-4E92-9366-790D77B7E361@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tony Ellis quoted and wrote:\nI don't think the Corridors necessarily led to alternate realities, just\ndifferent points in time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think if that was true, there would only have been one corridor, as\nthere was when Tzadkiel first showed Severian the Brook Madregot.\nSeverian is now talking about a multitude:\n\n\"All about me stretched the Corridors of Time, waving meadows roofed\nwith the lowering sky of Time and whisperous with the brooks that\nripple from the most supernal universe of all to the least.\" UotNS, LI\n\nBrooks, not brook, you notice." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The multiple brooks refers to the brooks that run between the tiered\nuniverses. Small Tzadkiel could show him only the one brook, Madregot,\nbecause that was where she had been exiled by her larger self.\n\n-----------------------------------------\n\"This is the Brook Madregot, and it runs from Yesod to Briah.\"\n \"Between the universes?\" I asked. \"How can that be?\"\n \"How could it not be? Energy gropes for some lower\nstate, always; which is merely to say that the Increate tosses\nall the universes between his hands.\"\n \"But it's a stream,\" I protested. \"Like the streams of\nUrth.\"\n Tzadkiel nodded. \"Those too are of energy seeking a\nlower state, and what is perceived is dictated by the\ninstrument. If you had other eyes, or another mind, you\nwould see all things otherwise.\" (URTH, XL, 285)\n----------------------------------------------\n\nSince the brooks run between universes, it would not be very meaningful for\nthe Corridors of Time to be merely congruent with them. Urth and Ushas were\nin Briah. I see no evidence that the Green Man traveled to Urth's past from\noutside Briah. True, Sev moving along the Madregot (or at least at an angle\nto it on the bank beside it), somehow ended up on Urth some forty years\nafter he left for Yesod, but I find that inexplicable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian goes on to say \"Behind me\nalong a line that seldom exists, Apu-Punchau, the Head of Day, stepped\nfrom his house and squatted to eat the boiled maize and roast meat his\npeople had left for him.\" If the corridors only lead to different\npoints in the same time-stream, I don't see how Severian can look back\nand see a reality that 'seldom exists'.\n\nThe quotes you give where the Green Man talks about his future still\nmake sense if he comes from one of a multitude of futures." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know what Severian meant by that, but if there are a multitude of\nfutures, then trying to understand the Urth Cycle becomes a decent into\nchaos. If a man from a future that was not Sev's can interact with Sev in a\npractical way that Ash could not, then that opens up a can of worms better\nleft alone. Any of the story's many mysteries can be explained away by\nappeals to influences from undemonstrated alternate futures.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0807171416j642c2b24kb472a1bfb7f97476@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2008-07-17T21:16:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's so Green about Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<005201c8e7b9$f17c99a0$f9cd4a0c@rclackey.stic.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C Lackey wrote:\nThe multiple brooks refers to the brooks that run between the tiered\nuniverses. Small Tzadkiel could show him only the one brook, Madregot,\nbecause that was where she had been exiled by her larger self." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yet at least three of these brooks lead to Briah. The Green Man races\nbeside one, and you say he travels only within Briah. Small Tzadkiel\nflutters beside a second, which is Madregot, and Severian chooses a\nthird. The fact that Wolfe bothers to show us Severian choosing *not*\nto take the Green Man's brook seems significant to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since the brooks run between universes, it would not be very meaningful for\nthe Corridors of Time to be merely congruent with them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think they may be more synonymous than you realise. First of all,\nnote that \"to enter the corridors of time is to leave the universe.\"\nCotA, XXXIV.\n\nAnd secondly, congruent or not, the brooks run between universes, but\nthey also run through time:\n\n\"Madregot flows from the glory of Yesod\" - she pointed upstream - \"to\nthe destruction of Briah, down that way.\" She pointed again. \"Follow\nthe water, and you'll be at a time nearer the coming of your star.\"\nUotNS, XL" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005b01c8e88d$22ef4cc0$04d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-18T04:16:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's so Green about Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<9a33123d0807171416j642c2b24kb472a1bfb7f97476@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tony Ellis quoted and wrote:\nSince the brooks run between universes, it would not be very meaningful\nfor\nthe Corridors of Time to be merely congruent with them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think they may be more synonymous than you realise. First of all,\nnote that \"to enter the corridors of time is to leave the universe.\"\nCotA, XXXIV." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We just aren't going to agree on this. The books show only two possible\nfutures, Ragnarok and Ushas, with one excluding the other. Whether the\nCorridors and brooks are the same or not, the Green Man came from the Ushas\nfuture, which is necessarily in the universe of Briah. There is no evidence\nthat there were multiple futures or realities after the arrival of the white\nhole, which was the original point of debate.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9a33123d0807181508k2a4044faya792acef46909ff5@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2008-07-18T22:08:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) What's so Green about Ushas?", "in_reply_to": "<005b01c8e88d$22ef4cc0$04d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C Lackey wrote:\nThere is no evidence that there were multiple futures or realities after\nthe arrival of the white hole, which was the original point of debate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The multiplicity of brooks that lead to Briah is the evidence. But as\nyou say, we just aren't going to agree on this. :-)" } ] } ] }