{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5112", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5112, "subject": "Latin of the New Sun", "messages": 6, "voices": 6, "first": "2008-07-21T16:25:41+00:00", "last": "2008-07-22T04:39:10+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<133476.14811.qm@web83711.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-07-21T16:25:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latin of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does anybody understand what Wolfe is up to when he\nresorts to Latin in The New Sun books? He says,\n\"Latin is once or twice employed to indicate that\ninscriptions and the like are in a language Severian\nappears to consider obsolete.\" (Shadow, appendix). \nBut that doesn't seem to be the whole story.\n\nWolfe's translations from his Latin seem to be a\nlittle off. (I admit that my high school Latin is\nvery rusty.)\n\nValeria says to Severian, \"Do you like the dead\nlanguages? They have mottoes. ' Lux dei vitae viam\nmonstrat,' that's 'The beam of the New Sun lights the\nway of life.' 'Felicibus brevis, miseris hora\nlonga.' 'Men wait long for happiness.' 'Aspice ut\naspiciar.'\" (Shadow, IV)\n\n\"Lux dei\" is literally \"the light of God.\" Maybe\nValeria's \"beam of the New Sun\" is just supposed to\nstrengthen the connection between the New Sun and\nGod. But the second translation is strange. It\nshould be something like \"Happiness is brief, misery\nis long\", probably based on the Latin tag \"Ars longa,\nvita brevis\" (Art is long, life is short).\nHer last, untranslated phrase means something like\n\"Look in order to see.\"\n\nWhen Severian receives his sword, he says he had\nlearned enough of ancient languages to know that\n\"Terminus Est\" means \"This is the Line of Division.\" \n (Shadow, XIV) A simpler translation would be \"This\nis the end.\"\n\nIs Wolfe making little jokes (showing that Valeria and\nSeverian don't understand the dead languages as well\nas they think) or is there something deeper going on?\n\nJack\n\nBest wishes,\n\nJack" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T16:29:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latin of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<133476.14811.qm@web83711.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 21, 2008, at 11:25 AM, John Smith wrote:\nIs Wolfe making little jokes (showing that Valeria and\nSeverian don't understand the dead languages as well\nas they think) or is there something deeper going on?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I could never decide whether it was meant to remind us that this was \nnot really Latin and that translations (including, of course, the one \nfrom Severian's tongue into English!) are approximations, or whether \nhe's making little jokes. I incline towards the first.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<381eca020807211152y5b23bbd0nda72c1479711f0ca@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Martinus Scriblerus", "address": "martinus.scriblerus at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T18:52:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latin of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<133476.14811.qm@web83711.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 5:25 PM, John Smith wrote:\n\nWhen Severian receives his sword, he says he had\nlearned enough of ancient languages to know that\n\"Terminus Est\" means \"This is the Line of Division.\"\n (Shadow, XIV) A simpler translation would be \"This\nis the end.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there are (the) Doors." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Martinus Scriblerus scripsit ex 50? 21' N, 4?41' W" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-21T20:38:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latin of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<381eca020807211152y5b23bbd0nda72c1479711f0ca@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Consider Typhon's translation that it means \"this is the place of \nparting.\" I think that we're looking at is a bit of the indeterminacy \nof translation. First, assuming these really are in Latin (and not, \nas GW seems to imply in the appendices, merely \"a dead language\" that \nhe is rendering in to Latin so that it appears to be \"a dead language\" \nto us), I think that there are two nominal translations going on: the \nin-story translation of Latin to Commonwealth, and the meta-fictional \ntranslation from Commonwealth to English. As languages change, \nconceptual schema change as well. One concept in a certain language \ndoes not necessarily connote the same in a different language, nor \ndoes it necessarily denote the same as well. Our anglicization of \n\"terminus est,\" for example, is to mean \"this is the end.\" But \nrealize that if we were to travel back in time to speak with a Roman, \nconversing entirely in Latin, we would not be able to determine if \n\"this is the end\" and \"terminus est\" are really conceptually \nidentical, because language is, to a certain degree, opaque, and our \nunderstanding of it entirely external and performative.\n\nWhat we're likely dealing with here is the original language A which \nsays, as we understand it, \"terminus est.\" But at two different times \nduring the history of the world, as that was translated in to \nTyphonese (language B) and Commonwealth (language C) we find that \nconcepts have mutated, and the concept of \"end\" (stop, finish point) \nhas become \"where things were parted\" or \"where things were divided\" \nthrough translations from A to B and A to C (or even B to C!).\n\nNow, is Wolfe savvy enough to represent the indeterminacy of \ntranslation while at the same time making little clues and jokes, such \nas the association of divinity with the new sun, or telling us to \n\"look (them up) and see (what I'm trying to tell you)?\"\n\nYes.\n\nBest,\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 21, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Martinus Scriblerus wrote:\nOn Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 5:25 PM, John Smith \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When Severian receives his sword, he says he had\nlearned enough of ancient languages to know that\n\"Terminus Est\" means \"This is the Line of Division.\"\n(Shadow, XIV) A simpler translation would be \"This\nis the end.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, there are (the) Doors.\n\n-- \nMartinus Scriblerus scripsit ex 50? 21' N, 4?41' W\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-07-21T22:47:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latin of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<133476.14811.qm@web83711.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 21 Jul 2008, John Smith wrote:\n\nWhen Severian receives his sword, he says he had\nlearned enough of ancient languages to know that\n\"Terminus Est\" means \"This is the Line of Division.\"\n(Shadow, XIV) A simpler translation would be \"This\nis the end.\"\n\nIs Wolfe making little jokes (showing that Valeria and\nSeverian don't understand the dead languages as well\nas they think) or is there something deeper going on?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I think they are word games, that often have a depth to them. Wolfe \ndelights in giving false etymologies, eg in _Peace_ for \"brand new\" and so \nforth. My hypothesis has been that he uses the same Shorter Oxford \nDictionary as I do, so for example \"apheta [L f. Gk. aphetes starter, \nsender off.] Astrol. = Hyleg. Hyleg...Astrol. The giver of life in a \nnativity\" is funny, but the fuller definition of a hyleg by astrologers \nisn't.\n\nSo in the case of \"terminus\" \"2a Rom. Antiq. The god presiding over \nboundaries or landmarkers ... 3. A boundary, a limit rare L17...4b the \npoint at which something comes to an end\".\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4885646E.2080402@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-07-22T04:39:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latin of the New Sun", "in_reply_to": "<133476.14811.qm@web83711.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Smith wrote:\nValeria says to Severian, \"Do you like the dead\nlanguages? They have mottoes. ' Lux dei vitae viam\nmonstrat,' that's 'The beam of the New Sun lights the\nway of life.' 'Felicibus brevis, miseris hora\nlonga.' 'Men wait long for happiness.' 'Aspice ut\naspiciar.'\" (Shadow, IV)\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All the Latin phrases Valeria gives are direct quotations of mottoes \nfound on famous sundials. See my recent post on \"Valeria\" for details.\n\nThe phrase \"terminus est\" can be found in the Latin Vulgate for Numbers \n21:13. \"... terminus est Moab...\"" } ] } ] }