Subject: (urth) Latin of the New Sun

From: John Smith <jsmith2627 at att.net>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:25:41 +0000

Does anybody understand what Wolfe is up to when he
resorts to Latin in The New Sun books?   He says,
"Latin is once or twice employed to indicate that
inscriptions and the like are in a language Severian
appears to consider obsolete."  (Shadow, appendix).  
But that doesn't seem to be the whole story.

Wolfe's translations from his Latin seem to be a
little off.  (I admit that my high school Latin is
very rusty.)

Valeria says to Severian, "Do you like the dead
languages?  They have mottoes.  ' Lux dei vitae viam
monstrat,' that's  'The beam of the New Sun lights the
way of life.'   'Felicibus brevis, miseris hora
longa.'  'Men wait long for happiness.'   'Aspice ut
aspiciar.'"  (Shadow, IV)

"Lux dei" is literally  "the light of God."  Maybe
Valeria's "beam of the New Sun"  is just supposed to
strengthen the connection between  the New Sun and
God.  But the second translation is strange.  It
should be something like  "Happiness is brief, misery
is long",  probably based on the Latin tag "Ars longa,
vita brevis" (Art is long, life is short).
Her last, untranslated phrase means something like
"Look in order to see."

When Severian receives his sword, he says he had
learned enough of ancient languages to know that
"Terminus Est"  means "This is the Line of Division." 
 (Shadow, XIV)   A simpler translation would be "This
is the end."

Is Wolfe making little jokes (showing that Valeria and
Severian don't understand the dead languages as well
as they think) or is there something deeper going on?

Jack

Best wishes,

Jack

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From: Adam Thornton <adam at io.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:29:15 +0000

> as they think) or is there something deeper going on?

I could never decide whether it was meant to remind us that this was  
not really Latin and that translations (including, of course, the one  
from Severian's tongue into English!) are approximations, or whether  
he's making little jokes.  I incline towards the first.

Adam
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From: Martinus Scriblerus <martinus.scriblerus at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 18:52:07 +0000

>  (Shadow, XIV)   A simpler translation would be "This

Well, there are (the) Doors.

-- 
Martinus Scriblerus scripsit ex 50? 21' N, 4?41' W

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From: Lane Haygood <lhaygood at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 20:38:03 +0000

Consider Typhon's translation that it means "this is the place of  
parting." I think that we're looking at is a bit of the indeterminacy  
of translation.  First, assuming these really are in Latin (and not,  
as GW seems to imply in the appendices, merely "a dead language" that  
he is rendering in to Latin so that it appears to be "a dead language"  
to us), I think that there are two nominal translations going on:  the  
in-story translation of Latin to Commonwealth, and the meta-fictional  
translation from Commonwealth to English.  As languages change,  
conceptual schema change as well.  One concept in a certain language  
does not necessarily connote the same in a different language, nor  
does it necessarily denote the same as well.  Our anglicization of  
"terminus est," for example, is to mean "this is the end."  But  
realize that if we were to travel back in time to speak with a Roman,  
conversing entirely in Latin, we would not be able to determine if  
"this is the end" and "terminus est" are really conceptually  
identical, because language is, to a certain degree, opaque, and our  
understanding of it entirely external and performative.

What we're likely dealing with here is the original language A which  
says, as we understand it, "terminus est."  But at two different times  
during the history of the world, as that was translated in to  
Typhonese (language B) and Commonwealth (language C) we find that  
concepts have mutated, and the concept of "end" (stop, finish point)  
has become "where things were parted" or "where things were divided"  
through translations from A to B and A to C (or even B to C!).

Now, is Wolfe savvy enough to represent the indeterminacy of  
translation while at the same time making little clues and jokes, such  
as the association of divinity with the new sun, or telling us to  
"look (them up) and see (what I'm trying to tell you)?"

Yes.

Best,
Lane

On Jul 21, 2008, at 1:52 PM, Martinus Scriblerus wrote:

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From: David Duffy <david.duffy at qimr.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:47:19 +0000

> as they think) or is there something deeper going on?

No, I think they are word games, that often have a depth to them.  Wolfe 
delights in giving false etymologies, eg in _Peace_ for "brand new" and so 
forth.  My hypothesis has been that he uses the same Shorter Oxford 
Dictionary as I do, so for example "apheta [L f. Gk. aphetes starter, 
sender off.] Astrol. = Hyleg.  Hyleg...Astrol. The giver of life in a 
nativity" is funny, but the fuller definition of a hyleg by astrologers 
isn't.

So in the case of "terminus" "2a Rom. Antiq. The god presiding over 
boundaries or landmarkers ... 3. A boundary, a limit rare L17...4b the 
point at which something comes to an end".

David Duffy.

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From: Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 04:39:10 +0000

> longa.'  'Men wait long for happiness.'   'Aspice ut
All the Latin phrases Valeria gives are direct quotations of mottoes 
found on famous sundials. See my recent post on "Valeria" for details.

The phrase "terminus est" can be found in the Latin Vulgate for Numbers 
21:13. "... terminus est Moab..."