{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5114", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5114, "subject": "Breakfast with Apheta", "messages": 20, "voices": 12, "first": "2008-07-22T22:48:53+00:00", "last": "2008-07-29T22:28:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<001001c8ec4d$2290a1c0$02ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-07-22T22:48:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the morning after Severian bedded Apheta, she brought him breakfast on a\ntray. It consisted of \"... small cakes, a carafe of cool water, and cups of\nsome steaming liquid that looked like milk and yet was not milk.\" (URTH, XX,\n146) He ate one of the cakes and drank a cup of the milky fluid, after\nApheta took a bite of one of the cakes. I think this was the only meal\nSeverian mentioned having on Yesod, and I believe there is some significance\nto its components or their combination that eludes me. Any ideas?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-23T04:25:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<001001c8ec4d$2290a1c0$02ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wish I had a better answer for Roy's query but this is all I come up with. Maybe it \nis worth something:\n\nThe meal reminds me somewhat of the meal Pia serves Severian on a brassy tray.\nIt also has cakes (made of cattail flower and clams) and Pia tests the wine, the fish \nand the duck before Severian tries them. She doesn't taste the salad and of course \nthat's where the drug mushrooms are.\n\nApheta's meal is also served on a tray. She tastes the cakes first and then Severian\ntries them and sips milky drink from the cup. Apheta has to urge Severian to eat before\nhe finshes both. After that Severian says, among other things, \"As though the cup were \ndrugged, I seemed to stand infinitely far from myself, to watch myself as a man watches\na mote, to hear my own voice as a hawk hears the squeaking of a meadow mouse\".\n\nThe seeing of himself from far above definitely reminds me of Severian's feeling of double\nidentity when he is both a star (white fountain) and a man. Perhaps the milky drink \n(in addition to the sex?) did serve as some sort of drug which assists in creating Severian's\nNew Sun status.\n\nPia was a prisoner-slave when she rather unwillingly served the drugged meal to Severian.\nCould Apheta be in a similar role? There are a bunch of guys standing watch in her chambers.\nAnd in conversation during the meal, Apheta admits that she lied the previous night and didn't\ndesire Severian at all before they coupled; considers him a monster.\n\nWolfe used the \"squeaking of mice\" as a simile twice previously in this story. Once by Master \nPalaemon to say how the words of a prisoner should be heard in SotT. So again we must \nwonder about who might be a prisoner in this situation. Plus we have a predator/prey relationship\nmentioned.\n\nThe other use of the mouse simile is from CotA in a dream sequence. Severian hears Hethor's voice\nas the squeaking of a mouse. And in this dream, Hethor happens to be inside a carafe of water, the \nthird item from Apheta's meal. The dream has Hethor babbling on about his ship with its \"demon \nhaunted mirror sails, our hundred-league masts\" and \"My lady, the mate of my soul\", \"she is her \nown ship, she is the figurehead of her own ship and captain\". Tzadkiel? The dream also includes \n the Cumaean and Malrubius, who guide Severian to Typhon's eye where he is able to\nsee the fruits of the Urth of the New Sun.\n\nPerhaps I have been unduly influenced by the What's So Great About Ushas thread but thanks to that\nand Roy I now may perceive another deceptive and perhaps sinister side to Apheta's role and thus the \nHierogrammates. Still a rather jumbled view I concede, but it makes one go, \"hmmm...\".\n\n-bsharp\n\nRoy's post:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the morning after Severian bedded Apheta, she brought him breakfast on a\ntray. It consisted of \"... small cakes, a carafe of cool water, and cups of\nsome steaming liquid that looked like milk and yet was not milk.\" (URTH, XX,\n146) He ate one of the cakes and drank a cup of the milky fluid, after\nApheta took a bite of one of the cakes. I think this was the only meal\nSeverian mentioned having on Yesod, and I believe there is some significance\nto its components or their combination that eludes me. Any ideas?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-07-23T08:40:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<001001c8ec4d$2290a1c0$02ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 22 Jul 2008, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nOn the morning after Severian bedded Apheta, she brought him breakfast on a\ntray. It consisted of \"... small cakes, a carafe of cool water, and cups of\nsome steaming liquid that looked like milk and yet was not milk.\" (URTH, XX,\n146) He ate one of the cakes and drank a cup of the milky fluid" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it ambrosia?\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6986.67.142.130.31.1216802670.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-23T08:44:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't look like it. Ambrosia is a type of honey, and nektar a type of\nmead.\n\nI am not sure if GW knows this, but I bet he does, he knows all sorts of\nother odd stuff. If he doesn't, of course, it could be intended to be.\n\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 22 Jul 2008, Roy C. Lackey wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the morning after Severian bedded Apheta, she brought him breakfast\non a\ntray. It consisted of \"... small cakes, a carafe of cool water, and cups\nof\nsome steaming liquid that looked like milk and yet was not milk.\" (URTH,\nXX,\n146) He ate one of the cakes and drank a cup of the milky fluid" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it ambrosia?\n\nDavid Duffy.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080723123433.GA25415@craft>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-23T12:34:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<001001c8ec4d$2290a1c0$02ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2008.07.22 17:48:53 -0500, \"Roy C. Lackey\" scribbled 0.5K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the morning after Severian bedded Apheta, she brought him breakfast on a\ntray. It consisted of \"... small cakes, a carafe of cool water, and cups of\nsome steaming liquid that looked like milk and yet was not milk.\" (URTH, XX,\n146) He ate one of the cakes and drank a cup of the milky fluid, after\nApheta took a bite of one of the cakes. I think this was the only meal\nSeverian mentioned having on Yesod, and I believe there is some significance\nto its components or their combination that eludes me. Any ideas?\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it just me, or do 'small cakes' scream Eucharist to anyone else?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nsupercomputer UTU d lamma airframe BOSS Lynch Starr munitions Bin" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0807230608s661d1ed8ge1da94d917afb1d7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-23T13:08:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<20080723123433.GA25415@craft>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took is as explicitly not a Eucharist. Cake contrasts with bread,\nwater contrasts with wine, God only knows what the \"milky fluid\" was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 8:34 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn 2008.07.22 17:48:53 -0500, \"Roy C. Lackey\" scribbled 0.5K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the morning after Severian bedded Apheta, she brought him breakfast on a\ntray. It consisted of \"... small cakes, a carafe of cool water, and cups of\nsome steaming liquid that looked like milk and yet was not milk.\" (URTH, XX,\n146) He ate one of the cakes and drank a cup of the milky fluid, after\nApheta took a bite of one of the cakes. I think this was the only meal\nSeverian mentioned having on Yesod, and I believe there is some significance\nto its components or their combination that eludes me. Any ideas?\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it just me, or do 'small cakes' scream Eucharist to anyone else?\n\n--\ngwern\nsupercomputer UTU d lamma airframe BOSS Lynch Starr munitions Bin\n\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nVersion: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)\n\niD8DBQFIhyVZvpDo5Pfl1oIRCo/GAJ96DsZedPkUyqFxPHQPCe0G4JlTDQCglI1Q\nuA3WsZEaeTgIfGhkc+795II=\n=KV5/\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4887386B.3030207@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-07-23T13:55:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807230608s661d1ed8ge1da94d917afb1d7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nI took is as explicitly not a Eucharist. Cake contrasts with bread,\nwater contrasts with wine, God only knows what the \"milky fluid\" was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Being on an island, perhaps it was coconut milk?\n\nFound on the internet:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Larvae are short, broad, and sluglike. Some species secrete honeydew,\na sweet by-product of digestion that attracts ants. The ants stroke,\nor ?milk, the larva with their legs to stimulate honeydew secretion.\nThe fragile adults of most blue species have brilliant blue wing\nsurfaces, generally much darker in the females than in the males." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7562D656095E415BB2DD78988B473DAF@LAPTOP>", "from": { "name": "Sue", "address": "sywi at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2008-07-23T17:59:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<4887386B.3030207@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi, all,\n\n\nJust wanted to introduce myself -- I just found and subscribed to this \nlistserv; although I've been a GW fan since I first picked up SotT, and then \nthe rest of the series, as fast as the books came out, when I was in high \nschool. (I've read them to rags, of course, in the intervening 20 years, and \nwould have done so even if I hadn't ended up majoring in classics in college \nand becoming a fantasy writer myself. --Nowhere near of Wolfe's caliber, I \nhasten to add, tho' that rather goes without saying.) In any case, today's \ndigest of \"Urth\" posts is the first I've received; and I'm delighted to meet \ny'all, so to speak.\n\nDon't have too much to add, except that now that I've been prompted to \nconsider the meal more closely, the 'milky fluid' seems to me suggestive of \nsemen.\n\n-- Chris " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080724013106.5A5261A003A@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "from": { "name": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com", "address": "thalassocrat at nym.hush.com" }, "date": "2008-07-24T01:31:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<7562D656095E415BB2DD78988B473DAF@LAPTOP>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy wrote:\n\n--------------------------\n\nOn the morning after Severian bedded Apheta, she brought him \nbreakfast on a\ntray. It consisted of \"... small cakes, a carafe of cool water, and \ncups of\nsome steaming liquid that looked like milk and yet was not milk.\" \n(URTH, XX,\n146) He ate one of the cakes and drank a cup of the milky fluid, \nafter\nApheta took a bite of one of the cakes. I think this was the only \nmeal\nSeverian mentioned having on Yesod, and I believe there is some \nsignificance\nto its components or their combination that eludes me. Any ideas?\n\n--------------------------\n\nShe's drugged him, I guess. Just another part of the set-up for the \nsham \"trial\". (And vague shades of Circe?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10807240617p319dc067xa55c2500dfba9879@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-24T13:17:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<7562D656095E415BB2DD78988B473DAF@LAPTOP>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Sue wrote:\n\n\nDon't have too much to add, except that now that I've been prompted to\nconsider the meal more closely, the 'milky fluid' seems to me suggestive of\nsemen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome to the list!\n\nRe: milky fluid: And I just thought I had a dirty mind... Not sure what the\nsignificance of that would be though - perhaps Apheta's returning Severian's\nfavor?\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807240743o71a686aeu30664a5186beed6d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-24T14:43:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10807240617p319dc067xa55c2500dfba9879@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, they do ostensibly have some surplus autarch testicles lying around...\nWhich incidentally brings up an interesting inconsistency: if I remember\ncorrectly, the reason given for the castration of Epitome candidates is to\nprevent them from forming dynasties, but this measure would clearly not work\nfor the majority of autarchs who apparently never even went to Yesod.\n(Severian seems to have trouble recalling others besides Ymar and his\npredecessor)\nIt's an odd rule to apply to a minor, and perhaps better, part of the pool.\nNevertheless, there don't seem to be dynasties anyway.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 9:17 AM, Matthew Keeley \nwrote:\n\n\nOn Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Sue wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don't have too much to add, except that now that I've been prompted to\nconsider the meal more closely, the 'milky fluid' seems to me suggestive of\nsemen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Welcome to the list!\n\nRe: milky fluid: And I just thought I had a dirty mind... Not sure what the\nsignificance of that would be though - perhaps Apheta's returning Severian's\nfavor?\n\n-Matt\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12344.72.171.0.145.1216910992.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-24T14:49:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807240743o71a686aeu30664a5186beed6d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, they do ostensibly have some surplus autarch testicles lying\naround...\nWhich incidentally brings up an interesting inconsistency: if I remember\ncorrectly, the reason given for the castration of Epitome candidates is to\nprevent them from forming dynasties, but this measure would clearly not\nwork\nfor the majority of autarchs who apparently never even went to Yesod.\n(Severian seems to have trouble recalling others besides Ymar and his\npredecessor)\nIt's an odd rule to apply to a minor, and perhaps better, part of the\npool.\nNevertheless, there don't seem to be dynasties anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK son, take the little knife and break Daddy's skull open....\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807240941y2e12035fu96ac42acec3bf094@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-24T16:41:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<12344.72.171.0.145.1216910992.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:49 AM, wrote:\n\nOK son, take the little knife and break Daddy's skull open...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If by that you mean that filial sentiments are enough to rule out dynasties,\nyour claim is on uncertain grounds given the histories of kings forced by\nchildren - for example, Henry II.\nThat notwithstanding, even if it's sufficient it again begs the question of\nwhy the castrations.\n\nPaul" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15791.67.142.130.30.1216919866.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-24T17:17:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807240941y2e12035fu96ac42acec3bf094@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:49 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "OK son, take the little knife and break Daddy's skull open...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If by that you mean that filial sentiments are enough to rule out\ndynasties, your claim is on uncertain grounds given the histories of\nkings forced by children - for example, Henry II." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was making a tiny joke. Poor little joke!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That notwithstanding, even if it's sufficient it again begs the question\nof why the castrations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's just good clean fun.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8712.67.142.130.30.1216920171.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-24T17:22:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<15791.67.142.130.30.1216919866.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mean, here you are, the autarch out by yourself in the woods with your\nsix year old son or daughter. Whatever happens happens to cut you off from\nyour support and bodygaurds and so on happens, and a tree falls on you,\nbreaking your back, causing massive internal injuries. It is apparent that\nyou are not going to live more than a few more minutes. Your child is\nunhurt. What do you do?\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:49 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "OK son, take the little knife and break Daddy's skull open...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If by that you mean that filial sentiments are enough to rule out\ndynasties, your claim is on uncertain grounds given the histories of\nkings forced by children - for example, Henry II." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was making a tiny joke. Poor little joke!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That notwithstanding, even if it's sufficient it again begs the question\nof why the castrations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's just good clean fun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90807241453l75f82924k6ca82ad623a41687@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-24T21:53:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<8712.67.142.130.30.1216920171.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Man, you do what you gotta do to keep the whole thing going, or so the\ncastration aliens tell you. It's certainly more likely that some adult who\nhappens along is more up to the task, but there's no reason that an autarch\nwho sits out on the trip to Yesod couldn't arrange it to be his kid.\nIt seems the reason the castration aliens give can't be the real reason. I\nguess they could just be having a bit of fun, or making sure they're taken\nseriously.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 1:22 PM, wrote:\nI mean, here you are, the autarch out by yourself in the woods with your\nsix year old son or daughter. Whatever happens happens to cut you off from\nyour support and bodygaurds and so on happens, and a tree falls on you,\nbreaking your back, causing massive internal injuries. It is apparent that\nyou are not going to live more than a few more minutes. Your child is\nunhurt. What do you do?\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:49 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "OK son, take the little knife and break Daddy's skull open...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If by that you mean that filial sentiments are enough to rule out\ndynasties, your claim is on uncertain grounds given the histories of\nkings forced by children - for example, Henry II." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was making a tiny joke. Poor little joke!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That notwithstanding, even if it's sufficient it again begs the question\nof why the castrations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's just good clean fun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<15677.67.142.130.33.1216938724.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-24T22:32:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<3e1fa2e90807241453l75f82924k6ca82ad623a41687@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could just be sadism. Yet another way in which the 'castration aliens'\nresemble God/angels and so on, who tend to be pretty sadistic, and\napparently enjoy messing with people that they like (cf Abraham).\n\nApropos of little or nothing, the idea of the Court of Heaven in Judaism\nand Christianity is modeled on the court of the (Achaemenid) Great King of\nPersia.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Man, you do what you gotta do to keep the whole thing going, or so the\ncastration aliens tell you. It's certainly more likely that some adult\nwho happens along is more up to the task, but there's no reason that an\nautarch who sits out on the trip to Yesod couldn't arrange it to be his\nkid.\nIt seems the reason the castration aliens give can't be the real reason.\nI guess they could just be having a bit of fun, or making sure they're\ntaken seriously." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul\n\nOn Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 1:22 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I mean, here you are, the autarch out by yourself in the woods with your\nsix year old son or daughter. Whatever happens happens to cut you off\nfrom\nyour support and bodygaurds and so on happens, and a tree falls on you,\nbreaking your back, causing massive internal injuries. It is apparent\nthat\nyou are not going to live more than a few more minutes. Your child is\nunhurt. What do you do?\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 10:49 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "OK son, take the little knife and break Daddy's skull open...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If by that you mean that filial sentiments are enough to rule out\ndynasties, your claim is on uncertain grounds given the histories of\nkings forced by children - for example, Henry II." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I was making a tiny joke. Poor little joke!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That notwithstanding, even if it's sufficient it again begs the\nquestion\nof why the castrations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's just good clean fun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080726231359.GB16857@craft>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-07-26T23:13:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0807230608s661d1ed8ge1da94d917afb1d7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2008.07.23 09:08:06 -0400, John Watkins scribbled 1.3K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I took is as explicitly not a Eucharist. Cake contrasts with bread,\nwater contrasts with wine, God only knows what the \"milky fluid\" was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dunno, I mean - aren't cakes made of bread (even if cake is meant in the confectionary sense)? According to Google, the phrase \"Eucharist cake\" isn't even unheard of." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nEDI Halliburton BRGE UHF JITEM composition high explosion EODG quarter" } ] }, { "message_id": "<147523787.20080729235824@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanisław Bocian", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2008-07-29T21:58:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<20080724013106.5A5261A003A@mailserver8.hushmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hierogrammates shouldn't be underestimated. They don't NEED Severian\nto create the White Fountain, they can do it by their own technology.\nHowever, they prefer not to act at all. They must be conscious that\nthey know the will of the Uncreate no better than anyone (the fable\nof the cock and angel says this openly), and so perhaps are unwilling\nto bear the guild for the mass murder on Urth.\n\nAccordingly, they take care to do nothing themselves at all: Apheta's\nexplanation of their speech shows that they generally don't act\nthemselves, but only modulate the acts of others. The discussion of\nHierodules with Baldanders shows that they consider themselves not to\nbe guilty for so \"modulated\" actions of others.\n\nAnd so, they needed Severian as an executioner who would lawfully\nexecute Urth. He had to be an autarch, so he could act as the lawful\nrepresentant of humanity. Except for that, he had no \"magic powers\".\nThe white fountain and Severian's connection to it was provided by\nHierogrammates - of course, in a way which absolves them of all guilt\nin the matter.\n\n Stanislaus B." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the morning after Severian bedded Apheta, she brought him \nbreakfast on a\ntray. It consisted of \"... small cakes, a carafe of cool water, and \ncups of\nsome steaming liquid that looked like milk and yet was not milk.\" \n(URTH, XX,\n146) He ate one of the cakes and drank a cup of the milky fluid, \nafter\nApheta took a bite of one of the cakes. I think this was the only \nmeal\nSeverian mentioned having on Yesod, and I believe there is some \nsignificance\nto its components or their combination that eludes me. Any ideas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She's drugged him, I guess. Just another part of the set-up for the \nsham \"trial\". (And vague shades of Circe?)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\nTanie rozmowy!\nSprawdz >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1e91" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14415.67.142.130.20.1217370532.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-07-29T22:28:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Breakfast with Apheta", "in_reply_to": "<147523787.20080729235824@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Closely reasoned and, I believe, as close to correct as anything is in the\nWorld.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hierogrammates shouldn't be underestimated. They don't NEED Severian\nto create the White Fountain, they can do it by their own technology.\nHowever, they prefer not to act at all. They must be conscious that\nthey know the will of the Uncreate no better than anyone (the fable\nof the cock and angel says this openly), and so perhaps are unwilling\nto bear the guild for the mass murder on Urth.\n\nAccordingly, they take care to do nothing themselves at all: Apheta's\nexplanation of their speech shows that they generally don't act\nthemselves, but only modulate the acts of others. The discussion of\nHierodules with Baldanders shows that they consider themselves not to\nbe guilty for so \"modulated\" actions of others.\n\nAnd so, they needed Severian as an executioner who would lawfully\nexecute Urth. He had to be an autarch, so he could act as the lawful\nrepresentant of humanity. Except for that, he had no \"magic powers\".\nThe white fountain and Severian's connection to it was provided by\nHierogrammates - of course, in a way which absolves them of all guilt\nin the matter.\n\n Stanislaus B." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the morning after Severian bedded Apheta, she brought him\nbreakfast on a\ntray. It consisted of \"... small cakes, a carafe of cool water, and\ncups of\nsome steaming liquid that looked like milk and yet was not milk.\"\n(URTH, XX,\n146) He ate one of the cakes and drank a cup of the milky fluid,\nafter\nApheta took a bite of one of the cakes. I think this was the only\nmeal\nSeverian mentioned having on Yesod, and I believe there is some\nsignificance\nto its components or their combination that eludes me. Any ideas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She's drugged him, I guess. Just another part of the set-up for the\nsham \"trial\". (And vague shades of Circe?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\n\n\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\nTanie rozmowy!\nSprawdz >>> http://link.interia.pl/f1e91\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }