{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5119",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 5119,
    "subject": "The Old Pen Case",
    "messages": 6,
    "voices": 3,
    "first": "2008-07-30T11:40:31+00:00",
    "last": "2008-08-01T17:48:24+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<4890532F.8050701@gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Dave Tallman",
        "address": "davetallman at msn.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-07-30T11:40:31+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) The Old Pen Case",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
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          "text": "OBW starts with: \"It is worthless, this old pen case I brought from \nViron. It is nothing. You might go around the market all day and never \nfind a single spirit who would trade you a fresh egg for it. Yet it \nholds... Enough. Yes, enough. I am sick of fancies.\"\n\nI believe we can take the old pen case as a metaphor for the old body \nHorn has brought back from the whorl. \"At present it holds two quills, \nfor I have taken the third one out. Two were in it when I found it in \nthe ashes of our shop. The third, with which I am writing, was dropped \nby Oreb not so long ago.\" To push the analogy, the three pens are three \nspirits: Silk, Pas, and Horn. The third, with which he begins to write \nthis book, will be \"dropped\" before the end.\n\nI believe we can trace the major changes in the contents of the \"pen \ncase\" through key events in the book:\n\n1) Horn falls into the pit, dies, and is resurrected after three days by \nthe power of the Neighbors. I believe this is when he gained the power \nto astral-project. Many have asked why he didn't use his astral \nprojection power to visit Nettle: in fact, he did so once and it \nfrightened her so much that he never repeated it (OBW 9, p. 203).\n\nHe probably also gained the power to alter stories at this time. One \naspect of this seems to be the ability to alter objects in his own \npossession. He converted the ring Oreb found into Seawrack's ring, and \nhe converted the leather-and-metal pen case he found on the steps of \nSmoothbone's ruined shop (RttW 12, p. 252) into a leather-and-pasteboard \npen case \"found... in the ashes of our shop.\" (I think Horn didn't want \nto admit to himself that his father ran back to the old shop and left \nhis own personal pen case for Horn to find when he excused himself at \nthe tavern).\n\n2) Horn hears Seawrack's siren song and becomes enthralled by it. From \nthen on, he can hear her singing whereever he is, and even infect others \nwith this ability (IGJ 17, pp. 266-267). I don't remember whether he can \nhear her on Green or in the Whorl, but he probably can't on Urth since \nhe calls the Matachin Tower a haven of rest and prayer (RttW 13, p. 263).\n\n3) Horn is transferred into Silk's body on the Whorl. Silk is in the \nmiddle of mourning the death of Hyacinth and has cut himself in grief (I \nbelieve that this is the traditional cutting of a mourner rather than a \nsuicide attempt). Horn/Silk denies who he is, realizing that if he \nreally replaced Silk he has destroyed the object of his mission. He pins \nhis hopes on the Silver Silk in Pig, but knows he cannot take Pig to \nGaon without endangering both of them.\n\n4) There was probably a transfer and merging of Passilk into Horn/Silk \nas well. Note the silver monitor screen in Pig's room (RttW 18, p. 372). \nOnce Pig had a working eye, an upload and re-download into Pig and Silk \nwas feasible. (Note: the idea that Pig was born blind is absurd -- the \nPassilk possession requires that he was sighted at the time he killed \nthe auger, not to mention that a blind man becoming a mercenary at all \nis nonsensical).\n\n5) At the escape from Gaon, part of Horn's spirit is projected into \nBabbie. This might have been enabled by the Neighbors or the Outsider. \nMore of Silk's personality is evident after this in the next book. Just \nlike the hunted Scylla, this may have been intended to protect part of \nhimself in case the inhumus killed him.\n\n6) There is a huge change in the appearance of Silk's astral form \nbetween one visit to Urth and the next. The difference seems to be the \nvisit to Greater Scylla. I believe that Horn's spirit separated from \nSilk and went into one of the undine tentacles of Scylla. Hoof sees the \nundine with glowing eyes who smiles at him, just as Babbie smiled (RttW \n17, pp. 365-366).\n\nOn the return from this projection Babbie is sleeping, and I believe \nBabbie also lost his part of Horn at this time. We don't see Babbie \nacting human again, and he eventually returns to Witch Island and Mucor. \nHe apparently doesn't go to the Whorl with Silk. In any case, as an \nanimal his lifespan is limited and he might not have lived long enough \nto travel with the Whorl when it was ready to go.\n\nThe attraction of the Greater Scylla to Horn's spirit is probably \nbecause of his enthrallment by Seawrack. In IGJ, Horn knew that a return \nto Seawrack would be suicidal and he asked no better death. Silk's deal \nwith Greater Scylla to summon the Mother and get Seawrack back was \nprobably also suicidal in intent, but his scruples about unfaithfulness \nto Nettle made him decide not to do that \"while Nettle was alive\" (RttW \n20, p. 407). Instead, he chose to provoke Juganu to kill him.  But after \ntalking to Remora and realizing that he was Silk and that Horn was gone, \nhe knew that he could summon Seawrack safely and get her away from Blue. \n(He was not Nettle's husband at all now, so he could call Seawrack even \nthough Nettle was still alive.) Getting Seawrack away from the Mother's \ninfluence might have enabled Silk to redeem her from being the siren \nman-trap she was into a fully human woman in time.\n\n7) Horn in the undine may have humanized her to some extent. It may be \nthat his influence caused this undine (separated from Scylla to become \nJuturna) to intervene in Severian's life in positive ways, contrary to \nthe will of Abaia.\n\n8) Severian's memories of the good Silk looking like the ghost of \nMalrubius (and also positively associated with the dog Triskele) \nprobably influenced the character of the aquastor that the Hierodules \nmade for him. I don't believe Silk himself revisited Severian to be that \naquastor himself."
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<26b0d2e40807301406s5ca42badmeb341f334d14523d@mail.gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Steve McCann",
        "address": "steve2mccann at gmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-07-30T21:06:53+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) The Old Pen Case",
      "in_reply_to": "<4890532F.8050701@gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
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          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Just on a personal note, speaking as a reader being acted upon by the text,\nthe first time I read the short sun series I was completely floored by the\nscene mentioned below. In my experience Wolfe always reveals what's going on\nbut you have to be open to seeing it. Even though I knew that Horn was dead,\nI did not want to believe it. I kept hoping for some kind of \"deus ex\nneighbor,\" something to rescue the hero of this series. Reading Wolfe is a\nsort of game but, borrowing from Delillo, what's a game to make us feel like\nthis?\n-s"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 5:40 AM, Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com> wrote:\nBut after talking to Remora and realizing that he was Silk and that Horn\nwas gone, he knew that he could summon Seawrack safely and get her away from\nBlue. (He was not Nettle's husband at all now, so he could call Seawrack\neven though Nettle was still alive.)"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<433397.98144.qm@web58203.mail.re3.yahoo.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Marc Aramini",
        "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-07-31T21:27:25+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) the old pen case",
      "in_reply_to": "<26b0d2e40807301406s5ca42badmeb341f334d14523d@mail.gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
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          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I certainly agree that Horn&#39;s essence flees into Babbie under the big tree at the end of On Blue&#39;s Waters where Silk begins to take over, but I need to look at this Scylla winking because I rather fancied it was more like the connection with Seawrack than Horn being transported into Scylla.  I do think the old pen case is a metaphor for the narator&#39;s spiritual condition.\n\n\n      "
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<4892F1C5.7000606@gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Dave Tallman",
        "address": "davetallman at msn.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-08-01T11:21:41+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) the old pen case",
      "in_reply_to": "<433397.98144.qm@web58203.mail.re3.yahoo.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Mark Aramini wrote:\nI need to look at this Scylla winking because I rather fancied it was more like the connection with Seawrack than Horn being transported into Scylla."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "On reflection, that part of my theory is weak because Hoof should have \nseen Silk's astral form change appearance before they left Urth. \nInstead, I'll blame the shadowy presence that Hoof sees near the boat: \n\"...there was sort of a shadow between the side and the water. Green was \nhalfway up over to starboard. So to port there was this shadow, and I \nfelt like she was down there, watching and listening, and she could make \nthe bird talk for her when she wanted to.\" (RttW 17, p. 367).\n\nI think Hoof was wrong to attribute this shadow to Scylla, but not too \nfar off. I think it was the Mother, Greater Scylla's sister. Silk told \nRemora that he was taught how to communicate with her, but he also said \nthat he would never have used the information while Nettle was alive. \nSilk wouldn't deliberately lie, buts it's possible his Horn side did \nthis without his knowledge. It may also be that the Mother sensed the \nvisit to Greater Scylla and came to investigate on her own (perhaps the \ntwo megatherians are in telepathic contact).\n\nIn any case, I think the presence of the Mother caused the departure of \nHorn's spirit. Seawrack's siren song had a powerful grip on him. He may \nhave gone into the Mother or perhaps just went to his final rest. \nImmediately after this, Scylla tells Hoof: \"He kill? Kill pa.\" (RttW 17, \np. 368). The next time Silk astral-projects his form is just a younger \nSilk without any trace of Horn (RttW 19, p. 388).\n\nIncidently, can we identify the blood-source of Juganu's astral form? He \nis blonde, hawk-nosed, and with an eye-color that reminds Hoof of an \niceberg (RttW 17, p. 346). I'm thinking this might be another Typhon \nrelative, but I'm not sure which one. It could be Tussah, since many say \nhe is a clone of Typhon. Juganu shows leadership skills in bringing \nhundreds of inhumi to attack the wedding."
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<646375.43147.qm@web58201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Marc Aramini",
        "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-08-01T16:00:29+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) the old pen case",
      "in_reply_to": "<4892F1C5.7000606@gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "well, remember that blue eyes were very rare in the whorl, and silk was one of the fe with those attributes.  are iceberg eyes blue?  I am certain that the embryo silk was born of blue eyed mamelta (kypris) and typhon (pas).  so if the crypt severian goes to to see his face is where the daughter of typhon lies ... who looks like severian in that family crypt? and how is he related to silk, the biological son of typhon? I don&#39;t know who juganu could be formed from, but iceberg eyes limits the options significantly.\n\n\n      "
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<603738.59311.qm@web58205.mail.re3.yahoo.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Marc Aramini",
        "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-08-01T17:48:24+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) the old pen case",
      "in_reply_to": "<646375.43147.qm@web58201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
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          "text": "the alteration/switching of the rings in short sun is something else that bothers me, and I feel that there is something very important about it. Certainly the liana staff silk carries is a nascent ancestor of the inhumi, allowing his astral travel. \n \nI must also apologize for the proliferation of typos and lack of capitalization in my recent posts- I am accessing the net from a phone that makes typing tedious.\n\n\n      "
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}