{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5126",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 5126,
    "subject": "Cave Canem back online",
    "messages": 6,
    "voices": 3,
    "first": "2008-08-08T13:26:17+00:00",
    "last": "2008-08-09T11:11:28+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<20080808132617.GA12024@craft>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Gwern Branwen",
        "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-08-08T13:26:17+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Cave Canem back online",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On Fri, Jan 25, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk> wrote:\nHi all,\n\nJust a quick note to say that we've added the contents of Robert\nBorski's Cave Canem website to the WolfeWiki.\n\nYou probably already know that this website, which hasn't been\navailable online for some time, contained a number of Robert's essays\nand other pieces about The Fifth Head of Cerberus. He's now very\nkindly agreed to add it to our wiki.\n\nUnlike the other wiki material, these Cave Canem pages can't be\nedited or revised (except by Robert himself), but each has a\ndiscussion / annotation page associated with it, where you can make\ncomments, etc.\n\n(There are though probably all sorts of bugs and oddities that have\nbeen introduced during the conversion process of adding it to the\nwiki, so if you spot any such, do please let me know so I can correct them.)\n\nAnyway, the front page of it is here:\nhttp://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=CaveCanem.Index\n\nso please go ahead and read, enjoy and muse upon Cave Canem!\n\nbest,\n\nMo"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "So speaking of the WolfeWiki, what license is it under? (I believe choice of license is tremendously important for all the reason adumbrated back during the discussions about setting up a wiki.)\n\nI looked all over the introductions and links, but it doesn't seem to be discussed anywhere, and the wiki also doesn't seem to let me edit anonymously, so..."
        },
        {
          "kind": "sig",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "gwern\nPABX LABLINK Dake BRIGAND ISWG Honduras JERTO virus genetic Mavricks"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<20080808153245.3E5B548002@diego.dreamhost.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG",
        "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk"
      },
      "date": "2008-08-08T15:32:53+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Cave Canem back online",
      "in_reply_to": "<20080808132617.GA12024@craft>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "At 14:26 08/08/2008, you wrote:\nSo speaking of the WolfeWiki, what license is it under? (I believe \nchoice of license is tremendously important for all the reason \nadumbrated back during the discussions about setting up a wiki.)"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "That is an issue that the contributors have not yet discussed."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I looked all over the introductions and links, but it doesn't seem \nto be discussed anywhere, and the wiki also doesn't seem to let me \nedit anonymously, so..."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "That's right -- you have to have a username to edit. You can create a \nuser account by providing a valid email address (which is kept private).\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki\nhttp://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/ "
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<20080808155833.GA15796@craft>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Gwern Branwen",
        "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-08-08T15:58:33+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Cave Canem back online",
      "in_reply_to": "<20080808153245.3E5B548002@diego.dreamhost.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "On 2008.08.08 16:32:53 +0100, Mo Holkar / UKG <lists at ukg.co.uk> scribbled 0.7K characters:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "At 14:26 08/08/2008, you wrote:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "So speaking of the WolfeWiki, what license is it under? (I believe\nchoice of license is tremendously important for all the reason\nadumbrated back during the discussions about setting up a wiki.)"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "That is an issue that the contributors have not yet discussed."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I see. They ought to be pushed to discuss it, and sooner rather than later - the longer such a discussion is delayed, the worse off everyone will be."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "I looked all over the introductions and links, but it doesn't seem to\nbe discussed anywhere, and the wiki also doesn't seem to let me edit\nanonymously, so..."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "That's right -- you have to have a username to edit. You can create a\nuser account by providing a valid email address (which is kept private).\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Mm. Well, since the license situation is unclear I consider there to be no point in registering and contributing. (Life's a bit too short to hamstring the utility of editing or risk making them useless because of derivative works; especially when there's still a ton of work which could be done on Wikipedia, which has no such issues.)"
        },
        {
          "kind": "sig",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "gwern\nMorse Keyhole shbangs SASP jihad watchers NIJ Nerd RCMP 3848"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<489CAEC3.8010103@gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Dave Tallman",
        "address": "davetallman at msn.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-08-08T20:38:27+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Cave Canem back online",
      "in_reply_to": "<20080808155833.GA15796@craft>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Qwern wrote:\nMm. Well, since the license situation is unclear I consider there to be no point in registering and contributing. (Life's a bit too short to hamstring the utility of editing or risk making them useless because of derivative works; especially when there's still a ton of work which could be done on Wikipedia, which has no such issues.)\n  "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I'm about the only active contributor right now other than Mo, though I \nsaw a new registration recently. What about the Gnu Free Document \nLicense? That's what Wikipedia uses, so that would seem to handle your \nobjection."
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<20080808225221.GA15052@craft>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Gwern Branwen",
        "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2008-08-08T22:52:21+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Cave Canem back online",
      "in_reply_to": "<489CAEC3.8010103@gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "On 2008.08.08 14:38:27 -0600, Dave Tallman <davetallman at msn.com> scribbled 0.6K characters:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Qwern wrote:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "Mm. Well, since the license situation is unclear I consider there to be no point in registering and contributing. (Life's a bit too short to hamstring the utility of editing or risk making them useless because of derivative works; especially when there's still a ton of work which could be done on Wikipedia, which has no such issues.)"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I'm about the only active contributor right now other than Mo, though I\nsaw a new registration recently. What about the Gnu Free Document\nLicense? That's what Wikipedia uses, so that would seem to handle your\nobjection."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Well, it would handle my objection, yes. But since there is no license in place (or to put it another way, the current license is All Rights Reserved), I would *strongly* recommend *not* using the GFDL. The GFDL has many very bad features which have caused Wikipedia tremendous trouble; Wikipedia's not even using the full GFDL, and we've still invested a lot of effort with Creative Commons and the FSF to get the GFDL updated into something not terrible.\n\nAs I said before, I would recommend public-domain/BSD to start off with, for maximum flexibility. And then if contributors wanted to*, use the Creative Commons ShareAlike license (either with or without Attribution, but avoiding NC).\n\n* The primary purpose of using a copyleft license is to prevent people stealing your content and 'closing' it; but honestly, while many people would like to steal and close the Linux kernel, say, I don't really think a small wiki on Wolfeana really needs to worry about that."
        },
        {
          "kind": "sig",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "gwern\nMorse Keyhole shbangs SASP jihad watchers NIJ Nerd RCMP 3848"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<20080809111119.25B0148043@diego.dreamhost.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG",
        "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk"
      },
      "date": "2008-08-09T11:11:28+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Cave Canem back online",
      "in_reply_to": "<20080808225221.GA15052@craft>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "At 23:52 08/08/2008, Gwern wrote:\nWell, it would handle my objection, yes. But since there is no \nlicense in place (or to put it another way, the current license is \nAll Rights Reserved), I would *strongly* recommend *not* using the \nGFDL. The GFDL has many very bad features which have caused \nWikipedia tremendous trouble; Wikipedia's not even using the full \nGFDL, and we've still invested a lot of effort with Creative Commons \nand the FSF to get the GFDL updated into something not terrible.\n\nAs I said before, I would recommend public-domain/BSD to start off \nwith, for maximum flexibility. And then if contributors wanted to*, \nuse the Creative Commons ShareAlike license (either with or without \nAttribution, but avoiding NC).\n\n* The primary purpose of using a copyleft license is to prevent \npeople stealing your content and 'closing' it; but honestly, while \nmany people would like to steal and close the Linux kernel, say, I \ndon't really think a small wiki on Wolfeana really needs to worry about that."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I'm pretty ignorant about such matters myself, so very much welcome \nany suggestions from anyone who's interested.\n\nI've created a page on the wiki:\nhttp://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Admin.Licence\nfor discussion of licence matters, rather than clog up this list too much.\n\n(Yes, one does need to sign up to contribute to this page, but anyone \nwho'd rather not do so yet can just email me and I'll post up your \nsuggestions etc.)\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki\nhttp://www.holkar.net/pmwiki/ "
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}