{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5129", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5129, "subject": "A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "messages": 26, "voices": 9, "first": "2008-08-13T17:35:17+00:00", "last": "2008-09-19T13:45:25+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40808131035y6be10450t6664fc365ca51ff8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-08-13T17:35:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With what we know about the inhumi, Mucor, and astral projection from the\nBotSS, we can revisit the sequence leading to the appearance of Pike's ghost\nin LotLS.\n\nThere are several things to explain.\n\n1) Why is the wrapping on Silk'a arm rather than his ankle?\n\nHe was so tired that he didn't want to have to keep recharging the wrapping\nthrough the night, so it made sense to take it off. He could have put it on\nhis arm to pad the wounds there so he could sleep better, or because he knew\nit was valuable and wanted to guard against thieves. (But in the latter case\nit would make more sense to lock it up with the azoth, so I favor the first\nexplanation).\n\n2) Why did the wrapping get frosty?\n\nThe wrapping normally cooled as it lost energy, but to get frosty in a hot\nroom required energy for refrigeration. It may be another medical function\nof the wrap -- if its built-in AI sensed it was wrapped around an infected\nsite it might get cold to help kill the germs. The cold wrap caused his\ndream about Kypris grabbing his arm and giving him cold kisses, and it woke\nhim up.\n\n3) What did Silk see flapping away in the window?\n\nMany have speculated that it was Quetzal he saw, but I find that\nunconvincing. From the later books we know the inhumi cannot change their\nsize that much. A human-sized Quetzal in flying form could not be mistaken\nfor Oreb, even by a groggy Silk.\n\nIf the sight of Oreb wasn't part of Silk's dream, then it really was Oreb he\nsaw, whatever the bird said. Oreb couldn't fly yet, but that's not a\nproblem. Mucor was there, and she is known to be able to make her possession\nvictims levitate (Crassula's story in NtLS, chapter 11).\n\nI believe that Mucor possessed Oreb and brought him into Silk's room through\nthe window. She was probably trying to cause Silk some trouble after his\n\"exorcism\" drove her away from her fun at Orchid's. Oreb's repeated denial\nof \"No steal!\" suggests she was trying to get Oreb to steal something --\nmaybe the wrap. If she had something of value to Silk she might have been\nable to get leverage against his blackmail. Oreb's tugging at the wrap on\nSilk's arm might have contributed to his dream about trying to pull free\nfrom Kypris/Hyacinth.\n\nOreb was afraid to admit to Silk what had happened, but his answers were\ntechnically true. \"No fly\" -- he wasn't flying on his own. \"No hop\" -- he\ndidn't hop down. \"No steal\" -- he didn't successfully steal Silk's wrap.\n\n4) Why did Mucor reveal herself to Silk?\n\nShe had an attraction to him, as shown by her \"We'll be lovers\" when she\npossessed Mamelta. She could have just left when she let go of Oreb, but she\nchose to tempt him for a moment instead.\n\nAnother possibility is that she detected the presence of Quetzal in the\nvicinity (see the theory below). She might have been trying to wake Silk up\nenough so that he could defend himself. One flaw with this idea is that she\napparently couldn't see Quetzal when she astral-projected. She called him\n\"the man who isn't there.\"\n\n5) What caused the creaking of the bed? Why did Patera Pike's ghost appear?\n\nWolfe said in an question-and-answer session (\nhttp://www.ansible.co.uk/cc/cc77.html) that the apparition was not\nmachine-made. That eliminates the Hierodule-created-aquastor theory and the\nMainframe-generated-ghost theory, in spite of the shimmering disappearance.\nHe also said it was not Quetzal. Inhumi don't seem to be able to impersonate\nother people (only make themselves look human) so I think any other inhumi\nis also out. Silk astral-projecting through time would also not look enough\nlike Pike to be mistaken for him by Silk, who knew the man well. The most\nlikely case is a real ghost.\n\nThere are two possible explanations for the ghost. The simplest is that the\npresence of Mucor stirred up Pike's ghost. He appeared in his bedroom first,\nthen went to check to see if Silk was all right (moving through the closed\ndoor). He found his calotte there and put it on. With the solid cap on, he\nhad to open the door to get out. When he saw that Silk was all right, he\nsmiled, waved, and vanished. There is a real connection between the calotte\nand Mucor, since Silk wore it on the raid on Blood's house and therefore in\nthe presence of Mucor.\n\nThe second explanation is more complicated but I like it better. I think\nQuetzal was there that night, wanting to attack Silk. Sphigxday night was\nthe night after Teasel was bitten. Quetzal could have returned for more\nblood and found the names of Silk and Pike written outside the window.\nQuetzal said that he \"went wide\" when he saw Silk's name on the fifth floor\nof a building. Silk had to climb four flights of stairs to get to Teasel's\nroom.\n\nI don't believe the superstitious explanation that magic worked or that\nQuetzal was afraid of the sign of the cross. He couldn't be the Prolocutor\nif he was. The answer might be his fear of exposure as an inhumu. He knew\nthat Pike was on his case, possibly correlating the descriptions given by\nhis victims, and now he knew that Pike had told Silk about it.\n\nPike died a about month after he told Silk about the blood-sucking \"demons\"\nand that he was fighting them. (NtLS, chapter 9). This may not have been a\ncoincidence. Quetzal or one of his inhumi \"doctor\" allies might have killed\nPike by draining his blood over a period of time. Pike is shown sacrificing\na rabbit to the Outsider in Silk's first enlightenment, once with a vivid\nimage of blood. Quetzal's Genesis story likens humans to rabbits. (We know\nthe sacrifice was to the Outsider because the rabbit was speckled -- animals\nthat are not pure black or pure white can only be offered to all the gods or\nto a specific minor god: LotLS ch. 2. Also, the enlightenment contained\ninformation about the prayers that the Outsider was answering).\n\nIt's interesting that Pike's ghost would put on his old calotte. He only\nwore it on the coldest days (NtLS ch. 3), and this was a hot night. He died\nin the spring, so it couldn't be because of the memory of his last day\nalive. In the enlightenment vision of the rabbit his hands were said to be\ncold. (NtLS ch. 1). Loss of blood would make him feel cold, so that may be\nanother clue about his death.\n\nDr. Crane implied that he tried to become a doctor for Quetzal and was\nsnubbed. \"Haven't you noticed that when he gets sick I'm not the one he\nsends for? Well, that's why. Now and then I make a mistake. The sort of\ndoctors he had in never do. Just ask them.\" Quetzal would never dare let a\nreal doctor examine him, so his \"doctors\" must be fellow inhumi. A job as a\ndoctor to the Prolocutor would have been nice for a spy. So would working\nfor someone in the Ayuntamiento, but they used chem substitute bodies. Crane\nhad to settle for being Blood's doctor.\n\nIf Quetzal killed Pike, he knew where his bedroom was and he would have\nexpected Silk to have moved into it. The creaking of the bed in Pike's old\nroom might have been caused by Quetzal. Finding Silk absent, he might have\nsat on the bed to await his return, causing the creaking.\n\nPike's ghost must have a strong reason for appearing. Remora once said that\nholy augers rarely have ghosts (in RttW). Pike wasn't altogether holy (as\nthe father of Blood with Rose), but one would think he would be\nheavenly-minded enough to avoid ghosthood. But if Pike was murdered by an\ninhumi, that would give him unfinished business. He might have appeared to\ndrive off Quetzal and assure himself that Silk was safe." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-13T17:52:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40808131035y6be10450t6664fc365ca51ff8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please, everybody, let's get this right, 'cause it's an easy one and\nit's really frustrating:\n\nmasculine: inhumu\nfeminine: inhuma\nplural: inhumi\n\nHow can we trust a close reading when the analysis based on it gets\nsomething as simple as this wrong?\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40808131107p1a89eb4cl1cb858b1163f84@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-08-13T18:07:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All right, I said \"an inhumi\" a couple of times in there. I meant it as a\ngender-neutral shortcut for \"an inhumu or an inhuma.\" People often use the\nplural for gender-neutrality in their writing these days. If you let a\nquibble like that spoil your entire trust of my reading, I'm sorry." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-13T18:37:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40808131107p1a89eb4cl1cb858b1163f84@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Mr. Tallman,\n\nI actually don't mean to pick on you personally; my frustration with\nthe issue just happened to overflow while I was reading your post. I\napologize if I upset you.\n\nHowever, you did write, \"I think any other inhumi is also out,\" which\ncould just as easily and more correctly have been rendered with \"are\"\nwithout losing gender-neutrality. Other instances of singular inhumi\naren't (as) easy to make both gender-neutral and plural without\nchanging your meaning, so for them, your explanation satisfies me.\nAnd you get points, on the gripping hand, for writing of Quetzal, \"his\nfear of exposure as an inhumu,\" later in your post.\n\nBecause, y'know, I do seem to be in a picky mood today.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday 13 August 2008, Dave Tallman wrote:\nAll right, I said \"an inhumi\" a couple of\ntimes in there. I meant it as a gender-\nneutral shortcut for \"an inhumu or an\ninhuma.\" People often use the plural for\ngender-neutrality in their writing these\ndays. If you let a quibble like that spoil\nyour entire trust of my reading, I'm sorry." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1993.67.142.130.37.1218655137.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-08-13T19:18:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why is it important to you that other people should conform to your\nstandards of correctness, Mark? If you understand what they are saying, is\nit really necessary that you point out to them that they are wrong? Why do\nyou do this, if it is not necessary?\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dear Mr. Tallman,\n\nI actually don't mean to pick on you personally; my frustration with\nthe issue just happened to overflow while I was reading your post. I\napologize if I upset you.\n\nHowever, you did write, \"I think any other inhumi is also out,\" which\ncould just as easily and more correctly have been rendered with \"are\"\nwithout losing gender-neutrality. Other instances of singular inhumi\naren't (as) easy to make both gender-neutral and plural without\nchanging your meaning, so for them, your explanation satisfies me.\nAnd you get points, on the gripping hand, for writing of Quetzal, \"his\nfear of exposure as an inhumu,\" later in your post.\n\nBecause, y'know, I do seem to be in a picky mood today.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman\n\n\nOn Wednesday 13 August 2008, Dave Tallman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All right, I said \"an inhumi\" a couple of\ntimes in there. I meant it as a gender-\nneutral shortcut for \"an inhumu or an\ninhuma.\" People often use the plural for\ngender-neutrality in their writing these\ndays. If you let a quibble like that spoil\nyour entire trust of my reading, I'm sorry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-13T19:25:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "<1993.67.142.130.37.1218655137.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear brunians,\n\nDunno. Why is it important for you to know?\n\nAlternatively: Don't you ever feel that way?\n\nAlso, and most pickily: Please note that I haven't invited you to\naddress me by my given name.\n\nBut, I fear, we're getting way too off-topic now, so I won't be\nresponding to any more messages in this thread.\n\nAnybody who wants the last word is welcome to it.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday 13 August 2008, brunians wrote:\nWhy is it important to you that other people\nshould conform to your standards of correct-\nness, Mark? If you understand what they\nare saying, is it really necessary that you\npoint out to them that they are wrong? Why\ndo you do this, if it is not necessary?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-13T19:45:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Last!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Mark Millman wrote:\nDear brunians,\n\nDunno. Why is it important for you to know?\n\nAlternatively: Don't you ever feel that way?\n\nAlso, and most pickily: Please note that I haven't invited you to\naddress me by my given name.\n\nBut, I fear, we're getting way too off-topic now, so I won't be\nresponding to any more messages in this thread.\n\nAnybody who wants the last word is welcome to it.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman\n\n\nOn Wednesday 13 August 2008, brunians wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why is it important to you that other people\nshould conform to your standards of correct-\nness, Mark? If you understand what they\nare saying, is it really necessary that you\npoint out to them that they are wrong? Why\ndo you do this, if it is not necessary?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<657689524-1218657036-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-763518310-@bxe166.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2008-08-13T19:50:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ".....Word\n------Original Message------\nFrom: Matthew King\nSender: \nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReplyTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSent: Aug 13, 2008 12:45 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike\n\nLast!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Mark Millman wrote:\nDear brunians,\n\nDunno. Why is it important for you to know?\n\nAlternatively: Don't you ever feel that way?\n\nAlso, and most pickily: Please note that I haven't invited you to\naddress me by my given name.\n\nBut, I fear, we're getting way too off-topic now, so I won't be\nresponding to any more messages in this thread.\n\nAnybody who wants the last word is welcome to it.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman\n\n\nOn Wednesday 13 August 2008, brunians wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why is it important to you that other people\nshould conform to your standards of correct-\nness, Mark? If you understand what they\nare saying, is it really necessary that you\npoint out to them that they are wrong? Why\ndo you do this, if it is not necessary?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8914.67.142.130.20.1218660453.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-08-13T20:47:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Anthropological Fieldwork", "in_reply_to": "<657689524-1218657036-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-763518310-@bxe166.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To answer Mark's questions in order: it's not, no, and so what?\n\nPeople divide into those who wish to control the actions of others and\nthose who do not. The motivations of the first group are of interest to\nme, so when I observe this behavior, I have been known to attempt to\nascertain the motivations of the individual so behaving.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ".....Word\n------Original Message------\nFrom: Matthew King\nSender:\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nReplyTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSent: Aug 13, 2008 12:45 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike\n\nLast!\n\nOn Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Mark Millman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dear brunians,\n\nDunno. Why is it important for you to know?\n\nAlternatively: Don't you ever feel that way?\n\nAlso, and most pickily: Please note that I haven't invited you to\naddress me by my given name.\n\nBut, I fear, we're getting way too off-topic now, so I won't be\nresponding to any more messages in this thread.\n\nAnybody who wants the last word is welcome to it.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman\n\n\nOn Wednesday 13 August 2008, brunians wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why is it important to you that other people\nshould conform to your standards of correct-\nness, Mark? If you understand what they\nare saying, is it really necessary that you\npoint out to them that they are wrong? Why\ndo you do this, if it is not necessary?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48A3BB08.5010603@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-08-14T04:56:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Anthropological Fieldwork", "in_reply_to": "<8914.67.142.130.20.1218660453.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nTo answer Mark's questions in order: it's not, no, and so what?\n\nPeople divide into those who wish to control the actions of others and\nthose who do not. The motivations of the first group are of interest to\nme, so when I observe this behavior, I have been known to attempt to\nascertain the motivations of the individual so behaving." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't \"control\" is a bit strong for a peer's plea involving \"please\" and\n\"let's\" ?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11103.67.142.130.42.1218692923.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-08-14T05:48:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Anthropological Fieldwork", "in_reply_to": "<48A3BB08.5010603@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To answer Mark's questions in order: it's not, no, and so what?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "People divide into those who wish to control the actions of others and\nthose who do not. The motivations of the first group are of interest to\nme, so when I observe this behavior, I have been known to attempt to\nascertain the motivations of the individual so behaving." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Isn't \"control\" is a bit strong for a peer's plea involving \"please\" and\n\"let's\" ?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that pleading is an accurate description of what Mark was\ndoing.\n\nThat's enough out of me: I risk indulging in the very pedantry I deplore.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<48A5E626.5030204@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-08-15T20:25:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Anthropological Fieldwork", "in_reply_to": "<11103.67.142.130.42.1218692923.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "To answer Mark's questions in order: it's not, no, and so what?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "People divide into those who wish to control the actions of others and\nthose who do not. The motivations of the first group are of interest to\nme, so when I observe this behavior, I have been known to attempt to\nascertain the motivations of the individual so behaving." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Isn't \"control\" is a bit strong for a peer's plea involving \"please\" and\n\"let's\" ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think that pleading is an accurate description of what Mark was\ndoing.\n\nThat's enough out of me: I risk indulging in the very pedantry I deplore." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "er, are you sure you're on the right list?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<618017.75963.qm@web32405.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-09-09T21:14:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) an evil guest", "in_reply_to": "<48A5E626.5030204@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi everybody,\n\nJust got my finished copy of the book (I know it's not out 'til the 16th, but a rep sent it to me). I plan to read it asap and give a short spoiler free review.\n\nbye now\n\nDon\n\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<67370ACDB5594FD7BB8CB3FA5E7EFFF7@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-17T20:32:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40808131035y6be10450t6664fc365ca51ff8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave,\n\nI'm coming very late to this, but no one ever responded to your original post.\n\nI find it interesting that you specifically noted the additional understanding to be gained from tBotSS regarding Pike's ghost yet failed to note another fairly obvious explaination which I suggest you consider: that the Pike's ghost was the Raja (aka Silkhorn) in spirit-travel.\n\nReasons for believing this:\n\n 1.. The appearance of a second Oreb with a healed wing which faded away as he flew off.\n -\n 2.. The ghost interacts with Pike's callotte which drops to the floor after he fades. This is behavior very unlike a gothic ghost, but comports well with the physics of a spirit-traveling person.\n -\n 3.. Yes, this would mean that a spirit-traveller would have to be able to travel in time as well. But there are many reasons to be convinced that this is so. The grandmother (in In Green's Jungles IIRC) ends her story with a description of the Raja and Oreb standing by a grave. The easiest explanation of this is that the Raja heard the grandmother's story and was prompted to go back in Time and do it. And in RttW, when Horn's sons describe when they left home, it is clear that there is something seriously wrong with the timeline.\n -\n 4.. Wolfe says it was a \"real ghost\". Well, the Raja during spirit travel IS a real ghost (meeting the Raja's definition of one): He is a disembodied spirit of a person who has died.\nReasons people don't like this:\n\nI think the main one that bugs people is that it means that Silk mistook himself 20 years later for Pike. I don't have a problem with this at all. It works just fine with me. But considering the insufficiency of all the other explanations, and that this is the only one that causes the event to be part of the general narrative, rather than a bizarre \"one off\". I think readers are compelled to accept that Pike's ghost was the Raja and to grapple with Silk's misapprehension however they will.\n\nJ\n\n----- Original Message ----- \n From: Dave Tallman \n To: urth at lists.urth.net \n Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:35 PM\n Subject: (urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike\n\n\n With what we know about the inhumi, Mucor, and astral projection from the BotSS, we can revisit the sequence leading to the appearance of Pike's ghost in LotLS.\n [..]\n 5) What caused the creaking of the bed? Why did Patera Pike's ghost appear?\n\n Wolfe said in an question-and-answer session (http://www.ansible.co.uk/cc/cc77.html) that the apparition was not machine-made. That eliminates the Hierodule-created-aquastor theory and the Mainframe-generated-ghost theory, in spite of the shimmering disappearance. He also said it was not Quetzal. Inhumi don't seem to be able to impersonate other people (only make themselves look human) so I think any other inhumi is also out. Silk astral-projecting through time would also not look enough like Pike to be mistaken for him by Silk, who knew the man well. The most likely case is a real ghost.\n\n There are two possible explanations for the ghost. The simplest is that the presence of Mucor stirred up Pike's ghost. He appeared in his bedroom first, then went to check to see if Silk was all right (moving through the closed door). He found his calotte there and put it on. With the solid cap on, he had to open the door to get out. When he saw that Silk was all right, he smiled, waved, and vanished. There is a real connection between the calotte and Mucor, since Silk wore it on the raid on Blood's house and therefore in the presence of Mucor.\n\n The second explanation is more complicated but I like it better. I think Quetzal was there that night, wanting to attack Silk. Sphigxday night was the night after Teasel was bitten. Quetzal could have returned for more blood and found the names of Silk and Pike written outside the window. Quetzal said that he \"went wide\" when he saw Silk's name on the fifth floor of a building. Silk had to climb four flights of stairs to get to Teasel's room." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-17T20:54:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "<67370ACDB5594FD7BB8CB3FA5E7EFFF7@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just some points to consider:\n \n1) Oreb in Astral form was always like a small boy with feathers. He is ALWAYS like that because the astral form shows how a person's spirit \"is\". For example Silkhorn says, when he sees Babbie in astral form for the first time, that he was curious to see how much \"human\" babbie was. This does not agree well with seeying Oreb in astral form as he is in the real world.\n \n2) There's nothing in Wolfe's Solar Cycle that goes against a ghost having physical form capable of interacting with objects. In fact there are plenty of examples on \"gothic stories\" in which ghosts do have physical presence and can interact with physical objects. \n \n \nPedro\n\n\n\nFrom: crushtv at gmail.comTo: urth at lists.urth.netDate: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:32:07 -0500Subject: Re: (urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike\n\n\n\nDave,\n \nI'm coming very late to this, but no one ever responded to your original post.\n \nI find it interesting that you specifically noted the additional understanding to be gained from tBotSS regarding Pike's ghost yet failed to note another fairly obvious explaination which I suggest you consider: that the Pike's ghost was the Raja (aka Silkhorn) in spirit-travel.\n \nReasons for believing this:\n \n\nThe appearance of a second Oreb with a healed wing which faded away as he flew off.-\nThe ghost interacts with Pike's callotte which drops to the floor after he fades. This is behavior very unlike a gothic ghost, but comports well with the physics of a spirit-traveling person.-\nYes, this would mean that a spirit-traveller would have to be able to travel in time as well. But there are many reasons to be convinced that this is so. The grandmother (in In Green's Jungles IIRC) ends her story with a description of the Raja and Oreb standing by a grave. The easiest explanation of this is that the Raja heard the grandmother's story and was prompted to go back in Time and do it. And in RttW, when Horn's sons describe when they left home, it is clear that there is something seriously wrong with the timeline.-\nWolfe says it was a \"real ghost\". Well, the Raja during spirit travel IS a real ghost (meeting the Raja's definition of one): He is a disembodied spirit of a person who has died.\nReasons people don't like this:\n \nI think the main one that bugs people is that it means that Silk mistook himself 20 years later for Pike. I don't have a problem with this at all. It works just fine with me. But considering the insufficiency of all the other explanations, and that this is the only one that causes the event to be part of the general narrative, rather than a bizarre \"one off\". I think readers are compelled to accept that Pike's ghost was the Raja and to grapple with Silk's misapprehension however they will.\n \nJ\n \n----- Original Message ----- \n\nFrom: Dave Tallman \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net \nSent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:35 PM\nSubject: (urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike\n\nWith what we know about the inhumi, Mucor, and astral projection from the BotSS, we can revisit the sequence leading to the appearance of Pike's ghost in LotLS.[..]5) What caused the creaking of the bed? Why did Patera Pike's ghost appear?Wolfe said in an question-and-answer session (http://www.ansible.co.uk/cc/cc77.html) that the apparition was not machine-made. That eliminates the Hierodule-created-aquastor theory and the Mainframe-generated-ghost theory, in spite of the shimmering disappearance. He also said it was not Quetzal. Inhumi don't seem to be able to impersonate other people (only make themselves look human) so I think any other inhumi is also out. Silk astral-projecting through time would also not look enough like Pike to be mistaken for him by Silk, who knew the man well. The most likely case is a real ghost.There are two possible explanations for the ghost. The simplest is that the presence of Mucor stirred up Pike's ghost. He appeared in his bedroom first, then went to check to see if Silk was all right (moving through the closed door). He found his calotte there and put it on. With the solid cap on, he had to open the door to get out. When he saw that Silk was all right, he smiled, waved, and vanished. There is a real connection between the calotte and Mucor, since Silk wore it on the raid on Blood's house and therefore in the presence of Mucor.The second explanation is more complicated but I like it better. I think Quetzal was there that night, wanting to attack Silk. Sphigxday night was the night after Teasel was bitten. Quetzal could have returned for more blood and found the names of Silk and Pike written outside the window. Quetzal said that he \"went wide\" when he saw Silk's name on the fifth floor of a building. Silk had to climb four flights of stairs to get to Teasel's room." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-18T02:54:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedro says:\n\"1) Oreb in Astral form was always like a small boy with feathers. He is ALWAYS like that because the astral form shows how a person's spirit \"is\". For example Silkhorn says, when he sees Babbie in astral form for the first time, that he was curious to see how much \"human\" babbie was. This does not agree well with seeying Oreb in astral form as he is in the real world.\"\n\nMarc responds:\n\"Oreb appears as a human spirit because he is embued with scylla\"\n\nI say:\nMarc is right. Oreb appears as part human when he is possessed. And IIRC his looks change during the various spirit travel episodes. Furthermore, there is frankly no other explanation for the ghost-Oreb event except for Silk's rationalization which, aside from being totally contrary to the described event, is negated by Wolfe's M.O. of having \"rational explanations\" be always wrong.\n\nPedro says: \n\"2) There's nothing in Wolfe's Solar Cycle that goes against a ghost having physical form capable of interacting with objects. In fact there are plenty of examples on \"gothic stories\" in which ghosts do have physical presence and can interact with physical objects. \"\n\nI say:\nNot like this....except maybe in Abbot & Costello's \"Hold That Ghost\". The event is way too playful --even corny-- and, anyway, if the ghost is Pike (in the way Silk believes it is) it has zero narrative significance in anyway that anyone has explained so far.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<48D23D4E.4060703@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-09-18T11:36:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "<67370ACDB5594FD7BB8CB3FA5E7EFFF7@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James,\n\nI actually did note that theory in my post, very briefly, as dismissed \nit as follows:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk astral-projecting through time would also not look enough\nlike Pike to be mistaken for him by Silk, who knew the man well. The most\nlikely case is a real ghost." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps I was too hasty. We have evidence that an astral-projecting Silk \ncan be mistaken for other people if their minds are prepared by memories \nand pre-suppositions. Severian mistook him for the ghost of Malrubius, \neven though Sev knew the other man well as his teacher. Silk was \nprepared to see Patera Pike because of the memories stirred up by the \ncreaking of Pike's bed, so he too could have been mistaken.\n\nThe explanation that the flying Oreb was also an astral projection is a \ngood one. Oreb appeared smaller and more bird-like without Scylla, as we \nsee in RttW when Scylla separated herself from him.\n\nThere's another odd case -- in IGG when Silk/Horn first visited Green in \nastral form, the enslaved Auk seemed to recognize him, saying \"You'd \nbetter beat the hoof, Patera.\" He shouldn't have looked enough like Silk \nat that stage to be instantly recognizable. Perhaps his astral-form \nclothing was an auger's garment, and Auk just called him Patera because \nof that. It could also be Auk's power to understand how things work when \nhe sees them -- the explanation I used for Auk's unexpected ability to \nastral-project himself.\n\nMuch of my earlier post was devoted to the presence of Quetzal, a theory \nwhich I now believe is wrong. When Quetzal told Remora about the \nincident where he \"went wide\" he said it happened \"yesterday.\" He didn't \nexpect Remora to understand him so he had no reason to lie. The timing \nof a re-visit to Teasel can be no earlier than Molpesday night, long \nafter the Pike apparition. Before Quetzal saw that writing on the wall \nhe would have no reason to attack Silk, even if the inhumi did kill Pike \n(which I still think is plausible)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave,\n\nI'm coming very late to this, but no one ever responded to your original post.\n\nI find it interesting that you specifically noted the additional understanding to be gained from tBotSS regarding Pike's ghost yet failed to note another fairly obvious explaination which I suggest you consider: that the Pike's ghost was the Raja (aka Silkhorn) in spirit-travel.\n\nReasons for believing this:\n\n 1.. The appearance of a second Oreb with a healed wing which faded away as he flew off.\n -\n 2.. The ghost interacts with Pike's callotte which drops to the floor after he fades. This is behavior very unlike a gothic ghost, but comports well with the physics of a spirit-traveling person.\n -\n 3.. Yes, this would mean that a spirit-traveller would have to be able to travel in time as well. But there are many reasons to be convinced that this is so. The grandmother (in In Green's Jungles IIRC) ends her story with a description of the Raja and Oreb standing by a grave. The easiest explanation of this is that the Raja heard the grandmother's story and was prompted to go back in Time and do it. And in RttW, when Horn's sons describe when they left home, it is clear that there is something seriously wrong with the timeline.\n -\n 4.. Wolfe says it was a \"real ghost\". Well, the Raja during spirit travel IS a real ghost (meeting the Raja's definition of one): He is a disembodied spirit of a person who has died.\nReasons people don't like this:\n\nI think the main one that bugs people is that it means that Silk mistook himself 20 years later for Pike. I don't have a problem with this at all. It works just fine with me. But considering the insufficiency of all the other explanations, and that this is the only one that causes the event to be part of the general narrative, rather than a bizarre \"one off\". I think readers are compelled to accept that Pike's ghost was the Raja and to grapple with Silk's misapprehension however they will.\n\nJ\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-18T13:11:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc and James:\n \n1) You're right. I remember now that when Scylla separates from Oreb in Red Sun Whorl he becomes more like a normal bird.\n \n2) I still think that just by itself the theory that \"real\" ghosts cannot interact with physical objects is fleamsy (or whatever is the correct word in english). Although the physical body is dead they are still the spirit of a beying, just like in the case of astral projection, so its possible that in this \"universe\" ghosts can become more material. HornSilk is very clear on that point, if I remember correctly. When SilkHorn is at the tomb of Scylla it seems that both he and Hide tend to become less material unless they are interacting with the world, or so Hide tells us, for example. Anyway, this does not mean that both Marc and James are wrong on this point. I'm just pointing out that I think this is a weak argument just by itself.\n \nI'd like to point out that I'm not averse to to the idea that astral travel can be done both in space and time in the books. Your arguments are pretty solid and I don't remember anything against it in the books. I was just pointing out some things for you to consider in your arguments and in one of them I was shown to be incorrect. The other one I'm not convinced but it doesn't contradict your ideas anyway. \n \nI'll take the oportunity to put some questions of my own here, if you don't mind and could be so kind as to give me some imput:\n \n1) I remember Horn mentioning the beast with three horns in IGJ. When did Horn get into Babbie?\n \n2) I always thought that the Red Sun Scylla was the daughter of Typhon having become one of the sea monsters, maybe transforming itself like Baldanders is supposed to become and as is suggested for other creatures in BotNS. But in RttW we are shown that she died young (killed by Typhon for her revolt when still very young?) If that is the case, how did the Red Sun sea monster Scylla came about? It seems then that Typhon's daughter, as part of the plot against him, had as her main contact the sea monster Scylla instead and not that she became that same Scylla. When she was uploaded she could have chosen the name Scylla as a kind of nod to her \"master\". This seams to be more correct than. After all there seems to be some kind of connection between the sea monster Scylla from Red Sun and the \"Mother\" from Short Sun. \n \nPedro\n\n\n\nFrom: crushtv at gmail.comTo: urth at lists.urth.netDate: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:54:17 -0500Subject: Re: (urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike\n\n\n\nPedro says:\"1) Oreb in Astral form was always like a small boy with feathers. He is ALWAYS like that because the astral form shows how a person's spirit \"is\". For example Silkhorn says, when he sees Babbie in astral form for the first time, that he was curious to see how much \"human\" babbie was. This does not agree well with seeying Oreb in astral form as he is in the real world.\"\n \nMarc responds:\n\"Oreb appears as a human spirit because he is embued with scylla\"\n \nI say:\nMarc is right. Oreb appears as part human when he is possessed. And IIRC his looks change during the various spirit travel episodes. Furthermore, there is frankly no other explanation for the ghost-Oreb event except for Silk's rationalization which, aside from being totally contrary to the described event, is negated by Wolfe's M.O. of having \"rational explanations\" be always wrong.\nPedro says: \"2) There's nothing in Wolfe's Solar Cycle that goes against a ghost having physical form capable of interacting with objects. In fact there are plenty of examples on \"gothic stories\" in which ghosts do have physical presence and can interact with physical objects. \"\n \nI say:\nNot like this....except maybe in Abbot & Costello's \"Hold That Ghost\". The event is way too playful --even corny-- and, anyway, if the ghost is Pike (in the way Silk believes it is) it has zero narrative significance in anyway that anyone has explained so far. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<14450.67.142.130.42.1221746327.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-09-18T13:58:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedro writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) I still think that just by itself the theory that \"real\" ghosts cannot\ninteract with physical objects is fleamsy (or whatever is the correct word\nin english)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Flimsy.\n\nThere is a whole class of ghosts that interact with physical objects. They\nare called poltergeists.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-18T14:00:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "<14450.67.142.130.42.1221746327.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the english correction.\n \nI know that, but I was refering to ghosts as portreyed in the Solar Cycle... ;)\n \n \nPedro\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<10615.67.142.130.42.1221746872.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-09-18T14:07:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure.\n\nSorry, I was confused by your saying 'real ghosts', which I took to mean\n'ghosts as people who believe in ghosts in the real world believe they\nbehave'.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for the english correction.\n\nI know that, but I was refering to ghosts as portreyed in the Solar\nCycle... ;)\n\n\nPedro" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:58:47 -0400> From: brunians at brunians.org> To:\nurth at lists.urth.net> Subject: Re: (urth) A second dream team: Mucor,\nOreb, and Pike> > Pedro writes:> > > 2) I still think that just by\nitself the theory that \"real\" ghosts cannot> > interact with physical\nobjects is fleamsy (or whatever is the correct word> > in english).> >\nFlimsy.> > There is a whole class of ghosts that interact with physical\nobjects. They> are called poltergeists.> > > > .> > > >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-18T14:10:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "<10615.67.142.130.42.1221746872.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry!\n \nNo, by \"real ghosts\" I meant spirits of the deseased but WITHIN the context of the Solar Cycle.\n \n \nPedro\n \n \n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1bf4dd40809180906o62078ed6j67bfd9527d78dcb2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-09-18T16:06:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*Pedro* *Periera wrote:\n*" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) I remember Horn mentioning the beast with three horns in IGJ. When did Horn get into Babbie?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Toward the end of OBW, the Rajan was surrounded by inhumi and feared for\nhis life. Soon after this, he met someone in the woods (a Neighbor or the\nOutsider?) and placed his head in his lap as Babbie would. I think that this\nis the point at which part of Horn went into Babbie. It wasn't all of Horn,\njust as the part of Scylla that went into Oreb was not all of her. But it\nwas a piece of himself, intended to preserve his life even if his human body\nwas killed, just as Scylla preserved a part of herself when under attack by\nPas.\n\nIn the next book, the Narrator has become much more Silk-like. After part of\nHorn went into Babbie there was more room for the original personality to\nexpress himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) I always thought that the Red Sun Scylla was the daughter of Typhon having become one of the sea monsters, maybe transforming itself like Baldanders is supposed to become and as is suggested for other creatures in BotNS. But in RttW we are shown that she died young (killed by Typhon for her revolt when still very young?) If that is the case, how did the Red Sun sea monster Scylla came about? It seems then that Typhon's daughter, as part of the plot against him, had as her main contact the sea monster Scylla instead and not that she became that same Scylla. When she was uploaded she could have chosen the name Scylla as a kind of nod to her \"master\". This seams to be more correct than. After all there seems to be some kind of connection between the sea monster Scylla from Red Sun and the \"Mother\" from Short Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never imagined that interpretation. I thought Scylla was one of the\nextraterrestrial Megatherian monsters that came to Urth along with Abaia and\nothers. Princess Cilinia, daughter of Typhon, allied herself with this\nmonster (probably in a plot to overthrow her father). She took the god-name\nof Scylla for her uploaded personality probably to honor her \"master\" as you\nsuggest. Baldanders is a very special case -- I don't know if we have\nevidence of any other human becoming an immortal water-dwelling giant.\nBaldanders had to invent the technology for this himself. It wouldn't have\nbeen available to Cilinia.\n\nBack on the main subject, there's one more clue about Pike's ghost that I\njust noticed. Silk selected the calotte for his burglary mission because it\nwould \"supply a certain concealment\" even if his straw hat blew off. Unlike\nthe typical clerical skullcaps of our world, the calotte must have projected\nout above his forehead and cast the upper part of his face into shadow\n(under certain lighting conditions, such as being seen from below at the top\nof the stairs).\n\nThe \"ghost\" didn't speak; it only waved and vanished. The motive for wearing\nthe calotte might have been disguise, in order to create the impression of\nPatera Pike that Silk remembered. If the only reason for going was that\nmemory, then we have a pure causality paradox. But there were probably other\nreasons, such as intimidating Mucor before she did some mischief. It's\ninteresting that she never tried to possess Silk himself. It may be the\nastral projection of the future Silk and Oreb scared her away from trying\nthis." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-18T16:26:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "<1bf4dd40809180906o62078ed6j67bfd9527d78dcb2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) Yes, I remember now. That makes sense. But the part still in the body would have to remain in contact with that \"piece\" of himself in babie or the \"piece\" would have to return to his human body later on, or else how would he write about it? Probably it was only a temporary phenomena, and that's why he says that he rode a beast\nwith 3 horns. He rode, but not anymore.\n \n2) I guess I was under the wrong impression. What you say makes sense. None of the monstrosities seem to have been humans in the past. The Megatherians seem to be the 17 creatures behind the Ascians and who are refered to in the book \"lives of the seventeen megatherians\". That would explain \nvery well the existance of other creatures like that, including \"The Mother\". \n \nThank you!\n \nPedro\n\n\n\nDate: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:06:23 -0600From: davetallman at msn.comTo: urth at lists.urth.netSubject: Re: (urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike\n\nPedro Periera wrote:\n1) I remember Horn mentioning the beast with three horns in IGJ. When did Horn get into Babbie?\n Toward the end of OBW, the Rajan was surrounded by inhumi and feared for his life. Soon after this, he met someone in the woods (a Neighbor or the Outsider?) and placed his head in his lap as Babbie would. I think that this is the point at which part of Horn went into Babbie. It wasn't all of Horn, just as the part of Scylla that went into Oreb was not all of her. But it was a piece of himself, intended to preserve his life even if his human body was killed, just as Scylla preserved a part of herself when under attack by Pas.In the next book, the Narrator has become much more Silk-like. After part of Horn went into Babbie there was more room for the original personality to express himself.\n 2) I always thought that the Red Sun Scylla was the daughter of Typhon having become one of the sea monsters, maybe transforming itself like Baldanders is supposed to become and as is suggested for other creatures in BotNS. But in RttW we are shown that she died young (killed by Typhon for her revolt when still very young?) If that is the case, how did the Red Sun sea monster Scylla came about? It seems then that Typhon's daughter, as part of the plot against him, had as her main contact the sea monster Scylla instead and not that she became that same Scylla. When she was uploaded she could have chosen the name Scylla as a kind of nod to her \"master\". This seams to be more correct than. After all there seems to be some kind of connection between the sea monster Scylla from Red Sun and the \"Mother\" from Short Sun. \nI never imagined that interpretation. I thought Scylla was one of the extraterrestrial Megatherian monsters that came to Urth along with Abaia and others. Princess Cilinia, daughter of Typhon, allied herself with this monster (probably in a plot to overthrow her father). She took the god-name of Scylla for her uploaded personality probably to honor her \"master\" as you suggest. Baldanders is a very special case -- I don't know if we have evidence of any other human becoming an immortal water-dwelling giant. Baldanders had to invent the technology for this himself. It wouldn't have been available to Cilinia.Back on the main subject, there's one more clue about Pike's ghost that I just noticed. Silk selected the calotte for his burglary mission because it would \"supply a certain concealment\" even if his straw hat blew off. Unlike the typical clerical skullcaps of our world, the calotte must have projected out above his forehead and cast the upper part of his face into shadow (under certain lighting conditions, such as being seen from below at the top of the stairs).The \"ghost\" didn't speak; it only waved and vanished. The motive for wearing the calotte might have been disguise, in order to create the impression of Patera Pike that Silk remembered. If the only reason for going was that memory, then we have a pure causality paradox. But there were probably other reasons, such as intimidating Mucor before she did some mischief. It's interesting that she never tried to possess Silk himself. It may be the astral projection of the future Silk and Oreb scared her away from trying this." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-19T00:19:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pedro says: \n2) I guess I was under the wrong impression. What you say makes sense. None of the monstrosities seem to have been humans in the past. The Megatherians seem to be the 17 creatures behind the Ascians and who are refered to in the book \"lives of the seventeen megatherians\". That would explain \nvery well the existance of other creatures like that, including \"The Mother\". \n\nI say:\nCilicia was an agent for Scylla the Megatherian. She was a traitor against her father. When her personality was deified on the Whorl, she gave it the name Scylla and accepted lordship of the sea in honor of her mistress. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-19T13:45:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's my opinion too. I don't know where I got the idea that Great Scylla had been Cilicia and that was confusing me. Need to re-read the books some of these days.\n \nPedro\n\n\n\nFrom: crushtv at gmail.comTo: urth at lists.urth.netDate: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 19:19:35 -0500Subject: Re: (urth) A second dream team: Mucor, Oreb, and Pike\n\n\n\nPedro says: 2) I guess I was under the wrong impression. What you say makes sense. None of the monstrosities seem to have been humans in the past. The Megatherians seem to be the 17 creatures behind the Ascians and who are refered to in the book \"lives of the seventeen megatherians\". That would explain very well the existance of other creatures like that, including \"The Mother\". \nI say:\nCilicia was an agent for Scylla the Megatherian. She was a traitor against her father. When her personality was deified on the Whorl, she gave it the name Scylla and accepted lordship of the sea in honor of her mistress. " } ] } ] }