{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5132", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5132, "subject": "New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "messages": 47, "voices": 22, "first": "2008-08-21T02:38:38+00:00", "last": "2008-09-05T12:11:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<44fb53d10808201938l5b1bd26cq1f1bb3507b4e9f38@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-21T02:38:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "According to Amazon, there's a new Gene Wolfe collection coming March 2009 -\nThe Best of Gene Wolfe: A Definitive Retrospective of His Finest Short\nFiction. 544 pages, apparently. Anyone have further details on this? I\nprobably already own most of the stories in this collection, but I'm enough\nof a Wolfe fan that I'll buy it anyway. I gather I'm not alone in this?\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370808202052i13c02b4bgbfa1350f5347fc2b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-21T03:52:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10808201938l5b1bd26cq1f1bb3507b4e9f38@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sigh. If it has just one story I haven't got ... maybe something\nfrom Bibliomen or Plan(e)t Engineering ... I'll doubtless buy it..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Matthew Keeley\nwrote:\nAccording to Amazon, there's a new Gene Wolfe collection coming March 2009\n- The Best of Gene Wolfe: A Definitive Retrospective of His Finest Short\nFiction. 544 pages, apparently. Anyone have further details on this? I\nprobably already own most of the stories in this collection, but I'm enough\nof a Wolfe fan that I'll buy it anyway. I gather I'm not alone in this?\n\n-Matt\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-21T14:16:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370808202052i13c02b4bgbfa1350f5347fc2b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "+1" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 10:52 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nSigh. If it has just one story I haven't got ... maybe something\nfrom Bibliomen or Plan(e)t Engineering ... I'll doubtless buy it...\n\nOn Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Matthew Keeley \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "According to Amazon, there's a new Gene Wolfe collection coming March 2009\n- The Best of Gene Wolfe: A Definitive Retrospective of His Finest Short\nFiction. 544 pages, apparently. Anyone have further details on this? I\nprobably already own most of the stories in this collection, but I'm enough\nof a Wolfe fan that I'll buy it anyway. I gather I'm not alone in this?\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10808210910u6fc59ddche0a9428631e4d3a1@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-21T16:10:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From Tor's Spring 2009 catalog:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"From a literary perspective, this will certainly be the best\ncollection of the year in science fiction and fantasy. Gene\nWolfe, of whom the Washington Post said, \"Of all SF writers\ncurrently active none is held in higher esteem,\" has selected\nthe short fiction he considers his finest into one volume.\nThere are many award winners and many that have been selected\nfor various Year's Best anthologies among the thirty-one stories,\nwhich include:\"Petting Zoo,\" \"The Tree Is My Hat,\" \"The Island\nof Dr. Death and Other Stories,\" \"The Hero as Werewolf,\" \"Seven\nAmerican Nights,\" \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus,\" \"The Detective\nof Dreams,\" and \"A Cabin on the Coast.\"\nGene Wolfe has produced possibly the finest and most significant\nbody of short fiction in the SF and fantasy field in the last\nfifty years, and is certainly among the greatest living writers to\nemerge from the genres.\nThis is the first retrospective collection of his entire career.\nIt is for the ages.\"\n\nhttp://us.macmillan.com/splash/catalogs/tor_winter09.pdf\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370808211001v32f67159g4337b1c29128cd9@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-21T17:01:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10808210910u6fc59ddche0a9428631e4d3a1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Matthew Keeley\nwrote:\nGene Wolfe has produced possibly the finest and most significant\nbody of short fiction in the SF and fantasy field in the last\nfifty years," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Given that the fifty years in question includes, among other things, the\ncomplete\ncareers of Roger Zelazny -- and whatever you say about Amber, he was a\nmaster\nof the short story -- Joanna Russ, and Harlan Ellison -- not to mention the\nlate\ncareer of Ted Sturgeon -- I think Tor may be overreacihng just a *wee* bit\nhere." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant\nand, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and\na bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Crossley", "address": "ishmael at drizzle.com" }, "date": "2008-08-21T17:16:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370808211001v32f67159g4337b1c29128cd9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/21/08 10:01 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\nOn Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Matthew Keeley \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gene Wolfe has produced possibly the finest and most significant\nbody of short fiction in the SF and fantasy field in the last\nfifty years, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Given that the fifty years in question includes, among other things, the\ncomplete\ncareers of Roger Zelazny -- and whatever you say about Amber, he was a master\nof the short story -- Joanna Russ, and Harlan Ellison -- not to mention the\nlate \ncareer of Ted Sturgeon -- I think Tor may be overreacihng just a *wee* bit\nhere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it overreaching? They did say “possibly,” after all.\n\nInteresting that the ToC seems to include “Fifth Head of Cerberus.” It can\nstand alone, I suppose, but it’s almost infinitely richer in the context of\nthe book.\n\nJames" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10808211027l1f689becje6c329426f8b180b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-21T17:27:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370808211001v32f67159g4337b1c29128cd9@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Given that the fifty years in question includes, among other things, the\ncomplete\ncareers of Roger Zelazny -- and whatever you say about Amber, he was a\nmaster\nof the short story -- Joanna Russ, and Harlan Ellison -- not to mention the\nlate\ncareer of Ted Sturgeon -- I think Tor may be overreacihng just a *wee* bit\nhere.\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And then there's that Lafferty guy everyone around here tells me to read...\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11327.72.171.0.146.1219339963.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-08-21T17:32:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10808211027l1f689becje6c329426f8b180b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And then there's Swanwick....\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Given that the fifty years in question includes, among other things,\nthe\ncomplete\ncareers of Roger Zelazny -- and whatever you say about Amber, he was a\nmaster\nof the short story -- Joanna Russ, and Harlan Ellison -- not to mention\nthe\nlate\ncareer of Ted Sturgeon -- I think Tor may be overreacihng just a *wee*\nbit\nhere.\n\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And then there's that Lafferty guy everyone around here tells me to\nread...\n\n-Matt\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48ADA73D.3040301@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-08-21T17:34:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10808211027l1f689becje6c329426f8b180b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Keeley wrote:\nAnd then there's that Lafferty guy everyone around here tells me to read..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Robert Aickman, Kelly Link, Ted Chiang, and the late great Thomas M. \nDisch." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0808211108u1ab3299ese281ecf0d3ecac98@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-21T18:08:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10808201938l5b1bd26cq1f1bb3507b4e9f38@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What would your personal Best of Gene Wolfe's Short Fiction anthology\ncontain? I would include all the novellas from The Island of Doctor\nDeath and Other Stories and Other Stories." } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10808211145l5e9130bcs984a16e8704590fb@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-21T18:45:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0808211108u1ab3299ese281ecf0d3ecac98@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Matthew Groves ", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-08-21T19:22:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10808210910u6fc59ddche0a9428631e4d3a1@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings:\n\nI posted a question at Tor's \"community\" site in their \"forums\". Hopefully we'll get a definitive (har har har, do ya smoke it?) answer from the editor of the book.\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III\n\"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Thu, 8/21/08, Matthew Keeley wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Matthew Keeley \nSubject: Re: (urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, August 21, 2008, 12:10 PM\nFrom Tor's Spring 2009 catalog:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"From a literary perspective, this will certainly be the best\ncollection of the year in science fiction and fantasy. Gene\nWolfe, of whom the Washington Post said, \"Of all SF writers\ncurrently active none is held in higher esteem,\" has selected\nthe short fiction he considers his finest into one volume.\nThere are many award winners and many that have been selected\nfor various Year's Best anthologies among the thirty-one stories,\nwhich include:\"Petting Zoo,\" \"The Tree Is My Hat,\" \"The Island\nof Dr. Death and Other Stories,\" \"The Hero as Werewolf,\" \"Seven\nAmerican Nights,\" \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus,\" \"The Detective\nof Dreams,\" and \"A Cabin on the Coast.\"\nGene Wolfe has produced possibly the finest and most significant\nbody of short fiction in the SF and fantasy field in the last\nfifty years, and is certainly among the greatest living writers to\nemerge from the genres.\nThis is the first retrospective collection of his entire career.\nIt is for the ages.\"\n\nhttp://us.macmillan.com/splash/catalogs/tor_winter09.pdf\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48ADC1EF.2010508@doubtfulpalace.com>", "from": { "name": "Tim Walters", "address": "walters at doubtfulpalace.com" }, "date": "2008-08-21T19:28:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10808211145l5e9130bcs984a16e8704590fb@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Forlesen\" immediately springs to mind." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370808211349j55d152d2m744189c669f8a885@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-21T20:49:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0808211108u1ab3299ese281ecf0d3ecac98@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Matthew Groves <\nmatthewalangroves at gmail.com> wrote:\nWhat would your personal Best of Gene Wolfe's Short Fiction anthology\ncontain? I would include all the novellas from The Island of Doctor\nDeath and Other Stories and Other Stories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would certainly include the Archipelagan stories from that collection, as\nwell as \"Seven\nAmerican Nights,\" \"Three Fingers,\" \"Feather Tigers,\" and \"Tracking Song.\"\n\nI would also include \"The Detective of Dreams,\" \"Forlesen,\" \"The Cat,\" \"St\nBrendan,\" \"La Befana,\" \"Westwind,\" \"In Looking-Glass Castle,\" \"A Solar\nLabyrinth,\" \"The Last Thrilling Wonder Story,\" \"Suzanne Delage,\" \"The Tale\nof the Rose and the Nightingale,\" \"Bluesberry Jam,\" \"The Ziggurat,\" \"Ain't\nYou Most Done?\", \"The Tree is My Hat,\" \"Under Hill,\" \"The Walking Sticks,\"\n\"The Dog of the Drops,\" \"Rattler,\" \"Petting Zoo,\" \"Copperhead,\" and \"The\nArimispian Legacy.\"\n\nThis is already probably too long..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant\nand, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and\na bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0808211354k5977f6aeu187d4976af4eb3cc@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-21T20:54:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370808211349j55d152d2m744189c669f8a885@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd add \"Queen\" and \"Slow Children at Play.\" At least." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/21/08, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Matthew Groves\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What would your personal Best of Gene Wolfe's Short Fiction anthology\ncontain? I would include all the novellas from The Island of Doctor\nDeath and Other Stories and Other Stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would certainly include the Archipelagan stories from that collection, as\nwell as \"Seven\nAmerican Nights,\" \"Three Fingers,\" \"Feather Tigers,\" and \"Tracking Song.\"\n\nI would also include \"The Detective of Dreams,\" \"Forlesen,\" \"The Cat,\" \"St\nBrendan,\" \"La Befana,\" \"Westwind,\" \"In Looking-Glass Castle,\" \"A Solar\nLabyrinth,\" \"The Last Thrilling Wonder Story,\" \"Suzanne Delage,\" \"The Tale\nof the Rose and the Nightingale,\" \"Bluesberry Jam,\" \"The Ziggurat,\" \"Ain't\nYou Most Done?\", \"The Tree is My Hat,\" \"Under Hill,\" \"The Walking Sticks,\"\n\"The Dog of the Drops,\" \"Rattler,\" \"Petting Zoo,\" \"Copperhead,\" and \"The\nArimispian Legacy.\"\n\nThis is already probably too long...\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant\nand, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and\na bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<49579.68.186.47.210.1219355044.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-08-21T21:44:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<48ADC1EF.2010508@doubtfulpalace.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Against The Lafayette Escadrille\"\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Forlesen\" immediately springs to mind.\n\n--\n\nTim Walters | The Doubtful Palace | http://doubtfulpalace.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<80412.64507.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-08-22T01:11:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0808211108u1ab3299ese281ecf0d3ecac98@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All of the stories from the Wonders of Urth and Sky.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote: \nWhat would your personal Best of Gene Wolfe's Short Fiction anthology\ncontain? I would include all the novellas from The Island of Doctor\nDeath and Other Stories and Other Stories.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48AE194C.8050203@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvêa", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2008-08-22T01:41:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<80412.64507.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What would your personal Best of Gene Wolfe's Short Fiction anthology\ncontain? I would include all the novellas from The Island of Doctor\nDeath and Other Stories and Other Stories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm, an interesting exercise, this. I'd probably favor the shorter \nstories so that I could fit more of them in. Let's see:\n\nForlesen\nThe Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories\nHow the Whip Came Back\nA Cabin on the Coast\nParkroads\nA Solar Labyrinth\nWestwind\nThe Detective of Dreams\nQueen\nThe Hero as Werwolf\nHow I Lost the Second World War and Helped Turn Back the German Invasion\nIn Looking-Glass Castle\nLa Befana\nThe War Beneath the Tree\nNo Planets Strike\nOur Neighbour by David Copperfield\nWhen I Was Ming the Merciless\nThe Toy Theater\n...\n\nNaah, it's hopeless. I like too many of them. And that's mostly sticking \nto the older stories and avoiding all the novellas...\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College Editor, MAA FOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/19/\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n\nWho among us can resist the allure of really funny math puns?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48AE24F5.4080400@tiscali.co.uk>", "from": { "name": "Dave Langridge", "address": "dave.langridge at tiscali.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-08-22T02:31:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Help needed in identifying an author and his books", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi,\n\nsounds a lot like Edward Whittemore's Jerusalem quartet.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Whittemore\n\nDave." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-22T04:46:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<48AE194C.8050203@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I second \"The Toy Theater\" Fernando. I have always loved that one.\nSomething about it reminds me so much of a Jack Vance story. Maybe that's\nwhy I like it. Another one I would include is \"Game in the Pope's Head\"\njust for sheer creepiness." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:41 PM, \"Fernando Q. Gouv?a\" wrote:\nMatthew Groves wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What would your personal Best of Gene Wolfe's Short Fiction anthology\ncontain? I would include all the novellas from The Island of Doctor\nDeath and Other Stories and Other Stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmmm, an interesting exercise, this. I'd probably favor the shorter stories\nso that I could fit more of them in. Let's see:\n\nForlesen\nThe Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories\nHow the Whip Came Back\nA Cabin on the Coast\nParkroads\nA Solar Labyrinth\nWestwind\nThe Detective of Dreams\nQueen\nThe Hero as Werwolf\nHow I Lost the Second World War and Helped Turn Back the German Invasion\nIn Looking-Glass Castle\nLa Befana\nThe War Beneath the Tree\nNo Planets Strike\nOur Neighbour by David Copperfield\nWhen I Was Ming the Merciless\nThe Toy Theater\n...\n\nNaah, it's hopeless. I like too many of them. And that's mostly sticking to\nthe older stories and avoiding all the novellas...\n\nFernando\n\n--\n=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College Editor, MAA FOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/19/\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea \n\nWho among us can resist the allure of really funny math puns?\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000901c9041b$4db4ea60$dccf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-08-22T05:52:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0808211108u1ab3299ese281ecf0d3ecac98@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I note that in these lists of named stories, those mentioned most often and\nindeed the majority of selections come from Wolfe's earliest collections.\nNot many stories from his last three collections are chosen, or even stories\npublished in the last ten years or so. With a few exceptions, not many of\nthese newer stories have even received much discussion around here. Now why\nshould that be?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48AE7C15.4040206@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-08-22T08:43:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<000901c9041b$4db4ea60$dccf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI note that in these lists of named stories, those mentioned most often and\nindeed the majority of selections come from Wolfe's earliest collections.\nNot many stories from his last three collections are chosen, or even stories\npublished in the last ten years or so. With a few exceptions, not many of\nthese newer stories have even received much discussion around here. Now why\nshould that be?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the quality of Wolfe's writing has gone down, but perhaps \nhe has toned down the puzzle elements in his later stories so there is \nless for us to discuss. Another possibility is that the high-quality \ndiscussions in the old archives inspire us to appreciate those stories \nmore, so we just need to initiate new discussions.\n\nHere are some stories I like from the later collections which I think \nmerit more discussion:\nIn Glory Like Their Star (2001)\n From the Cradle (2002)\nOf Soil and Climate (2004)\nMute (2002)\nCastaway (2003)\nHunter Lake (2003)\nThe Seraph From Its Sepulcher (1991)\nGolden City Far (2004)\nThe Tree is My Hat (1999)\nThe Waif (2001)\nA Fish Story (1999)\nThe Wrapper (1998)\nThe Walking Sticks (1999)\nPocketsful of Diamonds (2000)\nCopperhead (2001)\nCounting Cats in Zanzibar (1996)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<80429.85576.qm@web83714.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-08-22T19:48:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of my favorite Wolfe stories is \"How the Whip\nCame Back.\" Domestic strife results in the\nre-introduction of slavery." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- aaron wrote:\nI second \"The Toy Theater\" Fernando. I have always\nloved that one.\nSomething about it reminds me so much of a Jack\nVance story. Maybe that's\nwhy I like it. Another one I would include is \"Game\nin the Pope's Head\"\njust for sheer creepiness.\n\nOn Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:41 PM, \"Fernando Q.\nGouv?a\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What would your personal Best of Gene Wolfe's\nShort Fiction anthology\ncontain? I would include all the novellas from\nThe Island of Doctor\nDeath and Other Stories and Other Stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hmmm, an interesting exercise, this. I'd probably\nfavor the shorter stories\nso that I could fit more of them in. Let's see:\n\nForlesen\nThe Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories\nHow the Whip Came Back\nA Cabin on the Coast\nParkroads\nA Solar Labyrinth\nWestwind\nThe Detective of Dreams\nQueen\nThe Hero as Werwolf\nHow I Lost the Second World War and Helped Turn\nBack the German Invasion\nIn Looking-Glass Castle\nLa Befana\nThe War Beneath the Tree\nNo Planets Strike\nOur Neighbour by David Copperfield\nWhen I Was Ming the Merciless\nThe Toy Theater\n...\n\nNaah, it's hopeless. I like too many of them. And\nthat's mostly sticking to\nthe older stories and avoiding all the novellas...\n\nFernando\n\n--" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College Editor, MAA\nFOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA\nReviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 \nhttp://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/19/\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n\n\nWho among us can resist the allure of really funny\nmath puns?\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<341607.84704.qm@web83709.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "John Smith", "address": "jsmith2627 at att.net" }, "date": "2008-08-22T19:48:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of my favorite Wolfe stories is \"How the Whip\nCame Back.\" Domestic strife results in the\nre-introduction of slavery." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- aaron wrote:\nI second \"The Toy Theater\" Fernando. I have always\nloved that one.\nSomething about it reminds me so much of a Jack\nVance story. Maybe that's\nwhy I like it. Another one I would include is \"Game\nin the Pope's Head\"\njust for sheer creepiness.\n\nOn Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:41 PM, \"Fernando Q.\nGouv?a\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "What would your personal Best of Gene Wolfe's\nShort Fiction anthology\ncontain? I would include all the novellas from\nThe Island of Doctor\nDeath and Other Stories and Other Stories." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hmmm, an interesting exercise, this. I'd probably\nfavor the shorter stories\nso that I could fit more of them in. Let's see:\n\nForlesen\nThe Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories\nHow the Whip Came Back\nA Cabin on the Coast\nParkroads\nA Solar Labyrinth\nWestwind\nThe Detective of Dreams\nQueen\nThe Hero as Werwolf\nHow I Lost the Second World War and Helped Turn\nBack the German Invasion\nIn Looking-Glass Castle\nLa Befana\nThe War Beneath the Tree\nNo Planets Strike\nOur Neighbour by David Copperfield\nWhen I Was Ming the Merciless\nThe Toy Theater\n...\n\nNaah, it's hopeless. I like too many of them. And\nthat's mostly sticking to\nthe older stories and avoiding all the novellas...\n\nFernando\n\n--" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College Editor, MAA\nFOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA\nReviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 \nhttp://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/19/\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n\n\nWho among us can resist the allure of really funny\nmath puns?\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-22T20:03:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Help needed in identifying an author and his books", "in_reply_to": "<80429.85576.qm@web83714.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a totally unrelated way to Wolfe I would like to ask for some help from the good people of this list.\n \nI remember reading, a long time ago, about a series of books about which I don't remember the names or the author. I know that the editions in print at the moment at Amazon.com have ilustrations of playing cards in the cover and if I remember correctly they have a grayish background. These novels are somewhat similar to Pynchon's stories. I don't remember details very well, so I may be wrong about what I'm going to say, but if I remember correctly some of them are part of a series and contain some of the following elements:\n \n- a series of characters are playing a card game of which the outcome (if I remember correctly) will have great repercussions in the world\n- one of those characters is immortal (wandering jew?)\n- the card play is taking place somewhere in Jerusalem (or at least part of the book is)\n- lots of historical curiosities, conspiracies, \"pynchonesc\" stuff, etc\n- they are part of a series of books, me thinks\n \nIf I remember correctly, the author also has at least one book (I don't know if its part of the same series) that has a circus in it (chinese?), and ends with a bizarre, graphical description of the lions getting loose and a lot of spectators dying. \n \nCan someaone help me? Thanks in advance!\n \nPedro" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-22T20:19:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Help needed in identifying an author and his books", "in_reply_to": "<48AE24F5.4080400@tiscali.co.uk>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "THAT'S IT!!!\n \nMany thanks! :D\n \n \nPedro\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<48AF3F35.5070404@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-08-22T22:35:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Help needed in identifying an author and his books", "in_reply_to": "<48AE24F5.4080400@tiscali.co.uk>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Langridge wrote:\nHi,\n\nsounds a lot like Edward Whittemore's Jerusalem quartet.\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Whittemore\n\nDave." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your system clock seems to be a bit behind the times, Dave." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<386582.43587.qm@web63906.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-08-23T01:30:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Help needed in identifying an author and his books", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I second the suggestion: Edward Whittemore's Jerusalem Quartet. Relatively recently republished by Old Earth Books, but ALREADY GETTING HARD TO FIND!!!\n\nSo, run to ABE Books and seek ye these volumes.\n\nSee if these help:\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nSearch on the following for \"Whittemore\" and you'll get a couple of good articles:\n\n\n\nI sometimes wonder if it would be worth to examine \"Cordwainer Smith\" (Dr. Paul Anthony Linebarger) vs. Whittemore. Maybe there's a PhD thesis in them there tales...\n\nI'd also recommend the single volume \"Quin's Shanghai Circus\". This was Whittemore's first work and a lot of the \"Quartet\" can be seen in there, in primordial form, so to speak.\n\nF.P. Kiesche III \"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Fri, 8/22/08, Pedro Pereira wrote:\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nSubject: (urth) Help needed in identifying an author and his books\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Friday, August 22, 2008, 4:03 PM\n\n\n\n\n#yiv1842687324 .hmmessage P\n{\nmargin:0px;padding:0px;}\n#yiv1842687324 {\nFONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;}\n\nIn a totally unrelated way to Wolfe I would like to ask for some help from the good people of this list.\n\n\n\nI remember reading, a long time ago, about a series of books about which?I don't remember the names or the author. I know that the editions in print at the moment at Amazon.com have ilustrations of playing cards in the cover and if I remember correctly they have a grayish background. These novels are somewhat similar to Pynchon's stories. I don't remember details very well, so I may be wrong about what I'm going to say, but if I remember correctly some of them are part of a series and contain some of the following elements:\n\n\n\n- a series of characters are playing a card game of which the outcome (if I remember correctly) will have great repercussions in the world\n\n- one of those characters is immortal (wandering jew?)\n\n- the card play is taking place somewhere in Jerusalem (or at least part of the book is)\n\n- lots of historical curiosities, conspiracies, \"pynchonesc\"?stuff, etc\n\n- they are part of a series of books, me thinks\n\n\n\nIf I remember correctly, the author also has at least one book (I don't know if its part of the same series)?that has a circus in it (chinese?), and ends with a bizarre, graphical description of the lions getting loose and a lot of spectators dying. \n\n\n\nCan someaone help me? Thanks in advance!\n\n\n\nPedro\n\nExplore the seven wonders of the world Learn more! " } ] }, { "message_id": "<48B350DE.5070507@comcast.net>", "from": { "name": "jayrwasdf", "address": "jayrwasdf at comcast.net" }, "date": "2008-08-26T00:39:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<341607.84704.qm@web83709.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm a big fan of Silhouette, which I'm always surprised how little it's \nmentioned on this list.\nIn many ways, it's always struck me as one of the creepiest he's done \n(in a good way).\n\nAnd I'd also second the \"all the stories in The Island of Doctor \nDeath...\" comment.\n-j" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Smith wrote:\nOne of my favorite Wolfe stories is \"How the Whip\nCame Back.\" Domestic strife results in the\nre-introduction of slavery.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n--- aaron wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I second \"The Toy Theater\" Fernando. I have always\nloved that one.\nSomething about it reminds me so much of a Jack\nVance story. Maybe that's\nwhy I like it. Another one I would include is \"Game\nin the Pope's Head\"\njust for sheer creepiness.\n\nOn Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:41 PM, \"Fernando Q.\nGouv?a\" wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Matthew Groves wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "What would your personal Best of Gene Wolfe's\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Short Fiction anthology\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "contain? I would include all the novellas from\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Island of Doctor\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Death and Other Stories and Other Stories.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hmmm, an interesting exercise, this. I'd probably\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "favor the shorter stories\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "so that I could fit more of them in. Let's see:\n\nForlesen\nThe Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories\nHow the Whip Came Back\nA Cabin on the Coast\nParkroads\nA Solar Labyrinth\nWestwind\nThe Detective of Dreams\nQueen\nThe Hero as Werwolf\nHow I Lost the Second World War and Helped Turn\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Back the German Invasion\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In Looking-Glass Castle\nLa Befana\nThe War Beneath the Tree\nNo Planets Strike\nOur Neighbour by David Copperfield\nWhen I Was Ming the Merciless\nThe Toy Theater\n...\n\nNaah, it's hopeless. I like too many of them. And\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that's mostly sticking to\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "the older stories and avoiding all the novellas...\n\nFernando\n\n--\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "=============================================================\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Fernando Q. Gouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College Editor, MAA\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "FOCUS\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Reviews\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Waterville, ME 04901 \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/19/\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Who among us can resist the allure of really funny\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "math puns?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "mfstraight at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-03T18:21:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<000901c9041b$4db4ea60$dccf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'll admit to being disappointed by Wolfe's recent short work.\nI don't think there's a single story in Starwater Strains, Innocents\nAboard, or Strange Travelers that I like as much as I like most of the\nstories in Endangered Species, Island of Doctor Death and Other\nStories and Other Stories, or Book of Days. (Storeys from the Old\nHotel is a mix of stories I love and stories I don't.)\n\nI'm not sure why. Too much horror and not enough science fiction?\nI'd have to think about it some more. (And, I'll admit, it wouldn't\nhurt to re-read some of the newer stuff.)\n\nOn the other hand, I continue to love Wolfe's novels. Wizard Knight\nand especially Soldier of Sidon are wonderful.\n\nRostrum" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 11:52 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI note that in these lists of named stories, those mentioned most often and\nindeed the majority of selections come from Wolfe's earliest collections.\nNot many stories from his last three collections are chosen, or even stories\npublished in the last ten years or so. With a few exceptions, not many of\nthese newer stories have even received much discussion around here. Now why\nshould that be?\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-03T18:29:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [] }, { "message_id": "<5183.67.142.130.44.1220467249.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-09-03T18:40:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " There's a few things in the Soldier books that I think may be a\nbit wrong from a historical point of view though. Not really wrong, but\nquestionable at least, but it's minor stuff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Like?\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10809031435p6a80d126w315d8ca9cd513aff@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-03T21:35:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\n I haven't read the Knight books (I'm not much into Arthurian kind of\nstuff), but I totally recomend the Soldier books. I was hopping that Sidon\nwould take Latro to the fabled Egyptian Labirynth; unfortunately it didn't.\nThere's a few things in the Soldier books that I think may be a bit wrong\nfrom a historical point of view though. Not really wrong, but questionable\nat least, but it's minor stuff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I know Wolfe does have some slightly esoteric theories about ancient\nhistory - for one thing, he posits at least occasional transatlantic travel\nin the ancient world. I wonder how many \"errors\" are actually examples of\nWolfe's advocacy for obscure theories.\n\nLink with Wolfe's thoughts on the ancient world:\nhttp://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj3.html#diff\n\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-03T22:04:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<5183.67.142.130.44.1220467249.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember reading some things that didn't strike me as probable. It was a long time ago that I read the books. \n \nOne of the things is the imagery that Wolfe evokes for the legions to which Latro belonged. The most ancient evidence in terms of weapons and organization type that we have for the Republican Legions is from around the Punic Wars, if I'm not mistaken. We do have information on earlier campaigns but no info on organization, equipment, etc. Still Wolfe gives an imagery of eagle standards and legions on the march that evokes too much the perception of what the legions would later become. Of course, we can't say for sure that around 478 BC things were very different, but from the evidence we have there may have not been any \"legions\" at that time the way we usually use the term. I think that it would have been more useful to be a bit more vague in this mater. But again, its a minor thing that is not even \"wrong\" per si.\n \nAnother thing is the name of Latro's sword. Why is Latro's sword called \"falcata\"? Wolfe says that the word was written in the sword, as if it was her name. But since this term designates the type of sword, it makes as much sense as having a sword engraved with the word \"sword\" or \"rapier\" as her name. Not only that but the term \"falcata\" is not even of ancient origin (it was coined by Fernando Fulgosio in 1872 to describe this particular kind of Iberian sword).\n \nAnother thing is the translation of the word \"hoplite\". It doesn't mean \"shield man\" and in fact the word does not derive from \"shield\". This is a misuse of the term that has plagued the academia for a long time and is now beying droped from use. \"Hoplon\", \"hopla\", etc could mean any one part of the equipment (armor) of the hoplite or his equipment (armor) as a whole. A better translation of \"hoplite\" would simply be \"heavily armored infantryman\" instead of the term used in Wolfe (shieldman) which is a wrong interpretation of the ancient greek meaning of the word. But Wolfe ofcourse could not know that since the article that brought the academia's attention to this issue was published after the first books were published. \n \nThis is just some stuff at the top of my head that I remember from reading the books a long time ago. There was some other stuff, but as I said, all this is pretty minor stuff and some of it is discussible and not really a \"mistake\". As I said, the Soldier series is highly recomended and my favorite books after the Solar Cycle.\n \n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-03T22:06:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10809031435p6a80d126w315d8ca9cd513aff@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I read that some time ago. I disagree with his take, but he is free to use that in his books. I don't really consider that kind of stuff errors or historical mistakes. Just an opinion I don't agree with.\n \nPedro\n \n\n\n\nDate: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 17:35:35 -0400From: matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.comTo: urth at lists.urth.netSubject: Re: (urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon\n\nOn Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\n\nI haven't read the Knight books (I'm not much into Arthurian kind of stuff), but I totally recomend the Soldier books. I was hopping that Sidon would take Latro to the fabled Egyptian Labirynth; unfortunately it didn't. There's a few things in the Soldier books that I think may be a bit wrong from a historical point of view though. Not really wrong, but questionable at least, but it's minor stuff.\n\nWell, I know Wolfe does have some slightly esoteric theories about ancient history - for one thing, he posits at least occasional transatlantic travel in the ancient world. I wonder how many \"errors\" are actually examples of Wolfe's advocacy for obscure theories. \n\nLink with Wolfe's thoughts on the ancient world:\nhttp://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj3.html#diff\n\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48BF1014.4030109@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvêa", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2008-09-03T22:30:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember that Wolfe has Latro call Sparta \"Rope\". That's a false \netymology as well, but the idea is that it is one that Latro might have \ncome up with.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pedro Pereira wrote:\nAnother thing is the translation of the word \"hoplite\". It doesn't mean \n\"shield man\" and in fact the word does not derive from \"shield\". This is \na misuse of the term that has plagued the academia for a long time and \nis now beying droped from use. \"Hoplon\", \"hopla\", etc could mean any one \npart of the equipment (armor) of the hoplite or his equipment (armor) as \na whole. A better translation of \"hoplite\" would simply be \"heavily \narmored infantryman\" instead of the term used in Wolfe (shieldman) which \nis a wrong interpretation of the ancient greek meaning of the word. But \nWolfe ofcourse could not know that since the article that brought the \nacademia's attention to this issue was published after the first books \nwere published." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College Editor, MAA FOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/19/\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n\nWe think that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we \nare their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges.\n -- Gene Wolfe, in The Shadow of the Torturer" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-03T22:34:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<48BF1014.4030109@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is certainly true. After all, if most academia researchers have misused the term for such a long time it is certainly possible that Latro could have too. But I think that Wolfe was simply using the meaning that has been erroneously used for a long time in academia. He can't certainly be blamed on that. \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080904002034.VBHB4226.eastrmmtao106.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2008-09-04T00:20:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10809031435p6a80d126w315d8ca9cd513aff@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One thing I recall is that Latro has a night with Venus. Well, he's a \nkind of specimen of Mars, being Roman. But the way it's written is as \nif Venus and Mars were married, and I recall bringing this up to \nWolfe, who thought that they were. In fact, Venus cheats with Mars on \nher husband Vulcan.\n\nBut it's been 20 years......\n\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:35 PM 9/3/2008, you wrote:\nOn Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Pedro Pereira \n<domus_artemis at hotmail.com> wrote:\nI haven't read the Knight books (I'm not much into Arthurian kind of \nstuff), but I totally recomend the Soldier books. I was hopping that \nSidon would take Latro to the fabled Egyptian Labirynth; \nunfortunately it didn't. There's a few things in the Soldier books \nthat I think may be a bit wrong from a historical point of view \nthough. Not really wrong, but questionable at least, but it's minor stuff.\n\n\nWell, I know Wolfe does have some slightly esoteric theories about \nancient history - for one thing, he posits at least occasional \ntransatlantic travel in the ancient world. I wonder how many \n\"errors\" are actually examples of Wolfe's advocacy for obscure theories.\n\nLink with Wolfe's thoughts on the ancient world:\nhttp://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj3.html#diff\n\n\n-Matt\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<12042.67.142.130.34.1220488481.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-09-04T00:34:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You don't think that there was at least occasional transatlantic contact?\nSeriously?\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I read that some time ago. I disagree with his take, but he is free\nto use that in his books. I don't really consider that kind of stuff\nerrors or historical mistakes. Just an opinion I don't agree with.\n\nPedro\n\n\n\n\nDate: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 17:35:35 -0400From: matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.comTo:\nurth at lists.urth.netSubject: Re: (urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon\n\nOn Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Pedro Pereira \nwrote:\n\nI haven't read the Knight books (I'm not much into Arthurian kind of\nstuff), but I totally recomend the Soldier books. I was hopping that Sidon\nwould take Latro to the fabled Egyptian Labirynth; unfortunately it\ndidn't. There's a few things in the Soldier books that I think may be a\nbit wrong from a historical point of view though. Not really wrong, but\nquestionable at least, but it's minor stuff.\n\nWell, I know Wolfe does have some slightly esoteric theories about ancient\nhistory - for one thing, he posits at least occasional transatlantic\ntravel in the ancient world. I wonder how many \"errors\" are actually\nexamples of Wolfe's advocacy for obscure theories.\n\nLink with Wolfe's thoughts on the ancient world:\nhttp://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/gwjbj3.html#diff\n\n\n-Matt\n_________________________________________________________________\nExplore the seven wonders of the world\nhttp://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=7+wonders+world&mkt=en-US&form=QBRE_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48BFCE4B.9040702@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-09-04T12:02:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<12042.67.142.130.34.1220488481.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians wrote:\nYou don't think that there was at least occasional transatlantic contact?\nSeriously?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe once offered evidence for his theory in an interview \n(http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html):\n\nIf you read the anthropologists about the Indians they will tell you the \nIndians did not have the wheel. But they did. The thing is that the only \nwheel that they had was tiny little wheeled toys. A little animal on a \nlittle platform and four wheels. Obviously they did not evolve the \nwheel. They got it from somebody who had already evolved. And this \nsomebody could not put a cart or chariot aboard the ship. It took up too \nmuch room. You could put a hundred little wheeled toys aboard the ship \nand trade them. Right? Well the Indians had never seen anything, well, \ngee that is neat. You can pull it along and it follows the kid around \nand that is a nice trade item and you can carry hundreds of them aboard \nyour Phoenecian ship. And the Indians never got it any farther. They \nwere not able to look at the wheeled toy and say why we can't we make a \nbig one like that? They never took that step." } ] }, { "message_id": "<589960.39263.qm@web63905.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-09-04T12:16:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings:\n\n\"A better translation of \"hoplite\" would simply be \"heavily armored\ninfantryman\" instead of the term used in Wolfe (shieldman) which is a\nwrong interpretation of the ancient greek meaning of the word.\"\n\nDon't know where I got it from, maybe from playing wargames sent in ancient Greece, but that is always how I used it (heavily armored infantryman) since the mid-1970's. When did \"academia\" start to drop the term?\n\nF.P. Kiesche III \"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Wed, 9/3/08, Pedro Pereira wrote:\nFrom: Pedro Pereira \nSubject: Re: (urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, September 3, 2008, 6:04 PM\n\n\n\n\n#yiv1301607047 .hmmessage P\n{\nmargin:0px;padding:0px;}\n#yiv1301607047 {\nFONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;}\n\nI remember reading some things that didn't strike me as probable. It was a long time ago that I read the books. \n\n\n\nOne of the things is the imagery that Wolfe evokes for the legions to which Latro belonged. The most ancient evidence in terms of weapons and organization type that we have for the Republican Legions is from around the Punic Wars, if I'm not mistaken. We do have information on earlier campaigns?but no info on organization, equipment, etc. Still Wolfe gives an imagery of eagle standards and legions on the march that evokes too much the perception of what the legions would later become. Of course, we can't say for sure that around 478 BC things were very different, but from the evidence we have there may have not been any \"legions\"?at that time the way we usually use the term. I think that it would have been more useful to be a bit more vague in this mater. But again, its a minor thing that is not even \"wrong\" per si.\n\n\n\nAnother thing is the name of?Latro's sword. Why is Latro's sword called \"falcata\"? Wolfe says that the word was written in the sword, as if it was her name. But since this term designates the type of sword, it makes as much sense as having a sword?engraved with the word?\"sword\" or \"rapier\" as her name. Not only that but the term \"falcata\" is not even of ancient origin (it was coined by Fernando Fulgosio in 1872 to describe this particular kind of Iberian sword).\n\n\n\nAnother thing is the translation of the word \"hoplite\". It doesn't mean \"shield man\" and in fact the word does not derive from \"shield\". This is a misuse of the term that has plagued the academia for a long time and is now beying droped from use. \"Hoplon\", \"hopla\", etc could mean any one part of the equipment (armor)?of the hoplite or his equipment (armor) as a whole. A better translation of \"hoplite\" would simply be \"heavily armored infantryman\" instead of the term used in Wolfe (shieldman) which is a wrong interpretation of the ancient greek meaning of the word. But Wolfe ofcourse could not know that since the article that brought the academia's attention to this issue was published after the first books were published. \n\n\n\nThis is just some stuff at the top of my head that I remember from reading the books a long time ago. There was some other stuff, but as I said, all this is pretty minor stuff and some of it is discussible and not really a \"mistake\". As I said, the Soldier series is highly recomended and my favorite books after the Solar Cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 14:40:49 -0400\nFrom: brunians at brunians.org\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's a few things in the Soldier books that I think may be a\nbit wrong from a historical point of view though. Not really wrong, but\nquestionable at least, but it's minor stuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Like?\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Explore the seven wonders of the world Learn more! " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5424.72.171.0.139.1220536871.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-09-04T14:01:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<48BFCE4B.9040702@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That and lots of other stuff. Cocaine and nicotine in Egyptian mummies,\nRoman sculptures in Mexico etc.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You don't think that there was at least occasional transatlantic\ncontact?\nSeriously?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe once offered evidence for his theory in an interview\n(http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html):\n\nIf you read the anthropologists about the Indians they will tell you the\nIndians did not have the wheel. But they did. The thing is that the only\nwheel that they had was tiny little wheeled toys. A little animal on a\nlittle platform and four wheels. Obviously they did not evolve the\nwheel. They got it from somebody who had already evolved. And this\nsomebody could not put a cart or chariot aboard the ship. It took up too\nmuch room. You could put a hundred little wheeled toys aboard the ship\nand trade them. Right? Well the Indians had never seen anything, well,\ngee that is neat. You can pull it along and it follows the kid around\nand that is a nice trade item and you can carry hundreds of them aboard\nyour Phoenecian ship. And the Indians never got it any farther. They\nwere not able to look at the wheeled toy and say why we can't we make a\nbig one like that? They never took that step.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-04T14:32:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<12042.67.142.130.34.1220488481.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly, yes, but not on a permanent, constant basis. More like isolated, pontual cases. I do believe there is evidence for early contact, just like eventually the academia had to recognize that the Vikings were in North America well before the the so called \"discoveries\" started by the Portuguese and later by the Spanish. \n \nMost of the cases Wolfe refers I'm not really familiar with them. He talks about the army of Yucatan arranged just like an Assyrian army. I'm not familiar with this so commenting would be folly on my part. But if Wolfe implies Assyrian Armies in the americas I doubt it pretty much. One just have to look at accounts of the Punic Wars to see that even moving a few boats between Sicily and North Africa was a gamble. Almost 50% of the time the fleet would either sank completely or just a few would survive. Compare that with vast, constant expeditions before Christ to the americas and I find it quite unprobable. But I would have to delve deeply into the evidence. \n \nThe nicotine found in mumyes is certainly very compeling evidence of contact. I don't know what the official position regarding that is right now, if any. The roman sculptures in mexico I never heard of. Sounds great. Any links?\n \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1490.72.171.0.139.1220543097.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-09-04T15:44:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Most of the cases Wolfe refers I'm not really familiar with them. He talks\nabout the army of Yucatan arranged just like an Assyrian army. I'm not\nfamiliar with this so commenting would be folly on my part. But if Wolfe\nimplies Assyrian Armies in the americas I doubt it pretty much. One just\nhave to look at accounts of the Punic Wars to see that even moving a few\nboats between Sicily and North Africa was a gamble." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the Romans it was, yes. Was it for the Carthaginians? For the Chinese?\nFor the Japanese? For the Polynesians?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Almost 50% of the time\nthe fleet would either sank completely or just a few would survive.\nCompare that with vast, constant expeditions before Christ to the americas\nand I find it quite unprobable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Compare Olmec jade and Shang jade:\n\nhttp://www.chinese.tcu.edu/www_chinese3_tcu_edu.htm\n\nCompare ancient Japanese and South American pottery:\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=Yrhp8H0_l6MC&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=jomon+and+valdivia&source=web&ots=NI1C2N-wiv&sig=8TrGmzEexjF7xjRWgrNF9b-xAYc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result\n\nThere's really a lot more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " But I would have to delve deeply into the\nevidence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The nicotine found in mumyes is certainly very compeling evidence of\ncontact. I don't know what the official position regarding that is right\nnow, if any." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't matter. The official position is that human beings were hunters\nand gatherers until about ten thousand years ago. This is obviously wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " The roman sculptures in mexico I never heard of. Sounds\ngreat. Any links?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can't find one offhand.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-04T16:17:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<1490.72.171.0.139.1220543097.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For the Romans it was, yes. Was it for the Carthaginians? For the Chinese?> For the Japanese? For the Polynesians?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe Carthaginians had exactely the same problem. As for the Chinese, at what time? If you're refering to the chinese great exploratory and comercial voyages that happened almost around the same time as the european discoveries. Japan is much more proximal to China than a voyage from Assyria to the Americas. Not really comparable at all. As for the Polinesians, I have to check the specifics of the case since I'm not familiar with their history." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Compare Olmec jade and Shang jade:> > http://www.chinese.tcu.edu/www_chinese3_tcu_edu.htm> > Compare ancient Japanese and South American pottery:> > http://books.google.com/books?id=Yrhp8H0_l6MC&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=jomon+and+valdivia&source=web&ots=NI1C2N-wiv&sig=8TrGmzEexjF7xjRWgrNF9b-xAYc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result> > There's really a lot more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThanks for the links, as soon as I can I'll check them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But I would have to delve deeply into the> > evidence.> > Indeed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIndeed, yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The nicotine found in mumyes is certainly very compeling evidence of> > contact. I don't know what the official position regarding that is right> > now, if any.> > It doesn't matter. The official position is that human beings were hunters> and gatherers until about ten thousand years ago. This is obviously wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nObviously wrong? Why? What do you think humans were doing 8.000 years BC that is so \"obvious\"? I'm just curious." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The roman sculptures in mexico I never heard of. Sounds> > great. Any links?> > Can't find one offhand. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nPitty, because I'd love to see those. I'll try to find something on the net as soon as I have some time.\n \nPedro" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bob Miller", "address": "bob_bageera at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-05T11:26:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "<1490.72.171.0.139.1220543097.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One just" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "have to look at accounts of the Punic Wars to see that even moving a few\nboats between Sicily and North Africa was a gamble." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the gamblers sometimes won. I can't help but wonder at the gutsiness of St. Brendan the Voyager who used much more fragile craft for his westerly trips. I do not support the contact theory, but I'm not averse to it either. There definitely is a countercurrent in state of the art." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For the Romans it was, yes. Was it for the Carthaginians? For the Chinese?\nFor the Japanese? For the Polynesians?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Almost 50% of the time\nthe fleet would either sank completely or just a few would survive.\nCompare that with vast, constant expeditions before Christ to the americas\nand I find it quite unprobable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Compare Olmec jade and Shang jade:\n\nhttp://www.chinese.tcu.edu/www_chinese3_tcu_edu.htm\n\nCompare ancient Japanese and South American pottery:\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=Yrhp8H0_l6MC&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=jomon+and+valdivia&source=web&ots=NI1C2N-wiv&sig=8TrGmzEexjF7xjRWgrNF9b-xAYc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result\n\nThere's really a lot more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " But I would have to delve deeply into the\nevidence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The nicotine found in mumyes is certainly very compeling evidence of\ncontact. I don't know what the official position regarding that is right\nnow, if any." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It doesn't matter. The official position is that human beings were hunters\nand gatherers until about ten thousand years ago. This is obviously wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " The roman sculptures in mexico I never heard of. Sounds\ngreat. Any links?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Can't find one offhand.\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-05T12:11:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) New Wolfe Listing on Amazon", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And the gamblers sometimes won. I can't help but wonder at the gutsiness of St. Brendan the Voyager who used much more fragile craft for his westerly trips. I do not support the contact theory, but I'm not averse to it either. There definitely is a countercurrent in state of the art.\"\n \nWell, It could happen. I just think that if it did it was pontual, isolated events, throughout history. But just like you, I don't support the theory that it did, although I won't rule it out completely.\n \nPedro" } ] } ] }