{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5141", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5141, "subject": "Second hand books and Musings", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2008-08-29T13:15:18+00:00", "last": "2008-08-31T15:42:21+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA016C3A4D@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "from": { "name": "O'Donnell, Tim BOSI", "address": "tim.o'donnell at bankofscotland.ie" }, "date": "2008-08-29T13:15:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Second hand books and Musings", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi,\n\nI hope all is well.\n\nLiving as I do in Ireland it can be difficult to get copies of Gene Wolfe's books. So I was delighted today to be able to pick up a copy of Endangered Species as well as\ntwo lovely editions of TSOTT and TSOTL from the 80s in my favourite second hand bookshop. \n\nSo, in celebration I thought I would post two musings I had recently in relation to BOTNS.\n\nThere has been alot of debate on the lists in the last while about the exact moral nature of the Hieros. It occurs to me that an indication of their true nature may be given by the fact that\nbeautiful faces are hidden behind horrible masks (which of course are also hidden behind masks).\n\nThe other thought I had was on Severian's recuperation and his experience with the Ascian in COTA. In this passage (sorry, I don't have the book with me) he mentions how the Ascian is able to \nexpress just about any thought he wishes but also mentions the inherent predictability of much speech in his own language. I wonder if this is commentary by Wolfe on one of his goals in writing?\nIn condensing fact, hiding important revelations in throwaway comments and playing on related words, names and concepts Wolfe shocks the reader out of passive reading. No longer can we\nassume we know how a sentence or piece of dialogue will end, we must interrogate every line and word for its true meaning.\n\nJust some thoughts anyway, fire at will!\n\n\n\n\n\n************************************************************************************************\nFind out more about us at www.bankofscotland.ie \n\nThe information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error or there are any problems please notify the originator immediately. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. This mail and any attachments have been scanned for viruses prior to leaving Bank of Scotland Ireland's network. \nBank of Scotland Ireland will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or as a result of any virus being passed on. Bank of Scotland (Ireland) reserves the right to monitor and record e-mail messages sent to and from this address for the purposes of investigating or detecting any unauthorised use of its system and ensuring its effective operation.\n\nBank of Scotland (Ireland) Limited is part of HBOS plc and is regulated by the Financial Regulator. Registered in Ireland Number: 8454. Registered office: Bank of Scotland House, 124-127 St. Stephens Green, Dublin 2\n\n****************************************************************************************************" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10808291303x5ade8fbcke3e18253dc30706d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-29T20:03:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Second hand books and Musings", "in_reply_to": "<63FB9AC7E0AEC7459DBCC99DC44247CA016C3A4D@BOSIDEXDB.Bankofscotland.ie>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 9:15 AM, O'Donnell, Tim (BOSI) <\nTim.O'Donnell at bankofscotland.ie > wrote:\n Hi,\n\nI hope all is well.\n\nLiving as I do in Ireland it can be difficult to get copies of Gene Wolfe's\nbooks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ireland's wonderful, but it's hardly the place for lupine reading. Are you\nin Dublin by any chance? Shame, if I'd known there were deprived Wolfe\nreaders in Ireland, I could have bought a book or two on one of my\ntransatlantic voyages. Alas, my time in Ireland is done now...\n\nP.S. I think some of the later short story collections (Starwater Strains)\nused to show up in the Dawson St. bookstores (Hodges-Figgis and\nWaterstone's) in Dublin.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48BA96F9.4040307@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-08-31T13:04:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Second hand books and Musings", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10808291303x5ade8fbcke3e18253dc30706d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi Tim, welcome to the discussion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There has been alot of debate on the lists in the last while about the exact moral nature of the Hieros. It occurs to me that an indication of their true nature may be given by the fact that\nbeautiful faces are hidden behind horrible masks (which of course are also hidden behind masks).\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The fact that the Hierodules have beautiful faces under their two masks \ndoesn't really help indicate their true nature, in my opinion. It still \nmakes them ambiguous. They owe their beautiful faces to the \nHierogrammates, who evolved them from marine life. They use hideous \nmasks so that people will fear them and let the autarchs rule, and masks \nover that to make the people believe they want to hide their ugly \nappearance. So there are quite a few levels of deception here.\n\nWe have had extensive debates about the morality of the Hierodules and \nHierogrammates, but I'm not sure we have approached the problem with the \nextra information from the BotLS and BotSS. When Wolfe chose to tie the \nnew series to the old one, he had a second chance to tell us how he \nintended us to see the moral issues in BotNS. Andrew (thalassocrat) had \na theory that Wolfe completely subverted the old series with the new \none. In that view, all of Severian's adventures were against the will of \nGod, and the entry of Silk into his life changed things so that they \nnever happened, reverting history to the do-nothing future of Master \nAsh. I believe that theory has been successfully refuted, and that even \nAndrew doubts it now.\n\nSo what about the opposite theory, that the new series is meant to \nvalidate the old one? Everyone agrees that Silk is good, and it seems \nthat the memories of his visits have influenced the character of the \naquastor Malrubius. Aquastors are not puppets -- what they say and do is \nbased on their beliefs. We know this because the Severian of UotNS is an \naquastor without realizing it. So an endorsement by Malrubius of the \npurposes of the Hierogrammates is to some degree an endorsement by Silk, \nand thus an endorsement by the Outsider.\n\nHierogrammates are \"holy slaves\" trying to do the will of God, even if \nthey can only guess at it. We know from BotSS that demons playing God \n(or Typhon playing Pas) get taken over by the real Outsider. Pas has \nbecome truly good, and the Outsider says that Kypris will as well, \nbecause she is the goddess of love and all love is of God. Wolfe also \nsaid in an interview that \"The Outsider is not a form of Severian. \nSeverian is a form of the Outsider.\" It seems to me that Wolfe holds \nthat those who try to serve God end up doing so, at least in his universe.\n\nOn the matter of the Ascians, I think Wolfe is saying that human \ncreativity will win over any attempt to subvert language. Orewellian \n\"newspeak\" attempted to prevent people from having incorrect thoughts, \nbut Loyal to the Group of Fourteen was still able to express his own \nstory. One does have to parse it carefully to get all the nuances, and \nthat is certainly true of everything that Wolfe writes." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90808310842xcf26b5fs974e688af11d42f8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-08-31T15:42:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Second hand books and Musings", "in_reply_to": "<48BA96F9.4040307@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nHierogrammates are \"holy slaves\" trying to do the will of God, even if they\ncan only guess at it. We know from BotSS that demons playing God (or Typhon\nplaying Pas) get taken over by the real Outsider. Pas has become truly good,\nand the Outsider says that Kypris will as well, because she is the goddess\nof love and all love is of God. Wolfe also said in an interview that \"The\nOutsider is not a form of Severian. Severian is a form of the Outsider.\" It\nseems to me that Wolfe holds that those who try to serve God end up doing\nso, at least in his universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There isn't much use in reiterating my arguments for why the above might not\nbe the case, so I'll settle for pedantically (ah!) pointing out that it's\nthe Hierodules who are \"holy slaves\".\n\nPaul" } ] } ] }