{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5146", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5146, "subject": "OT: Anathem", "messages": 45, "voices": 22, "first": "2008-09-15T02:08:01+00:00", "last": "2008-09-23T04:27:04+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<39ed084f0809141908h4ee0b508oc6c0b1d6baf89abe@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-15T02:08:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's like a cross between Harry Potter and G?del, Escher, Bach." } ] }, { "message_id": "<81c420fa0809150655n78fcb8edy962294747fac784b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Greg Bates", "address": "tedkennedyrolls at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-15T13:55:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0809141908h4ee0b508oc6c0b1d6baf89abe@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been meaning to pick this up at some point. I'll probably end up\ngrabbing it the same day I get An Evil Guest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 10:08 PM, Matthew Groves <\nmatthewalangroves at gmail.com> wrote:\nIt's like a cross between Harry Potter and G?del, Escher, Bach.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10809150841u565213cei1784a5112a21e7dc@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-15T15:41:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<81c420fa0809150655n78fcb8edy962294747fac784b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington Post?\n\nhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html\n\nDirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he says is much\nsuperior.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0809151140h9e0652fjff92ad0cdc6331ff@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-15T18:40:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10809150841u565213cei1784a5112a21e7dc@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mostly I agree with Dirda; however I think I like it considerably better\nthan he does. I admire and approve of Stephenson's project. I suspect\nStephenson really was thinking about the Harry Potter crowd when he wrote\nthis -- some of whom would be approaching the age of the protagonist, Fraa\nErasmus, and his friends. I may be reading too much into the novel, but I\nam convinced that Stephenson was presenting his science-and-math monastery\n(the Mynster) is a counterpoint to the Hogwarts \"school for wizards,\"\nreplacing the realm of wish-fulfillment fantasy with the realm of abstract\ntheories and ideas. (The novel seems to be geared toward a just-post-YA age\ngroup who were thrilled by the steadily increasing page counts of the Harry\nPotter sequels and thus won't be scared off by this 900+ page monster.)\nStephenson is trying to uplift the Harry Potter crowd with a taste of\nphilosophy and science, and offering some positive alternatives\nto the consumer-driven, intellectually barren,\nfundamentalism-spawning culture they've grown up in.\n\nUnfortunately, he's going to lose many of those Harry Potter readers (as he\nnearly lost me), most likely between pp. 12 and 23, in a long description of\nthe Mynster that far outlasts any curiosity you may have developed about the\nplace by this point. It was while slogging through these pages that I kept\nthinking about how Wolfe introduces us to Severian's world and implies all\nsorts of fantastic things about it without interrupting the story to take us\non a walking tour of the citadel and the Matachin Tower, pointing out\ndetails left and right. But that's just the kind of thing Stephenson does\nat several points in *Anathem*, and whereas Wolfe's details are integral to\nthe story, Stephenson's are mostly just flavor.\n\nBut once I forgave Stephenson for not transcending popular fiction with a\nnew *Book of the New Sun*, I started to enjoy *Anathem*. I have more to say\nabout the book, but I'm curious about others' reactions to Anathem.\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Matthew Keeley ", "from": { "name": "Rjyan Kadwallader", "address": "cexwell at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-15T18:54:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0809151140h9e0652fjff92ad0cdc6331ff@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future version of\nour planet and call it \"Orth\"?\n\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matthew Groves wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington Post?\n\n\nhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html\n\nDirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he says is much\nsuperior.\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<39ed084f0809151236x1a2ad268rfa1fb9d2f2d9e9a4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Groves", "address": "matthewalangroves at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-15T19:36:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<2f8557150809151154n176b532fl70cd27089a115b75@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Rjyan Kadwallader wrote:\nis it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future version of\nour planet and call it \"Orth\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I don't know, maybe not, but it's a moo point (as Joey Tribiani would\nsay). Stephenson's *Anathem* is a postcyberpunk sf novel about another\nWorld, with a planet called Arbre, on which there is a language called Orth." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2f8557150809151242g116b558fj97713a0ba41c0b0d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Rjyan Kadwallader", "address": "cexwell at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-15T19:42:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0809151236x1a2ad268rfa1fb9d2f2d9e9a4@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ohhh, that review made me think the planet was called Orth.\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Matthew Groves wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future version of\nour planet and call it \"Orth\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I don't know, maybe not, but it's a moo point (as Joey Tribiani would\nsay). Stephenson's *Anathem* is a postcyberpunk sf novel about another\nWorld, with a planet called Arbre, on which there is a language called Orth.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9f1507fc0809151253m5102cff4mb557efcd8a74741d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Kerry Benton", "address": "k.benton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-15T19:53:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<2f8557150809151242g116b558fj97713a0ba41c0b0d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's because Dirda told you it was :\n\n\"The plot of Anathem is basically this: It's the far future of an\nEarth-like planet called Orth.\"\n\nIt's kind of a small thing, unless you're a book reviewer for a major\nnews organization, in which case it's not the kind of thing you ought\nto screw up.\n\n-k" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Rjyan Kadwallader wrote:\nohhh, that review made me think the planet was called Orth.\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Matthew Groves\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Rjyan Kadwallader \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future version of\nour planet and call it \"Orth\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, I don't know, maybe not, but it's a moo point (as Joey Tribiani\nwould say). Stephenson's Anathem is a postcyberpunk sf novel about another\nWorld, with a planet called Arbre, on which there is a language called Orth." } ] }, { "message_id": "<156CCFF8-F6F5-4485-B04C-7805D701AE8C@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-15T20:08:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<9f1507fc0809151253m5102cff4mb557efcd8a74741d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if it were a planet called Orth, it's not like Wolfe has a \nmonopoly on the names of the Norns. Or phonetic derivatives of their \nnames.\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 15, 2008, at 2:53 PM, \"Kerry Benton\" wrote:\nThat's because Dirda told you it was :\n\n\"The plot of Anathem is basically this: It's the far future of an\nEarth-like planet called Orth.\"\n\nIt's kind of a small thing, unless you're a book reviewer for a major\nnews organization, in which case it's not the kind of thing you ought\nto screw up.\n\n-k\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Rjyan Kadwallader \n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "ohhh, that review made me think the planet was called Orth.\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Matthew Groves\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Rjyan Kadwallader ", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-15T22:07:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<9f1507fc0809151253m5102cff4mb557efcd8a74741d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Kerry Benton wrote:\n\nIt's kind of a small thing, unless you're a book reviewer for a major\nnews organization, in which case it's not the kind of thing you ought\nto screw up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll forgive him though - he generally gets sf right. Who knows - maybe he\nhad Wolfe on his mind when he wrote that sentence?\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<222677.10841.qm@web44908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "paul witcover", "address": "gdeonn at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-09-16T00:10:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10809151507w66a0c18o8abd8ecceef6d5d@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My Locus review of Anathem is also posted on my blog, the Inferior4+1, for those interested:\n\nhttp://community.livejournal.com/theinferior4/400584.html\n\nI'll be posting my review of An Evil Guest there as well a week or so after it comes out in Locus.\n\npw\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9527.67.142.130.23.1221530199.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-09-16T01:56:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<2f8557150809151154n176b532fl70cd27089a115b75@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It looks like Stephenson has done a 'Sword Of Shannara' on TBOTNS.\n\nWhat a maroon!\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future version of\nour planet and call it \"Orth\"?\n\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matthew Groves\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington Post?\n\n\nhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html\n\nDirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he says is\nmuch\nsuperior.\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-16T02:00:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<9527.67.142.130.23.1221530199.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's be fair... is Stephenson really capable of something along the \nlines of the Shannara series?\n\n(In Terry Brooks' defense, his \"Running with the Demon\" series was \npretty good. Once he stepped away from epic fantasy he's not a \nterrible writer.)\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 15, 2008, at 8:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nIt looks like Stephenson has done a 'Sword Of Shannara' on TBOTNS.\n\nWhat a maroon!\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future \nversion of\nour planet and call it \"Orth\"?\n\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matthew Groves\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington \nPost?\n\n\nhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html\n\nDirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he \nsays is\nmuch\nsuperior.\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9769.72.171.0.141.1221537830.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-09-16T04:03:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hope not: 'Snow Crash' wasn't that bad.\n\nI have no idea if Brooks is good or bad apart from Shannara: the one\nShannara book I read traumatized me so badly that I am unlikely to risk\nexposure to another of his books.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let's be fair... is Stephenson really capable of something along the\nlines of the Shannara series?\n\n(In Terry Brooks' defense, his \"Running with the Demon\" series was\npretty good. Once he stepped away from epic fantasy he's not a\nterrible writer.)\n\nLane\n\nOn Sep 15, 2008, at 8:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It looks like Stephenson has done a 'Sword Of Shannara' on TBOTNS.\n\nWhat a maroon!\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future\nversion of\nour planet and call it \"Orth\"?\n\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matthew Groves\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington\nPost?\n\n\nhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html\n\nDirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he\nsays is\nmuch\nsuperior.\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-16T04:07:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<9769.72.171.0.141.1221537830.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read the Baroque cycle be Stephenson, but \"Snow Crash\" \ncontinues to top my list of favorites. It's like Thomas Pynchon and \nWilliam Gibson had a baby.\n\nTerry Brooks writes terribly juvenile fiction, which is when I read \nthe entire Shannara series (or at least, the series as it existed in \nthe 1990s). I picked up \"Running with the Demon\" and its sequels, and \nactually enjoyed them. Brooks plays with more mature subject matter \nand breaks out of the Standard Epic Fantasy story mold, which is \nnice. Though I hear with his latest books he is attempting to tie \nthese books to the Shannara series, which has kind of ruined it for me.\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 15, 2008, at 11:03 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI hope not: 'Snow Crash' wasn't that bad.\n\nI have no idea if Brooks is good or bad apart from Shannara: the one\nShannara book I read traumatized me so badly that I am unlikely to \nrisk\nexposure to another of his books.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Let's be fair... is Stephenson really capable of something along the\nlines of the Shannara series?\n\n(In Terry Brooks' defense, his \"Running with the Demon\" series was\npretty good. Once he stepped away from epic fantasy he's not a\nterrible writer.)\n\nLane\n\nOn Sep 15, 2008, at 8:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It looks like Stephenson has done a 'Sword Of Shannara' on TBOTNS.\n\nWhat a maroon!\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future\nversion of\nour planet and call it \"Orth\"?\n\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matthew Groves\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington\nPost?\n\n\nhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html\n\nDirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he\nsays is\nmuch\nsuperior.\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14104.72.171.0.141.1221539102.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-09-16T04:25:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've had other people say similar things to me, but I don't see it as all\n*that* good. But then I don't really like either Pynchon or Gibson either.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I haven't read the Baroque cycle be Stephenson, but \"Snow Crash\"\ncontinues to top my list of favorites. It's like Thomas Pynchon and\nWilliam Gibson had a baby.\n\nTerry Brooks writes terribly juvenile fiction, which is when I read\nthe entire Shannara series (or at least, the series as it existed in\nthe 1990s). I picked up \"Running with the Demon\" and its sequels, and\nactually enjoyed them. Brooks plays with more mature subject matter\nand breaks out of the Standard Epic Fantasy story mold, which is\nnice. Though I hear with his latest books he is attempting to tie\nthese books to the Shannara series, which has kind of ruined it for me.\n\nLane\n\nOn Sep 15, 2008, at 11:03 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I hope not: 'Snow Crash' wasn't that bad.\n\nI have no idea if Brooks is good or bad apart from Shannara: the one\nShannara book I read traumatized me so badly that I am unlikely to\nrisk\nexposure to another of his books.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Let's be fair... is Stephenson really capable of something along the\nlines of the Shannara series?\n\n(In Terry Brooks' defense, his \"Running with the Demon\" series was\npretty good. Once he stepped away from epic fantasy he's not a\nterrible writer.)\n\nLane\n\nOn Sep 15, 2008, at 8:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It looks like Stephenson has done a 'Sword Of Shannara' on TBOTNS.\n\nWhat a maroon!\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future\nversion of\nour planet and call it \"Orth\"?\n\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matthew Groves\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington\nPost?\n\n\nhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html\n\nDirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he\nsays is\nmuch\nsuperior.\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9F5AC732-36DD-4B69-99E9-56EC2FE931C9@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-16T04:26:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<14104.72.171.0.141.1221539102.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Next thing you'll tell me that you think Dostoevsky was a hack and \nCapek is overrated! :)\n\nLane" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 15, 2008, at 11:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI've had other people say similar things to me, but I don't see it \nas all\n*that* good. But then I don't really like either Pynchon or Gibson \neither.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I haven't read the Baroque cycle be Stephenson, but \"Snow Crash\"\ncontinues to top my list of favorites. It's like Thomas Pynchon and\nWilliam Gibson had a baby.\n\nTerry Brooks writes terribly juvenile fiction, which is when I read\nthe entire Shannara series (or at least, the series as it existed in\nthe 1990s). I picked up \"Running with the Demon\" and its sequels, \nand\nactually enjoyed them. Brooks plays with more mature subject matter\nand breaks out of the Standard Epic Fantasy story mold, which is\nnice. Though I hear with his latest books he is attempting to tie\nthese books to the Shannara series, which has kind of ruined it for \nme.\n\nLane\n\nOn Sep 15, 2008, at 11:03 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I hope not: 'Snow Crash' wasn't that bad.\n\nI have no idea if Brooks is good or bad apart from Shannara: the one\nShannara book I read traumatized me so badly that I am unlikely to\nrisk\nexposure to another of his books.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Let's be fair... is Stephenson really capable of something along \nthe\nlines of the Shannara series?\n\n(In Terry Brooks' defense, his \"Running with the Demon\" series was\npretty good. Once he stepped away from epic fantasy he's not a\nterrible writer.)\n\nLane\n\nOn Sep 15, 2008, at 8:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It looks like Stephenson has done a 'Sword Of Shannara' on TBOTNS.\n\nWhat a maroon!\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future\nversion of\nour planet and call it \"Orth\"?\n\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matthew Groves\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington\nPost?\n\n\nhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html\n\nDirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he\nsays is\nmuch\nsuperior.\n\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4A323C0E-1113-4375-AFDB-19952603B3C5@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-09-16T04:27:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<39ed084f0809151140h9e0652fjff92ad0cdc6331ff@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 15, 2008, at 11:40 AM, Matthew Groves wrote:\nBut once I forgave Stephenson for not transcending popular fiction \nwith a new Book of the New Sun, I started to enjoy Anathem. I have \nmore to say about the book, but I'm curious about others' reactions \nto Anathem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One question.\n\nDoes the ending suck?\n\nStephenson can't write endings.\n\nThat's a lot of why I liked the Baroque Cycle. 3000 pages of fun, so \nthe 30-page crap ending wasn't too bad (and, to be fair, it was a \nbetter ending than, oh, _The Diamond Age_).\n\nBut I always feel like there's been the following conversation:\n\nEditor: How's it going, Neal?\nStephenson: Great! I've written 1200 pages now!\nEditor: Dude, I sold them a 400-page novel.\nStephenson: ....\nEditor: Wrap it up. NOW.\nStephenson: Um, OK.\n\nSTEPHENSON DOES.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<87bpyolngo.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu>", "from": { "name": "Russ Allbery", "address": "rra at stanford.edu" }, "date": "2008-09-16T04:32:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lane Haygood writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I haven't read the Baroque cycle be Stephenson, but \"Snow Crash\"\ncontinues to top my list of favorites. It's like Thomas Pynchon and\nWilliam Gibson had a baby." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I adore Stephenson in general, but he's a very different writer than\nWolfe. I've not read Anathem yet (I just got my copy last Friday), but I\ncan't imagine it being any sort of direct or even close rip-off of BotNS,\nnor was that the impression I got from the segment Stephenson read or from\nthe subsequent discussion and Q&A. I don't think Stephenson could write\nsuch a book if he tried.\n\nStephenson at his best is a sort of insane infodump of fascinating trivia\ncrossed with incredibly dry geek humor and the sort of crazy ideas that\nengineers and computer people come up with at 2am when they're exhausted.\nHe doesn't have anywhere near the narrative complexity and levels of\npartly revealed detail as Wolfe. He instead sucks you into his world by\nshowing you all the shiny bits that he thought were just fascinating.\nHiding stuff isn't really his thing.\n\nSnow Crash is great stuff, as is Cryptonomicon and Zodiac (an\nunderappreciated book), but read one of his books before getting lots of\nthem. Some people bounce off his writing style pretty badly." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Russ Allbery (rra at stanford.edu) " } ] }, { "message_id": "<56E579CC-4AA9-4DAF-8140-6DA2F0E57A1B@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-09-16T04:33:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<14104.72.171.0.141.1221539102.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 15, 2008, at 9:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI've had other people say similar things to me, but I don't see it \nas all\n*that* good. But then I don't really like either Pynchon or Gibson \neither." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I haven't read the Baroque cycle be Stephenson, but \"Snow Crash\"\ncontinues to top my list of favorites. It's like Thomas Pynchon and\nWilliam Gibson had a baby." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you want Pynchonesque Stephenson, it'd have to be the Baroque \nCycle: really really long, full of awful puns, and dotted with \noccasional non-sequitur musical numbers.\n\nSeriously: the Baroque Cycle is _Gravity's Rainbow_ only set after the \n30 Years' War rather than after WWII.\n\nSpeaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there here?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5196.67.142.130.37.1221543229.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-09-16T05:33:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<9F5AC732-36DD-4B69-99E9-56EC2FE931C9@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Next thing you'll tell me that you think Dostoevsky was a hack and\nCapek is overrated! :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Haven't read Capek, but Dostoevsky puts me to sleep.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Crossley", "address": "ishmael at drizzle.com" }, "date": "2008-09-16T15:40:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<56E579CC-4AA9-4DAF-8140-6DA2F0E57A1B@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/15/08 9:33 PM, \"Adam Thornton\" wrote:\n\nIf you want Pynchonesque Stephenson, it'd have to be the Baroque\nCycle: really really long, full of awful puns, and dotted with\noccasional non-sequitur musical numbers.\n\nSeriously: the Baroque Cycle is _Gravity's Rainbow_ only set after the\n30 Years' War rather than after WWII.\n\nSpeaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there here?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm one. And I've liked Stephenson in the past because of his Pynchon-lite\nqualities, but--and it feels strange to say this--I wish he could write as\ntightly as Pynchon.\n\nJames" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90809161046r2e6e76dbpde6f0c15e2d43cd7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-16T17:46:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hellz yeah, Pynchon! I love Gravity's Rainbow for its thematical scope and\nsheer inventiveness, though I have no idea what you mean by \"tight\" writing\n- Pynchon matches those two with some pretty rambling wordsmithing.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:40 AM, James Crossley wrote:\n\nI'm one. And I've liked Stephenson in the past because of his Pynchon-lite\nqualities, but--and it feels strange to say this--I wish he could write as\ntightly as Pynchon.\n\nJames\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bryan Alexander", "address": "bryan.alexander at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-16T18:37:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another Pynchon fanatic here, agreeing with James and Paul." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:40 AM, James Crossley wrote:\nOn 9/15/08 9:33 PM, \"Adam Thornton\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you want Pynchonesque Stephenson, it'd have to be the Baroque\nCycle: really really long, full of awful puns, and dotted with\noccasional non-sequitur musical numbers.\n\nSeriously: the Baroque Cycle is _Gravity's Rainbow_ only set after the\n30 Years' War rather than after WWII.\n\nSpeaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there here?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm one. And I've liked Stephenson in the past because of his Pynchon-lite\nqualities, but--and it feels strange to say this--I wish he could write as\ntightly as Pynchon.\n\nJames\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Solomon, Joshua", "address": "j.a.solomon at city.ac.uk" }, "date": "2008-09-16T21:50:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 08:40:29 -0700\nFrom: James Crossley \n\nOn 9/15/08 9:33 PM, \"Adam Thornton\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Speaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there here?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm one. And I've liked Stephenson in the past because of his Pynchon-lite\nqualities," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed, James. I've read all of Pynchon's published fiction and most of\nStephenson's. I am indeed a serious Pynchon fan and a less-serious\nStephenson fan. IMO Rainbow is the former's masterpiece and Cryptonomicon is\nthe latter's, but even the latter is lite compared to most Pynchon. The\nBaroque Cycle was a slog. Were it not for the wonderful local (London)\ncolour, I never would have stuck with it. An earlier post echoed my problem\nwith it: long sections seem too much like textbook history. Pynchon was\nnever dry like that (although parts of his last two books were a bit of a\nslog too...nonetheless, on the whole, I strongly recommend Against The Day).\nveering back on topic for a second, am I the only one who frequently finds\npost-New-Sun Wolfe novels a bit of a slog? (His short fiction never bores\nme.) Probably the hardest for me to finish was Wizard Knight. I did finish\nit, but found myself unable to care about Able at all. Even though he is\nvery similar, I found Chris the pirate to be much more interesting. I think\nbecause of the large dichotomy between what he did and how he viewed\nhimself. \nbee" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Joshua A. Solomon\nhttp://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~solomon" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2008-09-16T23:03:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<56E579CC-4AA9-4DAF-8140-6DA2F0E57A1B@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Sep 15, 2008, at 9:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've had other people say similar things to me, but I don't see it as all\n*that* good. But then I don't really like either Pynchon or Gibson either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seriously: the Baroque Cycle is _Gravity's Rainbow_ only set after the 30 \nYears' War rather than after WWII.\n\nSpeaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there here?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well I just finished _Against_the_day. I avoided M&D as too long (read \nall his others), but got sucked in by the first chapter of _AtD_. I like \nand have read everything of Stephenson's, but I was glad to reach the end \nof the Baroque Cycle ;)\n\nTurning back to Wolfe, Pynchon is interested in a lot of the same things \n-- I think here of power and violence and pulp literature (_atD_ has a few \nLovecraftian episodes as well as all the edisonades/westerns) and a hard \nscience background that is deliberately held lightly -- but slightly \ndifferent politics...and more on-screen sex...and his puns are probably \nbetter.\n\nDavid Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<48D04B69.1040900@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2008-09-17T00:12:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm a fan of Wolfe, Stephenson, Gibson, _and_ Pynchon. (Not to mention \nSterling and Swanwick -- have we ever discussed Swanwick here?) Anyway, \n\"Go figure.\"\n\nPynchon's most accessible novel is \"The Crying of Lot 49.\" It has many \nof the themes he elaborates on in later novels (conspiracies, weird sex, \ntechnology, drugs, paranoia, nerdulent infodumps), but is short, funny, \nand to the point. \"Gravity's Rainbow\" is an incredible novel, but it's a \nhard slog for most people (you can tell the ones who gave up because \nthey only talk about the \"Banana Breakfast\" scene, which occurs very \nearly in a very long novel). I liked \"Mason & Dixon\" but found it \noverlong, and haven't managed (so far) to get past the first hundred or \nso pages of \"Against the Day.\" \"V,\" though, is readable and (again) \ncomparatively short.\n\nI like Stephenson a lot, and am reading \"Anathem\" now (and avoiding any \npotential spoilers). Like most Stephenson novels, it's starting somewhat \nslowly. I have read \"The Baroque Cycle\" twice and enjoyed it even more \nthe second time. This is not unlike how I approach most of Wolfe's work: \nI've probably read \"The Book of the New Sun\" six or eight times at \nleast, and still find new stuff each time. I disagree with Adam \nThornton's comparison of \"The Baroque Cycle\" and \"Gravity's Rainbow.\" \nSuperficially it is accurate, but in practice \"GR\" is profoundly \npessimistic and while it is vaguely about \"how the present came to be\" \n(and for Pynchon, that means the technological, deracinated, \nconspiracy-theorist, dehumanized present), \"BC\" is optimistic and about \nhow the modern world and worldview was born and propagated (in a fairly \nshort space of time in the 1600s). Thus, in spite of its setting and \nostensible format (\"historical novel\"), \"BC\" is an SF novel, whereas \n\"GR\" is a modern or post-modern \"mainstream\" novel.\n\nI am looking forward with anticipation to \"An Evil Guest.\" (My wife \ndiscovered it inside our storm door as I was typing this message -- no \ndoubt it fell from space in a leaden casket).\n\nTo further broaden the topic, I just finished \"House of Leaves,\" by Mark \nDanielewski (sp?), another doorstop of a book, full of typographical \nfoolery and unreliable narrators. It was creepy and I enjoyed it.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Duffy wrote:\nOn Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sep 15, 2008, at 9:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I've had other people say similar things to me, but I don't see it \nas all\n*that* good. But then I don't really like either Pynchon or Gibson \neither." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seriously: the Baroque Cycle is _Gravity's Rainbow_ only set after \nthe 30 Years' War rather than after WWII.\n\nSpeaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there here?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well I just finished _Against_the_day. I avoided M&D as too long \n(read all his others), but got sucked in by the first chapter of \n_AtD_. I like and have read everything of Stephenson's, but I was \nglad to reach the end of the Baroque Cycle ;)\n\nTurning back to Wolfe, Pynchon is interested in a lot of the same \nthings -- I think here of power and violence and pulp literature \n(_atD_ has a few Lovecraftian episodes as well as all the \nedisonades/westerns) and a hard science background that is \ndeliberately held lightly -- but slightly different politics...and \nmore on-screen sex...and his puns are probably better.\n\nDavid Duffy.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<653514.58165.qm@web63903.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-09-17T02:53:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<48D04B69.1040900@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Greetings:\n\nLike Swanwick, got bored with Sterling, Gibson is getting increasingly borderline with me.\n\nAs for Stephenson, it's a split. I couldn't get through Snow Crash (but bought it recently to try again) and haven't tried Diamond Age. \n\nCryptnomicon caught my attention and I read it in a day or so when I was supposed to be attending a conference. \n\nI loved The Baroque Cycle. I've bought it in hardcover, trade paperback (to bring on vacation) and in electronic format (twice, the second time to get it in a more \"universal\"--for me--format, to be able to use it in multiple eBook readers).\n\nBut what of Dos Passos?\n\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III \"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Tue, 9/16/08, Dave Lebling wrote:\nFrom: Dave Lebling \nSubject: Re: (urth) OT: Anathem\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 8:12 PM\n\n\n\n\n \nI'm a fan of Wolfe, Stephenson, Gibson, and Pynchon. (Not to\nmention Sterling and Swanwick -- have we ever discussed Swanwick here?)\nAnyway, \"Go figure.\"\n\n\n\nPynchon's most accessible novel is \"The Crying of Lot 49.\" It has many\nof the themes he elaborates on in later novels (conspiracies, weird\nsex, technology, drugs, paranoia, nerdulent infodumps), but is short,\nfunny, and to the point. \"Gravity's Rainbow\" is an incredible novel,\nbut it's a hard slog for most people (you can tell the ones who gave up\nbecause they only talk about the \"Banana Breakfast\" scene, which occurs\nvery early in a very long novel). I liked \"Mason & Dixon\" but found\nit overlong, and haven't managed (so far) to get past the first hundred\nor so pages of \"Against the Day.\" \"V,\" though, is readable and (again)\ncomparatively short.\n\n\n\nI like Stephenson a lot, and am reading \"Anathem\" now (and avoiding any\npotential spoilers). Like most Stephenson novels, it's starting\nsomewhat slowly. I have read \"The Baroque Cycle\" twice and enjoyed it\neven more the second time. This is not unlike how I approach most of\nWolfe's work: I've probably read \"The Book of the New Sun\" six or eight\ntimes at least, and still find new stuff each time. I disagree with\nAdam Thornton's comparison of \"The Baroque Cycle\" and \"Gravity's\nRainbow.\" Superficially it is accurate, but in practice \"GR\" is\nprofoundly pessimistic and while it is vaguely about \"how the present\ncame to be\" (and for Pynchon, that means the technological,\nderacinated, conspiracy-theorist, dehumanized present), \"BC\" is\noptimistic and about how the modern world and worldview was born and\npropagated (in a fairly short space of time in the 1600s). Thus, in\nspite of its setting and ostensible format (\"historical novel\"), \"BC\"\nis an SF novel, whereas \"GR\" is a modern or post-modern \"mainstream\"\nnovel.\n\n\n\nI am looking forward with anticipation to \"An Evil Guest.\" (My wife\ndiscovered it inside our storm door as I was typing this message -- no\ndoubt it fell from space in a leaden casket).\n\n\n\nTo further broaden the topic, I just finished \"House of Leaves,\" by\nMark Danielewski (sp?), another doorstop of a book, full of\ntypographical foolery and unreliable narrators. It was creepy and I\nenjoyed it.\n\n\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha\n\n\n\nDavid Duffy wrote:\nOn Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Adam Thornton wrote:\n \n\n \n\n \n\nOn Sep 15, 2008, at 9:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n \n\n \n\n I've had other people say similar things to\nme, but I don't see it as all\n \n\n*that* good. But then I don't really like either Pynchon or Gibson\neither.\n \n\n \n\n \n \n\nSeriously: the Baroque Cycle is _Gravity's Rainbow_ only set after the\n30 Years' War rather than after WWII.\n \n\n \n\nSpeaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there\nhere?\n \n\n \n\n \n \n\nWell I just finished _Against_the_day. I avoided M&D as too long\n(read all his others), but got sucked in by the first chapter of\n_AtD_. I like and have read everything of Stephenson's, but I was glad\nto reach the end of the Baroque Cycle ;)\n \n\n \n\nTurning back to Wolfe, Pynchon is interested in a lot of the same\nthings -- I think here of power and violence and pulp literature (_atD_\nhas a few Lovecraftian episodes as well as all the edisonades/westerns)\nand a hard science background that is deliberately held lightly -- but\nslightly different politics...and more on-screen sex...and his puns are\nprobably better.\n \n\n \n\nDavid Duffy.\n \n\n \n\nUrth Mailing List\n \n\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\n \n\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n \n\n \n\n \n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<13581.67.142.130.42.1221621420.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-09-17T03:17:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<653514.58165.qm@web63903.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Swanwick is great.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Greetings:\n\nLike Swanwick, got bored with Sterling, Gibson is getting increasingly\nborderline with me.\n\nAs for Stephenson, it's a split. I couldn't get through Snow Crash (but\nbought it recently to try again) and haven't tried Diamond Age.\n\nCryptnomicon caught my attention and I read it in a day or so when I was\nsupposed to be attending a conference.\n\nI loved The Baroque Cycle. I've bought it in hardcover, trade paperback\n(to bring on vacation) and in electronic format (twice, the second time to\nget it in a more \"universal\"--for me--format, to be able to use it in\nmultiple eBook readers).\n\nBut what of Dos Passos?\n\n\n\nF.P. Kiesche III \"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book.\nAlways, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on\nbeing presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman\nEmpire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Tue, 9/16/08, Dave Lebling wrote:\nFrom: Dave Lebling \nSubject: Re: (urth) OT: Anathem\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 8:12 PM\n\n\n\n\n\nI'm a fan of Wolfe, Stephenson, Gibson, and Pynchon. (Not to\nmention Sterling and Swanwick -- have we ever discussed Swanwick here?)\nAnyway, \"Go figure.\"\n\n\n\nPynchon's most accessible novel is \"The Crying of Lot 49.\" It has many\nof the themes he elaborates on in later novels (conspiracies, weird\nsex, technology, drugs, paranoia, nerdulent infodumps), but is short,\nfunny, and to the point. \"Gravity's Rainbow\" is an incredible novel,\nbut it's a hard slog for most people (you can tell the ones who gave up\nbecause they only talk about the \"Banana Breakfast\" scene, which occurs\nvery early in a very long novel). I liked \"Mason & Dixon\" but found\nit overlong, and haven't managed (so far) to get past the first hundred\nor so pages of \"Against the Day.\" \"V,\" though, is readable and (again)\ncomparatively short.\n\n\n\nI like Stephenson a lot, and am reading \"Anathem\" now (and avoiding any\npotential spoilers). Like most Stephenson novels, it's starting\nsomewhat slowly. I have read \"The Baroque Cycle\" twice and enjoyed it\neven more the second time. This is not unlike how I approach most of\nWolfe's work: I've probably read \"The Book of the New Sun\" six or eight\ntimes at least, and still find new stuff each time. I disagree with\nAdam Thornton's comparison of \"The Baroque Cycle\" and \"Gravity's\nRainbow.\" Superficially it is accurate, but in practice \"GR\" is\nprofoundly pessimistic and while it is vaguely about \"how the present\ncame to be\" (and for Pynchon, that means the technological,\nderacinated, conspiracy-theorist, dehumanized present), \"BC\" is\noptimistic and about how the modern world and worldview was born and\npropagated (in a fairly short space of time in the 1600s). Thus, in\nspite of its setting and ostensible format (\"historical novel\"), \"BC\"\nis an SF novel, whereas \"GR\" is a modern or post-modern \"mainstream\"\nnovel.\n\n\n\nI am looking forward with anticipation to \"An Evil Guest.\" (My wife\ndiscovered it inside our storm door as I was typing this message -- no\ndoubt it fell from space in a leaden casket).\n\n\n\nTo further broaden the topic, I just finished \"House of Leaves,\" by\nMark Danielewski (sp?), another doorstop of a book, full of\ntypographical foolery and unreliable narrators. It was creepy and I\nenjoyed it.\n\n\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha\n\n\n\nDavid Duffy wrote:\nOn Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Sep 15, 2008, at 9:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n\n\n\n I've had other people say similar things to\nme, but I don't see it as all\n\n\n*that* good. But then I don't really like either Pynchon or Gibson\neither.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nSeriously: the Baroque Cycle is _Gravity's Rainbow_ only set after the\n30 Years' War rather than after WWII.\n\n\n\n\nSpeaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there\nhere?\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nWell I just finished _Against_the_day. I avoided M&D as too long\n(read all his others), but got sucked in by the first chapter of\n_AtD_. I like and have read everything of Stephenson's, but I was glad\nto reach the end of the Baroque Cycle ;)\n\n\n\n\nTurning back to Wolfe, Pynchon is interested in a lot of the same\nthings -- I think here of power and violence and pulp literature (_atD_\nhas a few Lovecraftian episodes as well as all the edisonades/westerns)\nand a hard science background that is deliberately held lightly -- but\nslightly different politics...and more on-screen sex...and his puns are\nprobably better.\n\n\n\n\nDavid Duffy.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1019569908.20080919230554@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanisław Bocian", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2008-09-19T21:05:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<2f8557150809151154n176b532fl70cd27089a115b75@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2f8557150809201009t6a93d1fen4d75bcb524c87c1a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Rjyan Kadwallader", "address": "cexwell at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-20T17:09:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<1019569908.20080919230554@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids they have\nenough problems as it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Stanis?aw Bocian wrote:\n Hello!\n\n\nRjyan Kadwallader wrote:\n\n\n >\n\nis it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future version of\nour planet and call it \"Orth\"?\n\n...\n\n\nWhat would you say about Gary Gygax, of Dungeons and Dragons? He had\n\nOerth, Aerth, Uerth, Yarth and Earth.\n\n\n\n--\n\nBest regards,\n\nStanislaus B.\n ----------------------------------------------------------------------\nMapa Polski w Twoim telefonie!\nSprawdz >> http://link.interia.pl/f1ee8\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10809201053x56c8f317l7920a6f1d5037c35@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-20T17:53:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<2f8557150809201009t6a93d1fen4d75bcb524c87c1a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2008/9/20 Rjyan Kadwallader " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids they have\nenough problems as it is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And didn't he die a few months back?\n\nAs I understand (from reading Michael Moorcock's comments on this), early\nD&D was very upfront about the sources it used - apparently they used to\ncite Tolkien, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, et al. in the guidebooks. Now - not\nso much.\n\nI never played myself, but surely there are some \"D&D kids\" here? My parents\nwere always suspicious of it, so it wasn't really an option for me. I got my\nwatered-down fantasy through Japanese videogames, thank you very much.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<11910.67.142.130.20.1221935232.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-09-20T18:27:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10809201053x56c8f317l7920a6f1d5037c35@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was in the service when D&D first came out, and beginning to experience\nthe kind of slack an infantryman may experience if he is not in a combat\nzone and knows the way things work. So after I finished my work for the\nday (which would normally take an hour or three) I would mosey on down to\nthe rec hall, where I would play D&D with various other guys doing the\nsame thing I was doing. If anyone asked us what we were about, we were\ndoing small unit tactical exercises.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2008/9/20 Rjyan Kadwallader " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids they\nhave\nenough problems as it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And didn't he die a few months back?\n\nAs I understand (from reading Michael Moorcock's comments on this), early\nD&D was very upfront about the sources it used - apparently they used to\ncite Tolkien, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, et al. in the guidebooks. Now - not\nso much.\n\nI never played myself, but surely there are some \"D&D kids\" here? My\nparents\nwere always suspicious of it, so it wasn't really an option for me. I got\nmy\nwatered-down fantasy through Japanese videogames, thank you very much.\n\n-Matt\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2f8557150809201135v5bf7e14ft7dd27fd5bb2c1e67@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Rjyan Kadwallader", "address": "cexwell at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-20T18:35:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<11910.67.142.130.20.1221935232.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "ha, that's great!!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:27 PM, wrote:\n\nI was in the service when D&D first came out, and beginning to experience\nthe kind of slack an infantryman may experience if he is not in a combat\nzone and knows the way things work. So after I finished my work for the\nday (which would normally take an hour or three) I would mosey on down to\nthe rec hall, where I would play D&D with various other guys doing the\nsame thing I was doing. If anyone asked us what we were about, we were\ndoing small unit tactical exercises.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2008/9/20 Rjyan Kadwallader " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids they\nhave\nenough problems as it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And didn't he die a few months back?\n\nAs I understand (from reading Michael Moorcock's comments on this), early\nD&D was very upfront about the sources it used - apparently they used to\ncite Tolkien, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, et al. in the guidebooks. Now -\nnot\nso much.\n\nI never played myself, but surely there are some \"D&D kids\" here? My\nparents\nwere always suspicious of it, so it wasn't really an option for me. I got\nmy\nwatered-down fantasy through Japanese videogames, thank you very much.\n\n-Matt\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-20T21:43:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10809201053x56c8f317l7920a6f1d5037c35@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He did die a few months back. As for playing D&D, I did but then moved on for \"better\" stuff.\n \nPedro\n\n\n\nDate: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 13:53:37 -0400From: matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.comTo: urth at lists.urth.netSubject: Re: (urth) OT: Anathem\n\n2008/9/20 Rjyan Kadwallader \n\nI think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids they have enough problems as it is.\n\n\n\n\n\nAnd didn't he die a few months back? \n\nAs I understand (from reading Michael Moorcock's comments on this), early D&D was very upfront about the sources it used - apparently they used to cite Tolkien, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, et al. in the guidebooks. Now - not so much.\n\nI never played myself, but surely there are some \"D&D kids\" here? My parents were always suspicious of it, so it wasn't really an option for me. I got my watered-down fantasy through Japanese videogames, thank you very much.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2f8557150809201458q5315b0d7md0cadafa1da4b8a7@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Rjyan Kadwallader", "address": "cexwell at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-20T21:58:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\n I did but then moved on for \"better\" stuff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "was it dogs in the vineyard?\n\nthat game looks ripe for an Urthy setting..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<695461.61337.qm@web63901.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-09-21T00:40:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10809201053x56c8f317l7920a6f1d5037c35@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One (ex) D&D kid here. Can't recall having any problems any different from others my age. And I have a feeling that D&D kids are much more in tune with stuff in Wolfe's writings than say...shop kids or football kids or slacker kids or...\n\nF.P. Kiesche III \"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Sat, 9/20/08, Matthew Keeley wrote:\nFrom: Matthew Keeley \nSubject: Re: (urth) OT: Anathem\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 1:53 PM\n\n\n\n2008/9/20 Rjyan Kadwallader \n\nI think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids they have enough problems as it is.\n\n\n\nAnd didn't he die a few months back?\nAs I understand (from reading Michael Moorcock's comments on this), early D&D was very upfront about the sources it used - apparently they used to cite Tolkien, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, et al. in the guidebooks. Now - not so much.\n\nI never played myself, but surely there are some \"D&D kids\" here? My parents were always suspicious of it, so it wasn't really an option for me. I got my watered-down fantasy through Japanese videogames, thank you very much.\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-09-21T05:46:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10809201053x56c8f317l7920a6f1d5037c35@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 20, 2008, at 10:53 AM, Matthew Keeley wrote:\n2008/9/20 Rjyan Kadwallader \nI think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids \nthey have enough problems as it is.\n\n\nAnd didn't he die a few months back?\n\nAs I understand (from reading Michael Moorcock's comments on this), \nearly D&D was very upfront about the sources it used - apparently \nthey used to cite Tolkien, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, et al. in the \nguidebooks. Now - not so much.\n\nI never played myself, but surely there are some \"D&D kids\" here? My \nparents were always suspicious of it, so it wasn't really an option \nfor me. I got my watered-down fantasy through Japanese videogames, \nthank you very much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, there are a few D&D kids here.\n\nGary Gygax did die a few months ago, and the earlier editions were \npretty clear about where the inspiration came from. A lot of people, \nsuch as your humble correspondent, found their way to Jack Vance, \nFritz Lieber, and Michael Moorcock from it, and thence outward.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-09-21T08:29:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<2f8557150809201135v5bf7e14ft7dd27fd5bb2c1e67@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still play D&D ;-) \n\nhartshorn \n\n \n\nRjyan Kadwallader writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "ha, that's great!! \n\nOn Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:27 PM, wrote: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was in the service when D&D first came out, and beginning to experience\nthe kind of slack an infantryman may experience if he is not in a combat\nzone and knows the way things work. So after I finished my work for the\nday (which would normally take an hour or three) I would mosey on down to\nthe rec hall, where I would play D&D with various other guys doing the\nsame thing I was doing. If anyone asked us what we were about, we were\ndoing small unit tactical exercises." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<48D60FC9.30300@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-09-21T09:11:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10809201053x56c8f317l7920a6f1d5037c35@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Keeley wrote:\n\n\n2008/9/20 Rjyan Kadwallader >\n\n I think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids\n they have enough problems as it is.\n\n\nAnd didn't he die a few months back? \n\nAs I understand (from reading Michael Moorcock's comments on this), \nearly D&D was very upfront about the sources it used - apparently they \nused to cite Tolkien, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, et al. in the guidebooks. \nNow - not so much.\n\nI never played myself, but surely there are some \"D&D kids\" here? My \nparents were always suspicious of it, so it wasn't really an option for \nme. I got my watered-down fantasy through Japanese videogames, thank you \nvery much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The most recent edition is more influenced by World of Warcraft, which \nwas heavily influenced by earlier editions of both.\n\nI've been a D&D player until I moved on to better things as well. \nBesides girls, I playtest with a rival publisher Steve Jackson Games, \nthe same outfit that published the NEW SUN RPG supplement." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Pedro Pereira", "address": "domus_artemis at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-21T13:22:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<2f8557150809201458q5315b0d7md0cadafa1da4b8a7@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Andre wrote a Book of the New Sun RPG campaign book for GURPS, in case you're interested.\n \nI moved on to stuff like Call of Cthulhu, Vampire, Ars Magica, King Arthur Pendragon, In Nomine, etc. \n \nPedro\n\n\n\nDate: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 17:58:28 -0400From: cexwell at gmail.comTo: urth at lists.urth.netSubject: Re: (urth) OT: Anathem\nOn Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Pedro Pereira wrote:\n\n\n I did but then moved on for \"better\" stuff.\nwas it dogs in the vineyard?that game looks ripe for an Urthy setting..." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1f7617370809211759s7d4755d0m4da14fde80451591@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-22T00:59:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<48D60FC9.30300@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI've been a D&D player until I moved on to better things as well. Besides\ngirls, I playtest with a rival publisher Steve Jackson Games, the same\noutfit that published the NEW SUN RPG supplement." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You playtest girls?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant\n-----\nhttp://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer\nhttp://www.danehyoakes.com\n\nI once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant\nand, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and\na bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett" } ] }, { "message_id": "<82086CBD-01AE-4C88-BC4C-6541275D4C85@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-09-23T04:17:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370809211759s7d4755d0m4da14fde80451591@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 21, 2008, at 7:59 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI've been a D&D player until I moved on to better things as well. \nBesides girls, I playtest with a rival publisher Steve Jackson \nGames, the same outfit that published the NEW SUN RPG supplement.\n\nYou playtest girls?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my younger days.\n\nOh. That question wasn't directed at me, was it?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48D86F95.1050702@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-09-23T04:24:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<695461.61337.qm@web63901.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fred Kiesche wrote:\nOne (ex) D&D kid here. Can't recall having any problems any different \nfrom others my age. And I have a feeling that D&D kids are much more in \ntune with stuff in Wolfe's writings than say...shop kids or football \nkids or slacker kids or..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jack Vance was a tremendous influence on both Wolfe and D&D." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48D87018.5060701@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-09-23T04:27:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) OT: Anathem", "in_reply_to": "<1f7617370809211759s7d4755d0m4da14fde80451591@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Jeff Wilson > wrote:\n\n I've been a D&D player until I moved on to better things as well.\n Besides girls, I playtest with a rival publisher Steve Jackson\n Games, the same outfit that published the NEW SUN RPG supplement.\n\n\nYou playtest girls?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Every chance I get." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] } ] }