# OT: Anathem *The Urth list — 45 messages, 22 voices, 15 Sep 2008* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Matthew Groves *15 Sep 2008, 02:08* It's like a cross between Harry Potter and G?del, Escher, Bach. --- ### Greg Bates *15 Sep 2008, 13:55 · in reply to Matthew Groves* I've been meaning to pick this up at some point. I'll probably end up grabbing it the same day I get An Evil Guest. > On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 10:08 PM, Matthew Groves < > matthewalangroves at gmail.com> wrote: > It's like a cross between Harry Potter and G?del, Escher, Bach. > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Matthew Keeley *15 Sep 2008, 15:41 · in reply to Greg Bates* Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington Post? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html Dirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he says is much superior. -Matt --- ### Matthew Groves *15 Sep 2008, 18:40 · in reply to Matthew Keeley* Mostly I agree with Dirda; however I think I like it considerably better than he does. I admire and approve of Stephenson's project. I suspect Stephenson really was thinking about the Harry Potter crowd when he wrote this -- some of whom would be approaching the age of the protagonist, Fraa Erasmus, and his friends. I may be reading too much into the novel, but I am convinced that Stephenson was presenting his science-and-math monastery (the Mynster) is a counterpoint to the Hogwarts "school for wizards," replacing the realm of wish-fulfillment fantasy with the realm of abstract theories and ideas. (The novel seems to be geared toward a just-post-YA age group who were thrilled by the steadily increasing page counts of the Harry Potter sequels and thus won't be scared off by this 900+ page monster.) Stephenson is trying to uplift the Harry Potter crowd with a taste of philosophy and science, and offering some positive alternatives to the consumer-driven, intellectually barren, fundamentalism-spawning culture they've grown up in. Unfortunately, he's going to lose many of those Harry Potter readers (as he nearly lost me), most likely between pp. 12 and 23, in a long description of the Mynster that far outlasts any curiosity you may have developed about the place by this point. It was while slogging through these pages that I kept thinking about how Wolfe introduces us to Severian's world and implies all sorts of fantastic things about it without interrupting the story to take us on a walking tour of the citadel and the Matachin Tower, pointing out details left and right. But that's just the kind of thing Stephenson does at several points in *Anathem*, and whereas Wolfe's details are integral to the story, Stephenson's are mostly just flavor. But once I forgave Stephenson for not transcending popular fiction with a new *Book of the New Sun*, I started to enjoy *Anathem*. I have more to say about the book, but I'm curious about others' reactions to Anathem. On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Matthew Keeley wrote: > Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington Post? > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html > > Dirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he says is much > superior. > > -Matt --- ### Rjyan Kadwallader *15 Sep 2008, 18:54 · in reply to Matthew Groves* is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future version of our planet and call it "Orth"? On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matthew Groves wrote: > Mostly I agree with Dirda; however I think I like it considerably better > than he does. I admire and approve of Stephenson's project. I suspect > Stephenson really was thinking about the Harry Potter crowd when he wrote > this -- some of whom would be approaching the age of the protagonist, Fraa > Erasmus, and his friends. I may be reading too much into the novel, but I > am convinced that Stephenson was presenting his science-and-math monastery > (the Mynster) is a counterpoint to the Hogwarts "school for wizards," > replacing the realm of wish-fulfillment fantasy with the realm of abstract > theories and ideas. (The novel seems to be geared toward a just-post-YA age > group who were thrilled by the steadily increasing page counts of the Harry > Potter sequels and thus won't be scared off by this 900+ page monster.) > Stephenson is trying to uplift the Harry Potter crowd with a taste of > philosophy and science, and offering some positive alternatives > to the consumer-driven, intellectually barren, > fundamentalism-spawning culture they've grown up in. > > Unfortunately, he's going to lose many of those Harry Potter readers (as he > nearly lost me), most likely between pp. 12 and 23, in a long description of > the Mynster that far outlasts any curiosity you may have developed about the > place by this point. It was while slogging through these pages that I kept > thinking about how Wolfe introduces us to Severian's world and implies all > sorts of fantastic things about it without interrupting the story to take us > on a walking tour of the citadel and the Matachin Tower, pointing out > details left and right. But that's just the kind of thing Stephenson does > at several points in *Anathem*, and whereas Wolfe's details are integral > to the story, Stephenson's are mostly just flavor. > > But once I forgave Stephenson for not transcending popular fiction with a > new *Book of the New Sun*, I started to enjoy *Anathem*. I have more to > say about the book, but I'm curious about others' reactions to Anathem. > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Matthew Keeley < > matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com> wrote: >> Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington Post? >> >> >> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html >> >> Dirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he says is much >> superior. >> >> -Matt > _______________________________________________ --- ### Matthew Groves *15 Sep 2008, 19:36 · in reply to Rjyan Kadwallader* > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Rjyan Kadwallader wrote: > is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future version of > our planet and call it "Orth"? Well, I don't know, maybe not, but it's a moo point (as Joey Tribiani would say). Stephenson's *Anathem* is a postcyberpunk sf novel about another World, with a planet called Arbre, on which there is a language called Orth. --- ### Rjyan Kadwallader *15 Sep 2008, 19:42 · in reply to Matthew Groves* ohhh, that review made me think the planet was called Orth. On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Matthew Groves wrote: > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Rjyan Kadwallader wrote: >> is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future version of >> our planet and call it "Orth"? > Well, I don't know, maybe not, but it's a moo point (as Joey Tribiani would > say). Stephenson's *Anathem* is a postcyberpunk sf novel about another > World, with a planet called Arbre, on which there is a language called Orth. > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Kerry Benton *15 Sep 2008, 19:53 · in reply to Rjyan Kadwallader* That's because Dirda told you it was : "The plot of Anathem is basically this: It's the far future of an Earth-like planet called Orth." It's kind of a small thing, unless you're a book reviewer for a major news organization, in which case it's not the kind of thing you ought to screw up. -k > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Rjyan Kadwallader wrote: > ohhh, that review made me think the planet was called Orth. > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Matthew Groves > wrote: >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Rjyan Kadwallader >> wrote: >>> is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future version of >>> our planet and call it "Orth"? >> Well, I don't know, maybe not, but it's a moo point (as Joey Tribiani >> would say). Stephenson's Anathem is a postcyberpunk sf novel about another >> World, with a planet called Arbre, on which there is a language called Orth. --- ### Lane Haygood *15 Sep 2008, 20:08 · in reply to Kerry Benton* Even if it were a planet called Orth, it's not like Wolfe has a monopoly on the names of the Norns. Or phonetic derivatives of their names. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 15, 2008, at 2:53 PM, "Kerry Benton" wrote: > That's because Dirda told you it was : > > "The plot of Anathem is basically this: It's the far future of an > Earth-like planet called Orth." > > It's kind of a small thing, unless you're a book reviewer for a major > news organization, in which case it's not the kind of thing you ought > to screw up. > > -k > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:42 PM, Rjyan Kadwallader > wrote: >> ohhh, that review made me think the planet was called Orth. >> >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Matthew Groves >> wrote: >>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 1:54 PM, Rjyan Kadwallader >> wrote: >>>> is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future >>>> version of >>>> our planet and call it "Orth"? >>> Well, I don't know, maybe not, but it's a moo point (as Joey >>> Tribiani >>> would say). Stephenson's Anathem is a postcyberpunk sf novel >>> about another >>> World, with a planet called Arbre, on which there is a language >>> called Orth. > _______________________________________________ --- ### Matthew Keeley *15 Sep 2008, 22:07 · in reply to Kerry Benton* > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Kerry Benton wrote: > > It's kind of a small thing, unless you're a book reviewer for a major > news organization, in which case it's not the kind of thing you ought > to screw up. I'll forgive him though - he generally gets sf right. Who knows - maybe he had Wolfe on his mind when he wrote that sentence? -Matt --- ### paul witcover *16 Sep 2008, 00:10 · in reply to Matthew Keeley* My Locus review of Anathem is also posted on my blog, the Inferior4+1, for those interested: http://community.livejournal.com/theinferior4/400584.html I'll be posting my review of An Evil Guest there as well a week or so after it comes out in Locus. pw --- ### brunians at brunians.org *16 Sep 2008, 01:56 · in reply to Rjyan Kadwallader* It looks like Stephenson has done a 'Sword Of Shannara' on TBOTNS. What a maroon! . > is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future version of > our planet and call it "Orth"? > > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matthew Groves > wrote: >> Mostly I agree with Dirda; however I think I like it considerably better >> than he does. I admire and approve of Stephenson's project. I suspect >> Stephenson really was thinking about the Harry Potter crowd when he >> wrote >> this -- some of whom would be approaching the age of the protagonist, >> Fraa >> Erasmus, and his friends. I may be reading too much into the novel, but >> I >> am convinced that Stephenson was presenting his science-and-math >> monastery >> (the Mynster) is a counterpoint to the Hogwarts "school for wizards," >> replacing the realm of wish-fulfillment fantasy with the realm of >> abstract >> theories and ideas. (The novel seems to be geared toward a just-post-YA >> age >> group who were thrilled by the steadily increasing page counts of the >> Harry >> Potter sequels and thus won't be scared off by this 900+ page monster.) >> Stephenson is trying to uplift the Harry Potter crowd with a taste of >> philosophy and science, and offering some positive alternatives >> to the consumer-driven, intellectually barren, >> fundamentalism-spawning culture they've grown up in. >> >> Unfortunately, he's going to lose many of those Harry Potter readers (as >> he >> nearly lost me), most likely between pp. 12 and 23, in a long >> description of >> the Mynster that far outlasts any curiosity you may have developed about >> the >> place by this point. It was while slogging through these pages that I >> kept >> thinking about how Wolfe introduces us to Severian's world and implies >> all >> sorts of fantastic things about it without interrupting the story to >> take us >> on a walking tour of the citadel and the Matachin Tower, pointing out >> details left and right. But that's just the kind of thing Stephenson >> does >> at several points in *Anathem*, and whereas Wolfe's details are integral >> to the story, Stephenson's are mostly just flavor. >> >> But once I forgave Stephenson for not transcending popular fiction with >> a >> new *Book of the New Sun*, I started to enjoy *Anathem*. I have more to >> say about the book, but I'm curious about others' reactions to Anathem. >> >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Matthew Keeley < >> matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com> wrote: >>> Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington Post? >>> >>> >>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html >>> >>> Dirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he says is >>> much >>> superior. >>> >>> -Matt >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Lane Haygood *16 Sep 2008, 02:00 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* Let's be fair... is Stephenson really capable of something along the lines of the Shannara series? (In Terry Brooks' defense, his "Running with the Demon" series was pretty good. Once he stepped away from epic fantasy he's not a terrible writer.) Lane > On Sep 15, 2008, at 8:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > It looks like Stephenson has done a 'Sword Of Shannara' on TBOTNS. > > What a maroon! > > > > . >> is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future >> version of >> our planet and call it "Orth"? >> >> >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matthew Groves >> > wrote: >>> Mostly I agree with Dirda; however I think I like it considerably >>> better >>> than he does. I admire and approve of Stephenson's project. I >>> suspect >>> Stephenson really was thinking about the Harry Potter crowd when he >>> wrote >>> this -- some of whom would be approaching the age of the >>> protagonist, >>> Fraa >>> Erasmus, and his friends. I may be reading too much into the >>> novel, but >>> I >>> am convinced that Stephenson was presenting his science-and-math >>> monastery >>> (the Mynster) is a counterpoint to the Hogwarts "school for >>> wizards," >>> replacing the realm of wish-fulfillment fantasy with the realm of >>> abstract >>> theories and ideas. (The novel seems to be geared toward a just- >>> post-YA >>> age >>> group who were thrilled by the steadily increasing page counts of >>> the >>> Harry >>> Potter sequels and thus won't be scared off by this 900+ page >>> monster.) >>> Stephenson is trying to uplift the Harry Potter crowd with a taste >>> of >>> philosophy and science, and offering some positive alternatives >>> to the consumer-driven, intellectually barren, >>> fundamentalism-spawning culture they've grown up in. >>> >>> Unfortunately, he's going to lose many of those Harry Potter >>> readers (as >>> he >>> nearly lost me), most likely between pp. 12 and 23, in a long >>> description of >>> the Mynster that far outlasts any curiosity you may have developed >>> about >>> the >>> place by this point. It was while slogging through these pages >>> that I >>> kept >>> thinking about how Wolfe introduces us to Severian's world and >>> implies >>> all >>> sorts of fantastic things about it without interrupting the story to >>> take us >>> on a walking tour of the citadel and the Matachin Tower, pointing >>> out >>> details left and right. But that's just the kind of thing >>> Stephenson >>> does >>> at several points in *Anathem*, and whereas Wolfe's details are >>> integral >>> to the story, Stephenson's are mostly just flavor. >>> >>> But once I forgave Stephenson for not transcending popular fiction >>> with >>> a >>> new *Book of the New Sun*, I started to enjoy *Anathem*. I have >>> more to >>> say about the book, but I'm curious about others' reactions to >>> Anathem. >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Matthew Keeley < >>> matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington >>>> Post? >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html >>>> >>>> Dirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he >>>> says is >>>> much >>>> superior. >>>> >>>> -Matt >>> _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *16 Sep 2008, 04:03 · in reply to Lane Haygood* I hope not: 'Snow Crash' wasn't that bad. I have no idea if Brooks is good or bad apart from Shannara: the one Shannara book I read traumatized me so badly that I am unlikely to risk exposure to another of his books. . > Let's be fair... is Stephenson really capable of something along the > lines of the Shannara series? > > (In Terry Brooks' defense, his "Running with the Demon" series was > pretty good. Once he stepped away from epic fantasy he's not a > terrible writer.) > > Lane > > On Sep 15, 2008, at 8:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> It looks like Stephenson has done a 'Sword Of Shannara' on TBOTNS. >> >> What a maroon! >> >> >> >> . >>> is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future >>> version of >>> our planet and call it "Orth"? >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matthew Groves >>> >> wrote: >>>> Mostly I agree with Dirda; however I think I like it considerably >>>> better >>>> than he does. I admire and approve of Stephenson's project. I >>>> suspect >>>> Stephenson really was thinking about the Harry Potter crowd when he >>>> wrote >>>> this -- some of whom would be approaching the age of the >>>> protagonist, >>>> Fraa >>>> Erasmus, and his friends. I may be reading too much into the >>>> novel, but >>>> I >>>> am convinced that Stephenson was presenting his science-and-math >>>> monastery >>>> (the Mynster) is a counterpoint to the Hogwarts "school for >>>> wizards," >>>> replacing the realm of wish-fulfillment fantasy with the realm of >>>> abstract >>>> theories and ideas. (The novel seems to be geared toward a just- >>>> post-YA >>>> age >>>> group who were thrilled by the steadily increasing page counts of >>>> the >>>> Harry >>>> Potter sequels and thus won't be scared off by this 900+ page >>>> monster.) >>>> Stephenson is trying to uplift the Harry Potter crowd with a taste >>>> of >>>> philosophy and science, and offering some positive alternatives >>>> to the consumer-driven, intellectually barren, >>>> fundamentalism-spawning culture they've grown up in. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately, he's going to lose many of those Harry Potter >>>> readers (as >>>> he >>>> nearly lost me), most likely between pp. 12 and 23, in a long >>>> description of >>>> the Mynster that far outlasts any curiosity you may have developed >>>> about >>>> the >>>> place by this point. It was while slogging through these pages >>>> that I >>>> kept >>>> thinking about how Wolfe introduces us to Severian's world and >>>> implies >>>> all >>>> sorts of fantastic things about it without interrupting the story to >>>> take us >>>> on a walking tour of the citadel and the Matachin Tower, pointing >>>> out >>>> details left and right. But that's just the kind of thing >>>> Stephenson >>>> does >>>> at several points in *Anathem*, and whereas Wolfe's details are >>>> integral >>>> to the story, Stephenson's are mostly just flavor. >>>> >>>> But once I forgave Stephenson for not transcending popular fiction >>>> with >>>> a >>>> new *Book of the New Sun*, I started to enjoy *Anathem*. I have >>>> more to >>>> say about the book, but I'm curious about others' reactions to >>>> Anathem. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Matthew Keeley < >>>> matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington >>>>> Post? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html >>>>> >>>>> Dirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he >>>>> says is >>>>> much >>>>> superior. >>>>> >>>>> -Matt >>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### Lane Haygood *16 Sep 2008, 04:07 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* I haven't read the Baroque cycle be Stephenson, but "Snow Crash" continues to top my list of favorites. It's like Thomas Pynchon and William Gibson had a baby. Terry Brooks writes terribly juvenile fiction, which is when I read the entire Shannara series (or at least, the series as it existed in the 1990s). I picked up "Running with the Demon" and its sequels, and actually enjoyed them. Brooks plays with more mature subject matter and breaks out of the Standard Epic Fantasy story mold, which is nice. Though I hear with his latest books he is attempting to tie these books to the Shannara series, which has kind of ruined it for me. Lane > On Sep 15, 2008, at 11:03 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > I hope not: 'Snow Crash' wasn't that bad. > > I have no idea if Brooks is good or bad apart from Shannara: the one > Shannara book I read traumatized me so badly that I am unlikely to > risk > exposure to another of his books. > > > > . >> Let's be fair... is Stephenson really capable of something along the >> lines of the Shannara series? >> >> (In Terry Brooks' defense, his "Running with the Demon" series was >> pretty good. Once he stepped away from epic fantasy he's not a >> terrible writer.) >> >> Lane >> >> On Sep 15, 2008, at 8:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>> It looks like Stephenson has done a 'Sword Of Shannara' on TBOTNS. >>> >>> What a maroon! >>> >>> >>> >>> . >>>> is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future >>>> version of >>>> our planet and call it "Orth"? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matthew Groves >>>> >>> wrote: >>>>> Mostly I agree with Dirda; however I think I like it considerably >>>>> better >>>>> than he does. I admire and approve of Stephenson's project. I >>>>> suspect >>>>> Stephenson really was thinking about the Harry Potter crowd when >>>>> he >>>>> wrote >>>>> this -- some of whom would be approaching the age of the >>>>> protagonist, >>>>> Fraa >>>>> Erasmus, and his friends. I may be reading too much into the >>>>> novel, but >>>>> I >>>>> am convinced that Stephenson was presenting his science-and-math >>>>> monastery >>>>> (the Mynster) is a counterpoint to the Hogwarts "school for >>>>> wizards," >>>>> replacing the realm of wish-fulfillment fantasy with the realm of >>>>> abstract >>>>> theories and ideas. (The novel seems to be geared toward a just- >>>>> post-YA >>>>> age >>>>> group who were thrilled by the steadily increasing page counts of >>>>> the >>>>> Harry >>>>> Potter sequels and thus won't be scared off by this 900+ page >>>>> monster.) >>>>> Stephenson is trying to uplift the Harry Potter crowd with a taste >>>>> of >>>>> philosophy and science, and offering some positive alternatives >>>>> to the consumer-driven, intellectually barren, >>>>> fundamentalism-spawning culture they've grown up in. >>>>> >>>>> Unfortunately, he's going to lose many of those Harry Potter >>>>> readers (as >>>>> he >>>>> nearly lost me), most likely between pp. 12 and 23, in a long >>>>> description of >>>>> the Mynster that far outlasts any curiosity you may have developed >>>>> about >>>>> the >>>>> place by this point. It was while slogging through these pages >>>>> that I >>>>> kept >>>>> thinking about how Wolfe introduces us to Severian's world and >>>>> implies >>>>> all >>>>> sorts of fantastic things about it without interrupting the >>>>> story to >>>>> take us >>>>> on a walking tour of the citadel and the Matachin Tower, pointing >>>>> out >>>>> details left and right. But that's just the kind of thing >>>>> Stephenson >>>>> does >>>>> at several points in *Anathem*, and whereas Wolfe's details are >>>>> integral >>>>> to the story, Stephenson's are mostly just flavor. >>>>> >>>>> But once I forgave Stephenson for not transcending popular fiction >>>>> with >>>>> a >>>>> new *Book of the New Sun*, I started to enjoy *Anathem*. I have >>>>> more to >>>>> say about the book, but I'm curious about others' reactions to >>>>> Anathem. >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Matthew Keeley < >>>>> matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington >>>>>> Post? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html >>>>>> >>>>>> Dirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he >>>>>> says is >>>>>> much >>>>>> superior. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Matt >>>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *16 Sep 2008, 04:25 · in reply to Lane Haygood* I've had other people say similar things to me, but I don't see it as all *that* good. But then I don't really like either Pynchon or Gibson either. . > I haven't read the Baroque cycle be Stephenson, but "Snow Crash" > continues to top my list of favorites. It's like Thomas Pynchon and > William Gibson had a baby. > > Terry Brooks writes terribly juvenile fiction, which is when I read > the entire Shannara series (or at least, the series as it existed in > the 1990s). I picked up "Running with the Demon" and its sequels, and > actually enjoyed them. Brooks plays with more mature subject matter > and breaks out of the Standard Epic Fantasy story mold, which is > nice. Though I hear with his latest books he is attempting to tie > these books to the Shannara series, which has kind of ruined it for me. > > Lane > > On Sep 15, 2008, at 11:03 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> I hope not: 'Snow Crash' wasn't that bad. >> >> I have no idea if Brooks is good or bad apart from Shannara: the one >> Shannara book I read traumatized me so badly that I am unlikely to >> risk >> exposure to another of his books. >> >> >> >> . >>> Let's be fair... is Stephenson really capable of something along the >>> lines of the Shannara series? >>> >>> (In Terry Brooks' defense, his "Running with the Demon" series was >>> pretty good. Once he stepped away from epic fantasy he's not a >>> terrible writer.) >>> >>> Lane >>> >>> On Sep 15, 2008, at 8:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>> It looks like Stephenson has done a 'Sword Of Shannara' on TBOTNS. >>>> >>>> What a maroon! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> . >>>>> is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future >>>>> version of >>>>> our planet and call it "Orth"? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matthew Groves >>>>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>> Mostly I agree with Dirda; however I think I like it considerably >>>>>> better >>>>>> than he does. I admire and approve of Stephenson's project. I >>>>>> suspect >>>>>> Stephenson really was thinking about the Harry Potter crowd when >>>>>> he >>>>>> wrote >>>>>> this -- some of whom would be approaching the age of the >>>>>> protagonist, >>>>>> Fraa >>>>>> Erasmus, and his friends. I may be reading too much into the >>>>>> novel, but >>>>>> I >>>>>> am convinced that Stephenson was presenting his science-and-math >>>>>> monastery >>>>>> (the Mynster) is a counterpoint to the Hogwarts "school for >>>>>> wizards," >>>>>> replacing the realm of wish-fulfillment fantasy with the realm of >>>>>> abstract >>>>>> theories and ideas. (The novel seems to be geared toward a just- >>>>>> post-YA >>>>>> age >>>>>> group who were thrilled by the steadily increasing page counts of >>>>>> the >>>>>> Harry >>>>>> Potter sequels and thus won't be scared off by this 900+ page >>>>>> monster.) >>>>>> Stephenson is trying to uplift the Harry Potter crowd with a taste >>>>>> of >>>>>> philosophy and science, and offering some positive alternatives >>>>>> to the consumer-driven, intellectually barren, >>>>>> fundamentalism-spawning culture they've grown up in. >>>>>> >>>>>> Unfortunately, he's going to lose many of those Harry Potter >>>>>> readers (as >>>>>> he >>>>>> nearly lost me), most likely between pp. 12 and 23, in a long >>>>>> description of >>>>>> the Mynster that far outlasts any curiosity you may have developed >>>>>> about >>>>>> the >>>>>> place by this point. It was while slogging through these pages >>>>>> that I >>>>>> kept >>>>>> thinking about how Wolfe introduces us to Severian's world and >>>>>> implies >>>>>> all >>>>>> sorts of fantastic things about it without interrupting the >>>>>> story to >>>>>> take us >>>>>> on a walking tour of the citadel and the Matachin Tower, pointing >>>>>> out >>>>>> details left and right. But that's just the kind of thing >>>>>> Stephenson >>>>>> does >>>>>> at several points in *Anathem*, and whereas Wolfe's details are >>>>>> integral >>>>>> to the story, Stephenson's are mostly just flavor. >>>>>> >>>>>> But once I forgave Stephenson for not transcending popular fiction >>>>>> with >>>>>> a >>>>>> new *Book of the New Sun*, I started to enjoy *Anathem*. I have >>>>>> more to >>>>>> say about the book, but I'm curious about others' reactions to >>>>>> Anathem. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Matthew Keeley < >>>>>> matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington >>>>>>> Post? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he >>>>>>> says is >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> superior. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Matt >>>>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### Lane Haygood *16 Sep 2008, 04:26 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* Next thing you'll tell me that you think Dostoevsky was a hack and Capek is overrated! :) Lane > On Sep 15, 2008, at 11:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > I've had other people say similar things to me, but I don't see it > as all > *that* good. But then I don't really like either Pynchon or Gibson > either. > > > > . >> I haven't read the Baroque cycle be Stephenson, but "Snow Crash" >> continues to top my list of favorites. It's like Thomas Pynchon and >> William Gibson had a baby. >> >> Terry Brooks writes terribly juvenile fiction, which is when I read >> the entire Shannara series (or at least, the series as it existed in >> the 1990s). I picked up "Running with the Demon" and its sequels, >> and >> actually enjoyed them. Brooks plays with more mature subject matter >> and breaks out of the Standard Epic Fantasy story mold, which is >> nice. Though I hear with his latest books he is attempting to tie >> these books to the Shannara series, which has kind of ruined it for >> me. >> >> Lane >> >> On Sep 15, 2008, at 11:03 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>> I hope not: 'Snow Crash' wasn't that bad. >>> >>> I have no idea if Brooks is good or bad apart from Shannara: the one >>> Shannara book I read traumatized me so badly that I am unlikely to >>> risk >>> exposure to another of his books. >>> >>> >>> >>> . >>>> Let's be fair... is Stephenson really capable of something along >>>> the >>>> lines of the Shannara series? >>>> >>>> (In Terry Brooks' defense, his "Running with the Demon" series was >>>> pretty good. Once he stepped away from epic fantasy he's not a >>>> terrible writer.) >>>> >>>> Lane >>>> >>>> On Sep 15, 2008, at 8:56 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>> It looks like Stephenson has done a 'Sword Of Shannara' on TBOTNS. >>>>> >>>>> What a maroon! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>>> is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future >>>>>> version of >>>>>> our planet and call it "Orth"? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Matthew Groves >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Mostly I agree with Dirda; however I think I like it >>>>>>> considerably >>>>>>> better >>>>>>> than he does. I admire and approve of Stephenson's project. I >>>>>>> suspect >>>>>>> Stephenson really was thinking about the Harry Potter crowd when >>>>>>> he >>>>>>> wrote >>>>>>> this -- some of whom would be approaching the age of the >>>>>>> protagonist, >>>>>>> Fraa >>>>>>> Erasmus, and his friends. I may be reading too much into the >>>>>>> novel, but >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> am convinced that Stephenson was presenting his science-and-math >>>>>>> monastery >>>>>>> (the Mynster) is a counterpoint to the Hogwarts "school for >>>>>>> wizards," >>>>>>> replacing the realm of wish-fulfillment fantasy with the realm >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> abstract >>>>>>> theories and ideas. (The novel seems to be geared toward a >>>>>>> just- >>>>>>> post-YA >>>>>>> age >>>>>>> group who were thrilled by the steadily increasing page counts >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> Harry >>>>>>> Potter sequels and thus won't be scared off by this 900+ page >>>>>>> monster.) >>>>>>> Stephenson is trying to uplift the Harry Potter crowd with a >>>>>>> taste >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> philosophy and science, and offering some positive alternatives >>>>>>> to the consumer-driven, intellectually barren, >>>>>>> fundamentalism-spawning culture they've grown up in. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unfortunately, he's going to lose many of those Harry Potter >>>>>>> readers (as >>>>>>> he >>>>>>> nearly lost me), most likely between pp. 12 and 23, in a long >>>>>>> description of >>>>>>> the Mynster that far outlasts any curiosity you may have >>>>>>> developed >>>>>>> about >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> place by this point. It was while slogging through these pages >>>>>>> that I >>>>>>> kept >>>>>>> thinking about how Wolfe introduces us to Severian's world and >>>>>>> implies >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> sorts of fantastic things about it without interrupting the >>>>>>> story to >>>>>>> take us >>>>>>> on a walking tour of the citadel and the Matachin Tower, >>>>>>> pointing >>>>>>> out >>>>>>> details left and right. But that's just the kind of thing >>>>>>> Stephenson >>>>>>> does >>>>>>> at several points in *Anathem*, and whereas Wolfe's details are >>>>>>> integral >>>>>>> to the story, Stephenson's are mostly just flavor. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But once I forgave Stephenson for not transcending popular >>>>>>> fiction >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> new *Book of the New Sun*, I started to enjoy *Anathem*. I have >>>>>>> more to >>>>>>> say about the book, but I'm curious about others' reactions to >>>>>>> Anathem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 10:41 AM, Matthew Keeley < >>>>>>> matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> Anyone read Michael Dirda's review of Anathem in The Washington >>>>>>>> Post? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402460.html >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dirda compares Anathem with The Book of the New Sun, which he >>>>>>>> says is >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> superior. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -Matt >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### Adam Thornton *16 Sep 2008, 04:27 · in reply to Matthew Groves* > On Sep 15, 2008, at 11:40 AM, Matthew Groves wrote: > But once I forgave Stephenson for not transcending popular fiction > with a new Book of the New Sun, I started to enjoy Anathem. I have > more to say about the book, but I'm curious about others' reactions > to Anathem. One question. Does the ending suck? Stephenson can't write endings. That's a lot of why I liked the Baroque Cycle. 3000 pages of fun, so the 30-page crap ending wasn't too bad (and, to be fair, it was a better ending than, oh, _The Diamond Age_). But I always feel like there's been the following conversation: Editor: How's it going, Neal? Stephenson: Great! I've written 1200 pages now! Editor: Dude, I sold them a 400-page novel. Stephenson: .... Editor: Wrap it up. NOW. Stephenson: Um, OK. STEPHENSON DOES. Adam --- ### Russ Allbery *16 Sep 2008, 04:32 · in reply to Lane Haygood* Lane Haygood writes: > I haven't read the Baroque cycle be Stephenson, but "Snow Crash" > continues to top my list of favorites. It's like Thomas Pynchon and > William Gibson had a baby. I adore Stephenson in general, but he's a very different writer than Wolfe. I've not read Anathem yet (I just got my copy last Friday), but I can't imagine it being any sort of direct or even close rip-off of BotNS, nor was that the impression I got from the segment Stephenson read or from the subsequent discussion and Q&A. I don't think Stephenson could write such a book if he tried. Stephenson at his best is a sort of insane infodump of fascinating trivia crossed with incredibly dry geek humor and the sort of crazy ideas that engineers and computer people come up with at 2am when they're exhausted. He doesn't have anywhere near the narrative complexity and levels of partly revealed detail as Wolfe. He instead sucks you into his world by showing you all the shiny bits that he thought were just fascinating. Hiding stuff isn't really his thing. Snow Crash is great stuff, as is Cryptonomicon and Zodiac (an underappreciated book), but read one of his books before getting lots of them. Some people bounce off his writing style pretty badly. ``` Russ Allbery (rra at stanford.edu) ``` --- ### Adam Thornton *16 Sep 2008, 04:33 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* > On Sep 15, 2008, at 9:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > I've had other people say similar things to me, but I don't see it > as all > *that* good. But then I don't really like either Pynchon or Gibson > either. >> I haven't read the Baroque cycle be Stephenson, but "Snow Crash" >> continues to top my list of favorites. It's like Thomas Pynchon and >> William Gibson had a baby. If you want Pynchonesque Stephenson, it'd have to be the Baroque Cycle: really really long, full of awful puns, and dotted with occasional non-sequitur musical numbers. Seriously: the Baroque Cycle is _Gravity's Rainbow_ only set after the 30 Years' War rather than after WWII. Speaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there here? Adam --- ### brunians at brunians.org *16 Sep 2008, 05:33 · in reply to Lane Haygood* > Next thing you'll tell me that you think Dostoevsky was a hack and > Capek is overrated! :) Haven't read Capek, but Dostoevsky puts me to sleep. . --- ### James Crossley *16 Sep 2008, 15:40 · in reply to Adam Thornton* > On 9/15/08 9:33 PM, "Adam Thornton" wrote: > > If you want Pynchonesque Stephenson, it'd have to be the Baroque > Cycle: really really long, full of awful puns, and dotted with > occasional non-sequitur musical numbers. > > Seriously: the Baroque Cycle is _Gravity's Rainbow_ only set after the > 30 Years' War rather than after WWII. > > Speaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there here? I'm one. And I've liked Stephenson in the past because of his Pynchon-lite qualities, but--and it feels strange to say this--I wish he could write as tightly as Pynchon. James --- ### Paul B *16 Sep 2008, 17:46 · in reply to James Crossley* Hellz yeah, Pynchon! I love Gravity's Rainbow for its thematical scope and sheer inventiveness, though I have no idea what you mean by "tight" writing - Pynchon matches those two with some pretty rambling wordsmithing. Paul > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:40 AM, James Crossley wrote: > > I'm one. And I've liked Stephenson in the past because of his Pynchon-lite > qualities, but--and it feels strange to say this--I wish he could write as > tightly as Pynchon. > > James > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Bryan Alexander *16 Sep 2008, 18:37 · in reply to James Crossley* Another Pynchon fanatic here, agreeing with James and Paul. > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 11:40 AM, James Crossley wrote: > On 9/15/08 9:33 PM, "Adam Thornton" wrote: >> If you want Pynchonesque Stephenson, it'd have to be the Baroque >> Cycle: really really long, full of awful puns, and dotted with >> occasional non-sequitur musical numbers. >> >> Seriously: the Baroque Cycle is _Gravity's Rainbow_ only set after the >> 30 Years' War rather than after WWII. >> >> Speaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there here? > I'm one. And I've liked Stephenson in the past because of his Pynchon-lite > qualities, but--and it feels strange to say this--I wish he could write as > tightly as Pynchon. > > James > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Solomon, Joshua *16 Sep 2008, 21:50 · follows Bryan Alexander* > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 08:40:29 -0700 > From: James Crossley > > On 9/15/08 9:33 PM, "Adam Thornton" wrote: >> Speaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there here? > I'm one. And I've liked Stephenson in the past because of his Pynchon-lite > qualities, Agreed, James. I've read all of Pynchon's published fiction and most of Stephenson's. I am indeed a serious Pynchon fan and a less-serious Stephenson fan. IMO Rainbow is the former's masterpiece and Cryptonomicon is the latter's, but even the latter is lite compared to most Pynchon. The Baroque Cycle was a slog. Were it not for the wonderful local (London) colour, I never would have stuck with it. An earlier post echoed my problem with it: long sections seem too much like textbook history. Pynchon was never dry like that (although parts of his last two books were a bit of a slog too...nonetheless, on the whole, I strongly recommend Against The Day). veering back on topic for a second, am I the only one who frequently finds post-New-Sun Wolfe novels a bit of a slog? (His short fiction never bores me.) Probably the hardest for me to finish was Wizard Knight. I did finish it, but found myself unable to care about Able at all. Even though he is very similar, I found Chris the pirate to be much more interesting. I think because of the large dichotomy between what he did and how he viewed himself. bee ``` Joshua A. Solomon http://www.staff.city.ac.uk/~solomon ``` --- ### David Duffy *16 Sep 2008, 23:03 · in reply to Adam Thornton* > On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Adam Thornton wrote: > > On Sep 15, 2008, at 9:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> I've had other people say similar things to me, but I don't see it as all >> *that* good. But then I don't really like either Pynchon or Gibson either. > Seriously: the Baroque Cycle is _Gravity's Rainbow_ only set after the 30 > Years' War rather than after WWII. > > Speaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there here? Well I just finished _Against_the_day. I avoided M&D as too long (read all his others), but got sucked in by the first chapter of _AtD_. I like and have read everything of Stephenson's, but I was glad to reach the end of the Baroque Cycle ;) Turning back to Wolfe, Pynchon is interested in a lot of the same things -- I think here of power and violence and pulp literature (_atD_ has a few Lovecraftian episodes as well as all the edisonades/westerns) and a hard science background that is deliberately held lightly -- but slightly different politics...and more on-screen sex...and his puns are probably better. David Duffy. --- ### Dave Lebling *17 Sep 2008, 00:12 · in reply to David Duffy* I'm a fan of Wolfe, Stephenson, Gibson, _and_ Pynchon. (Not to mention Sterling and Swanwick -- have we ever discussed Swanwick here?) Anyway, "Go figure." Pynchon's most accessible novel is "The Crying of Lot 49." It has many of the themes he elaborates on in later novels (conspiracies, weird sex, technology, drugs, paranoia, nerdulent infodumps), but is short, funny, and to the point. "Gravity's Rainbow" is an incredible novel, but it's a hard slog for most people (you can tell the ones who gave up because they only talk about the "Banana Breakfast" scene, which occurs very early in a very long novel). I liked "Mason & Dixon" but found it overlong, and haven't managed (so far) to get past the first hundred or so pages of "Against the Day." "V," though, is readable and (again) comparatively short. I like Stephenson a lot, and am reading "Anathem" now (and avoiding any potential spoilers). Like most Stephenson novels, it's starting somewhat slowly. I have read "The Baroque Cycle" twice and enjoyed it even more the second time. This is not unlike how I approach most of Wolfe's work: I've probably read "The Book of the New Sun" six or eight times at least, and still find new stuff each time. I disagree with Adam Thornton's comparison of "The Baroque Cycle" and "Gravity's Rainbow." Superficially it is accurate, but in practice "GR" is profoundly pessimistic and while it is vaguely about "how the present came to be" (and for Pynchon, that means the technological, deracinated, conspiracy-theorist, dehumanized present), "BC" is optimistic and about how the modern world and worldview was born and propagated (in a fairly short space of time in the 1600s). Thus, in spite of its setting and ostensible format ("historical novel"), "BC" is an SF novel, whereas "GR" is a modern or post-modern "mainstream" novel. I am looking forward with anticipation to "An Evil Guest." (My wife discovered it inside our storm door as I was typing this message -- no doubt it fell from space in a leaden casket). To further broaden the topic, I just finished "House of Leaves," by Mark Danielewski (sp?), another doorstop of a book, full of typographical foolery and unreliable narrators. It was creepy and I enjoyed it. -- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha > David Duffy wrote: > On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Adam Thornton wrote: >> On Sep 15, 2008, at 9:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>> I've had other people say similar things to me, but I don't see it >>> as all >>> *that* good. But then I don't really like either Pynchon or Gibson >>> either. >> Seriously: the Baroque Cycle is _Gravity's Rainbow_ only set after >> the 30 Years' War rather than after WWII. >> >> Speaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there here? > Well I just finished _Against_the_day. I avoided M&D as too long > (read all his others), but got sucked in by the first chapter of > _AtD_. I like and have read everything of Stephenson's, but I was > glad to reach the end of the Baroque Cycle ;) > > Turning back to Wolfe, Pynchon is interested in a lot of the same > things -- I think here of power and violence and pulp literature > (_atD_ has a few Lovecraftian episodes as well as all the > edisonades/westerns) and a hard science background that is > deliberately held lightly -- but slightly different politics...and > more on-screen sex...and his puns are probably better. > > David Duffy. > _______________________________________________ --- ### Fred Kiesche *17 Sep 2008, 02:53 · in reply to Dave Lebling* Greetings: Like Swanwick, got bored with Sterling, Gibson is getting increasingly borderline with me. As for Stephenson, it's a split. I couldn't get through Snow Crash (but bought it recently to try again) and haven't tried Diamond Age. Cryptnomicon caught my attention and I read it in a day or so when I was supposed to be attending a conference. I loved The Baroque Cycle. I've bought it in hardcover, trade paperback (to bring on vacation) and in electronic format (twice, the second time to get it in a more "universal"--for me--format, to be able to use it in multiple eBook readers). But what of Dos Passos? F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok! --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Dave Lebling wrote: From: Dave Lebling Subject: Re: (urth) OT: Anathem To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 8:12 PM I'm a fan of Wolfe, Stephenson, Gibson, and Pynchon. (Not to mention Sterling and Swanwick -- have we ever discussed Swanwick here?) Anyway, "Go figure." Pynchon's most accessible novel is "The Crying of Lot 49." It has many of the themes he elaborates on in later novels (conspiracies, weird sex, technology, drugs, paranoia, nerdulent infodumps), but is short, funny, and to the point. "Gravity's Rainbow" is an incredible novel, but it's a hard slog for most people (you can tell the ones who gave up because they only talk about the "Banana Breakfast" scene, which occurs very early in a very long novel). I liked "Mason & Dixon" but found it overlong, and haven't managed (so far) to get past the first hundred or so pages of "Against the Day." "V," though, is readable and (again) comparatively short. I like Stephenson a lot, and am reading "Anathem" now (and avoiding any potential spoilers). Like most Stephenson novels, it's starting somewhat slowly. I have read "The Baroque Cycle" twice and enjoyed it even more the second time. This is not unlike how I approach most of Wolfe's work: I've probably read "The Book of the New Sun" six or eight times at least, and still find new stuff each time. I disagree with Adam Thornton's comparison of "The Baroque Cycle" and "Gravity's Rainbow." Superficially it is accurate, but in practice "GR" is profoundly pessimistic and while it is vaguely about "how the present came to be" (and for Pynchon, that means the technological, deracinated, conspiracy-theorist, dehumanized present), "BC" is optimistic and about how the modern world and worldview was born and propagated (in a fairly short space of time in the 1600s). Thus, in spite of its setting and ostensible format ("historical novel"), "BC" is an SF novel, whereas "GR" is a modern or post-modern "mainstream" novel. I am looking forward with anticipation to "An Evil Guest." (My wife discovered it inside our storm door as I was typing this message -- no doubt it fell from space in a leaden casket). To further broaden the topic, I just finished "House of Leaves," by Mark Danielewski (sp?), another doorstop of a book, full of typographical foolery and unreliable narrators. It was creepy and I enjoyed it. -- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha David Duffy wrote: On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Adam Thornton wrote: On Sep 15, 2008, at 9:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: I've had other people say similar things to me, but I don't see it as all *that* good. But then I don't really like either Pynchon or Gibson either. Seriously: the Baroque Cycle is _Gravity's Rainbow_ only set after the 30 Years' War rather than after WWII. Speaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there here? Well I just finished _Against_the_day. I avoided M&D as too long (read all his others), but got sucked in by the first chapter of _AtD_. I like and have read everything of Stephenson's, but I was glad to reach the end of the Baroque Cycle ;) Turning back to Wolfe, Pynchon is interested in a lot of the same things -- I think here of power and violence and pulp literature (_atD_ has a few Lovecraftian episodes as well as all the edisonades/westerns) and a hard science background that is deliberately held lightly -- but slightly different politics...and more on-screen sex...and his puns are probably better. David Duffy. Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net --- ### brunians at brunians.org *17 Sep 2008, 03:17 · in reply to Fred Kiesche* Swanwick is great. . > Greetings: > > Like Swanwick, got bored with Sterling, Gibson is getting increasingly > borderline with me. > > As for Stephenson, it's a split. I couldn't get through Snow Crash (but > bought it recently to try again) and haven't tried Diamond Age. > > Cryptnomicon caught my attention and I read it in a day or so when I was > supposed to be attending a conference. > > I loved The Baroque Cycle. I've bought it in hardcover, trade paperback > (to bring on vacation) and in electronic format (twice, the second time to > get it in a more "universal"--for me--format, to be able to use it in > multiple eBook readers). > > But what of Dos Passos? > > > > F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. > Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on > being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman > Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok! > > --- On Tue, 9/16/08, Dave Lebling wrote: > From: Dave Lebling > Subject: Re: (urth) OT: Anathem > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Tuesday, September 16, 2008, 8:12 PM > > > > > > I'm a fan of Wolfe, Stephenson, Gibson, and Pynchon. (Not to > mention Sterling and Swanwick -- have we ever discussed Swanwick here?) > Anyway, "Go figure." > > > > Pynchon's most accessible novel is "The Crying of Lot 49." It has many > of the themes he elaborates on in later novels (conspiracies, weird > sex, technology, drugs, paranoia, nerdulent infodumps), but is short, > funny, and to the point. "Gravity's Rainbow" is an incredible novel, > but it's a hard slog for most people (you can tell the ones who gave up > because they only talk about the "Banana Breakfast" scene, which occurs > very early in a very long novel). I liked "Mason & Dixon" but found > it overlong, and haven't managed (so far) to get past the first hundred > or so pages of "Against the Day." "V," though, is readable and (again) > comparatively short. > > > > I like Stephenson a lot, and am reading "Anathem" now (and avoiding any > potential spoilers). Like most Stephenson novels, it's starting > somewhat slowly. I have read "The Baroque Cycle" twice and enjoyed it > even more the second time. This is not unlike how I approach most of > Wolfe's work: I've probably read "The Book of the New Sun" six or eight > times at least, and still find new stuff each time. I disagree with > Adam Thornton's comparison of "The Baroque Cycle" and "Gravity's > Rainbow." Superficially it is accurate, but in practice "GR" is > profoundly pessimistic and while it is vaguely about "how the present > came to be" (and for Pynchon, that means the technological, > deracinated, conspiracy-theorist, dehumanized present), "BC" is > optimistic and about how the modern world and worldview was born and > propagated (in a fairly short space of time in the 1600s). Thus, in > spite of its setting and ostensible format ("historical novel"), "BC" > is an SF novel, whereas "GR" is a modern or post-modern "mainstream" > novel. > > > > I am looking forward with anticipation to "An Evil Guest." (My wife > discovered it inside our storm door as I was typing this message -- no > doubt it fell from space in a leaden casket). > > > > To further broaden the topic, I just finished "House of Leaves," by > Mark Danielewski (sp?), another doorstop of a book, full of > typographical foolery and unreliable narrators. It was creepy and I > enjoyed it. > > > > -- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha > > > > David Duffy wrote: > On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Adam Thornton wrote: > > > > > > > On Sep 15, 2008, at 9:25 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > > > > I've had other people say similar things to > me, but I don't see it as all > > > *that* good. But then I don't really like either Pynchon or Gibson > either. > > > > > > > > Seriously: the Baroque Cycle is _Gravity's Rainbow_ only set after the > 30 Years' War rather than after WWII. > > > > > Speaking of which: how many other hard-core Pynchon fans are there > here? > > > > > > > > Well I just finished _Against_the_day. I avoided M&D as too long > (read all his others), but got sucked in by the first chapter of > _AtD_. I like and have read everything of Stephenson's, but I was glad > to reach the end of the Baroque Cycle ;) > > > > > Turning back to Wolfe, Pynchon is interested in a lot of the same > things -- I think here of power and violence and pulp literature (_atD_ > has a few Lovecraftian episodes as well as all the edisonades/westerns) > and a hard science background that is deliberately held lightly -- but > slightly different politics...and more on-screen sex...and his puns are > probably better. > > > > > David Duffy. > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Stanisław Bocian *19 Sep 2008, 21:05 · in reply to Rjyan Kadwallader* An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: --- ### Rjyan Kadwallader *20 Sep 2008, 17:09 · in reply to Stanisław Bocian* I think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids they have enough problems as it is. > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 5:05 PM, Stanis?aw Bocian wrote: > Hello! > > > Rjyan Kadwallader wrote: > > > > > > is it really totally OK to write a fantasy book about a future version of > our planet and call it "Orth"? > > ... > > > What would you say about Gary Gygax, of Dungeons and Dragons? He had > > Oerth, Aerth, Uerth, Yarth and Earth. > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > Stanislaus B. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Mapa Polski w Twoim telefonie! > Sprawdz >> http://link.interia.pl/f1ee8 > _______________________________________________ --- ### Matthew Keeley *20 Sep 2008, 17:53 · in reply to Rjyan Kadwallader* 2008/9/20 Rjyan Kadwallader > I think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids they have > enough problems as it is. And didn't he die a few months back? As I understand (from reading Michael Moorcock's comments on this), early D&D was very upfront about the sources it used - apparently they used to cite Tolkien, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, et al. in the guidebooks. Now - not so much. I never played myself, but surely there are some "D&D kids" here? My parents were always suspicious of it, so it wasn't really an option for me. I got my watered-down fantasy through Japanese videogames, thank you very much. -Matt --- ### brunians at brunians.org *20 Sep 2008, 18:27 · in reply to Matthew Keeley* I was in the service when D&D first came out, and beginning to experience the kind of slack an infantryman may experience if he is not in a combat zone and knows the way things work. So after I finished my work for the day (which would normally take an hour or three) I would mosey on down to the rec hall, where I would play D&D with various other guys doing the same thing I was doing. If anyone asked us what we were about, we were doing small unit tactical exercises. . > 2008/9/20 Rjyan Kadwallader >> I think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids they >> have >> enough problems as it is. > And didn't he die a few months back? > > As I understand (from reading Michael Moorcock's comments on this), early > D&D was very upfront about the sources it used - apparently they used to > cite Tolkien, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, et al. in the guidebooks. Now - not > so much. > > I never played myself, but surely there are some "D&D kids" here? My > parents > were always suspicious of it, so it wasn't really an option for me. I got > my > watered-down fantasy through Japanese videogames, thank you very much. > > -Matt > _______________________________________________ --- ### Rjyan Kadwallader *20 Sep 2008, 18:35 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* ha, that's great!! > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:27 PM, wrote: > > I was in the service when D&D first came out, and beginning to experience > the kind of slack an infantryman may experience if he is not in a combat > zone and knows the way things work. So after I finished my work for the > day (which would normally take an hour or three) I would mosey on down to > the rec hall, where I would play D&D with various other guys doing the > same thing I was doing. If anyone asked us what we were about, we were > doing small unit tactical exercises. > > > . >> 2008/9/20 Rjyan Kadwallader >>> I think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids they >>> have >>> enough problems as it is. >> And didn't he die a few months back? >> >> As I understand (from reading Michael Moorcock's comments on this), early >> D&D was very upfront about the sources it used - apparently they used to >> cite Tolkien, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, et al. in the guidebooks. Now - >> not >> so much. >> >> I never played myself, but surely there are some "D&D kids" here? My >> parents >> were always suspicious of it, so it wasn't really an option for me. I got >> my >> watered-down fantasy through Japanese videogames, thank you very much. >> >> -Matt >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Pedro Pereira *20 Sep 2008, 21:43 · in reply to Matthew Keeley* He did die a few months back. As for playing D&D, I did but then moved on for "better" stuff. Pedro Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 13:53:37 -0400From: matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.comTo: urth at lists.urth.netSubject: Re: (urth) OT: Anathem 2008/9/20 Rjyan Kadwallader I think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids they have enough problems as it is. And didn't he die a few months back? As I understand (from reading Michael Moorcock's comments on this), early D&D was very upfront about the sources it used - apparently they used to cite Tolkien, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, et al. in the guidebooks. Now - not so much. I never played myself, but surely there are some "D&D kids" here? My parents were always suspicious of it, so it wasn't really an option for me. I got my watered-down fantasy through Japanese videogames, thank you very much. -Matt --- ### Rjyan Kadwallader *20 Sep 2008, 21:58 · in reply to Pedro Pereira* > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Pedro Pereira wrote: > I did but then moved on for "better" stuff. was it dogs in the vineyard? that game looks ripe for an Urthy setting... --- ### Fred Kiesche *21 Sep 2008, 00:40 · in reply to Matthew Keeley* One (ex) D&D kid here. Can't recall having any problems any different from others my age. And I have a feeling that D&D kids are much more in tune with stuff in Wolfe's writings than say...shop kids or football kids or slacker kids or... F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok! --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Matthew Keeley wrote: From: Matthew Keeley Subject: Re: (urth) OT: Anathem To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 1:53 PM 2008/9/20 Rjyan Kadwallader I think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids they have enough problems as it is. And didn't he die a few months back? As I understand (from reading Michael Moorcock's comments on this), early D&D was very upfront about the sources it used - apparently they used to cite Tolkien, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, et al. in the guidebooks. Now - not so much. I never played myself, but surely there are some "D&D kids" here? My parents were always suspicious of it, so it wasn't really an option for me. I got my watered-down fantasy through Japanese videogames, thank you very much. -Matt --- ### Adam Thornton *21 Sep 2008, 05:46 · in reply to Matthew Keeley* > On Sep 20, 2008, at 10:53 AM, Matthew Keeley wrote: > 2008/9/20 Rjyan Kadwallader > I think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids > they have enough problems as it is. > > > And didn't he die a few months back? > > As I understand (from reading Michael Moorcock's comments on this), > early D&D was very upfront about the sources it used - apparently > they used to cite Tolkien, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, et al. in the > guidebooks. Now - not so much. > > I never played myself, but surely there are some "D&D kids" here? My > parents were always suspicious of it, so it wasn't really an option > for me. I got my watered-down fantasy through Japanese videogames, > thank you very much. Yeah, there are a few D&D kids here. Gary Gygax did die a few months ago, and the earlier editions were pretty clear about where the inspiration came from. A lot of people, such as your humble correspondent, found their way to Jack Vance, Fritz Lieber, and Michael Moorcock from it, and thence outward. Adam --- ### Andy Robertson *21 Sep 2008, 08:29 · in reply to Rjyan Kadwallader* I still play D&D ;-) hartshorn Rjyan Kadwallader writes: > ha, that's great!! > > On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 2:27 PM, wrote: >> I was in the service when D&D first came out, and beginning to experience >> the kind of slack an infantryman may experience if he is not in a combat >> zone and knows the way things work. So after I finished my work for the >> day (which would normally take an hour or three) I would mosey on down to >> the rec hall, where I would play D&D with various other guys doing the >> same thing I was doing. If anyone asked us what we were about, we were >> doing small unit tactical exercises. http://www.thenightland.co.uk 01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 --- ### Jeff Wilson *21 Sep 2008, 09:11 · in reply to Matthew Keeley* > Matthew Keeley wrote: > > > 2008/9/20 Rjyan Kadwallader > > > I think I would let Gary slide, it's not cool to pick on D&D kids > they have enough problems as it is. > > > And didn't he die a few months back? > > As I understand (from reading Michael Moorcock's comments on this), > early D&D was very upfront about the sources it used - apparently they > used to cite Tolkien, Moorcock, Leiber, Vance, et al. in the guidebooks. > Now - not so much. > > I never played myself, but surely there are some "D&D kids" here? My > parents were always suspicious of it, so it wasn't really an option for > me. I got my watered-down fantasy through Japanese videogames, thank you > very much. The most recent edition is more influenced by World of Warcraft, which was heavily influenced by earlier editions of both. I've been a D&D player until I moved on to better things as well. Besides girls, I playtest with a rival publisher Steve Jackson Games, the same outfit that published the NEW SUN RPG supplement. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` --- ### Pedro Pereira *21 Sep 2008, 13:22 · in reply to Rjyan Kadwallader* Well, Andre wrote a Book of the New Sun RPG campaign book for GURPS, in case you're interested. I moved on to stuff like Call of Cthulhu, Vampire, Ars Magica, King Arthur Pendragon, In Nomine, etc. Pedro Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 17:58:28 -0400From: cexwell at gmail.comTo: urth at lists.urth.netSubject: Re: (urth) OT: Anathem On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 5:43 PM, Pedro Pereira wrote: I did but then moved on for "better" stuff. was it dogs in the vineyard?that game looks ripe for an Urthy setting... --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *22 Sep 2008, 00:59 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* > On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > I've been a D&D player until I moved on to better things as well. Besides > girls, I playtest with a rival publisher Steve Jackson Games, the same > outfit that published the NEW SUN RPG supplement. You playtest girls? ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes, writer, trainer, bon vivant ----- http://www.livejournal.com/users/sturgeonslawyer http://www.danehyoakes.com I once absend-mindedly ordered Three Mile Island dressing in a restaurant and, with great presence of mind, they brought Thousand Island Dressing and a bottle of chili sauce. -- T. Pratchett ``` --- ### Adam Thornton *23 Sep 2008, 04:17 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > On Sep 21, 2008, at 7:59 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > I've been a D&D player until I moved on to better things as well. > Besides girls, I playtest with a rival publisher Steve Jackson > Games, the same outfit that published the NEW SUN RPG supplement. > > You playtest girls? In my younger days. Oh. That question wasn't directed at me, was it? Adam --- ### Jeff Wilson *23 Sep 2008, 04:24 · in reply to Fred Kiesche* > Fred Kiesche wrote: > One (ex) D&D kid here. Can't recall having any problems any different > from others my age. And I have a feeling that D&D kids are much more in > tune with stuff in Wolfe's writings than say...shop kids or football > kids or slacker kids or... Jack Vance was a tremendous influence on both Wolfe and D&D. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` --- ### Jeff Wilson *23 Sep 2008, 04:27 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 2:11 AM, Jeff Wilson > wrote: > > I've been a D&D player until I moved on to better things as well. > Besides girls, I playtest with a rival publisher Steve Jackson > Games, the same outfit that published the NEW SUN RPG supplement. > > > You playtest girls? Every chance I get. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com < http://www.io.com/~jwilson > ``` ---