{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5156", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5156, "subject": "To Serve Man in Woldercan", "messages": 34, "voices": 20, "first": "2008-09-25T23:46:50+00:00", "last": "2008-10-08T16:49:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<81c420fa0809251646q3cef14a4u4766baeb296bb0a8@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Greg Bates", "address": "tedkennedyrolls at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-25T23:46:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) To Serve Man in Woldercan", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just finished Evil Guest, so I can finally contribute to the discussion.\nGreat book, btw. I'll admit I wasn't too crazy about it until about halfway\nin, but once they get to the Takangas the book becomes spectacular.\n\nThe more I think about it, the more Gideon Chase seems to be neither Robert\nChase's son nor human, and might even be one of the \"evil guests\" the title\nimplies. Wolfe calls him a 'guest' three times on the very first page, and\nmentions that \"On Earth, the guest's name was Gideon Chase.\" Is Gideon\nsomeone else entirely on Woldercan? His deal with Cassie seems like a\nregular devil's bargain - he gives her the thing she wants most in the\nworld, with incredible consequences. A big thing that struck me - Chase\ntells Cassie that there are many non-human races in the world that have sent\nsmall envoys secretly to Earth (I think the bat people are some of these and\nnot Wolders, Klauser mentions that Wolders look 'like us, unless you look\nclosely (e.g. Gideon's eyes)). However, none of these races have ever made\nofficial contact with us because of the presense of Cthulhu (squid god/storm\nking). So what's different about Woldercan? Is Woldercan in league with Mr.\nSquid God? They both seem to make out well in the end - Cthulhu gets his\nenemy, the man who fights for \"a blue island in a sea of black\" murdered,\nand Chase becomes the ambassador to Woldercan, where he can presumably\ncontrol diplomatic relations between his planet and Earth, as well as bury\nwhatever secrets Reis stole during his time as ambassador.\n\nI get a sort of \"To Serve Man\" vibe from Woldercan, to be honest. Like the\naliens in TSM, the Wolders give humanity (or some humans) great wealth in\nthe alchemical process of lead to gold. Even though they don't seem to be\neating humans (Scott not withstanding), the whole book has a muted theme of\nshapeshifting and genetic engineering, and there might be evidence of such\npractices with our locals. Between Klauser's advice to Cassie to bring guns\nwith his mentions of Wolders \"trying to seduce human women\" and \"hybridizing\nwith lesser forms\" I get the sense that something very weird is going on\nwith Wolder foriegn policy. Even Reis's son Rian (need to check etymology)\nis \"defective\" in some way - until the wizardly Woldercan Chase \"heals\" him.\nI can't help but think that somehow the picture Klauser gives Cassie is the\nclimax of a hushed warning he subtly tries to give her throughout the last\nchapter, and there's some clue nobody's picked up on that she's heading\ntowards a dismal fate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<43960c850809261136v3013e2c3u366b18371d60e0e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Russell Wodell", "address": "wrustle at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-26T18:36:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) To Serve Man in Woldercan", "in_reply_to": "<81c420fa0809251646q3cef14a4u4766baeb296bb0a8@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isnt' \"Woldercan\" the name of the lost city in \"The Circus of Dr. Lao\"?\n\nRussell Wodell" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48DEE7F9.5050209@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2008-09-28T02:12:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) To Serve Man in Woldercan -- SPOILERS", "in_reply_to": "<43960c850809261136v3013e2c3u366b18371d60e0e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "SPOILERS BELOW (for both EG and \"The Circus of Dr. Lao.\")\n..\n.\n.\n..\n.\n.\n.\n.\n..\n.\n.\n.\n.\n.\n.\n..\n.\n.\n.\n.\n..\n.\n.\n.\n.\n.\n..\n.\n..\n.\n\nThanks for that hit. Indeed it is. Of course, we are never told whether \nWoldercan is what people of Earth call the planet, as opposed to what \nthe Woldercan-ese call it. I pulled out my copy of \"The Circus of Dr. \nLao\" and found (or remembered) that Woldercan is a city, the city of the \ngod Yottle. They are in the midst of a terrible drought, and are \nprepared to implore Yottle to provide them water and food, when a member \nof the audience mocks Yottle, and instead they demand water. Yottle \nsends a \"storm\" (of words), and says (through his high priest) that \nbefore he will even listen to them, they must sacrifice their most \nbeautiful virgin to him. The people choose the virgin, who it turns out \nis the betrothed of the man who suggested they demand instead of pray. \nThe high priest prepares to bash her brains out with a stone axe, the \nvirgin's betrothed tries to stop him, and the statue of Yottle falls on \nall three, killing them. Rain and manna begin to fall from the heavens.\n\nComparisons to the sacrifice of Reis, betrothed of the most beautiful \nwoman on the island, aren't perfect but certainly fit closely enough.\n\nI just finished the book tonight, and haven't fully formed my thoughts \nabout it. A few observations though.\n\nThe book is obviously built around an homage to the pulp fiction of the \n1930s. Detective story, theater story, Lovecraftian horror, detective \nstory, \"strange powers\" story (notice the mention of a man named \nCranston who could disappear), South Seas adventure/love story, and on \nand on. Wolfe is having a lot of fun here. He's also using all the \ncliches of the genres he includes, right up to the (grating to today's \nears) naive and friendly/dangerous Natives to the Japanese Com Pu Ter \nwho can't pronounce Ls. None of that makes any sense in 2100, but in \n1935 it was what pulps had.\n\nThe Lovecraft parallels were there from the first mention of the watch. \nI might also mention that the \"RC\" (though Randolph Carter is a great \nguess) could also be \"Raymond Chandler.\"\n\nThe whole business of aliens in the sea of course also brings in Wolfe's \nNew Sun monsters, and my guess is he grinned from ear to ear as he \nconnected them to C'thulhu and to the cliche of sacrificing someone to \nthe storm/volcano god.\n\nI haven't decided yet whether Cassie is going to Woldercan for revenge \nor to get rejuvenated. I suspect the former. Compare the whole plot to \nWolfe's story about aliens seducing Earth women, \"Pulp Cover.\" Gideon is \nvery clearly a Woldercan/human hybrid.\n\nI have no idea about the bat-people or the voices in the car, though I \nlove the Truter theory on the latter and the Bates pun. If Wolfe didn't \ndo that deliberately, he should have.\n\nMy initial reaction is that it started very slowly and became better and \nbetter until about half-way through it was very hard to put down.\n\nMore when I've thought more.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Russell Wodell wrote:\nIsnt' \"Woldercan\" the name of the lost city in \"The Circus of Dr. Lao\"?\n \nRussell Wodell\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<464773.49880.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "don doggett", "address": "kingwukong at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-09-28T21:57:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) To Serve Man in Woldercan -- SPOILERS", "in_reply_to": "<48DEE7F9.5050209@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Imo, Wolfe very deliberately refers to a hopper as a flier. They escape gravity in a similar manner, too. It's interesting that Reiss draws the U.S. Navy into a conflict with the Squid God/Cthulhu/Abaia(?). Could that encounter be prelude to the Ascian empire? I also wonder if the Takanga group is actually on earth.\n\nDon\n\n\n--- On Sat, 9/27/08, Dave Lebling wrote:\nThe whole business of aliens in the sea of course also brings in\nWolfe's New Sun monsters, and my guess is he grinned from ear to ear as\nhe connected them to C'thulhu and to the cliche of sacrificing someone\nto the storm/volcano god.\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<620232.4000.qm@web59612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Matt Teel", "address": "adeodatus43 at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-09-29T15:34:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<464773.49880.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello all. I'm emerging from underneath my rock to ask a question. \n\nI've read and re-read and re-re-read Book of the New Sun, and part of the fun is figuring out how each chapter, each scene, contributes to the whole. That's hardest with the earlier chapters, I find, and particularly with Chapter VI: The Master of the Curators. I love this scene, but other than the need for Severian to get the books for Thecla, I'm wondering what the Point is. \n\nI've gone through the Urth archives and haven't found an answer, so I thought I would bring it to the group. What does this chapter contribute to the story? I mean, on a superficial level we certainly get a feel for life in the Citadel, the stagnation of the culture; we get some interesting information about another guild ... but what else? What am I missing? Surely there's more to it than that.\n\nThanks.\n\nMatt\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-09-29T15:45:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<620232.4000.qm@web59612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 29, 2008, at 10:34 AM, Matt Teel wrote:\n\nI've gone through the Urth archives and haven't found an answer, so \nI thought I would bring it to the group. What does this chapter \ncontribute to the story? I mean, on a superficial level we \ncertainly get a feel for life in the Citadel, the stagnation of the \nculture; we get some interesting information about another guild ... \nbut what else? What am I missing? Surely there's more to it than \nthat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This scene establishes Nessus as Buenos Aires. The blind librarian is \nBorges. I believe that Cyby is a Gary-Stu. Mostly, I think it's a \nbig tip of the hat to Borges and his influence on _BotNS_.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<404259.89423.qm@web59604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Matt Teel", "address": "adeodatus43 at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-09-29T16:03:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Adam.\n\nI did find those things in the archives (the reference to Borges is especially interesting to me). But I'm thinking all of that is pretty self-referential, and that surely there is some reason from *within the story* for the existence of this scene: some plot piece put into place, for example, that I'm missing. \n\nEvery scene in a book generally has a number of things going on. While Wolfe's own Hitchcock-like appearance, and the reference to Borges, are interesting,?I have a hunch they aren't the?*reason* for the scene. And that's what's really got me stumped.\n\nThanks again!? I appreciate your taking the time.\n\nMatt\n\n--- On Mon, 9/29/08, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) a lurker asks a question\nTo: adeodatus43 at yahoo.com, \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, September 29, 2008, 3:45 PM\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Sep 29, 2008, at 10:34 AM, Matt Teel wrote:\n\n\n\n\n\n\nI've gone through the Urth archives and haven't found an answer, so I thought I would bring it to the group. What does this chapter contribute to the story? I mean, on a superficial level we certainly get a feel for life in the Citadel, the stagnation of the culture; we get some interesting information about another guild ... but what else? What am I missing? Surely there's more to it than that.\n\n\n\n\nThis scene establishes Nessus as Buenos Aires. ?The blind librarian is Borges. ?I believe that Cyby is a Gary-Stu. ?Mostly, I think it's a big tip of the hat to Borges and his influence on _BotNS_.\n\n\nAdam\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-29T21:10:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<404259.89423.qm@web59604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can think of at least one reason for Severian's meeting Ultan, and that is\ntheir discussion of the Alzabo and the sharing of consciousness with the use\nof the analeptic alzabo. But, like you, I feel there is something more I\nam missing. The beginning of the chapter is a good example, when Sev\nmentions that he felt as if he and Ultan were both buried or something close\nto that. What does he really mean by this and when is it echoed later in\nthe books? Maybe someone around here has a theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 12:03 PM, Matt Teel wrote:\nThanks Adam.\n\nI did find those things in the archives (the reference to Borges is\nespecially interesting to me). But I'm thinking all of that is pretty\nself-referential, and that surely there is some reason from *within the\nstory* for the existence of this scene: some plot piece put into place, for\nexample, that I'm missing.\n\nEvery scene in a book generally has a number of things going on. While\nWolfe's own Hitchcock-like appearance, and the reference to Borges, are\ninteresting, I have a hunch they aren't the *reason* for the scene. And\nthat's what's really got me stumped.\n\nThanks again! I appreciate your taking the time.\n\nMatt\n\n--- On *Mon, 9/29/08, Adam Thornton * wrote:\n\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) a lurker asks a question" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20080930003351.GA1310@craft>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-30T00:33:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<404259.89423.qm@web59604.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2008.09.29 09:03:48 -0700, Matt Teel scribbled 4.4K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Thanks Adam.\n\n I did find those things in the archives (the reference to Borges is especially interesting to\n me). But I'm thinking all of that is pretty self-referential, and that surely there is some\n reason from *within the story* for the existence of this scene: some plot piece put into\n place, for example, that I'm missing.\n\n Every scene in a book generally has a number of things going on. While Wolfe's own\n Hitchcock-like appearance, and the reference to Borges, are interesting, I have a hunch they\n aren't the *reason* for the scene. And that's what's really got me stumped.\n\n Thanks again! I appreciate your taking the time.\n\n Matt" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always taken this scene as serving several purposes.\n\nFor starters, it is just absolutely awesome & gorgeous writing for me, some of the best in the tetralogy. The whole reason I first came to care about Gene Wolfe's fiction was because I happened to pick up _Shadow of the Torturer_ in the library and read through the beginning to the Ultan scene. When I finished it, I closed the book and silently added it and all the other Wolfe books there to my pile of check-outs.\n\nBesides being brilliant, it also hammers in the Dying Earth theme, which is certainly useful.\n\nThe third justification is that I believe this scene is necessary to explain how Severian obtains _The Wonders of Urth and Sky_ (and we all know how Gene loves to be consistent and logical with the small things); _Wonders_ is going to be a useful plot device for conversations and inserted fables/short-stories (each of which has multiple justifications, and are topics in and of themselves), so it might as well be early on where it supports Thecla's interest in intellectual matters.\n\nAs it happens, I am currently reading the collection of Wolfe interviews _Shadows of the New Sun_, and in it Wolfe says something along the lines of 'Severian is an intellectual who doesn't know he's an intellectual', which accords with Thecla and Severian's conversations.\n\n(Wolfe also mentions Borges as a favorite writer 3 or 4 times, and I think twice explicitly says Ultan was a nod to him.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nMontenegro Glock ISI Sayeret CBOT BATF chameleon Visa/BCC IACIS UPI" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10809291741g5eae01f8l861b5353ef583aa0@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-30T00:41:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<20080930003351.GA1310@craft>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\n\n\nAs it happens, I am currently reading the collection of Wolfe interviews\n_Shadows of the New Sun_, and in it Wolfe says something along the lines of\n'Severian is an intellectual who doesn't know he's an intellectual', which\naccords with Thecla and Severian's conversations.\n\n(Wolfe also mentions Borges as a favorite writer 3 or 4 times, and I think\ntwice explicitly says Ultan was a nod to him.)\n\n--\ngwern\nMontenegro Glock ISI Sayeret CBOT BATF chameleon Visa/BCC IACIS UPI" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great post. Perhaps Borges was the \"real\" reason for the scene - I can't\nthink of anywhere else in The Book of the New Sun where such a scene with a\nBorges analogue would fit quite so well, though of course there are plenty\nof other Borges references in New Sun (i.e. Baldanders).\n\nI wonder if there are any similar scenes in other works that influenced\nWolfe? I, Claudius maybe? Or could it be something leftover from an earlier\nversion of the story? Perhaps it was important to the novella \"The Feast of\nSt. Catherine?\" I gather that story focused a lot on writing? Or maybe I'm\nwrong - I don't have my \"references\" (i.e. Castle of Days) with me at\nschool.\n\n-Matt, idly speculating\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48E1B988.2060603@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-09-30T05:30:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aaron wrote:\nI can think of at least one reason for Severian's meeting Ultan, and \nthat is their discussion of the Alzabo and the sharing of consciousness \nwith the use of the analeptic alzabo. But, like you, I feel there is \nsomething more I am missing. The beginning of the chapter is a good \nexample, when Sev mentions that he felt as if he and Ultan were both \nburied or something close to that. What does he really mean by this and \nwhen is it echoed later in the books? Maybe someone around here has a \ntheory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Much of the Citadel complex is underground. In particular, the art \ngalleries run as far as the House Absolute, which is entirely \nunderground, and Hypogeum Apotropaic can be read as \"underground \nbunker\". It is very likely that Severian meets Master Ultan in a tunnel, \npossibly a stretch of catacomb repurposed to house books instead of bodies." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9810F13BE98C4150848CCF5358CDC460@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-30T12:19:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<620232.4000.qm@web59612.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matt asks:\nI love this scene, but other than the need for Severian to get the books for Thecla, \nI'm wondering what the Point is...What does this chapter contribute to the story?\n...What am I missing? Surely there's more to it than that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When people mention to me that they feel something is going on under the floorboards in this scene, I always direct them to this clause:\n\n\"...quite suddenly I felt that he and I were dead, and the darkness surrounding us was grave soil presing in about our eyes...\"\n\nThere is something being declared here in a Lupean way -- narratively or character development-wise -- but I'll be danged if I know what it is.\n\nJ\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Matt Teel \n To: urth at lists.urth.net \n Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:34 AM\n Subject: (urth) a lurker asks a question\n\n\n Hello all. I'm emerging from underneath my rock to ask a question. \n\n I've read and re-read and re-re-read Book of the New Sun, and part of the fun is figuring out how each chapter, each scene, contributes to the whole. That's hardest with the earlier chapters, I find, and particularly with Chapter VI: The Master of the Curators. \n\n Thanks.\n\n Matt \n\n\n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5F4A95D225ED4962B302D0778077BC0C@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-30T13:03:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<48E1B988.2060603@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "aaron wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But, like you, I feel there is something more I am missing. The beginning \nof the chapter is a good example, when Sev mentions that he felt as if he \nand Ultan were both buried or something close to that. What does he \nreally mean by this and when is it echoed later in the books?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson said: Much of the Citadel complex is underground. It is very \nlikely that Severian meets Master Ultan in a tunnel, possibly a stretch of \ncatacomb repurposed to house books instead of bodies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess the dead and buried sentence was already discussed. But Jeff's \nexplanation doesn't really do it for me.\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-09-30T14:55:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<9810F13BE98C4150848CCF5358CDC460@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sep 30, 2008, at 7:19 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nMatt asks:\nI love this scene, but other than the need for Severian to get the \nbooks for Thecla,\nI'm wondering what the Point is...What does this chapter contribute \nto the story?\n...What am I missing? Surely there's more to it than that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When people mention to me that they feel something is going on under \nthe floorboards in this scene, I always direct them to this clause:\n\n\"...quite suddenly I felt that he and I were dead, and the darkness \nsurrounding us was grave soil presing in about our eyes...\"\n\nThere is something being declared here in a Lupean way -- \nnarratively or character development-wise -- but I'll be danged if I \nknow what it is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somewhere--and I don't remember where--Severian also recoils when \nseeing a particular book, because it seems to him like he's suddenly \nrun across a rotting corpse. Can someone point that citation out? I \nthink that ties in here somewhere too.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1a0930df0809301418j6a60e180y14f8e85a90f0c66c@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Duncan Truter", "address": "dtruter at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-30T21:18:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "start quote\n-----------------------\nDate: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:55:23 -0500\nFrom: Adam Thornton \nSubject: Re: (urth) a lurker asks a question\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"us-ascii\"; Format=\"flowed\";\n DelSp=\"yes\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sep 30, 2008, at 7:19 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nMatt asks:\nI love this scene, but other than the need for Severian to get the\nbooks for Thecla,\nI'm wondering what the Point is...What does this chapter contribute\nto the story?\n...What am I missing? Surely there's more to it than that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When people mention to me that they feel something is going on under\nthe floorboards in this scene, I always direct them to this clause:\n\n\"...quite suddenly I felt that he and I were dead, and the darkness\nsurrounding us was grave soil presing in about our eyes...\"\n\nThere is something being declared here in a Lupean way --\nnarratively or character development-wise -- but I'll be danged if I\nknow what it is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somewhere--and I don't remember where--Severian also recoils when\nseeing a particular book, because it seems to him like he's suddenly\nrun across a rotting corpse. Can someone point that citation out? I\nthink that ties in here somewhere too.\n\nAdam\n\n--------------------End quote\n\nIs this maybe something to do with the fact that one of the books\nSeverian picks up is The Book Of The New Sun (it is, isn't it?) this\ncould be why he feels he's already dead: the book is a book of his\nlife that he wrote, which for him hasn't happened yet but in the book\nit already has, and the book is there. This may be the book he recoils\nfrom later?\n\nDuncan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10809301528n7e789c2bpd3590fdbbeb0d022@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-30T22:28:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<1a0930df0809301418j6a60e180y14f8e85a90f0c66c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 30, 2008, at 7:19 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"...quite suddenly I felt that he and I were dead, and the darkness\nsurrounding us was grave soil presing in about our eyes...\"\n\nThere is something being declared here in a Lupean way --\nnarratively or character development-wise -- but I'll be danged if I\nknow what it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Somewhere--and I don't remember where--Severian also recoils when\nseeing a particular book, because it seems to him like he's suddenly\nrun across a rotting corpse. Can someone point that citation out? I\nthink that ties in here somewhere too.\n\nAdam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't there at least one book bound in human skin in The Book of the New\nSun? (In The Claw of the Conciliator, I think) Perhaps Sev's Conciliatory\npowers would allow him to (subconsciously) realize the nature of such a book\nin Ultan's library?\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3e1fa2e90809301545w5267ad78jf7b5361bfa6e80f4@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-09-30T22:45:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<1a0930df0809301418j6a60e180y14f8e85a90f0c66c@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, that's not factually accurate. The other BotNS was likely written in\nthe Conciliator's time by Severian's fellow prisoner, and has avowedly been\nlost by the time when Severian is an apprentice in the Citadel.\n\nI like the catacomb explanation just fine personally, and I never had much\nreason to want anything more from that chapter than the scenery it\npresented.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Duncan Truter wrote:\n\nIs this maybe something to do with the fact that one of the books\nSeverian picks up is The Book Of The New Sun (it is, isn't it?) this\ncould be why he feels he's already dead: the book is a book of his\nlife that he wrote, which for him hasn't happened yet but in the book\nit already has, and the book is there. This may be the book he recoils\nfrom later?\n\nDuncan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48E3002D.5070308@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-10-01T04:44:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Sep 30, 2008, at 7:19 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Matt asks:\nI love this scene, but other than the need for Severian to get the books for Thecla,\nI'm wondering what the Point is...What does this chapter contribute to the story?\n...What am I missing? Surely there's more to it than that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " \nWhen people mention to me that they feel something is going on under \nthe floorboards in this scene, I always direct them to this clause:\n \n\"...quite suddenly I felt that he and I were dead, and the darkness \nsurrounding us was grave soil presing in about our eyes...\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A page after meeting Rudesind, Sev procceds to Ultan's study via an \nunrailed circular stair that descends at least 20 feet into darkness. He \nalso passes some columns sculpted with \"sleeping\" faces. Upon meeting \nUltan, he remarks to himself on Ultan's beard like a whitish garment and \nhis extreme age, before discovering the man is blind, precipitating the \nmeditation on feeling dead. A bit later, Ultan calls both Sev and Cyby \nyoung men, despite Sev estimating Cyby being in his forties. This could \nbe a reflection on Ultan's very long exultant lifespan, or that Ultan's \nperception of passing time ended with his sight. He is living in the \npast, thus he has ceased living in the present.\n\nInternally, this may just be Sev's reaction to the general creepiness of \nthe situation. Extrenally, it may represent a burial in the years and \nages gone by. (Ultan recalls the blossoming trees on the curators' feast \nday in the now treeless Grand Court.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Somewhere--and I don't remember where--Severian also recoils when seeing \na particular book, because it seems to him like he's suddenly run across \na rotting corpse. Can someone point that citation out? I think that \nties in here somewhere too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like the citation as well, please." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<26b0d2e40809302308s71834b8ete1a5c7b3b7976d70@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Steve McCann", "address": "steve2mccann at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-01T06:08:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<48E3002D.5070308@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A quick run through the chapter *The Master of the Curators* in SotT and I'm\nnot seeing this citation, even though I thought I had remembered it as well.\nWas the book in Baldanders castle? But I did run across this passage:\n\n\"I opened the book at random and read, '... by which means a picture might\nbe graven with such skill that the whole of it, should it be destroyed,\nmight be recreated from a small part, and that small part might be any\npart.'\nI suppose it was the word *graven* that suggested to me the events I had\nwitnessed on the night I had received my chrisos.\" pg. 46 S&C\n\nI'm not finding \"chrisos\" in the OED or via google, but the context reminds\nme strongly of the eucharist. Before this scene Ultan spoke of his time\nwaiting for his master to die, so he could take his place as Librarian. All\nof this foreshadows Sevs becoming the Autarch, so my guess is that the\nfunction of the chapter is put this possibility in play.\n-s" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:44 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nSomewhere--and I don't remember where--Severian also recoils when seeing a\nparticular book, because it seems to him like he's suddenly run across a\nrotting corpse. Can someone point that citation out? I think that ties in\nhere somewhere too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd like the citation as well, please." } ] }, { "message_id": "<48E3271D.6070704@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-10-01T07:30:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<26b0d2e40809302308s71834b8ete1a5c7b3b7976d70@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Steve McCann wrote:\nA quick run through the chapter _The Master of the Curators_ in SotT and \nI'm not seeing this citation, even though I thought I had remembered it \nas well. Was the book in Baldanders castle? But I did run across this \npassage:\n\n\"I opened the book at random and read, '... by which means a picture \nmight be graven with such skill that the whole of it, should it be \ndestroyed, might be recreated from a small part, and that small part \nmight be any part.'\nI suppose it was the word /graven/ that suggested to me the events I had \nwitnessed on the night I had received my chrisos.\" pg. 46 S&C\n\nI'm not finding \"chrisos\" in the OED or via google, but the context \nreminds me strongly of the eucharist. Before this scene Ultan spoke of \nhis time waiting for his master to die, so he could take his place as \nLibrarian. All of this foreshadows Sevs becoming the Autarch, so my \nguess is that the function of the chapter is put this possibility in play.\n-s" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The chrisos is the coin Vodalus gave him.\n\nThere is a bit of Autarch succession nearby, in that a circular room of \nbooks has been kept for three centuries pending the return of Autarch \nSulpicius." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20081001105955.C1C8F48043@diego.dreamhost.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar / UKG", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-10-01T10:59:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<48E3271D.6070704@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:30 01/10/2008, Jeff wrote:\nThe chrisos is the coin Vodalus gave him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From the Greek chrysos, gold. Although it may also be a play on the \nEnglish root chris-, meaning to do with anointment, from the Greek \nchrisai (to anoint) which also of course gives Christos. I don't have \nenough Greek to know whether the two roots are related in that \nlanguage or if it's just a coincidence.\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki now at:\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-01T13:33:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<26b0d2e40809302308s71834b8ete1a5c7b3b7976d70@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Somewhere--and I don't remember where--Severian also recoils when\nseeing a particular book, because it seems to him like he's suddenly run\nacross a rotting corpse. Can someone point that >citation out? I think\nthat ties in here somewhere too. I'd like the citation as well, please." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The citation is Claw chapter 21. It is during Sev's discussion with the \nandrogyne. The book is the one with mirrors for pages. Personally, Sev's \nreaction doesn't give me the same feeling as the comment about himself and \nUltan." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5D4365B3-2979-4932-B53F-798BF7338024@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-10-01T14:22:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<26b0d2e40809302308s71834b8ete1a5c7b3b7976d70@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 1, 2008, at 1:08 AM, Steve McCann wrote:\nA quick run through the chapter The Master of the Curators in SotT \nand I'm not seeing this citation, even though I thought I had \nremembered it as well. Was the book in Baldanders castle? But I did \nrun across this passage:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it's in _Master of the Curators_.\n\nI'm not convinced it's even in the New Sun books, actually.\n\nBut the passage you quoted:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I opened the book at random and read, '... by which means a picture \nmight be graven with such skill that the whole of it, should it be \ndestroyed, might be recreated from a small part, and that small part \nmight be any part.'\nI suppose it was the word graven that suggested to me the events I \nhad witnessed on the night I had received my chrisos.\" pg. 46 S&C" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's Wolfe messing with us again.\n\nOf course it's not \"graven\" that's the key, at least not to anyone but \nSeverian. It's the holographic nature of this memory storage device, \nand the fact that the analeptic alzabo lets you eat a tiny part of \nsomeone's brain and then subsume his or her memories and personality.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8476d0320810011327n9460a83n1d3b30d65893bb1a@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Bruce Hayles", "address": "brucehayles at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-01T20:27:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<5D4365B3-2979-4932-B53F-798BF7338024@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gwern mentioned an interview with Gene Wolfe saying that Severian is an\nintellectual that doesn't know he is an intellectual. \"It's a pity you are a\ntorturer, \" Ultan said. \"You might have been a philosopher...\" on pg 47.\nReading Severian's narrative, I can't help but think he is an intellectual;\nbut his narrative never really reveals that he thinks of himself as such\n(consistent with the quote from Wolfe). I don't recall specific instances,\nbut Severian does think of himself as dense. For example, when he cannot\nexplain why the claw only heals at certain times he thinks himself slow. So\nmaybe this chapter serves to validate the idea that Severian is an\nintellectual by showing that other people (Ultan) think so.\n\nAlong the same line, the chapter points out of incongruity of Severian as a\ntorturer. We are forced to compare Cyby and Severian. On pg 45 Ultan\ndescribes the process whereby apprentices are selected. \"He hesistated, and\nthough I could discern no expression on his face, I received the impression\nthat he feared what he was about to say might cause Cyby pain.\" And\nafterwards, when Severian says that the guild takes such children as they\ncan, Ultan mutters, \"We do the same.\" The implication seems to be that Cyby\nis a less than ideal apprentice. This combined with Ultan's previous\nobservation of Severian's intellectualism seems to suggest an alternate\nreality in which Severian was an apprentice to the librarian. I would like\nto draw this out further by saying that Cyby is incurious and would make a\ngood torturer, but I do not see any evidence for it in the text (perhaps I\nmissed it.)\n\nAnother purpose of the chapter is to show the internal conflict Severian is\nhaving between his pledge to Vodalus and his duty to his guild. He asks\nSeverian whose apprentice he is, and Severian hesitates (long enough for\nUltan to actually repeat his question) and recalls the scene with Vodalus.\nClearly Severian has yet to come to terms with his acceptance of the chrisos\n(the pledge to Vodalus) and his duty to the guild." } ] }, { "message_id": "<26b0d2e40810011347l87b7ea8i8507e2d69b51bfea@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Steve McCann", "address": "steve2mccann at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-01T20:47:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<5D4365B3-2979-4932-B53F-798BF7338024@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems that the only way graven could be important here is if the Alzabo\nwas a beast engineered to afford the transference of past lives.\n-s" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 8:22 AM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nHere's Wolfe messing with us again.\n\nOf course it's not \"graven\" that's the key, at least not to anyone but\nSeverian. It's the holographic nature of this memory storage device, and\nthe fact that the analeptic alzabo lets you eat a tiny part of someone's\nbrain and then subsume his or her memories and personality.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<99CA86E2-92A5-4D1E-AD90-D34F62D7BFFA@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-10-01T21:42:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<26b0d2e40810011347l87b7ea8i8507e2d69b51bfea@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 1, 2008, at 3:47 PM, Steve McCann wrote:\nIt seems that the only way graven could be important here is if the \nAlzabo was a beast engineered to afford the transference of past \nlives." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "....\n\nHuh.\n\nAnd here I'd always assumed that eating someone's BRAAAAAAAIN and \ntaking over their memory and personality would simply be a competitive \nadvantage in eating their families, as we see in _Sword_.\n\nBRAAAAAINS. Wolfe's got 'em.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20081003195043.GC15891@craft>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-03T19:50:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10809291741g5eae01f8l861b5353ef583aa0@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2008.09.29 20:41:15 -0400, Matthew Keeley scribbled 3.6K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Great post. Perhaps Borges was the \"real\" reason for the scene - I can't think of anywhere\n else in The Book of the New Sun where such a scene with a Borges analogue would fit quite so\n well, though of course there are plenty of other Borges references in New Sun (i.e.\n Baldanders)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We may never know, unless someone asks him 'Did you write that scene really because you just like Borges a lot and it's a nice scene?'\n\nAlthough I've always found Baldanders a bit odd - I looked him up in my copy of the Borges bestiary and I don't see much of a connection. If anything, the alzabo is much closer to Borges's Baldanders than Wolfe's Baldanders." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I wonder if there are any similar scenes in other works that influenced Wolfe? I, Claudius\n maybe? Or could it be something leftover from an earlier version of the story? Perhaps it was\n important to the novella \"The Feast of St. Catherine?\" I gather that story focused a lot on\n writing? Or maybe I'm wrong - I don't have my \"references\" (i.e. Castle of Days) with me at\n school.\n -Matt, idly speculating" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dunno. I don't remember the descriptions I've seen of the novella focusing a lot on writing, but I didn't pay much attention to it. Has anyone here read it or know much about it?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nArmani rounds World 7NL Medco Bunny Consul TECS ssor SBI" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20081003200200.GA17230@craft>", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-03T20:02:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<8476d0320810011327n9460a83n1d3b30d65893bb1a@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 2008.10.01 16:27:51 -0400, Bruce Hayles scribbled 4.7K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Gwern mentioned an interview with Gene Wolfe saying that Severian is an intellectual that\n doesn't know he is an intellectual. \"It's a pity you are a torturer, \" Ultan said. \"You might\n have been a philosopher...\" on pg 47. Reading Severian's narrative, I can't help but think he\n is an intellectual; but his narrative never really reveals that he thinks of himself as such\n (consistent with the quote from Wolfe). I don't recall specific instances, but Severian does\n think of himself as dense. For example, when he cannot explain why the claw only heals at\n certain times he thinks himself slow. So maybe this chapter serves to validate the idea that\n Severian is an intellectual by showing that other people (Ultan) think so.\n\n Along the same line, the chapter points out of incongruity of Severian as a torturer. We are\n forced to compare Cyby and Severian. On pg 45 Ultan describes the process whereby apprentices\n are selected. \"He hesistated, and though I could discern no expression on his face, I received\n the impression that he feared what he was about to say might cause Cyby pain.\" And afterwards,\n when Severian says that the guild takes such children as they can, Ultan mutters, \"We do the\n same.\" The implication seems to be that Cyby is a less than ideal apprentice. This combined\n with Ultan's previous observation of Severian's intellectualism seems to suggest an alternate\n reality in which Severian was an apprentice to the librarian. I would like to draw this out\n further by saying that Cyby is incurious and would make a good torturer, but I do not see any\n evidence for it in the text (perhaps I missed it.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nHm, but how would this Librarian-past work? The librarians only take young children who read so much they find the Book of Gold; so would this past be one in which Severian was not taken by the torturers and in which he lived in the citadel regardless? Or could he still have been taken by the torturers but found his way to the Book of Gold and then taken by the librarians?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nArmani rounds World 7NL Medco Bunny Consul TECS ssor SBI" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8476d0320810031355n363403c0o1b6ab5d383183dee@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Bruce Hayles", "address": "brucehayles at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-03T20:55:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) a lurker asks a question", "in_reply_to": "<20081003200200.GA17230@craft>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't mean \"alternate reality\" literally. I mean that were circumstances\ndifferent for Severian you can see him being a good librarian. That is, if\nSeverian had different parents and lived in the citadel and he ended up\nreading a lot in the library, perhaps he would have been taken as an\napprentice of the librarians. The guild (if I remember correctly) takes\norphans (such as they can get) small enough that their heads are below the\nphallus of some statue. I don't think Severian could be taken by the\nlibrarians while being an apprentice torturer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn 2008.10.01 16:27:51 -0400, Bruce Hayles \nscribbled 4.7K characters:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Gwern mentioned an interview with Gene Wolfe saying that Severian is\nan intellectual that\n doesn't know he is an intellectual. \"It's a pity you are a torturer, \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ultan said. \"You might\n have been a philosopher...\" on pg 47. Reading Severian's narrative, I\ncan't help but think he\n is an intellectual; but his narrative never really reveals that he\nthinks of himself as such\n (consistent with the quote from Wolfe). I don't recall specific\ninstances, but Severian does\n think of himself as dense. For example, when he cannot explain why the\nclaw only heals at\n certain times he thinks himself slow. So maybe this chapter serves to\nvalidate the idea that\n Severian is an intellectual by showing that other people (Ultan) think\nso." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Along the same line, the chapter points out of incongruity of Severian\nas a torturer. We are\n forced to compare Cyby and Severian. On pg 45 Ultan describes the\nprocess whereby apprentices\n are selected. \"He hesistated, and though I could discern no expression\non his face, I received\n the impression that he feared what he was about to say might cause\nCyby pain.\" And afterwards,\n when Severian says that the guild takes such children as they can,\nUltan mutters, \"We do the\n same.\" The implication seems to be that Cyby is a less than ideal\napprentice. This combined\n with Ultan's previous observation of Severian's intellectualism seems\nto suggest an alternate\n reality in which Severian was an apprentice to the librarian. I would\nlike to draw this out\n further by saying that Cyby is incurious and would make a good\ntorturer, but I do not see any\n evidence for it in the text (perhaps I missed it.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nHm, but how would this Librarian-past work? The librarians only take young\nchildren who read so much they find the Book of Gold; so would this past be\none in which Severian was not taken by the torturers and in which he lived\nin the citadel regardless? Or could he still have been taken by the\ntorturers but found his way to the Book of Gold and then taken by the\nlibrarians?\n\n--\ngwern\nArmani rounds World 7NL Medco Bunny Consul TECS ssor SBI\n\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nVersion: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)\n\niEYEAREKAAYFAkjmejgACgkQvpDo5Pfl1oKKoQCfeuMe2jomCiH9WBi7PyjQL6+e\nQ6cAn1zTXrdi2bSsyNRXZEOXRuwpGBoW\n=YMpV\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10810041039s1d1bbe8dg35a43c9eefe84a45@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-04T17:39:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) To Serve Man in Woldercan -- SPOILERS", "in_reply_to": "<464773.49880.qm@web32404.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 5:57 PM, don doggett wrote:\n\nImo, Wolfe very deliberately refers to a hopper as a flier. They escape\ngravity in a similar manner, too. It's interesting that Reiss draws the U.S.\nNavy into a conflict with the Squid God/Cthulhu/Abaia(?). Could that\nencounter be prelude to the Ascian empire? I also wonder if the Takanga\ngroup is actually on earth.\n\nDon" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, \"hoppers\" also tie into \"Memorare.\" I even recall a line about\nthe moons of Jupiter in An Evil Guest?\n\nRe: Takanga group: Well, Wolfe does go to great lengths to set out a\ngeographical location for it (near Australia), but it does seem rather\notherworldly, and I suppose Cthulhu could mess about with space-time a bit.\nAnd the Navy can sail there - perhaps it's a bit like the Bermuda Triangle?\n\nSome part of me wonders if the US Navy could take on the Squid God. They\nseem to be losing when we see them fight, but they could always come back\nwith bigger guns (i.e, nukes) - though I wouldn't want to see what happens\nif Great C. got his tentacles on those... I must say, I lost some sympathy\nfor Reis when he tricks the Navy into fighting Cthulhu unprepared... He has\nhis reasons, but he's a bit of a bastard nonetheless.\n\nOn an unrelated note, has anyone looked into Le Fanu's The Evil Guest yet?\nWas the Irish horror writer an influence on HPL?\n\n-Matt" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48E7BBAE.7090407@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvêa", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2008-10-04T18:53:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) To Serve Man in Woldercan -- SPOILERS", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10810041039s1d1bbe8dg35a43c9eefe84a45@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Keeley wrote:\nRe: Takanga group: Well, Wolfe does go to great lengths to set out a \ngeographical location for it (near Australia), but it does seem rather \notherworldly, and I suppose Cthulhu could mess about with space-time a \nbit. And the Navy can sail there - perhaps it's a bit like the Bermuda \nTriangle?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is an island near New Zealand called Takangaroa... From the \nWikipedia entry, one guesses that Takanga might be Maori for \"net\".\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College Editor, MAA FOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/19/\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n\nQ: How did you get into artificial intelligence?\nA: Seemed logical -- I didn't have any real intelligence." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-10-05T09:03:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Nuking Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10810041039s1d1bbe8dg35a43c9eefe84a45@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matthew Keeley writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some part of me wonders if the US Navy could take on the Squid God. They\nseem to be losing when we see them fight, but they could always come back\nwith bigger guns (i.e, nukes) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you nuke Cthulhu he reforms in five minutes \n\n - but now he's radioactive!!! \n\nChaosium CALL OF CTHULHU rules. \n\n\nhartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<749760.59685.qm@web63908.mail.re1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "recursive_loop at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-10-05T11:42:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Nuking Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "August Derleth nuked Cthulhu in one of his novels. I'd tell you which one, but some rat busturd stole it from me...\n\nF.P. Kiesche III \"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children and TexasBestGrok!\n\n--- On Sun, 10/5/08, Andy Robertson wrote:\nFrom: Andy Robertson \nSubject: Re: (urth) Nuking Cthulhu\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 5:03 AM\n\nMatthew Keeley writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some part of me wonders if the US Navy could take on the Squid God. They\nseem to be losing when we see them fight, but they could always come back\nwith bigger guns (i.e, nukes) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you nuke Cthulhu he reforms in five minutes \n\n - but now he's radioactive!!! \n\nChaosium CALL OF CTHULHU rules. \n\n\nhartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-08T16:49:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Nuking Cthulhu", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read the book yet, but if there is some kind of conflict between\ncthulu and the US military, then shame on you for spoiling it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 5:03 AM, Andy Robertson\nwrote:\nMatthew Keeley writes:\n\n Some part of me wonders if the US Navy could take on the Squid God. They\nseem to be losing when we see them fight, but they could always come back\nwith bigger guns (i.e, nukes)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you nuke Cthulhu he reforms in five minutes\n- but now he's radioactive!!!\nChaosium CALL OF CTHULHU rules.\n\nhartshorn\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }