{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5166", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5166, "subject": "\"My father's mounted guard\"", "messages": 18, "voices": 12, "first": "2008-10-08T17:07:33+00:00", "last": "2008-10-21T15:13:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bennewitz", "address": "witz at trog.org" }, "date": "2008-10-08T17:07:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Claw chap XXV, Severian is having life memories before he falls asleep.\nwhile there is obviously the potential for Thecla memories to intermix here, this following passage is still confusing:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen curtain wall, as Thecla dodged the hooves of my father's mounted guard.\"\n\nWho's Father?\n\nDo any of the other 'interruptions' from Thecla's memory happen mid sentence like this? I searched the archives and found that this was suggested.\nI find it problematic that the narrative voice would change in mid sentence. \nEven if the memory is Thecla's why would she be dodging the feet of her father's guard?\n\nIS this tidbit pointing to Severian's father as Autarch or some other Exultant family?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<44fb53d10810081159v5a2017e4raa483351287304a2@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew Keeley", "address": "matthew.keeley.1 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-08T18:59:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it's any help, this particular sentence has been discussed before:\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0019/0025.shtml\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Bennewitz wrote:\nIn Claw chap XXV, Severian is having life memories before he falls asleep.\nwhile there is obviously the potential for Thecla memories to intermix\nhere, this following passage is still confusing:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen curtain\nwall, as Thecla dodged the hooves of my father's mounted guard.\"\n\nWho's Father?\n\nDo any of the other 'interruptions' from Thecla's memory happen mid\nsentence like this? I searched the archives and found that this was\nsuggested.\nI find it problematic that the narrative voice would change in mid\nsentence.\nEven if the memory is Thecla's why would she be dodging the feet of her\nfather's guard?\n\nIS this tidbit pointing to Severian's father as Autarch or some other\nExultant family?\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bennewitz", "address": "witz at trog.org" }, "date": "2008-10-08T19:26:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "<44fb53d10810081159v5a2017e4raa483351287304a2@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If it's any help, this particular sentence has been discussed before:\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0019/0025.shtml\n-Matt" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks. Yes, I saw that. I'm not sure I buy the change of character mid sentence. Seems like some clue to me." } ] }, { "message_id": "<48ED77BF.5060101@mindspring.com>", "from": { "name": "Henry Eissler", "address": "henryeissleriii at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2008-10-09T03:17:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Bennewitz wrote:\nIf it's any help, this particular sentence has been discussed before:\nhttp://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0019/0025.shtml\n-Matt\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks. Yes, I saw that. I'm not sure I buy the change of character mid sentence. Seems like some clue to me.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I'll second that. At least it seems odd.\n And it doesn't seem likely that Thecla would have to dodge the \nmounts of her own father's guard. It would seem more likely that \nthey're another exultant's or the Autarch's.\n Do you happen to remember any mention of how old Thecla was when she \nwas brought to the House Absolute?\n And isn't it fairly certain that Ouen was Severian's father?\n ---H" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48ED934F.4010208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-10-09T05:14:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bennewitz wrote:\nIn Claw chap XXV, Severian is having life memories before he falls asleep.\nwhile there is obviously the potential for Thecla memories to intermix here, this following passage is still confusing:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen curtain wall, as Thecla dodged the hooves of my father's mounted guard.\"\n\nWho's Father?\n\nDo any of the other 'interruptions' from Thecla's memory happen mid sentence like this? I searched the archives and found that this was suggested.\nI find it problematic that the narrative voice would change in mid sentence. \nEven if the memory is Thecla's why would she be dodging the feet of her father's guard?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's likely that Thecla here is a typo for her sister's name \nThea. But the really interesting thing is not only is Thecla's memory \nroused to the first person at the time of the original reverie, but \napparently manifests once again years later during the writing of the \nmanuscript." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<511AF0FD96B44223AE79F3E3ABF4F6E8@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-09T13:45:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "<48ED934F.4010208@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Bennewitz wrote:\nIn Claw chap XXV, Severian is having life memories before he falls \nasleep.\nwhile there is obviously the potential for Thecla memories to intermix \nhere, this following >>>passage is still confusing:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the courtyard beside the fallen curtain \nwall, as Thecla dodged\nthe hooves of my father's mounted guard.\"\n\nWho's Father?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do any of the other 'interruptions' from Thecla's memory happen mid \nsentence like this? I searched the archives and found that this was \nsuggested.\nI find it problematic that the narrative voice would change in mid \nsentence. Even if the memory is Thecla's why would she be dodging the \nfeet of her father's guard?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson said:\nI think it's likely that Thecla here is a typo for her sister's name Thea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If it were a typo, then it has been replicated across multiple editions. I \nthink one needs a significant evidence before settling on the typo \nexplanation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the really interesting thing is not only is Thecla's memory roused to \nthe first person at the time of the original reverie, but apparently \nmanifests once again years later during the writing of the manuscript." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thecla's memory (and as Wolfe seems to see it, her conscious identity) is \nalways there. As in The Book of the Short Sun, the author is not a single \nperson.\nJ. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-09T16:16:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "<48ED934F.4010208@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Bennewitz," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday 8 October 2008, you wrote:\nIn Claw chap XXV, Severian is having life\nmemories before he falls asleep. while\nthere is obviously the potential for Thecla\nmemories to intermix here, this following\npassage is still confusing:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the court-\nyard beside the fallen curtain wall, as\nThecla dodged the hooves of my father's\nmounted guard.\"\n\n. . . Even if the memory is Thecla's why\nwould she be dodging the feet of her\nfather's guard?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's because she's a small child and has gotten underfoot, as small\nchildren do. Presumably it depends on whether the memories are from\nSeverian and Thecla at the same age, or Severian and Thecla at the\nsame time. (Has anybody raised this point before? Is it even\ninteresting for our purposes? Do we know how much, if at all, older\nThecla is than Severian? I've always assumed that she is older, but\non examining that assumption I find that there's no real support for\nit. She could easily be Severian's age.) If they're the same age,\nshe's probably too young to know better. If the memories are from the\nsame time and she's older, she may have been acting under what in our\nday is the common horse-infatuation of young girls--I imagine it still\nholds with Urth girls and destriers.\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<74880431.20081014185019@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanisław Bocian", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2008-10-14T16:50:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello!\n\nOn 9 pa?dziernika 2008, Mark Millman wrote:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the court-\nyard beside the fallen curtain wall, as\nThecla dodged the hooves of my father's\nmounted guard.\"\n\nThat sentence is perfectly constructed. Severian has in his head\nmemories both his own and of Thecla. He begins by recalling his own childhood (I played again with pebbles in the court-\nyard beside the fallen curtain wall), which transits seamlessly into\nmemories of Thecla's childhood, but still recalled from the point of\nview of Severian (as Thecla dodged the hooves). Finally, it\n transits into Thecla's memory seen from her point of view\n(of my father's mounted guard). This shows that the artificial\nmemories have become mingled with his own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dear Bennewitz," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday 8 October 2008, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In Claw chap XXV, Severian is having life\nmemories before he falls asleep. while\nthere is obviously the potential for Thecla\nmemories to intermix here, this following\npassage is still confusing:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the court-\nyard beside the fallen curtain wall, as\nThecla dodged the hooves of my father's\nmounted guard.\"\n\n. . . Even if the memory is Thecla's why\nwould she be dodging the feet of her\nfather's guard?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's because she's a small child and has gotten underfoot, as small\nchildren do. Presumably it depends on whether the memories are from\nSeverian and Thecla at the same age, or Severian and Thecla at the\nsame time. (Has anybody raised this point before? Is it even\ninteresting for our purposes? Do we know how much, if at all, older\nThecla is than Severian? I've always assumed that she is older, but\non examining that assumption I find that there's no real support for\nit. She could easily be Severian's age.) If they're the same age,\nshe's probably too young to know better. If the memories are from the\nsame time and she's older, she may have been acting under what in our\nday is the common horse-infatuation of young girls--I imagine it still\nholds with Urth girls and destriers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mark Millman\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48F4CEFA.9070102@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-10-14T16:55:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "<74880431.20081014185019@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stanis?aw Bocian wrote:\nHello!\n\nOn 9 pa?dziernika 2008, Mark Millman wrote:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the court-\nyard beside the fallen curtain wall, as\nThecla dodged the hooves of my father's\nmounted guard.\"\n\nThat sentence is perfectly constructed. Severian has in his head\nmemories both his own and of Thecla. He begins by recalling his own childhood (I played again with pebbles in the court-\nyard beside the fallen curtain wall), which transits seamlessly into\nmemories of Thecla's childhood, but still recalled from the point of\nview of Severian (as Thecla dodged the hooves). Finally, it\n transits into Thecla's memory seen from her point of view\n(of my father's mounted guard). This shows that the artificial\nmemories have become mingled with his own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But why have those two memories in particular become entwined? Neither \nknew the other as a child, neither played in the other's play places, \nthey probably weren't even toddlers at the same time." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-10-14T16:58:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "<48F4CEFA.9070102@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've come to agree with this perspective.\nHowever, if there are other such sentances in the first two books, I must have missed them. Has anyone another such example?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Stanis?aw Bocian [mailto:sbocian at poczta.fm]\nSent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 09:50 AM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"\n\nHello!\n\nOn 9 pa?dziernika 2008, Mark Millman wrote:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the court-\nyard beside the fallen curtain wall, as\nThecla dodged the hooves of my father's\nmounted guard.\"\n\nThat sentence is perfectly constructed. Severian has in his head\nmemories both his own and of Thecla. He begins by recalling his own childhood (I played again with pebbles in the court-\nyard beside the fallen curtain wall), which transits seamlessly into\nmemories of Thecla's childhood, but still recalled from the point of\nview of Severian (as Thecla dodged the hooves). Finally, it\ntransits into Thecla's memory seen from her point of view\n(of my father's mounted guard). This shows that the artificial\nmemories have become mingled with his own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dear Bennewitz," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wednesday 8 October 2008, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In Claw chap XXV, Severian is having life\nmemories before he falls asleep. while\nthere is obviously the potential for Thecla\nmemories to intermix here, this following\npassage is still confusing:\n\n\"I played again with pebbles in the court-\nyard beside the fallen curtain wall, as\nThecla dodged the hooves of my father's\nmounted guard.\"\n\n. . . Even if the memory is Thecla's why\nwould she be dodging the feet of her\nfather's guard?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's because she's a small child and has gotten underfoot, as small\nchildren do. Presumably it depends on whether the memories are from\nSeverian and Thecla at the same age, or Severian and Thecla at the\nsame time. (Has anybody raised this point before? Is it even\ninteresting for our purposes? Do we know how much, if at all, older\nThecla is than Severian? I've always assumed that she is older, but\non examining that assumption I find that there's no real support for\nit. She could easily be Severian's age.) If they're the same age,\nshe's probably too young to know better. If the memories are from the\nsame time and she's older, she may have been acting under what in our\nday is the common horse-infatuation of young girls--I imagine it still\nholds with Urth girls and destriers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mark Millman\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Son of Witz", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2008-10-14T17:02:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But why have those two memories in particular become entwined? Neither \nknew the other as a child, neither played in the other's play places, \nthey probably weren't even toddlers at the same time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose it's because of stream of consciousness, symbol association.\nHe's got her memory from the corpse eating, and because he can't forget, her memories just mingle in with his. There are other moments where he slips into Thecla mode, but it doesn't usually screw with the subject/object structure of the sentence.\n\nAs a narrative device, it's obviously problematic, but tasty." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1a0930df0810141420m19e12a30j8838cccd0017b843@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Duncan Truter", "address": "dtruter at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-14T21:20:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "he reveals in UOTNS that he's not just Severian and Thecla, but\nequally the eunuch autarch and all of his predecessors. maybe there's\nsomeone else here other than Severian or Thecla?\n\nDuncan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:02:18 +0000\nFrom: \"Son of Witz\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"windows-1250\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But why have those two memories in particular become entwined? Neither\nknew the other as a child, neither played in the other's play places,\nthey probably weren't even toddlers at the same time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose it's because of stream of consciousness, symbol association.\nHe's got her memory from the corpse eating, and because he can't forget, her memories just mingle in with his. There are other moments where he slips into Thecla mode, but it doesn't usually screw with the subject/object structure of the sentence.\n\nAs a narrative device, it's obviously problematic, but tasty." } ] }, { "message_id": "<002401c92e6a$30da6540$1dd14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-10-15T02:03:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son of Witz\" wrote:\nI've come to agree with this perspective.\nHowever, if there are other such sentances in the first two books, I must\nhave missed them. Has anyone another such example?<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " And later:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He's got her memory from the corpse eating, and because he can't forget,\nher memories just mingle in with his. There are other moments where he\nslips into Thecla mode, but it doesn't usually screw with the subject/object\nstructure of the sentence.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there are other times when the subject switches from singular to\nplural in the same sentence, when the described action is clearly Thecla's\nalone. Immediately after ingesting her flesh, penultimate paragraph of\nchapter XI, CLAW:\n\n\"Just when I despaired--she was there, filling me as a melody fills a\ncottage. I was with her, running beside the Acis when we were a child.\n[etc.]\" Note the plural pronoun \"we\", but the singular \"child\".\n\nAlso, when Severian spoke to small Tzadkiel, he told her \"... of my\nchildhoods in the Citadel, at my father's villa, and in the village called\nFamulorum near the House Absolute.\" (URTH, chapter XL, 284) Obviously, the\nmemories are, in order, Severian's, Thecla's and the Old Autarch's.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0810142106j3fc303a0s9ccb3d54b25ebc70@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-15T04:06:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "<002401c92e6a$30da6540$1dd14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two thoughts.\n\nHowever Severian's miracles work, he has a bit of a dry spell after\ngiving up the Claw in Citadel. Maybe it's all in his head.\n\nSecond, regardless of when Severian-the-character becomes threefold,\nSeverian-the-writer is threefold all along. Now, presumably, he can\nperfectly recall being just one person, or just two, but other\nevidence suggests that he doesn't have perfect control of his\npersonae. Is there a point at which the old Autarch asserts himself?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/14/08, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nSon of Witz wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: John Watkins [mailto:john.watkins04 at gmail.com]\nSent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 02:33 PM\nTo: 'The Urth Mailing List'\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"Myfather's mountedguard\"\n\nIt's my impression that the Severian and Thecla personalities and\nmemories are far more prominent. Neither the old Autarch nor his\npredecessors had either the Claw, which made Thecla \"alive\" in\nSeverian, nor Severian's eidetic memory, so the old Autarch's memories\nof Autarchs past would be dim and imperfect compared to Severian's\nThecla-memories.\n\nCertainly Thecla asserts herself in Severian in ways that the others\ndo not, or rather, certainly Severian records Thecla's moments of\nself-assertion in ways he does not record such moments for others.\nBut that could be in keeping with his general reticense about the old\nAutarch, whose name Severian surely knew." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That makes a lot of sense as to why it is always Thecla and not the other\nmemory characters we notice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev specifically says that the previous autarchs' memories are present\nbut faint, only his immediate predecessor and Thecla are \"there\" enough\nto have initiative and identity of their own. I don't think the Claw\nwould make a big difference, since Sev is the ultimately the source of\nthe Claw's power. If anything, the conciliatory aspect of the Claw would\nhave more of an integrating, assimilative effect, granting peace from\nsuch an internal division.\n\nAs for more Thecla-moments being recorded, that's largely because Thecla\nis the only passenger memory available for 2 1/2 volumes, with the a\ntiny snippet of Autarch-memory at the end of Volume IV. By the time URTH\nbegins, Sev's already had ten years of time to adjust, so there's just\nnot as much opportunity for other such takeovers to be recorded.\nAlthough, by the time Sev returns to the Citadel, he is speaking in the\nplural as more than just a royal affectation, as if the collective\nautarchs are speaking through him.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001d01c92e83$388fa020$7fce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-10-15T05:02:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0810142106j3fc303a0s9ccb3d54b25ebc70@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\nSecond, regardless of when Severian-the-character becomes threefold,\nSeverian-the-writer is threefold all along. Now, presumably, he can\nperfectly recall being just one person, or just two, but other\nevidence suggests that he doesn't have perfect control of his\npersonae. Is there a point at which the old Autarch asserts himself?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "After the fall on the Ship that killed Severian, URTH, Chapter IX, p-65:\n\n\"The old Autarch, who lived in my mind but seldom spoke, muttered through my\nswollen lips. '_Find another_....'\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48F580B7.6020903@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-10-15T05:33:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "<001d01c92e83$388fa020$7fce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJohn Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Second, regardless of when Severian-the-character becomes threefold,\nSeverian-the-writer is threefold all along. Now, presumably, he can\nperfectly recall being just one person, or just two, but other\nevidence suggests that he doesn't have perfect control of his\npersonae. Is there a point at which the old Autarch asserts himself?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After the fall on the Ship that killed Severian, URTH, Chapter IX, p-65:\n\n\"The old Autarch, who lived in my mind but seldom spoke, muttered through my\nswollen lips. '_Find another_....'\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think John Watkins meant, and I am more interested in, is there a \npoint where Old Autarch asserts himself over the _narrator_, like Thecla \nseems to have?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001201c92f0e$4534b6e0$d1d34a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2008-10-15T21:37:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"My father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "<48F580B7.6020903@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nAfter the fall on the Ship that killed Severian, URTH, Chapter IX, p-65:\n\n\"The old Autarch, who lived in my mind but seldom spoke, muttered\nthrough my\nswollen lips. '_Find another_....'\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think John Watkins meant, and I am more interested in, is there a\npoint where Old Autarch asserts himself over the _narrator_, like Thecla\nseems to have?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so, and the quote suggests the same.\n\nMy real point was to address the original thrust of this thread, which has\nbeen the subject of much debate and spawned some rather fanciful theories.\n\nThecla's father had a villa up north on the frontier. The Old Autarch\nfathered neither Severian nor Thecla. Ouen was Severian's father. Thecla's\nfather died before Severian even met her. Waiter Ouen certainly never\ncommanded a mounted guard. The Old Autarch had been a servant in the House\nAbsolute. It is very unlikely that a lowly servant's father commanded a\nmounted guard; still less likely to have done so when Thecla was a little\ngirl. So the father in the sentence in question must refer to Thecla's\nfather.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "b sharp", "address": "bsharporflat at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-21T15:13:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"my father's mounted guard\"", "in_reply_to": "<001201c92f0e$4534b6e0$d1d34a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some inconvenient facts:\n1) Thecla was an exultant. The exultants are a closed caste, meaning onemust be *born* to it, \nof exultant parents. 2) The lame (and still living) Castellan was not an exultant. 3) Thecla's father \nhad given a ball for her each year until he *died*." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I dunno, Roy. \"Fact\" is a pretty strong word for use describing an ambiguous work of fiction. But \nanyway, I can't remember reading that both parents were required to be exultant for exultant status. \nNor do I remember any statement of class status for the Castellan but I do seem to remember reading\nthat military officer positions might be filled by armigers or exultants. I think there is more evidence that \nCatherine is not an exultant, due to her height, but not sure it matters. The bit about having a ball \nevery year until he died was part of a dream sequence I think, one which also included a father figure\nwith the head of a brown eyed bull. Given that dreamy milieu I'm not sure we can call it a \"fact\" that\nher father is dead. And then there is that \"villa\"...\n\nAnyway, as noted in my last post, I'm currently of the thought that Severian's family membership has\nbeen deliberately obscured through the use of pink herrings; hints at possibilities with no intention of there\nbeing one \"true\" answer which can be divined. So any suggestion of who Severian's family might be \n(including Dorcas and Ouen) is open for doubt, debate and denial. Any suggestion one could make is easy\nenough to knock down. Still seems worth pointing out these hints anyway.\n\nIn an interview somewhere, Gene Wolfe was asked how long he hoped his work would be read after his \ndeath. He was surprised at the question but he was able to answer \"100 years\" or \"300 years\" I forget which.\nEither way, that's pretty ambitious I think, and says to me that we'll get no deathbed revelations solving any \nof these mysteries. Ah well. Some like eternal mystery. Not me so much, though." } ] } ] }