{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5177", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5177, "subject": "Junie Moon (Again)", "messages": 9, "voices": 5, "first": "2008-10-11T20:26:40+00:00", "last": "2008-10-14T04:54:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2008-10-11T20:26:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Junie Moon (Again)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Urthers --\n \nLast night, I read \"Has Anybody Seen Junie Moon?\" for the first time. It's \nin Starwater Strains and, to my surprise, is being reprinted in the new Best \nOf, which implies that someone at least thinks it's one of Wolfe's best -- \nand that implies that someone thinks he understands the story. Or perhaps \nwhoever chose those stories (and I suspect Wolfe wasn't really involved, or \"From \nthe Cradle\" would be in there) thinks that it's a story that demonstrates \nWolfe's trickiness and repays study.\n \nI have to admit that most of the story baffles me. The basic outline is \nfairly clear: It is narrated by an extremely strong man who works for a circus \nand who has been hired/managed by someone named June Moon to look for \nsomething called the White Cow Moon, which circles the earth at an extremely low \norbit and which has to be moving extremely fast in order to do so. She has \ndisappeared, and the strong man is looking for her. So much for the basics. \nAlmost everything else in the story is, for me at least, mysterious.\n \nThe narrator is often called Hercules, and he thinks Junie Moon's real name \nis probably \"June.\" I suspect he's wrong and that whoever pointed this out \non the list earlier is correct: Her real name is Juno. Those names put us in \nthe sphere of Greek mythology, with Juno sending Hercules out on some \nmissions.\n \nBut I suspect that approach is also misleading. Hercules is only the \nnarrator's stage name. His real name is Sam. Short for what? SAMSON, the strong \nman in the Bible. \n \nHe is actually \"Sam Jr.\" he says, which makes him the son of Samson. He \nisn't Samson himself, but he's the son of Samson. And, in fact, I suspect that \n\"Sam Jr.\" is something of a joke on Wolfe's part, a joke which hints at what \nI'm saying: The narrator is Sam Jr, which means he is the son of Sam or \n\"Sam's son.\" Get it?\n \nIncidentally, the name \"Samson\" is derived from the Hebrew word \"shemesh,\" \nsun, which is something an internet search easily turns up \n(_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson) ). Given that Junie \nis a Moon, perhaps that's significant.\n \nThere may be other allusions to Samson, too, including the tearing open of \nthe gate (Samson uproots the gates of Gaza) and the line at the end: \"If all \nof us get mad at once maybe we will bring the whole thing crashing down.\" And \nif those allusions are really allusions, then there may be some parallel \nbetween \"the feds\" and the Philistines.\n \nBut even if this is correct, I still don't understand the story. That \nthere's an allusion to a Lafferty story about a tiny moon orbiting the world, I \nunderstand, and I think I follow the physics (the Moon would have to be \ntravelling considerably faster than a bullet in order to maintain an orbit at such a \nlow altitude). \n \nBut ... \n \n* What's the significance of Junie's last name, Moon? She is herself short \nand fat and therefore moon-like, but beyond that...\n \n* What's with the King Arthur, Merlin's cave stuff, and who are the people \nthey see? \n \n* What is the area in which Sam thinks Junie has disappeared? \n \n* Who are the feds and why are they after Sam & Junie?\n \n* Why was Sam's dad killed? \n \n* Beyond being an allusion to Lafferty's name, what's the significance of \nRoy T. Laffer and what does the discussion of the \"T\" in his name (like \"Honest \ntea is the best policy\") mean?\n \n* What did happen to Junie Moon?\n \nThe story begins, of course, with a reference to Indians who tell you a \nstory but all the time are laughing at you. So was Roy T. Laffer, we're told. \nAnd so, I think, is Sam. But I don't get the joke.\n \nThoughts?\n \nJohn\n \n \n \n \n**************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. \nDining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out \n(http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2AB3307B9BA4489EAC2FEC78DE5B2D15@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-11T21:28:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Junie Moon (Again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John,\n\nI haven't read \"Junie Moon\" but \"White Cow Moon\" is almost certainly a reference to Io (who was the moon). \n\nShe was one of Zeus's rape victims. In order to hide her from persuing Hera (Juno), he changed her into a heifer (\"virgin horned one\"). Hera, being suspicious, had Argus watch over her in case Zeus tried to change her back. Zeus sent his son Hermes to kill Argus (which he did by severing his neck with a curved blade). Then Hera cursed Io to wander the Earth forever.\n\nShe became the great great great [whatever] grandmother of Hercules and Perseus.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48F12ACD.20607@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-10-11T22:38:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Junie Moon (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<2AB3307B9BA4489EAC2FEC78DE5B2D15@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nJohn,\n \nI haven't read \"Junie Moon\" but \"White Cow Moon\" is almost certainly a \nreference to Io (who was the moon).\n \nShe was one of Zeus's rape victims. In order to hide her from persuing \nHera (Juno), he changed her into a heifer (\"virgin horned one\"). Hera, \nbeing suspicious, had Argus watch over her in case Zeus tried to change \nher back. Zeus sent his son Hermes to kill Argus (which he did by \nsevering his neck with a curved blade). Then Hera cursed Io to wander \nthe Earth forever.\n \nShe became the great great great [whatever] grandmother of Hercules and \nPerseus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's something that doesn't compute here. I suppose a maiden could be \na priestess of Juno, who is a goddess of fidelity as well as marriage, \nbut after being raped or seduced by Jove (accounts differ), she would \nhardly be a maiden thereafter, unless the cloudy guise of Jove allows \nthe same dodge around defloweration that the ray of light shining \nthrough Mary's goblet without/breaking it does in Christian iconography.\n\nAlso, Greco-Roman myth (Juno and Hercules are the Roman names) had Juno \nas the enemy of Hercules, not his employer. Hercules being the issue of \nyet another of Jove's infidelities, she sent serpents to kill him at \nbirth and others at various later times. Meanwhile, Herc's usual \n\"employer\" was Augeas (the 12 labors)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6791C37AA42E46ACBB6BDA31CD133037@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-12T07:31:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Junie Moon (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<48F12ACD.20607@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's something that doesn't compute here...\nGreco-Roman myth (Juno and Hercules are the Roman names) had Juno as the \nenemy of Hercules, not his employer. Hercules being the issue of yet \nanother of Jove's infidelities, she sent serpents to kill him at birth and \nothers at various later times. Meanwhile, Herc's usual \"employer\" was \nAugeas (the 12 labors)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, as with so many things about the myths it is not entirely clear that \nHercules was originally understood as Hera's enemy. His Greek name, \nHERACLES, means \"Glory of Hera\". Still, his *ultimate* employer is usually \nseen as King Eurystheus. His employment to Eurystheus was assigned to him by \nthe Oracle at Delphi (which originally belonged to Hera) because Hera drove \nHeracles mad and had him murder his family.\n\nSo it is perfectly reasonable --in a Lupine sense-- that Hercules would be \nemployed by Juno, although one should be suspicious of her motives in \nemploying him.\n\n[Aside] The concept of a *seemingly* hostile divine patron is not unheard of \neven in Christianity. This messianic text is assigned by Christians to \nJesus:\n\n\"Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased JHVH to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: \nwhen thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he \nshall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the JHVH shall prosper in his \nhand.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose a maiden could be a priestess of Juno, who is a goddess of \nfidelity as well as marriage, but after being raped or seduced by Jove \n(accounts differ), she would hardly be a maiden thereafter, unless the \ncloudy guise of Jove allows the same dodge around defloweration that the \nray of light shining through Mary's goblet without/breaking it does in \nChristian iconography." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The logical inconsistency of being a \"virgin\" and having had intercourse is \nan issue that was taken up by the Jewish polemics regarding Jesus's claimed \nvirgin birth. However, a few Talmudic scholars acknowledged the physical \npossibility. It is possible, though rare, for a woman to become pregnant \nwithout completely breaking equipment. But it doesn't really matter in these \nexamples since Mary's pregnancy was a miracle (not a physical event): \"The \nHoly Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall \novershadow thee\" (Luke 1: 35). One presumes Zeus did not have a human form \nunless he wanted to, and could have had intercourse with Io without one \n(whatever would be meant by Zeus's divine lust).\n\nJ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<48F1AB56.2080503@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2008-10-12T07:46:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Junie Moon (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<6791C37AA42E46ACBB6BDA31CD133037@GATEWAY>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nThere's something that doesn't compute here...\nGreco-Roman myth (Juno and Hercules are the Roman names) had Juno as \nthe enemy of Hercules, not his employer. Hercules being the issue of \nyet another of Jove's infidelities, she sent serpents to kill him at \nbirth and others at various later times. Meanwhile, Herc's usual \n\"employer\" was Augeas (the 12 labors)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, as with so many things about the myths it is not entirely clear \nthat Hercules was originally understood as Hera's enemy. His Greek name, \nHERACLES, means \"Glory of Hera\". Still, his *ultimate* employer is " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure that the Ancient Greek preposition is exact; some sources \ntranslate it as \"Glory from Hera\" or \"Glory by Hera\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "usually seen as King Eurystheus. His employment to Eurystheus was \nassigned to him by the Oracle at Delphi (which originally belonged to \nHera) because Hera drove Heracles mad and had him murder his family." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When did it belong to Hera? I've only ever heard of it being transferred \nfrom Gaea to Apollo upon his defeat of Python. Would this have something \ndo with the scandal that led to the use of crones as Pythias rather than \nthe seductible young women that served before?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\n< http://www.io.com/~jwilson >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<76435D522AC14F5A8203E2E48A82CB0A@GATEWAY>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-12T18:32:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Junie Moon (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<48F1AB56.2080503@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James said:\nHis employment to Eurystheus was assigned to him by the Oracle at Delphi \n(which originally belonged to Hera) because Hera drove Heracles mad and \nhad him murder his family." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff said:\nWhen did it belong to Hera? I've only ever heard of it being transferred \nfrom Gaea to Apollo upon his defeat of Python. Would this have something \ndo with the scandal that led to the use of crones as Pythias rather than \nthe seductible young women that served before?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good point. I was trying to remember how I associated Hera with \nGaea. It turns out it was our old pal Robert Graves in \"The Greek Myths\" (a \nbook Wolfe has recommended), where he says flatly \"Hera was Mother Earth \nor...Delphyne in her prophetic aspect\" (TGM 21:3). He said it was Hera who \nsent the Python against Leto.\n\nAnyway, it is certainly true that Hera and the Python were close cahoots. \nThe Python was the nurse maid to her lil' baby Typhon. (Homeric Hymn To \nPythian Apollo 300-370)\n(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?layout=;doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0138;query=card%3D%2317;loc=3.305)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48F2AC30.6090909@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvêa", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2008-10-13T02:02:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Junie Moon (Again)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lafferty's story is \"You Can't Go Back\", in which the White Cow Moon \nappears. In that story, the White Cow Moon doesn't actually orbit the \nearth, it just floats around, so part of what Wolfe is doing here is to \ngive a little more physical reality to Lafferty's story. Also worth \npointing out is that the Lafferty story is about loss: the White Cow \nMoon was a magical boy to the main characters when they were children, \nbut when they go back to it when they are adults they find that it is \n\"dingy\", smelly, not at all what they remembered.\n\nWolfe's story being about loss fits the theme. I agree that Junie is \nprobably Juno, and that \"Sam Jr\" is probably Samson. Indians are \nconnected to the White Cow Moon in the Lafferty story as well.\n\nJust some added fuel for the fire...\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JBarach at aol.com wrote:\nUrthers --\n \nLast night, I read \"Has Anybody Seen Junie Moon?\" for the first time. \nIt's in Starwater Strains and, to my surprise, is being reprinted in the \nnew Best Of, which implies that someone at least thinks it's one of \nWolfe's best -- and that implies that someone thinks he understands the \nstory. Or perhaps whoever chose those stories (and I suspect Wolfe \nwasn't really involved, or \"From the Cradle\" would be in there) thinks \nthat it's a story that demonstrates Wolfe's trickiness and repays study.\n \nI have to admit that most of the story baffles me. The basic outline is \nfairly clear: It is narrated by an extremely strong man who works for a \ncircus and who has been hired/managed by someone named June Moon to look \nfor something called the White Cow Moon, which circles the earth at an \nextremely low orbit and which has to be moving extremely fast in order \nto do so. She has disappeared, and the strong man is looking for her. \nSo much for the basics. Almost everything else in the story is, for me \nat least, mysterious.\n \nThe narrator is often called Hercules, and he thinks Junie Moon's real \nname is probably \"June.\" I suspect he's wrong and that whoever pointed \nthis out on the list earlier is correct: Her real name is Juno. Those \nnames put us in the sphere of Greek mythology, with Juno sending \nHercules out on some missions.\n \nBut I suspect that approach is also misleading. Hercules is only the \nnarrator's stage name. His real name is Sam. Short for what? SAMSON, \nthe strong man in the Bible. \n \nHe is actually \"Sam Jr.\" he says, which makes him the son of Samson. He \nisn't Samson himself, but he's the son of Samson. And, in fact, I \nsuspect that \"Sam Jr.\" is something of a joke on Wolfe's part, a joke \nwhich hints at what I'm saying: The narrator is Sam Jr, which means he \nis the son of Sam or \"Sam's son.\" Get it?\n \nIncidentally, the name \"Samson\" is derived from the Hebrew word \n\"shemesh,\" sun, which is something an internet search easily turns up \n(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson). Given that Junie is a Moon, \nperhaps that's significant.\n \nThere may be other allusions to Samson, too, including the tearing open \nof the gate (Samson uproots the gates of Gaza) and the line at the end: \n\"If all of us get mad at once maybe we will bring the whole thing \ncrashing down.\" And if those allusions are really allusions, then there \nmay be some parallel between \"the feds\" and the Philistines.\n \nBut even if this is correct, I still don't understand the story. That \nthere's an allusion to a Lafferty story about a tiny moon orbiting the \nworld, I understand, and I think I follow the physics (the Moon would \nhave to be travelling considerably faster than a bullet in order to \nmaintain an orbit at such a low altitude). \n \nBut ...\n \n* What's the significance of Junie's last name, Moon? She is herself \nshort and fat and therefore moon-like, but beyond that...\n \n* What's with the King Arthur, Merlin's cave stuff, and who are the \npeople they see? \n \n* What is the area in which Sam thinks Junie has disappeared? \n \n* Who are the feds and why are they after Sam & Junie?\n \n* Why was Sam's dad killed? \n \n* Beyond being an allusion to Lafferty's name, what's the significance \nof Roy T. Laffer and what does the discussion of the \"T\" in his name \n(like \"Honest tea is the best policy\") mean?\n \n* What did happen to Junie Moon?\n \nThe story begins, of course, with a reference to Indians who tell you a \nstory but all the time are laughing at you. So was Roy T. Laffer, we're \ntold. And so, I think, is Sam. But I don't get the joke.\n \nThoughts?\n \nJohn" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College Editor, MAA FOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/19/\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n\nThere are those who claim that magic is like the tide; that it swells \nand fades over the surface of the earth, collecting in concentrated \npools here and there, almost disappearing from other spots, leaving them \nparched for wonder. There are also those who believe that if you stick \nyour fingers up your nose and blow, it will increase your intelligence.\n -- The Teachings of Ebenezum, Volume VII" } ] }, { "message_id": "<347966.45546.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2008-10-14T03:38:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Junie Moon (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<48F2AC30.6090909@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI just reread “Has Anyone Seen Junie Moon?” after reading\nJohn’s question last week. I haven’t processed much yet, but here are my\ninitial reactions. And I’ll apologize in advance for the somewhat shotgun\nnature of these responses. You’re reading the ideas “as they happen?”\n \nI have a feeling the key to this story has more to do with\nthe Samson story than Juno/Hera’s, although that certainly must be addressed. Recall\nthat Samson ultimately wants revenge on the Philistines for being blinded, as\nwell as being deceived by Delilah. The title is of course “Has Anyone SEEN\nJunie Moon,” and one of the problems throughout the story is that Sam Jr. keeps\nnot seeing things, or seeing things only partially: he can’t remember exactly\nwhat he saw in Merlin’s cave or what the moon rock looked like the one time it\ncame to the circus.\n \nAnd remember that Samson’s father is Manoah. Junie makes she\nand Sam take on the last name Manoe after the feds find them.\n \nThere’s also the nice bit in the Bible about Samson telling\na riddle that only he would be able to solve since it’s about an experience\nonly he had. (Killing the lion and the honey that appears inside it.) Perhaps\nthere’s a kind of in joke here between Wolfe and Lafferty that we’re not\nsupposed to get and, thus, part of the story’s charm is its impenetrability.\nBut only perhaps, because that seems a bit too obscure a reason for writing a\nstory, even for Wolfe.\n \nInstead, it seems fairly obvious here that the Feds are to\nbe thought of as the Philistines. And what both the Feds and Philistines do in\nboth stories is keep people from knowing the truth. In the story, truth is a\nmatter, again, of correct sight, but also finding the right vantage point on\nevents (and how often in the story does that have to do with being at the right\nheight, whether it be throwing Junie up 15 feet, or telling the truth on the\nplane, or figuring out what the White Cow Moon is made of so that you can\neasily create escape-velocity vehicles which seems to be the reason the Feds\nget interested in Junie). And, of course, it ends with Sam Jr. saying that\npeople could join together and tumble the Feds, where “maybe we will bring the\nwhole thing crashing down,” which seems about as direct a reference to Samson destroying\nthe temple as we’re going to get. (And Junie will be found in the pieces that\nare left over suggesting that she is in fact already lost and not just far\naway.)\n \nAs for the bits about King Arthur that appear, Junie says\nthat Laffer(ty) was definitely Merlin. But the knights are all portrayed as\njust good old heroes that happened to be remembered. But it’s followed by a\nshort meditation on the value of stories of lost greatness: “It was dead and\ngone like my dad. King Arthur was dead and his knights were too, and the bad\nguys were the head of everything and had been for a long, long time. We were\nthe paint, even Junie was paint, and now the paint was getting dull the way\npaint does, with cracks all over it and falling off. And I thought this is not\njust where that king was born, this is where he died too. And I knew that was\ntrue the way I meant it.” (131) In other words, fantastic stories (tall tales)\nhave a tendency to lose their efficacy over time, which seems to be a danger\nthat’s recognized multiple times. Junie’s whole purpose, after all, is trying\nto figure out the truth of the White Cow Moon before it’s lost to her. (There’s\nalso the interesting point that Sam Jr. is compared to “the jolly old green\ngiant,” yet another Wolfean “green man,” but who, in an Arthurian context,\ncould be the Green Knight who actually tests Gawain to see if he’s truly\nvirtuous is Sam Jr. a test for modern readers?)\n \nThematically, I think Fernando’s idea that the story is\nabout loss ties up many of the questions John originally had about the story.\nI’m not sure it’s going to fit together in a puzzle-like way, but thematically,\nit does for me. I don’t think that looking for exact mythical correlations will\nwork in this case, which is where much of the discussion seems to have gone.\n(After all, we have Greco-Roman, Hebrew, and Indian mythical material floating\naround this story, all in the context of talking about a storyteller who acts\nlike, as the narrator says of Indians: “they have all these stories that they\ntell you and then they laugh inside.” (125) I get the feeling that this is less\nof a puzzle we’re supposed to figure out. Instead, it’s a puzzle that wants you\nto think about the nature of why it’s puzzling, not it’s solution. Dealing with\nloss and hope at once may be a kind of puzzle that has no definite solution.\n \nAnyway, the story works for me as a reflection on loss in\nthe form of a kind of hopeful elegy. In the story, Sam Jr.?s search for Junie\nMoon reads like a loving portrayal of a lost (dead?) lover. The hope comes from\nthe idea that “Junie believes in dead people coming back and all that.” (124)\nBut, metaphorically, that hope starts to look like an unwillingness to let go\neven if it requires telling yourself some fabulously tall tales in order to\nkeep hope alive.\n \nOn a meta level, the story’s also a kind of elegy of Wolfe’s\nfor Lafferty. The story itself is a “tall tale” like Lafferty would write, but\ndone in a Wolfe-like vein. Roy T. Laffer is already missing when the story\nstarts, but his legacy of tales of course live on. More specifically, however,\nwhat lives on is the promise of those lying stories to perhaps hold a kernel of\ntruth that outlasts the man, the story, and the lies. I particularly like this\nbit: “Do you know what it says on the tea boxes” The ones with the man with the\ncap on them? It says honest tea is the best policy. I know what that means, and\nI think that cranky old Roy T. Laffer knew it too. (125) As I read it, the\npithy statement is at once a parable of the truth Laffer wanted to tell (as Sam\nsays, Laffer “knew lots of stuff?[but] they would never believe him even if it\nwas true” 125), but also a playful pun that actually doesn’t say what it says —\nit says something true about honesty without being honest about how it says it,\nif that makes any sense. You have to be tricky to get the truth, and maybe have\nto know it already. So it points to a kind of shared idea of “truth” for both\nWolfe and Lafferty which might be many things: Catholicism? A love of stories\nthat don’t tell you what they mean? The idea that truth is most truthful when\npulled from a lie, or at least a tall tale? (And further bits fit this:\nLafferty was from Oklahoma like Laffer, Wolfe, a big guy, spent plenty of time\nin Texas like Sam.)\n \nAgain, pardon my very disjoined ramblings here. I’m typing\nas I think, which is never a good way to communicate. But I’d like to thank\nJohn for getting me to reread this story which, this time around, is much more\nmemorable than the first.\n\nCraig\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Fernando Q. Gouv?a \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 9:02:24 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Junie Moon (Again)\n\nLafferty's story is \"You Can't Go Back\", in which the White Cow Moon \nappears. In that story, the White Cow Moon doesn't actually orbit the \nearth, it just floats around, so part of what Wolfe is doing here is to \ngive a little more physical reality to Lafferty's story. Also worth \npointing out is that the Lafferty story is about loss: the White Cow \nMoon was a magical boy to the main characters when they were children, \nbut when they go back to it when they are adults they find that it is \n\"dingy\", smelly, not at all what they remembered.\n\nWolfe's story being about loss fits the theme. I agree that Junie is \nprobably Juno, and that \"Sam Jr\" is probably Samson. Indians are \nconnected to the White Cow Moon in the Lafferty story as well.\n\nJust some added fuel for the fire...\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JBarach at aol.com wrote:\nUrthers --\n \nLast night, I read \"Has Anybody Seen Junie Moon?\" for the first time. \nIt's in Starwater Strains and, to my surprise, is being reprinted in the \nnew Best Of, which implies that someone at least thinks it's one of \nWolfe's best -- and that implies that someone thinks he understands the \nstory. Or perhaps whoever chose those stories (and I suspect Wolfe \nwasn't really involved, or \"From the Cradle\" would be in there) thinks \nthat it's a story that demonstrates Wolfe's trickiness and repays study.\n \nI have to admit that most of the story baffles me. The basic outline is \nfairly clear: It is narrated by an extremely strong man who works for a \ncircus and who has been hired/managed by someone named June Moon to look \nfor something called the White Cow Moon, which circles the earth at an \nextremely low orbit and which has to be moving extremely fast in order \nto do so. She has disappeared, and the strong man is looking for her. \nSo much for the basics. Almost everything else in the story is, for me \nat least, mysterious.\n \nThe narrator is often called Hercules, and he thinks Junie Moon's real \nname is probably \"June.\" I suspect he's wrong and that whoever pointed \nthis out on the list earlier is correct: Her real name is Juno. Those \nnames put us in the sphere of Greek mythology, with Juno sending \nHercules out on some missions.\n \nBut I suspect that approach is also misleading. Hercules is only the \nnarrator's stage name. His real name is Sam. Short for what? SAMSON, \nthe strong man in the Bible. \n \nHe is actually \"Sam Jr.\" he says, which makes him the son of Samson. He \nisn't Samson himself, but he's the son of Samson. And, in fact, I \nsuspect that \"Sam Jr.\" is something of a joke on Wolfe's part, a joke \nwhich hints at what I'm saying: The narrator is Sam Jr, which means he \nis the son of Sam or \"Sam's son.\" Get it?\n \nIncidentally, the name \"Samson\" is derived from the Hebrew word \n\"shemesh,\" sun, which is something an internet search easily turns up \n(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson). Given that Junie is a Moon, \nperhaps that's significant.\n \nThere may be other allusions to Samson, too, including the tearing open \nof the gate (Samson uproots the gates of Gaza) and the line at the end: \n\"If all of us get mad at once maybe we will bring the whole thing \ncrashing down.\" And if those allusions are really allusions, then there \nmay be some parallel between \"the feds\" and the Philistines.\n \nBut even if this is correct, I still don't understand the story. That \nthere's an allusion to a Lafferty story about a tiny moon orbiting the \nworld, I understand, and I think I follow the physics (the Moon would \nhave to be travelling considerably faster than a bullet in order to \nmaintain an orbit at such a low altitude). \n \nBut ...\n \n* What's the significance of Junie's last name, Moon? She is herself \nshort and fat and therefore moon-like, but beyond that...\n \n* What's with the King Arthur, Merlin's cave stuff, and who are the \npeople they see? \n \n* What is the area in which Sam thinks Junie has disappeared? \n \n* Who are the feds and why are they after Sam & Junie?\n \n* Why was Sam's dad killed? \n \n* Beyond being an allusion to Lafferty's name, what's the significance \nof Roy T. Laffer and what does the discussion of the \"T\" in his name \n(like \"Honest tea is the best policy\") mean?\n \n* What did happen to Junie Moon?\n \nThe story begins, of course, with a reference to Indians who tell you a \nstory but all the time are laughing at you. So was Roy T. Laffer, we're \ntold. And so, I think, is Sam. But I don't get the joke.\n \nThoughts?\n \nJohn" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea\nCarter Professor of Mathematics\nColby College Editor, MAA FOCUS\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://mathdl.maa.org/mathDL/19/\nhttp://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\n\nThere are those who claim that magic is like the tide; that it swells \nand fades over the surface of the earth, collecting in concentrated \npools here and there, almost disappearing from other spots, leaving them \nparched for wonder. There are also those who believe that if you stick \nyour fingers up your nose and blow, it will increase your intelligence.\n -- The Teachings of Ebenezum, Volume VII" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "JBarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2008-10-14T04:54:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Junie Moon (Again)", "in_reply_to": "<347966.45546.qm@web37601.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nCraig writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have a feeling the key to this story has more to do with\nthe Samson story than Juno/Hera’s, although that\ncertainly must be addressed. Recall that Samson\nultimately wants revenge on the Philistines for being\nblinded, as well as being deceived by Delilah. The\ntitle is of course ?Has Anyone SEEN Junie Moon,\nand one of the problems throughout the story is\nthat Sam Jr. keeps not seeing things, or seeing\nthings only partially: he can’t remember exactly\nwhat he saw in Merlin’s cave or what the moon\nrock looked like the one time it came to the circus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And remember that Samson’s father is Manoah.\nJunie makes she and Sam take on the last\nname Manoe after the feds find them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes! Thank you, Craig. I think this clinches the Samson explanation I was \ngroping at. I should have gone back, as you did, and read the story again \nwith Samson in mind. I caught the \"crashing down\" bit at the end and, of \ncourse, the \"Sam\" stuff, but I forgot all about Manoe.\n \nJohn\n\n \n**************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination. \nDining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out \n(http://local.mapquest.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000002)" } ] } ] }