{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5187", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5187, "subject": "Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "messages": 32, "voices": 10, "first": "2008-10-16T08:20:11+00:00", "last": "2010-01-04T05:50:21+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<48F6F93B.8010802@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-10-16T08:20:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Chapter 3, Dr. Chase takes Cassie to a mountain which he says is \nalive and that its wife is a \"laundress.\" This is likely to be Maple \nMountain in Ontario, Canada. According to Wikipedia \n(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_Mountain), \"Long before \nrecreationists, bureaucrats and business interests were turned on by the \nmountain, the Temagami First Nation \n reined over it. \nThey called the mountain /Chee-bay-jing/, meaning \"the place where the \nspirits go\". It was a sacred site, the most powerful in their realm.\"\n\nThe \"laundress\" reference may not be a Native American legend, however. \nI found a reference to a \"Washer at the Ford,\" a form of banshee in \nCeltic legend. If a soldier saw an old woman washing bloody garments in \nthe river, this predicted his death in battle. This legend is also \nconnected to Modron, Morrigan, and Morgan le Fey. Cassie's middle name \nis Fiona, which is derived from a Gaelic word meaning white, or fair. \nBill Reis' son Rian is also a Gaelic name meaning \"little king.\" Cassie \nsays she will be going out with a banshee (p. 64). She fills the theater \nwith \"wailing ghosts\" (p. 53) in warning about a dangerous honeymoon in \nthe play. This predicts the disaster of her romance with Bill Reis -- \nCassie is like a banshee, and like Cassandra in predicting evil which is \nnot believed (p. 64).\n\nSpeaking of names, her first is actually Cassiopeia, the queen in Greek \nlegend who boasted of her beauty and offended a sea god, so that her \ndaughter Andromeda was chained to a rock as a sacrifice to the sea \nmonster Cefus. (Cassiopeia and Andromeda are also constellations, \nrelated to \"stars.\") Perseus saved Andromeda, and married her. Perseus \nwas the son of Danae by Zeus, who seduced her in the form of a shower of \ngold. Simonedes of Ceos (source of the \"evil guest\" quote) wrote a poem \nabout Danea and Perseus being cast into the sea.\n\nHer character in \"Dating the Volcano God\" is named Mariah Brownlea. In \nthe context of a musical, Mariah recalls \"They Call the Wind Mariah\" \nfrom \"Paint Your Wagon.\" Wind connects to her stormy fate. Brownlea \nsuggests a \"brown lea,\" a grassy green field (like the green goddess) \nthat has become withered and brown.\n\nHer lipstick is \"ultra natural ash rose\" (p. 30). \"Ash Rose\" is a song \nby Helen Trevillion, who writes Celtic music. It contains the line \"Rose \nto ash and ash to dust,\" another foreshadowing of the loss of Cassie's \nbeauty.\n\nOne quibble -- Cassie's address is 181 East Arbor Boulevard, apartment \n301 (per the assassin, p. 249 -- and Cassie agrees that this is \ncorrect). Why is the mirror-image apartment of her neighbors numbered 3B \n(p. 52)? Shouldn't her apartment be 3A?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0810160905m29c201a4y93914238468c7dea@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-16T16:05:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<48F772FB.6090103@mindspring.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. I did too.\n\nI need to reread." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/16/08, Henry Eissler wrote:\nDave Tallman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The \"laundress\" reference may not be a Native American legend, however. I\nfound a reference to a \"Washer at the Ford,\" a form of banshee in Celtic\nlegend. If a soldier saw an old woman washing bloody garments in the river,\nthis predicted his death in battle. This legend is also connected to Modron,\nMorrigan, and Morgan le Fey. Cassie's middle name is Fiona, which is derived\nfrom a Gaelic word meaning white, or fair. Bill Reis' son Rian is also a\nGaelic name meaning \"little king.\" Cassie says she will be going out with a\nbanshee (p. 64). She fills the theater with \"wailing ghosts\" (p. 53) in\nwarning about a dangerous honeymoon in the play. This predicts the disaster\nof her romance with Bill Reis -- Cassie is like a banshee, and like\nCassandra in predicting evil which is not believed (p. 64)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " For what it's worth-- Margaret Briggs describes herself in her\nintroduction as \"...an expert seamstress and laundress, ...\". Then, at the\ncast party, whenVincent Palma is speaking of banshees Norma asks, \"doesn't\nCassie have a grey neighbour right now?\" Margaret says, \"She's talking\nabout me.\"\n And I thought she was so nice.\n ---H\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48F772FB.6090103@mindspring.com>", "from": { "name": "Henry Eissler", "address": "henryeissleriii at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2008-10-16T16:59:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<48F6F93B.8010802@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\n\nThe \"laundress\" reference may not be a Native American legend, \nhowever. I found a reference to a \"Washer at the Ford,\" a form of \nbanshee in Celtic legend. If a soldier saw an old woman washing bloody \ngarments in the river, this predicted his death in battle. This legend \nis also connected to Modron, Morrigan, and Morgan le Fey. Cassie's \nmiddle name is Fiona, which is derived from a Gaelic word meaning \nwhite, or fair. Bill Reis' son Rian is also a Gaelic name meaning \n\"little king.\" Cassie says she will be going out with a banshee (p. \n64). She fills the theater with \"wailing ghosts\" (p. 53) in warning \nabout a dangerous honeymoon in the play. This predicts the disaster of \nher romance with Bill Reis -- Cassie is like a banshee, and like \nCassandra in predicting evil which is not believed (p. 64)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " For what it's worth-- Margaret Briggs describes herself in her \nintroduction as \"...an expert seamstress and laundress, ...\". Then, at \nthe cast party, whenVincent Palma is speaking of banshees Norma asks, \n\"doesn't Cassie have a grey neighbour right now?\" Margaret says, \"She's \ntalking about me.\"\n And I thought she was so nice.\n ---H" } ] }, { "message_id": "<48FA5ED1.80300@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-10-18T22:10:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<48F772FB.6090103@mindspring.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You may be onto something about Margaret Briggs.\n\n1) She is described as a small gray woman (p. 54) with a colorless face \n(p.57).\n2) She doesn't think to get a straw to preserve Cassie's lipstick (p. \n57), so she may not use it herself. Insensitivity to color is a sign of \na werewolf. (p. 206).\n3) She bobs as she walks (p. 59). This could be the \"swift loping walk, \neven in women.\" (p. 206).\n4) She finds out very quickly at the party that Jimmy Warshawsky is dead \n(p. 65), when she has almost no time to do it and few would gossip with \nher. Did she already know?\n5) Jimmy almost bumped into Margaret at the theater (p.56). Did she pick \nup the scent of near-death then?\n\nI'm almost convinced the strange changes in Cassie's address mean \nsomething. Early on, she's:\n\n1) On West Arbor (p. 81).\n2) Next to apartment 3B (p. 52), which implies it's a small building or \na low floor. It's only a step from the elevator to her door (p. 52).\n3) Eighteen blocks from the successful Sharon Bench, probably on the \npoor side of town (p. 24).\n4) Within a short walk of a Baskin-Robbins (p. 43). It's not a big, \nupscale store since only a single surly teenager is on duty there.\n\nLater:\n1) She has a doorman who calls to screen her visitors (p. 116).\n2) She's on the fifth floor (p. 111).\n3) The address is 181 East Arbor Boulevard, apartment 301 (p. 249).\n\nShe didn't just move to a fancier place with her success. She had the \nsame upstairs neighbor, Brian Pickins (p. 250).\n\nI think reality is being warped to make her surroundings fit with being \na star. People start think she is famous and ask for autographs before \nthey even know her name. She's referred to on TV by Sharon as a \"famous \nactress\" after giving only one outstanding performance (p. 89).\n\nThis may be part of the magic Chase worked to make her a star. Probably \nReis would have been suspicious of an actress out of nowhere who \nsuddenly became talented overnight. He might suspect the change was a \ntemporary glamor. But if her circumstances and people's memories were \naltered to fit, then she might be better bait." } ] }, { "message_id": "<48FB774B.4040308@mindspring.com>", "from": { "name": "Henry Eissler", "address": "henryeissleriii at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2008-10-19T18:07:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<48FA5ED1.80300@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " You know, I'm sure you're on to something about the address.\n As far as we know, she resides in only 4 places through the course \nof the book:\n 1) Her apartment in Kingsport, which, as you point out, changes from \nthe 3rd floor to the 5th, from 301 to 3A, and from W. Arbor to E. Arbor.\n 2) Her hotel room in Springfield.\n 3) Her hotel room in Kololahi., supposedly in the South Pacific- but \nwhen Sharon (who may be lying) is asked what time it is in Kingsport, \nit's just about the same. (p. 236) (remember that Cassie's a late riser.)\n 4) Her room at the palace. I guess she's only there for a couple of \ndays.\n Only the one in Kingsport goes through these changes? (And \nKingsport is in the same timezone as Great Takanga?)\n At the very end of the book, in the conversation with Ambassador \nKlauser, he points out two things- time is an illusion, and the laws of \nphysics are not the same everywhere.\n\n Forgive, please, a digression:\n India clearly knew about the diamond bracelet before Cassie received \nit (p. 140). Then says she was there when Wally gave it (p. 174). And \nmuch earlier, when she's talking about the gold bracelet, Gideon seems \nto know already about the diamond bracelet (p. 74). And, of course, \nwhen Wally gives it, he's just a holographic projection.\n During that conversation, he calls her \"Queen Cassiopeia of \nTakanga\", which is what prompts her shock that he 'knows her real \nname'. Of course, the play 'Dating the Volcano God' imitates her life \nafter the Springfield run- that could be easily explained by the fact \nthat Bill (Wally) wrote the play.\n She doesn't recognize Lt. Aaberg (Larsberg?) when she sees him \noutside her window, even though he looks so much like Scott. And she \nforgets Mickey the stage manager's name, though she's known and worked \nwith him for months- if not years.\n I haven't counted the times Cassie wakes up and thinks that what \nhappened previously either was or might have been a dream. At one \npoint, she says she thinks she might still be in the dream/nightmare (p. \n205).\n All through my first reading, I couldn't escape the suspicion, that \nCassie's whole life is some elaborate episode of 'Candid Camera' (or \n'Punkd'), or 'The Truman Show'. That she's at the center of some \nspectacle, and Bill Reis is the only one not in on it.\n Now you mention reality changing around her, and I can't help but \nwonder if that's not what's going on- that she's sculpting reality \naround her (probably unconciously ) to be centered on her. Maybe it is \nall a dream; or much of it.\n In short, I have no idea. But I needed to get those questions (at \nleast) off my chest.\n\n Please, share more of your insights. I'll shut up now.\n ---H" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nI'm almost convinced the strange changes in Cassie's address mean \nsomething. Early on, she's:\n\n1) On West Arbor (p. 81).\n2) Next to apartment 3B (p. 52), which implies it's a small building \nor a low floor. It's only a step from the elevator to her door (p. 52).\n3) Eighteen blocks from the successful Sharon Bench, probably on the \npoor side of town (p. 24).\n4) Within a short walk of a Baskin-Robbins (p. 43). It's not a big, \nupscale store since only a single surly teenager is on duty there.\n\nLater:\n1) She has a doorman who calls to screen her visitors (p. 116).\n2) She's on the fifth floor (p. 111).\n3) The address is 181 East Arbor Boulevard, apartment 301 (p. 249).\n\nShe didn't just move to a fancier place with her success. She had the \nsame upstairs neighbor, Brian Pickins (p. 250).\n\nI think reality is being warped to make her surroundings fit with \nbeing a star. People start think she is famous and ask for autographs \nbefore they even know her name. She's referred to on TV by Sharon as \na \"famous actress\" after giving only one outstanding performance (p. 89).\n\nThis may be part of the magic Chase worked to make her a star. \nProbably Reis would have been suspicious of an actress out of nowhere \nwho suddenly became talented overnight. He might suspect the change \nwas a temporary glamor. But if her circumstances and people's memories \nwere altered to fit, then she might be better bait." } ] }, { "message_id": "<48FBCC49.9060300@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-10-20T00:09:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<48FB774B.4040308@mindspring.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great observation about the time zone. Of course Cassie wouldn't start \nto get up early when she is pampered royalty -- she'd sleep later, if \nanything. Possible explanations:\n\n1) Sharon was called on a cell phone, and she's close by -- perhaps \nsearching for Cassie.\n2) Sharon is lying about the time for unknown reasons (I don't care for \nthis one).\n3) Cassie's need to speak to Sharon has warped reality again, and made \nthe two times correspond. This fits the time as illusion theory.\n\nI don't see as many difficulties with the bracelet and who knows about it.\n1) India mentions diamonds, but she could have simply received a hint \nfrom Reis like \"Do you think Ms. Casey would like diamonds?\"\n2) When India says she was there when Wally gave her the bracelet she \nmust mean the gold one. She doesn't know he took it back.\n3) Chase assumes that the bracelet was a diamond one at first. This may \nbe based on his research into the kind of gifts Reis gives to women he \nis trying to attract. The solid gold bracelet arouses his suspicions, \nand indeed Reis admits ill intent at the time he gave that gift.\n\nThere are interesting parallels with the Volcano God play, all right. \nDid you notice that the actor playing the island chief in the play is \nPorter Penniman? His character hires Seurat, the assassin of Mildred in \nthe other play, \"Ah shall never agin enlist no smelly li'l foreigners to \nwring your pretty little neck.\" (p. 61). I think this implies a \nconnection between King Kanoa and the assassin who visits Cassie in her \nroom. Kanoa seems to want her to become a puppet ruler, married to him \nand probably subject to the Storm King. Speaking of dreams, the Volcano \nGod play contains two dream sequences.\n\nMy theory on the reality-warping is that Cassie has been temporarily \nraised to an angelic level and unconsciously bends events in her favor. \nThis also explains:\n1) The just-in-time rescue by the flying beings.\n2) The manifestation of Vince as Volcano God to bring her fire.\n3) Her final words: \"Wally! Come back to me!\" Wally promised to be with \nher in death, and she has maintained a sense of his presence which \nfinally fails when she is far enough out of range of the beings who \nhelped raise her to this level of power.\n\nThere are multiple references to angels, such as Reis as the angel of \nthe play. Margaret complements her singing, and seems to censor herself \nfrom saying it was like an angel (p. 84), since she might think that was \nblasphemy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-20T09:42:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<48F772FB.6090103@mindspring.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 3:29 AM, Henry Eissler <\nhenryeissleriii at mindspring.com> wrote:\n\n\n For what it's worth-- Margaret Briggs describes herself in her\nintroduction as \"...an expert seamstress and laundress, ...\". Then, at the\ncast party, whenVincent Palma is speaking of banshees Norma asks, \"doesn't\nCassie have a grey neighbour right now?\" Margaret says, \"She's talking\nabout me.\"\n And I thought she was so nice." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Margaret is such an enigma! Just some random points, without being able to\nmake much sense of anything ...\n\n- She's Margaret Briggs, and this is a story where initials seem to be\nimportant in fixing identities. Cassie places Mariah Brownley in \"Dating the\nVolcano God\". Mariah is the daughter of a missionary; Margaret is church-y.\n\n- Cassie kind of turns into a Margaret - \"a bent and barefoot old woman\ndressed in rags\" when she is recused from the island, destitute at least\nuntil she gets back to her home town & her strong box.\n\n- I hope that the reference to the \"anti-cloning laws\" in the old\nambassador's strange conversation with Cassie is a red herring. But if not -\nCassie as a clone of Margaret?\n\n- In that strange conversation, the old ambassador comes out with\n\"Cassiopeia weeps for her children\". He seems to have jumped to the\nconclusion that Cassie was a clone of \"Fiona\", and I suppose he wants to\ndisarm her and see what hre reaction is. But what an odd thing to say. I\nsuppose it's a play on the Jewish \"Rachel weeps for her children\". As far as\nI know, Cassiopeia's only child was Andromeda, chained to a rock as an\noffering to the sea monster sent against Cassiopeia's country by Poseidon as\na punishment for her vanity. Cassie seems to be both mother and daughter in\nthis - she is vain, she is punished for it, in a sense, and she does sort of\nget offered up to sea monster. Ummm ... dunno.\n\n- Do we ever really get an explanation for why Margaret was\nabducted/arrested? As far as I can work out, it must have been the FBI which\ndid it (and I think this is when Gid \"comes in from the cold\", induced to\nre-establish contact with the FBI to secure her release). (And keeping on a\ntangent: why on earth does Ebony choose to stay in protective custody??)\n\n- But more particularly, Cassie never tries to get in touch with Margaret\nafter her release. Sure, she's whisked off to the Pacific almost at the same\ntime as it happens. But she calls Zelda, Sharon, India, Gid from the\nPacific, but not Margaret, and we never hear of her asking after her or\nthinking of her. Until she runs into her on the street on returning from\nCairns - Margaret just happens to be walking by ....\n\n- Does Cassie have Doubts about Margaret - does she think that maybe M was\nin cahoots with thieves after her nice new bracelet or something?\n\n- I have to be suspicious that maybe Margaret is working for the Squid God.\nWho else knows about the paralegal upstairs; does he become a target for\nSquiddie's malevolence because he loves Cassie's singing? Who knows better\nthan Margaret about Cassie's obsession with her weight (despite wighing 100\npounds or less)? - recalling that the assassin taunts her with \"pudginess\".\nThe picture Scott has of Cassie dancing with Gil/Gid - Margaret has a\ncamera.\n\nI keep trying to find a way to make sense of this very, very strange book -\nand it ain't working :)\n\nAnother question: who shot Gid, and why? Presumably not Bill, presumably not\nthe FBI. It looks like the work of Squiddie, or the ATF - and I think they\nare certainly an arm of Squiddie. Why would Squiddie or the ATF be out for\nGid at that point? Maybe this: Squiddie wants to use Cassie to ensnare Bill,\nas she does, in effect, in the end (because Bill would surely not have stuck\naround to be killed if Cassie hadn't been held captive). When Bill shows up\nat teh cast party, Cassie immediately tries to get Margaret to contact Gid.\nMargaret tells Squiddie that Reis has fallen for Cassie, but that Cassie is\ntrying to get help from Gid to avoid his clutches. So Gid has to go.\n\nOr something ...." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1606.72.171.0.143.1224499464.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-10-20T10:44:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Master the Ruler of the Seas writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- In that strange conversation, the old ambassador comes out with\n\"Cassiopeia weeps for her children\". He seems to have jumped to the\nconclusion that Cassie was a clone of \"Fiona\", and I suppose he wants to\ndisarm her and see what hre reaction is. But what an odd thing to say. I\nsuppose it's a play on the Jewish \"Rachel weeps for her children\". As far\nas I know, Cassiopeia's only child was Andromeda, chained to a rock as an\noffering to the sea monster sent against Cassiopeia's country" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And where was that country?\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0810200350s58d494a0xbb12c67518c9ad1e@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-20T10:50:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<1606.72.171.0.143.1224499464.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, well-caught.\n\nIt was Israel, wasn't it? Phoenician Aethiopia included the Levant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 6:44 AM, wrote:\nMaster the Ruler of the Seas writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- In that strange conversation, the old ambassador comes out with\n\"Cassiopeia weeps for her children\". He seems to have jumped to the\nconclusion that Cassie was a clone of \"Fiona\", and I suppose he wants to\ndisarm her and see what hre reaction is. But what an odd thing to say. I\nsuppose it's a play on the Jewish \"Rachel weeps for her children\". As far\nas I know, Cassiopeia's only child was Andromeda, chained to a rock as an\noffering to the sea monster sent against Cassiopeia's country" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And where was that country?\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14368.72.171.0.143.1224500262.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-10-20T10:57:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<1606.72.171.0.143.1224499464.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oopsies! I thought it was Phoenicia, but it was actually Ethiopia or one\nof them. I see that the other Cassiopeia is associated with Phoenix.\n\nHere is a very good summary of the myth:\nhttp://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Cassiopeia-(mythology).\n\nIt is interesting, and helpful, to have a star map handy when reading\nmythology generally and this myth in particular.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Master the Ruler of the Seas writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- In that strange conversation, the old ambassador comes out with\n\"Cassiopeia weeps for her children\". He seems to have jumped to the\nconclusion that Cassie was a clone of \"Fiona\", and I suppose he wants to\ndisarm her and see what hre reaction is. But what an odd thing to say. I\nsuppose it's a play on the Jewish \"Rachel weeps for her children\". As\nfar\nas I know, Cassiopeia's only child was Andromeda, chained to a rock as\nan\noffering to the sea monster sent against Cassiopeia's country" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And where was that country?\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-20T11:09:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0810200350s58d494a0xbb12c67518c9ad1e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:20 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nOh, well-caught.\n\nIt was Israel, wasn't it? Phoenician Aethiopia included the Levant.\n\nOn Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 6:44 AM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Master the Ruler of the Seas writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "- In that strange conversation, the old ambassador comes out with\n\"Cassiopeia weeps for her children\". He seems to have jumped to the\nconclusion that Cassie was a clone of \"Fiona\", and I suppose he wants to\ndisarm her and see what hre reaction is. But what an odd thing to say. I\nsuppose it's a play on the Jewish \"Rachel weeps for her children\". As\nfar\nas I know, Cassiopeia's only child was Andromeda, chained to a rock as\nan\noffering to the sea monster sent against Cassiopeia's country" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And where was that country?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it was supposed to be vaguely Phoenicia. I vaguely recall from\nsomewhere that the Perseus/Andromeda myth is supposed to have its roots in\nsome old Near Eastern myth with a hero battling a sea monster. Don't think\nthere's any particular connection to Israel." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5797.72.171.0.143.1224500990.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-10-20T11:09:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0810200350s58d494a0xbb12c67518c9ad1e@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, well-caught." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was Israel, wasn't it? Phoenician Aethiopia included the Levant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that is true. And the other one could be Yemen, Nubia or Abbysinia.\nAll of these countries had really a lot to do with each other: straight\nshot down the Red Sea from Kana'an to the Horn of Africa. Also, the Bni\nIsrael in the (pre-Babylonian captivity with post-attendant\nYahwist/crypto-Zoroastrian redaction of history and scripture) old days\nwere pretty much indistinguishable from Phoenicians, religiously and\nculturally.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2149.72.171.0.143.1224501097.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-10-20T11:11:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr Thalassocrat writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it was supposed to be vaguely Phoenicia. I vaguely recall from\nsomewhere that the Perseus/Andromeda myth is supposed to have its roots in\nsome old Near Eastern myth with a hero battling a sea monster. Don't think\nthere's any particular connection to Israel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have to watch that Ezra guy.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0810200416m2b356419kc24041089439887@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-20T11:16:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<14368.72.171.0.143.1224500262.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Phoenicia, Aethiopia--either way it's where Baal was worshipped,\nright? They had human sacrifices, at least according to the Bible.\nChesterton has a whole bit on it in The Everlasting Man, about how the\nPhoenician civilization was just about the only thing the Romans and\nthe Jews hated equally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/20/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOopsies! I thought it was Phoenicia, but it was actually Ethiopia or one\nof them. I see that the other Cassiopeia is associated with Phoenix.\n\nHere is a very good summary of the myth:\nhttp://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Cassiopeia-(mythology).\n\nIt is interesting, and helpful, to have a star map handy when reading\nmythology generally and this myth in particular.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Master the Ruler of the Seas writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "- In that strange conversation, the old ambassador comes out with\n\"Cassiopeia weeps for her children\". He seems to have jumped to the\nconclusion that Cassie was a clone of \"Fiona\", and I suppose he wants to\ndisarm her and see what hre reaction is. But what an odd thing to say. I\nsuppose it's a play on the Jewish \"Rachel weeps for her children\". As\nfar\nas I know, Cassiopeia's only child was Andromeda, chained to a rock as\nan\noffering to the sea monster sent against Cassiopeia's country" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And where was that country?\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<13818.72.171.0.143.1224503003.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-10-20T11:43:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0810200416m2b356419kc24041089439887@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Phoenicia, Aethiopia--either way it's where Baal was worshipped,\nright? They had human sacrifices, at least according to the Bible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So did the Bni Israel, at least according to the Bible.\n\n'Baal' means 'Lord'. That's it. Contrast various names in Kings and\nChronicles. -baal becomes -bosheth ('bosheth' means 'shame'). Remember\nthat the order of books does not correspond to historical order:\nChronicles is the earlier work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chesterton has a whole bit on it in The Everlasting Man, about how the\nPhoenician civilization was just about the only thing the Romans and\nthe Jews hated equally." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chesterton is right a lot of the time, and clever and amusing even when he\nis wrong. Not having read 'TEM' I have no idea which he is being here.\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0810200513y4854a1c9p5e1a3291f3db4e64@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-20T12:13:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<13818.72.171.0.143.1224503003.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course--I'm not using Chesterton as gold-star history here. The\nquestion is whether we can infer that Wolfe had the sacrifices to\nPhoenician false gods in mind when he threw that \"Cassiopeia weeps for\nher children\" bit in. It's certainly an interesting thought. The\nSquid God is already Cthulhu layered with Cetus and sort of the pulp\nnotion of a human sacrifice to quiet an angry volcano or storm. Are\nwe meant to also take him as the deity honored by human sacrifice\naround the southern and eastern side of the Mediterranean? I don't\nknow if this points toward any other interpretive clues, although it\nis interesting that what we typically consider a Greek myth is set in\nwhat is now Israel. That's rich turf--I doubt Wolfe would leave it\nfallow.\n\nOr maybe it's just Wolfe's guess at the origin of the Cetus myth.\nUltimately the myth is about a queen trying to sacrifice her daughter\nto a monster, and the heroic foreigner who stops the sacrifice. Maybe\nWolfe takes the myth as in part chiding by the Greeks of the\nchild-sacrificing practice of their neighbors?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 7:43 AM, wrote:\nPhoenicia, Aethiopia--either way it's where Baal was worshipped,\nright? They had human sacrifices, at least according to the Bible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So did the Bni Israel, at least according to the Bible.\n\n'Baal' means 'Lord'. That's it. Contrast various names in Kings and\nChronicles. -baal becomes -bosheth ('bosheth' means 'shame'). Remember\nthat the order of books does not correspond to historical order:\nChronicles is the earlier work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Chesterton has a whole bit on it in The Everlasting Man, about how the\nPhoenician civilization was just about the only thing the Romans and\nthe Jews hated equally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chesterton is right a lot of the time, and clever and amusing even when he\nis wrong. Not having read 'TEM' I have no idea which he is being here.\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9886.72.171.0.143.1224507381.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-10-20T12:56:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0810200513y4854a1c9p5e1a3291f3db4e64@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course--I'm not using Chesterton as gold-star history here. The\nquestion is whether we can infer that Wolfe had the sacrifices to\nPhoenician false gods in mind when he threw that \"Cassiopeia weeps for\nher children\" bit in. It's certainly an interesting thought. The\nSquid God is already Cthulhu layered with Cetus and sort of the pulp\nnotion of a human sacrifice to quiet an angry volcano or storm." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read a *way* interesting book about this, which does happen, in this\ninstance among the Mapuche of Chile. What actually is done (or was done in\nthis case) is that there is a disaster, volcano, storm, tsunami or\nwhatever and after the fact the sacrifice is done. The book is called 'The\nHighest Altar': I have a copy around here somewhere.\n\nThe Mapuche are *very* traditional and their religious practice completely\nnon-Christian (altough there are Catholic and Protestant Mapuche (the\nIncas never conquered the Mapuche, the Spanish never conquered the\nMapuche, the Chileans worked out an agreement with them)). Further north,\nin the region around Lake Titicaca, the author investigates similar\npractices which have become more or less syncretic and (here it becomes\nvery interesting) which the practitioners very consciously correlate with\nEuropean derived occult practices and Satanism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Are\nwe meant to also take him as the deity honored by human sacrifice\naround the southern and eastern side of the Mediterranean?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's his nephew Dagon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I don't\nknow if this points toward any other interpretive clues, although it\nis interesting that what we typically consider a Greek myth is set in\nwhat is now Israel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who was Cadmus? Where did he come from? And Danae?\n\nWhere did people *think* that Perseus was from?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " That's rich turf--I doubt Wolfe would leave it\nfallow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is one of, like, three people I've met who really understands this\nstuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or maybe it's just Wolfe's guess at the origin of the Cetus myth.\nUltimately the myth is about a queen trying to sacrifice her daughter\nto a monster, and the heroic foreigner who stops the sacrifice." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On one level. I don't think I would say 'ultimately'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Maybe\nWolfe takes the myth as in part chiding by the Greeks of the\nchild-sacrificing practice of their neighbors?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt it, but maybe.\n\nMaybe I was unclear about the Ba'al bit: all of these Kana'anim, Bni\nIsrael, Phoenicians, the lot of them, had lots of gods and one in\nparticular who was in charge of where you lived, addressed as Creator and\nMaster (or Creatress and Mistress) of the World, worshipped aniconically,\netc. Who it was varied on what city you were in. The Bni Israel, in the\ntime of David and Solomon, addressed YHWH as ba'al. Later on, the language\nchanged, the title confused with a proper name and applied only to the\nother gods of other western Semitic cities.\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0810200836n40548b80r8a4454864cc5039b@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-20T15:36:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<9886.72.171.0.143.1224507381.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excellent reply. Thanks. I did in fact get the bit about Ba'al--in\nfact, I'd known that and forgotten it from long ago. Once you know\nthat \"Beelzebub\" means \"Lord of the Flies\" or \"Prince of Flies\" it's\nactually quite intuitive that \"Ba'al\" is just \"lord\" or \"prince\"--a\ntitle, rather than a name.\n\nI'm also fairly surprised that I missed that Wolfe, by connecting\nCthulhu to Phoenician deities, was only following Lovecraft--it's not\nas though I haven't read The Shadow over Innsmouth, and, heck, even\nBuffy the Vampire Slayer made the connection.\n\nPerseus was Greek in all the senses that count, right? His mother was\nalmost the mother of Greece, as the Greeks are the Danaans. I suppose\npeople thought he was from Serifos.\n\nI'll look into The Highest Altar, it sounds fascinating. And thank\nyou for the word \"aniconic.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/20/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOf course--I'm not using Chesterton as gold-star history here. The\nquestion is whether we can infer that Wolfe had the sacrifices to\nPhoenician false gods in mind when he threw that \"Cassiopeia weeps for\nher children\" bit in. It's certainly an interesting thought. The\nSquid God is already Cthulhu layered with Cetus and sort of the pulp\nnotion of a human sacrifice to quiet an angry volcano or storm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I read a *way* interesting book about this, which does happen, in this\ninstance among the Mapuche of Chile. What actually is done (or was done in\nthis case) is that there is a disaster, volcano, storm, tsunami or\nwhatever and after the fact the sacrifice is done. The book is called 'The\nHighest Altar': I have a copy around here somewhere.\n\nThe Mapuche are *very* traditional and their religious practice completely\nnon-Christian (altough there are Catholic and Protestant Mapuche (the\nIncas never conquered the Mapuche, the Spanish never conquered the\nMapuche, the Chileans worked out an agreement with them)). Further north,\nin the region around Lake Titicaca, the author investigates similar\npractices which have become more or less syncretic and (here it becomes\nvery interesting) which the practitioners very consciously correlate with\nEuropean derived occult practices and Satanism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Are\nwe meant to also take him as the deity honored by human sacrifice\naround the southern and eastern side of the Mediterranean?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's his nephew Dagon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I don't\nknow if this points toward any other interpretive clues, although it\nis interesting that what we typically consider a Greek myth is set in\nwhat is now Israel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who was Cadmus? Where did he come from? And Danae?\n\nWhere did people *think* that Perseus was from?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " That's rich turf--I doubt Wolfe would leave it\nfallow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe is one of, like, three people I've met who really understands this\nstuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or maybe it's just Wolfe's guess at the origin of the Cetus myth.\nUltimately the myth is about a queen trying to sacrifice her daughter\nto a monster, and the heroic foreigner who stops the sacrifice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On one level. I don't think I would say 'ultimately'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Maybe\nWolfe takes the myth as in part chiding by the Greeks of the\nchild-sacrificing practice of their neighbors?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I doubt it, but maybe.\n\nMaybe I was unclear about the Ba'al bit: all of these Kana'anim, Bni\nIsrael, Phoenicians, the lot of them, had lots of gods and one in\nparticular who was in charge of where you lived, addressed as Creator and\nMaster (or Creatress and Mistress) of the World, worshipped aniconically,\netc. Who it was varied on what city you were in. The Bni Israel, in the\ntime of David and Solomon, addressed YHWH as ba'al. Later on, the language\nchanged, the title confused with a proper name and applied only to the\nother gods of other western Semitic cities.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5480.67.142.130.42.1224522185.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2008-10-20T17:03:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0810200836n40548b80r8a4454864cc5039b@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cadmus was from Phoenicia. As are Greek letters, the polis and a lot of\nother things that people think of as typically Greek.\n\nYes, Perseus was the ueber-Greek. Wasn't Danae Cadmus daughter? No, I was\nmixed up. Argos, not Thebes. They are related somewhere in there, though.\n\nAnyway, there was a lot of Phoenician influence on Greece just coming out\nof the post-Mycenaean dark ages.\n\nYou are very welcome, for the word and for everything else, such as it is!\nIt's not often that I get to go on about this stuff, which I do enjoy\nimmensely.\n\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Excellent reply. Thanks. I did in fact get the bit about Ba'al--in\nfact, I'd known that and forgotten it from long ago. Once you know\nthat \"Beelzebub\" means \"Lord of the Flies\" or \"Prince of Flies\" it's\nactually quite intuitive that \"Ba'al\" is just \"lord\" or \"prince\"--a\ntitle, rather than a name.\n\nI'm also fairly surprised that I missed that Wolfe, by connecting\nCthulhu to Phoenician deities, was only following Lovecraft--it's not\nas though I haven't read The Shadow over Innsmouth, and, heck, even\nBuffy the Vampire Slayer made the connection.\n\nPerseus was Greek in all the senses that count, right? His mother was\nalmost the mother of Greece, as the Greeks are the Danaans. I suppose\npeople thought he was from Serifos.\n\nI'll look into The Highest Altar, it sounds fascinating. And thank\nyou for the word \"aniconic.\"\n\nOn 10/20/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of course--I'm not using Chesterton as gold-star history here. The\nquestion is whether we can infer that Wolfe had the sacrifices to\nPhoenician false gods in mind when he threw that \"Cassiopeia weeps for\nher children\" bit in. It's certainly an interesting thought. The\nSquid God is already Cthulhu layered with Cetus and sort of the pulp\nnotion of a human sacrifice to quiet an angry volcano or storm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I read a *way* interesting book about this, which does happen, in this\ninstance among the Mapuche of Chile. What actually is done (or was done\nin\nthis case) is that there is a disaster, volcano, storm, tsunami or\nwhatever and after the fact the sacrifice is done. The book is called\n'The\nHighest Altar': I have a copy around here somewhere.\n\nThe Mapuche are *very* traditional and their religious practice\ncompletely\nnon-Christian (altough there are Catholic and Protestant Mapuche (the\nIncas never conquered the Mapuche, the Spanish never conquered the\nMapuche, the Chileans worked out an agreement with them)). Further\nnorth,\nin the region around Lake Titicaca, the author investigates similar\npractices which have become more or less syncretic and (here it becomes\nvery interesting) which the practitioners very consciously correlate\nwith\nEuropean derived occult practices and Satanism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Are\nwe meant to also take him as the deity honored by human sacrifice\naround the southern and eastern side of the Mediterranean?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's his nephew Dagon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " I don't\nknow if this points toward any other interpretive clues, although it\nis interesting that what we typically consider a Greek myth is set in\nwhat is now Israel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who was Cadmus? Where did he come from? And Danae?\n\nWhere did people *think* that Perseus was from?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " That's rich turf--I doubt Wolfe would leave it\nfallow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe is one of, like, three people I've met who really understands this\nstuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Or maybe it's just Wolfe's guess at the origin of the Cetus myth.\nUltimately the myth is about a queen trying to sacrifice her daughter\nto a monster, and the heroic foreigner who stops the sacrifice." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On one level. I don't think I would say 'ultimately'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Maybe\nWolfe takes the myth as in part chiding by the Greeks of the\nchild-sacrificing practice of their neighbors?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I doubt it, but maybe.\n\nMaybe I was unclear about the Ba'al bit: all of these Kana'anim, Bni\nIsrael, Phoenicians, the lot of them, had lots of gods and one in\nparticular who was in charge of where you lived, addressed as Creator\nand\nMaster (or Creatress and Mistress) of the World, worshipped\naniconically,\netc. Who it was varied on what city you were in. The Bni Israel, in the\ntime of David and Solomon, addressed YHWH as ba'al. Later on, the\nlanguage\nchanged, the title confused with a proper name and applied only to the\nother gods of other western Semitic cities.\n\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20081028173914.EHUI3771.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo03.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2008-10-28T17:39:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<13818.72.171.0.143.1224503003.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 06:43 AM 10/20/2008, you wrote:\nPhoenicia, Aethiopia--either way it's where Baal was worshipped,\nright? They had human sacrifices, at least according to the Bible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So did the Bni Israel, at least according to the Bible.\n\n'Baal' means 'Lord'. That's it. Contrast various names in Kings and\nChronicles. -baal becomes -bosheth ('bosheth' means 'shame'). Remember\nthat the order of books does not correspond to historical order:\nChronicles is the earlier work." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just for clarity: Kings is earlier and Chronicles later. But you have \nit right that the Chronicler uses the original form of the names. \nThere are reasons for this connected with the purposes of the two books.\n\nNutria Theologia" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Chesterton has a whole bit on it in The Everlasting Man, about how the\nPhoenician civilization was just about the only thing the Romans and\nthe Jews hated equally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chesterton is right a lot of the time, and clever and amusing even when he\nis wrong. Not having read 'TEM' I have no idea which he is being here.\n\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20081028184459.NUEA4226.eastrmmtao106.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2008-10-28T18:45:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Some Theology", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0810200416m2b356419kc24041089439887@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 06:16 AM 10/20/2008, you wrote:\nPhoenicia, Aethiopia--either way it's where Baal was worshipped,\nright?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Storm King would be Baal, of course, lord of the storm. But also \nThor, Zeus, Jupiter. Probably all the same mythic structure. Baal is \nalso Husband, and rapist. Seems apropos for the description of the \nvisit to Squiddie's city.\n\nCassiopeia rather than any daughter Andromeda chained to a rock. Reis \nrather than either woman being sacrificed. \"King must die\" motif. \nAlso, though, Husband dying for his Bride, who is then rescued by angels.\n\nReis as Christ figure, then: misunderstood; bent on saving the \nbeautiful earth; dying to bring about the destruction of Satan, the \nbeing who captured earth \"before the Flood.\" (California Satanists \ngladly join Squiddie's cult, it being the same thing.)\n\nWilliam means \"Protector.\" Reis is German for \"twig, shoot\" and also \narchaically \"knight.\" The Stem of Jesse, the Messiah, in Isaiah 11:1, \n10, etc. is \"Reis.\" Reis is Christ.\n\nWilliam = Wallace. Willliam Wallace, Christian hero of recent \ncelebration. Rosenquist \"rose twig\" (Scandanavian). So, same as Reis. \nThe Christmas hymn \"Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming\" and many others.\n\nHmmm. In the Bible, the Church is both Daughter (Andromeda) and Bride \n(Cassiopeia). Both attacked by Satan, using as his agent the Sea \nBeast of Revelation 13, along with the bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, \nand Firearms!\n\nIn Matthew 24, the victory over Satan means \"wheresoever the carcass \nis, there the vultures will gather.\" But is that how Wolfe uses the reference?\n\nMaybe Reis starts out with megalomaniacal intentions and the bad gold \nis his downfall, but he is surely redeemed at the end and wins his \nname. Yet, he is using the gold to poison the various evil dragons of \nthe world, and ultimately to seek and destroy the Invader. The Evil \nGuest is probably multiple, but surely Squiddie/Satan is the evil \nguest to be expelled.\n\nYour turn.\n\nNutria\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com " } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0810281157n4e438377k74b371d18eafe377@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-28T18:57:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Some Theology", "in_reply_to": "<20081028184459.NUEA4226.eastrmmtao106.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do we have a unified devil theory in Wolfe's works yet?\n\nSomeone out there must understand the relationships, both in symbol,\nand, where applicable, in plot, among the Squid God, the Most Low God,\nAbaia, Typhon, the Ayuntiamento, Seth, Angra Mainyu, and Mr.\nMillion/Maitre/Number Five (I am sure to be missing a few)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/28/08, James B. Jordan wrote:\nAt 06:16 AM 10/20/2008, you wrote:\nPhoenicia, Aethiopia--either way it's where Baal was worshipped,\nright?\nThe Storm King would be Baal, of course, lord of the storm. But also Thor,\nZeus, Jupiter. Probably all the same mythic structure. Baal is also Husband,\nand rapist. Seems apropos for the description of the visit to Squiddie's\ncity.\n\nCassiopeia rather than any daughter Andromeda chained to a rock. Reis rather\nthan either woman being sacrificed. \"King must die\" motif. Also, though,\nHusband dying for his Bride, who is then rescued by angels.\n\nReis as Christ figure, then: misunderstood; bent on saving the beautiful\nearth; dying to bring about the destruction of Satan, the being who captured\nearth \"before the Flood.\" (California Satanists gladly join Squiddie's cult,\nit being the same thing.)\n\nWilliam means \"Protector.\" Reis is German for \"twig, shoot\" and also\narchaically \"knight.\" The Stem of Jesse, the Messiah, in Isaiah 11:1, 10,\netc. is \"Reis.\" Reis is Christ.\n\nWilliam = Wallace. Willliam Wallace, Christian hero of recent celebration.\nRosenquist \"rose twig\" (Scandanavian). So, same as Reis. The Christmas hymn\n\"Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming\" and many others.\n\nHmmm. In the Bible, the Church is both Daughter (Andromeda) and Bride\n(Cassiopeia). Both attacked by Satan, using as his agent the Sea Beast of\nRevelation 13, along with the bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms!\n\nIn Matthew 24, the victory over Satan means \"wheresoever the carcass is,\nthere the vultures will gather.\" But is that how Wolfe uses the reference?\n\nMaybe Reis starts out with megalomaniacal intentions and the bad gold is his\ndownfall, but he is surely redeemed at the end and wins his name. Yet, he is\nusing the gold to poison the various evil dragons of the world, and\nultimately to seek and destroy the Invader. The Evil Guest is probably\nmultiple, but surely Squiddie/Satan is the evil guest to be expelled.\n\nYour turn.\n\nNutria\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20081028210236.DURM2096.eastrmmtao104.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2008-10-28T21:02:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Some Theology", "in_reply_to": "<93d4039f0810281157n4e438377k74b371d18eafe377@mail.gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:57 PM 10/28/2008, you wrote:\nDo we have a unified devil theory in Wolfe's works yet?\n\nSomeone out there must understand the relationships, both in symbol,\nand, where applicable, in plot, among the Squid God, the Most Low God,\nAbaia, Typhon, the Ayuntiamento, Seth, Angra Mainyu, and Mr.\nMillion/Maitre/Number Five (I am sure to be missing a few)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, No. 5, at least, is the Antichrist, as his address (666 Street \nof the Counterfeit) indicates. Or some future clone is. \"Some day \nthey'll want us.\" Cloning prevents the future. \"We don't progress.\" \nIt just reinforces all that is bad in the present. It's anti-eschatological.\n\nThe Ayuntiamento are the Scribes and Pharisees, who have taken over, \nand don't want Silk to come and bring Outsider News.\n\nThat much at least. It is safe to say that Wolfe's \"devil theory\" is \ngoing to be the various aspects and manifestations we see in the \nBible, often presented in Lupine reworks of mythology. Hence: Fallen \nArchangel, Sea Beast, Antichrist, Man of Sin, Scribes & Pharisees, \nPharaoh, etc. reworked into Persian or Lovecraftian or whatever terms \nand then looped by the Lupe.\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/28/08, James B. Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 06:16 AM 10/20/2008, you wrote:\nPhoenicia, Aethiopia--either way it's where Baal was worshipped,\nright?\nThe Storm King would be Baal, of course, lord of the storm. But also Thor,\nZeus, Jupiter. Probably all the same mythic structure. Baal is \nalso Husband,\nand rapist. Seems apropos for the description of the visit to Squiddie's\ncity.\n\nCassiopeia rather than any daughter Andromeda chained to a rock. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reis rather\nthan either woman being sacrificed. \"King must die\" motif. Also, though,\nHusband dying for his Bride, who is then rescued by angels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Reis as Christ figure, then: misunderstood; bent on saving the beautiful\nearth; dying to bring about the destruction of Satan, the being \nwho captured\nearth \"before the Flood.\" (California Satanists gladly join \nSquiddie's cult,\nit being the same thing.)\n\nWilliam means \"Protector.\" Reis is German for \"twig, shoot\" and also\narchaically \"knight.\" The Stem of Jesse, the Messiah, in Isaiah 11:1, 10,\netc. is \"Reis.\" Reis is Christ.\n\nWilliam = Wallace. Willliam Wallace, Christian hero of recent celebration.\nRosenquist \"rose twig\" (Scandanavian). So, same as Reis. The Christmas hymn\n\"Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming\" and many others.\n\nHmmm. In the Bible, the Church is both Daughter (Andromeda) and Bride\n(Cassiopeia). Both attacked by Satan, using as his agent the Sea Beast of\nRevelation 13, along with the bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms!\n\nIn Matthew 24, the victory over Satan means \"wheresoever the carcass is,\nthere the vultures will gather.\" But is that how Wolfe uses the reference?\n\nMaybe Reis starts out with megalomaniacal intentions and the bad \ngold is his\ndownfall, but he is surely redeemed at the end and wins his name. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yet, he is\nusing the gold to poison the various evil dragons of the world, and\nultimately to seek and destroy the Invader. The Evil Guest is probably\nmultiple, but surely Squiddie/Satan is the evil guest to be expelled." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Your turn.\n\nNutria\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigelaprice at talktalk.net" }, "date": "2008-10-28T23:53:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: Some Theology", "in_reply_to": "<20081028210236.DURM2096.eastrmmtao104.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Patera Nutria observed:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Reis as Christ figure, then: misunderstood;\nbent on saving the beautiful earth; dying to\nbring about the destruction of Satan, the\nbeing who captured earth \"before the Flood.\"\n(California Satanists gladly join Squiddie's\ncult, it being the same thing.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, indeed. Reis even speaks like Jesus at times!\n\nOn page 275, we read:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He gulped, and though Cassie could not hear\nthe gulp, she saw his throat move before he\nsaid, \"I was about to tell you I didn't know\nwhat you wanted from marriage. But I do. You\ntold me. You want love. You'll get it - shaken\ndown, pressed down, and overflowing. I would\ndie for you, Cassie. I really would.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reis' comment that he would die for Cassie is obviously prophetic and\nChrist-like, but in this speech Reis is also actually quoting Jesus's words\nin Luke 6.38, which the NIV translates thus:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Give, and it will be give to you. A good\nmeasure, pressed down, shaken together\nand running over, will be poured into your\nlap. For with the measure you use, it will\nbe measured to you.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nigel" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20081029035404.PDDQ3771.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "from": { "name": "James B. Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2008-10-29T03:54:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: More Theology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Theological allegory part II.\n\n Wolfe's novels are always polyphonic. I'll leave the noir \nand Lovecraft threads to others, and try and do my duty by pointing \nto the theological/Biblical ones. Or at least contributing to that aspect.\n\nI. From the book of Revelation:\n In Revelation 12, the woman is attacked by the Dragon. \nCassie plays missionary daughter Mariah (Mary). Reis is out to poison \ndragons throughout the world with poison gold.\n With the Dragon's initial defeat, he goes after the new form \nof the woman, who is given wings of a great eagle and taken to a \nwilderness (12:14). I assume it is clear how this happens to Cassie \nat the end of the novel. Also, while a good interpretation of \nRevelation sees the Dragon cast out of heaven with the ascension of \nJesus Christ, traditional misunderstanding (a la Milton) sees this as \nthe Dragon cast down to earth at the time of the initial rebellion of \nLucifer. Wolfe may be using this motif in connection with the \n\"arrival\" on earth \"before the Flood\" of Satan/Squiddie.\n The Sky Dragon, fallen to humanity, manifests himself \nthrough Sea Beast, Land Beast, and Beast Image (Rev. 13). All this \nseems to be in AEG. Read the chapter and see how Wolfe puts a \nSF/Fantasy spin on it all. Squiddie is located in the water now, but \nhe has powers on the land (the ATF, etc.). People worship the Sea \nBeast/Squiddie. It enlists people to make war on the \"saints\" all \nover the earth. The Sea Beast's servant, the Land Beast, seeks to \ncontrol the economy (gold) (13:17).\n The Dragon, as Sea Beast, also manifests as an evil city, \nBabylon, a city seeking to control the economy (ch. 17-18). This city \nis thrown into the sea in 18:21.\n Revelation 22:20 ends, \"Come, Lord Jesus.\" This is exactly \nhow AEG ends.\n Of course, Lovecraft uses Revelation's evils also, and is \nconcerned with society as Wolfe is. How much of Wolfe's read if \nRevelation is here influence by HPL I'll leave to those with more \nLovecraftian experties to say.\n\nII. Foot would and head wound.\n In Genesis 3, the deliverer will suffer a foot wound while \ncrushing the head of the Ur-Serpent. So, it might seem that Gideon \nChase is the deliverer and Reis the serpent. Yet, Christ is head of \nthe Church, the Bride, and so the bashing in of Reis's head, in \ncontext, is a crucifixion.\n So, who is Gideon Chase who is also Gilbert Corby?\n First, he would seem to be the offspring of the sons of God \n(angels / Wolder men) and the daughters of men. Such men became \nnephilim, strong ones, men of renown (Gen. 6). [Note: though this is \na common read of Genesis 6, it does not hold water in the text. \nAnyway...] The Wolder men try to seduce human women. (\"Aliens want \nour women!!\") Woldercan is a dangerous and possibly evil place. Fish \ntalk and try to mess you up (agents of Squiddie?). The forests are \nevil, period. Women's periods, the \"distress of women,\" sometimes \ncalled \"the curse\" by women, seems to be a multiplied factor on Woldercan.\n As an offspring of \"angels/demons,\" it's no surprise that \nChase has a black heavenly chariot. Voices inside the chariot tempt \nCassie. She's not bright enough to perceive that, but Chase feared \nit, which is why he did not want her to drive it. Cassie is not real \nbright, but she's pretty innocent, and in her exalted semi-angelic \nstatus is even more so.\n\n Second, Gil-Bert means \"bright pledge/hostage,\" with the Gil \npart as \"hostage.\"\n Corby, in English/Scandavian means \"Dweller in Cor's Land,\" \nbut in French it's a diminutive of \"crow.\" This is Wolfe. I vote for Crow.\n Gideon, of course, was a warrior messiah of the book of \nJudges. He fought the followers of Baal, beginning by tearing down an \nimage of Baal. Judges 6ff.\n Chase means \"Dweller of the Wood/Huntingground.\"\n\n So: Gideon of the Forest = A Hostage Crow\n I'm not getting a BFO or AHA moment here. Given the evil \nforests of Woldercan, Gideon of the Forest might indicate a mixture \nof good and evil in him. Gil Corby is more mysterious, if I've \ntranslated aright, and I'm not sure of that.\n\n Third, however, at the moment (and I've only read the book \nonce), Gideon Chase seems like an Old Testament leader who initially \nis enlisted by the ruling powers to oppose Reis (think of \"The \nDetective of Dreams\") but eventually comes to support him, and \neventually to turn over the Bride to him. At one point Cassie, \nspeaking of his being pursued, calls him Gideon Chased, but is that \nnot also Gideon Chaste? The footwound of Gideon (so common and so \nmultivalent in Wolfe) could be that of Jacob, something that both \nhumbles him and also enables him to enter a new and more saintly life.\n\nIII. Transformations:\n It's been pointed out that Reis seems mainly a power seeker \ninitially, but then becomes messianic and sacrificial. I think also \nthat Chase has a mixed past, but becomes a new man. Reis dies for \nCassie, but in a way Chase has already done so, by letting her go.\n Big guess, and I have no way to know, but I think that, \ninspired by Reis, Chase returns to Woldercan to begin some \nhousecleaning. Cassie, who desired to \"be somebody and do something\" \ngoes to help him.\n\nFWIW.\n\nNutria\n\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2008-10-29T04:21:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: More Theology", "in_reply_to": "<20081029035404.PDDQ3771.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 28, 2008, at 10:54 PM, James B. Jordan wrote:\nTheological allegory part II.\n\n First, he would seem to be the offspring of the sons of God \n(angels / Wolder men) and the daughters of men. Such men became \nnephilim, strong ones, men of renown (Gen. 6). [Note: though this is \na common read of Genesis 6, it does not hold water in the text. \nAnyway...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note that \"The Dunwich Horror,\" one of the finest HPL tales (S.T. \nJoshi, usually quite good, totally misses the mark here; Ken Hite \nnails it in his \"Tour de Lovecraft\"), is something of a reprise of a \nwell-known story about the offspring of (a) God and a human woman.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<93d4039f0810282148w6741c9d0yaf4c6afd4e3ae1d@mail.gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-29T04:48:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: More Theology", "in_reply_to": "<20081029035404.PDDQ3771.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Gideon of the Forest\" recalls \"Vodalus of the Wood,\" doesn't it?\nCould be another clue that Gid is on the side of the Squid God." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/28/08, James B. Jordan wrote:\nTheological allegory part II.\n\n Wolfe's novels are always polyphonic. I'll leave the noir\nand Lovecraft threads to others, and try and do my duty by pointing\nto the theological/Biblical ones. Or at least contributing to that aspect.\n\nI. From the book of Revelation:\n In Revelation 12, the woman is attacked by the Dragon.\nCassie plays missionary daughter Mariah (Mary). Reis is out to poison\ndragons throughout the world with poison gold.\n With the Dragon's initial defeat, he goes after the new form\nof the woman, who is given wings of a great eagle and taken to a\nwilderness (12:14). I assume it is clear how this happens to Cassie\nat the end of the novel. Also, while a good interpretation of\nRevelation sees the Dragon cast out of heaven with the ascension of\nJesus Christ, traditional misunderstanding (a la Milton) sees this as\nthe Dragon cast down to earth at the time of the initial rebellion of\nLucifer. Wolfe may be using this motif in connection with the\n\"arrival\" on earth \"before the Flood\" of Satan/Squiddie.\n The Sky Dragon, fallen to humanity, manifests himself\nthrough Sea Beast, Land Beast, and Beast Image (Rev. 13). All this\nseems to be in AEG. Read the chapter and see how Wolfe puts a\nSF/Fantasy spin on it all. Squiddie is located in the water now, but\nhe has powers on the land (the ATF, etc.). People worship the Sea\nBeast/Squiddie. It enlists people to make war on the \"saints\" all\nover the earth. The Sea Beast's servant, the Land Beast, seeks to\ncontrol the economy (gold) (13:17).\n The Dragon, as Sea Beast, also manifests as an evil city,\nBabylon, a city seeking to control the economy (ch. 17-18). This city\nis thrown into the sea in 18:21.\n Revelation 22:20 ends, \"Come, Lord Jesus.\" This is exactly\nhow AEG ends.\n Of course, Lovecraft uses Revelation's evils also, and is\nconcerned with society as Wolfe is. How much of Wolfe's read if\nRevelation is here influence by HPL I'll leave to those with more\nLovecraftian experties to say.\n\nII. Foot would and head wound.\n In Genesis 3, the deliverer will suffer a foot wound while\ncrushing the head of the Ur-Serpent. So, it might seem that Gideon\nChase is the deliverer and Reis the serpent. Yet, Christ is head of\nthe Church, the Bride, and so the bashing in of Reis's head, in\ncontext, is a crucifixion.\n So, who is Gideon Chase who is also Gilbert Corby?\n First, he would seem to be the offspring of the sons of God\n(angels / Wolder men) and the daughters of men. Such men became\nnephilim, strong ones, men of renown (Gen. 6). [Note: though this is\na common read of Genesis 6, it does not hold water in the text.\nAnyway...] The Wolder men try to seduce human women. (\"Aliens want\nour women!!\") Woldercan is a dangerous and possibly evil place. Fish\ntalk and try to mess you up (agents of Squiddie?). The forests are\nevil, period. Women's periods, the \"distress of women,\" sometimes\ncalled \"the curse\" by women, seems to be a multiplied factor on Woldercan.\n As an offspring of \"angels/demons,\" it's no surprise that\nChase has a black heavenly chariot. Voices inside the chariot tempt\nCassie. She's not bright enough to perceive that, but Chase feared\nit, which is why he did not want her to drive it. Cassie is not real\nbright, but she's pretty innocent, and in her exalted semi-angelic\nstatus is even more so.\n\n Second, Gil-Bert means \"bright pledge/hostage,\" with the Gil\npart as \"hostage.\"\n Corby, in English/Scandavian means \"Dweller in Cor's Land,\"\nbut in French it's a diminutive of \"crow.\" This is Wolfe. I vote for Crow.\n Gideon, of course, was a warrior messiah of the book of\nJudges. He fought the followers of Baal, beginning by tearing down an\nimage of Baal. Judges 6ff.\n Chase means \"Dweller of the Wood/Huntingground.\"\n\n So: Gideon of the Forest = A Hostage Crow\n I'm not getting a BFO or AHA moment here. Given the evil\nforests of Woldercan, Gideon of the Forest might indicate a mixture\nof good and evil in him. Gil Corby is more mysterious, if I've\ntranslated aright, and I'm not sure of that.\n\n Third, however, at the moment (and I've only read the book\nonce), Gideon Chase seems like an Old Testament leader who initially\nis enlisted by the ruling powers to oppose Reis (think of \"The\nDetective of Dreams\") but eventually comes to support him, and\neventually to turn over the Bride to him. At one point Cassie,\nspeaking of his being pursued, calls him Gideon Chased, but is that\nnot also Gideon Chaste? The footwound of Gideon (so common and so\nmultivalent in Wolfe) could be that of Jacob, something that both\nhumbles him and also enables him to enter a new and more saintly life.\n\nIII. Transformations:\n It's been pointed out that Reis seems mainly a power seeker\ninitially, but then becomes messianic and sacrificial. I think also\nthat Chase has a mixed past, but becomes a new man. Reis dies for\nCassie, but in a way Chase has already done so, by letting her go.\n Big guess, and I have no way to know, but I think that,\ninspired by Reis, Chase returns to Woldercan to begin some\nhousecleaning. Cassie, who desired to \"be somebody and do something\"\ngoes to help him.\n\nFWIW.\n\nNutria\n\n\n\nJames B. Jordan\nDirector, Biblical Horizons\nBox 1096\nNiceville, FL 32588\nhttp://www.biblicalhorizons.com" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4909A70B.6040104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-10-30T12:22:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: More Theology", "in_reply_to": "<20081029035404.PDDQ3771.eastrmmtao101.cox.net@eastrmimpo01.cox.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "AEG is packed with Christian symbolism. There's a lot of the Book of \nRomans in here.\n\nNotice the two bracelets Cassie receives from Reis. The gold one is \nheavy, barbaric, and deadly because it is made from radioactive gold \nthat cannot be purified enough (p. 96). It's like something a Volcano \nGod would give (p. 74). To me this looks like the Old Covenant of the \nLaw, given at the top of a burning mountain. The diamond one is pure and \nbeautiful, clear and flawless. This represents the New Covenant of grace.\n\nReis initially wanted to win over Chase, and he was willing to destroy \nCassie to show his power in order to do this. \"It was to be an \nexhibition of my power, something to frighten Chase -- to frighten him \ninto my camp if possible.\" (p. 125). This looks like salvation \"to the \nJews first and also to the Greek\" (Romans 1:16).\n\nGideon is an Old-Testament name. He acts as a Svengali to Cassie's \nTrilby, and Svengali was a Jew. He has written books of moral philosophy \n(p. 27) and insists that people not use the words \"good\" and \"evil\" \nloosely (pp. 14-15). He takes Cassie to a quaking mountain to awaken her \nto her potential. Once he takes Cassie to Reis he vanishes from the \nstory -- now she represents both Jews and gen\n\nMargaret seems to represent living according to the Law. She keeps the \nletter of honesty but breaks the spirit of it with her trash-can trick \n(pp. 82-83). She is a werewolf and their nature is to \"want the wild and \na liberation from human morality.\" (p. 207). \"When the commandment came, \nsin revived and I died\" (Romans 7:9).\n\nCassie's address changes may reflect her changing spiritual state.\n1) The East vs. West address -- \"As far as the east is from the west, so \nfar hath he removed our transgressions from us.\" (Psalm 103:12).\n2) Apartment 3A is half of a whole, representing Cassie's incompleteness \nwithout the love of God. She once let a magician saw her in half (p. 197).\n3) Apartment 301 reflects \"Add nothing to God and you get good.\" The \nthree and one represent the Trinity, and the zero is adding nothing, so \ngoodness comes by the grace of God.\n4) Being on the fifth floor instead of the third suggests Cassie is \nbeing raised to a higher level.\n\nIn the end, Cassie is on a long journey, looking for the return of \nChrist. She is helped in the wilderness by the fire of the Volcano God \n(Holy Spirit)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-10-30T18:43:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: More Theology", "in_reply_to": "<4909A70B.6040104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave Tallman writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "AEG is packed with Christian symbolism. There's a lot of the Book of \nRomans in here. \n\nNotice the two bracelets Cassie receives from Reis. The gold one is heavy, \nbarbaric, and deadly because it is made from radioactive gold that cannot \nbe purified enough (p. 96)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nHmmm, any reference to Lafferty's \"Golden Trabant?\" \n\n\nhartshorn \n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "<490B2C63.2080902@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2008-10-31T16:03:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: More Theology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*Andy Robertson wrote:\nHmmm, any reference to Lafferty's \"Golden Trabant?\" \n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read that and it looks like it will be hard to find around \nhere. The only online summary I found was here:\nhttp://www.mulle-kybernetik.com/RAL/MT/shortstories.html:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Being the only one to know the location of an asteroid makes you \ncertainly interesting. If that asteroid consists of pure gold you're \nsure to make many new friends. Until you lead them there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Offhand, that doesn't sound like a close connection. Could you elaborate \non the connections you see?\n\n\n\n*" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2008-11-01T17:26:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) AEG: More Theology", "in_reply_to": "<490B2C63.2080902@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave Tallman writes: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*Andy Robertson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hmmm, any reference to Lafferty's \"Golden Trabant?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I haven't read that and it looks like it will be hard to find around here. \nThe only online summary I found was here:\nhttp://www.mulle-kybernetik.com/RAL/MT/shortstories.html:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Being the only one to know the location of an asteroid makes you \ncertainly interesting. If that asteroid consists of pure gold you're sure \nto make many new friends. Until you lead them there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Offhand, that doesn't sound like a close connection. Could you elaborate \non the connections you see?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\n\nTrabant was exploited until the riches from it unsettled the evil cabals who \ncontrol the world, at which point it was poisoned by radiation. \n\nOne man kept on going back - quoting from memory, \n\n\" . . . but when Flyn passed the gold to him, he did it with a hand that \nwas all splintered bone, with only a little blackened flesh around the heel. \n\n\"Harry Brobst raised his eyebrows, but he didn't raise them too far. An old \ngold dealer meets all sorts.\" \n\n\nhartshorn \n\n \n\nhttp://www.thenightland.co.uk \n\n01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-01-04T05:50:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 4:42 AM, Mr Thalassocrat\n wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another question: who shot Gid, and why? Presumably not Bill, presumably not\nthe FBI. It looks like the work of Squiddie, or the ATF -?and I think they\nare certainly an arm of Squiddie. Why would Squiddie or the ATF be out for\nGid at that point? Maybe this: Squiddie wants to use Cassie to ensnare Bill,\nas she does, in effect, in the end (because Bill would surely not have stuck\naround to be killed if Cassie hadn't been held captive). When Bill shows up\nat teh cast party, Cassie immediately tries to get Margaret to contact Gid.\nMargaret tells Squiddie that Reis has fallen for Cassie, but that Cassie is\ntrying to get help from Gid to avoid his clutches. So Gid has to go." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I favor the Squiddies. We are told that they are arrogant, they are\nloners and outcasts, they don't care about other humans (like bellhops\nor security guards).\n\nA lone pistoleer striding down a broad hallway in a tony building in\nplain sight, firing poorly, and then recklessly pursuing Gideon into\nthe room all fit the Squiddie profile to a T; but we're told to\ndisregard it being the FBI, and the ATF would've similarly used\noverwhelming paramilitary firepower." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] } ] }