# Laundress and Star (AEG spoilers) *The Urth list — 32 messages, 10 voices, 16 Oct 2008* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Dave Tallman *16 Oct 2008, 08:20* In Chapter 3, Dr. Chase takes Cassie to a mountain which he says is alive and that its wife is a "laundress." This is likely to be Maple Mountain in Ontario, Canada. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_Mountain), "Long before recreationists, bureaucrats and business interests were turned on by the mountain, the Temagami First Nation reined over it. They called the mountain /Chee-bay-jing/, meaning "the place where the spirits go". It was a sacred site, the most powerful in their realm." The "laundress" reference may not be a Native American legend, however. I found a reference to a "Washer at the Ford," a form of banshee in Celtic legend. If a soldier saw an old woman washing bloody garments in the river, this predicted his death in battle. This legend is also connected to Modron, Morrigan, and Morgan le Fey. Cassie's middle name is Fiona, which is derived from a Gaelic word meaning white, or fair. Bill Reis' son Rian is also a Gaelic name meaning "little king." Cassie says she will be going out with a banshee (p. 64). She fills the theater with "wailing ghosts" (p. 53) in warning about a dangerous honeymoon in the play. This predicts the disaster of her romance with Bill Reis -- Cassie is like a banshee, and like Cassandra in predicting evil which is not believed (p. 64). Speaking of names, her first is actually Cassiopeia, the queen in Greek legend who boasted of her beauty and offended a sea god, so that her daughter Andromeda was chained to a rock as a sacrifice to the sea monster Cefus. (Cassiopeia and Andromeda are also constellations, related to "stars.") Perseus saved Andromeda, and married her. Perseus was the son of Danae by Zeus, who seduced her in the form of a shower of gold. Simonedes of Ceos (source of the "evil guest" quote) wrote a poem about Danea and Perseus being cast into the sea. Her character in "Dating the Volcano God" is named Mariah Brownlea. In the context of a musical, Mariah recalls "They Call the Wind Mariah" from "Paint Your Wagon." Wind connects to her stormy fate. Brownlea suggests a "brown lea," a grassy green field (like the green goddess) that has become withered and brown. Her lipstick is "ultra natural ash rose" (p. 30). "Ash Rose" is a song by Helen Trevillion, who writes Celtic music. It contains the line "Rose to ash and ash to dust," another foreshadowing of the loss of Cassie's beauty. One quibble -- Cassie's address is 181 East Arbor Boulevard, apartment 301 (per the assassin, p. 249 -- and Cassie agrees that this is correct). Why is the mirror-image apartment of her neighbors numbered 3B (p. 52)? Shouldn't her apartment be 3A? --- ### John Watkins *16 Oct 2008, 16:05 · in reply to Henry Eissler* Heh. I did too. I need to reread. > On 10/16/08, Henry Eissler wrote: > Dave Tallman wrote: >> The "laundress" reference may not be a Native American legend, however. I >> found a reference to a "Washer at the Ford," a form of banshee in Celtic >> legend. If a soldier saw an old woman washing bloody garments in the river, >> this predicted his death in battle. This legend is also connected to Modron, >> Morrigan, and Morgan le Fey. Cassie's middle name is Fiona, which is derived >> from a Gaelic word meaning white, or fair. Bill Reis' son Rian is also a >> Gaelic name meaning "little king." Cassie says she will be going out with a >> banshee (p. 64). She fills the theater with "wailing ghosts" (p. 53) in >> warning about a dangerous honeymoon in the play. This predicts the disaster >> of her romance with Bill Reis -- Cassie is like a banshee, and like >> Cassandra in predicting evil which is not believed (p. 64). > For what it's worth-- Margaret Briggs describes herself in her > introduction as "...an expert seamstress and laundress, ...". Then, at the > cast party, whenVincent Palma is speaking of banshees Norma asks, "doesn't > Cassie have a grey neighbour right now?" Margaret says, "She's talking > about me." > And I thought she was so nice. > ---H > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Henry Eissler *16 Oct 2008, 16:59 · in reply to Dave Tallman* > Dave Tallman wrote: > > The "laundress" reference may not be a Native American legend, > however. I found a reference to a "Washer at the Ford," a form of > banshee in Celtic legend. If a soldier saw an old woman washing bloody > garments in the river, this predicted his death in battle. This legend > is also connected to Modron, Morrigan, and Morgan le Fey. Cassie's > middle name is Fiona, which is derived from a Gaelic word meaning > white, or fair. Bill Reis' son Rian is also a Gaelic name meaning > "little king." Cassie says she will be going out with a banshee (p. > 64). She fills the theater with "wailing ghosts" (p. 53) in warning > about a dangerous honeymoon in the play. This predicts the disaster of > her romance with Bill Reis -- Cassie is like a banshee, and like > Cassandra in predicting evil which is not believed (p. 64). For what it's worth-- Margaret Briggs describes herself in her introduction as "...an expert seamstress and laundress, ...". Then, at the cast party, whenVincent Palma is speaking of banshees Norma asks, "doesn't Cassie have a grey neighbour right now?" Margaret says, "She's talking about me." And I thought she was so nice. ---H --- ### Dave Tallman *18 Oct 2008, 22:10 · in reply to Henry Eissler* You may be onto something about Margaret Briggs. 1) She is described as a small gray woman (p. 54) with a colorless face (p.57). 2) She doesn't think to get a straw to preserve Cassie's lipstick (p. 57), so she may not use it herself. Insensitivity to color is a sign of a werewolf. (p. 206). 3) She bobs as she walks (p. 59). This could be the "swift loping walk, even in women." (p. 206). 4) She finds out very quickly at the party that Jimmy Warshawsky is dead (p. 65), when she has almost no time to do it and few would gossip with her. Did she already know? 5) Jimmy almost bumped into Margaret at the theater (p.56). Did she pick up the scent of near-death then? I'm almost convinced the strange changes in Cassie's address mean something. Early on, she's: 1) On West Arbor (p. 81). 2) Next to apartment 3B (p. 52), which implies it's a small building or a low floor. It's only a step from the elevator to her door (p. 52). 3) Eighteen blocks from the successful Sharon Bench, probably on the poor side of town (p. 24). 4) Within a short walk of a Baskin-Robbins (p. 43). It's not a big, upscale store since only a single surly teenager is on duty there. Later: 1) She has a doorman who calls to screen her visitors (p. 116). 2) She's on the fifth floor (p. 111). 3) The address is 181 East Arbor Boulevard, apartment 301 (p. 249). She didn't just move to a fancier place with her success. She had the same upstairs neighbor, Brian Pickins (p. 250). I think reality is being warped to make her surroundings fit with being a star. People start think she is famous and ask for autographs before they even know her name. She's referred to on TV by Sharon as a "famous actress" after giving only one outstanding performance (p. 89). This may be part of the magic Chase worked to make her a star. Probably Reis would have been suspicious of an actress out of nowhere who suddenly became talented overnight. He might suspect the change was a temporary glamor. But if her circumstances and people's memories were altered to fit, then she might be better bait. --- ### Henry Eissler *19 Oct 2008, 18:07 · in reply to Dave Tallman* You know, I'm sure you're on to something about the address. As far as we know, she resides in only 4 places through the course of the book: 1) Her apartment in Kingsport, which, as you point out, changes from the 3rd floor to the 5th, from 301 to 3A, and from W. Arbor to E. Arbor. 2) Her hotel room in Springfield. 3) Her hotel room in Kololahi., supposedly in the South Pacific- but when Sharon (who may be lying) is asked what time it is in Kingsport, it's just about the same. (p. 236) (remember that Cassie's a late riser.) 4) Her room at the palace. I guess she's only there for a couple of days. Only the one in Kingsport goes through these changes? (And Kingsport is in the same timezone as Great Takanga?) At the very end of the book, in the conversation with Ambassador Klauser, he points out two things- time is an illusion, and the laws of physics are not the same everywhere. Forgive, please, a digression: India clearly knew about the diamond bracelet before Cassie received it (p. 140). Then says she was there when Wally gave it (p. 174). And much earlier, when she's talking about the gold bracelet, Gideon seems to know already about the diamond bracelet (p. 74). And, of course, when Wally gives it, he's just a holographic projection. During that conversation, he calls her "Queen Cassiopeia of Takanga", which is what prompts her shock that he 'knows her real name'. Of course, the play 'Dating the Volcano God' imitates her life after the Springfield run- that could be easily explained by the fact that Bill (Wally) wrote the play. She doesn't recognize Lt. Aaberg (Larsberg?) when she sees him outside her window, even though he looks so much like Scott. And she forgets Mickey the stage manager's name, though she's known and worked with him for months- if not years. I haven't counted the times Cassie wakes up and thinks that what happened previously either was or might have been a dream. At one point, she says she thinks she might still be in the dream/nightmare (p. 205). All through my first reading, I couldn't escape the suspicion, that Cassie's whole life is some elaborate episode of 'Candid Camera' (or 'Punkd'), or 'The Truman Show'. That she's at the center of some spectacle, and Bill Reis is the only one not in on it. Now you mention reality changing around her, and I can't help but wonder if that's not what's going on- that she's sculpting reality around her (probably unconciously ) to be centered on her. Maybe it is all a dream; or much of it. In short, I have no idea. But I needed to get those questions (at least) off my chest. Please, share more of your insights. I'll shut up now. ---H > Dave Tallman wrote: > I'm almost convinced the strange changes in Cassie's address mean > something. Early on, she's: > > 1) On West Arbor (p. 81). > 2) Next to apartment 3B (p. 52), which implies it's a small building > or a low floor. It's only a step from the elevator to her door (p. 52). > 3) Eighteen blocks from the successful Sharon Bench, probably on the > poor side of town (p. 24). > 4) Within a short walk of a Baskin-Robbins (p. 43). It's not a big, > upscale store since only a single surly teenager is on duty there. > > Later: > 1) She has a doorman who calls to screen her visitors (p. 116). > 2) She's on the fifth floor (p. 111). > 3) The address is 181 East Arbor Boulevard, apartment 301 (p. 249). > > She didn't just move to a fancier place with her success. She had the > same upstairs neighbor, Brian Pickins (p. 250). > > I think reality is being warped to make her surroundings fit with > being a star. People start think she is famous and ask for autographs > before they even know her name. She's referred to on TV by Sharon as > a "famous actress" after giving only one outstanding performance (p. 89). > > This may be part of the magic Chase worked to make her a star. > Probably Reis would have been suspicious of an actress out of nowhere > who suddenly became talented overnight. He might suspect the change > was a temporary glamor. But if her circumstances and people's memories > were altered to fit, then she might be better bait. --- ### Dave Tallman *20 Oct 2008, 00:09 · in reply to Henry Eissler* Great observation about the time zone. Of course Cassie wouldn't start to get up early when she is pampered royalty -- she'd sleep later, if anything. Possible explanations: 1) Sharon was called on a cell phone, and she's close by -- perhaps searching for Cassie. 2) Sharon is lying about the time for unknown reasons (I don't care for this one). 3) Cassie's need to speak to Sharon has warped reality again, and made the two times correspond. This fits the time as illusion theory. I don't see as many difficulties with the bracelet and who knows about it. 1) India mentions diamonds, but she could have simply received a hint from Reis like "Do you think Ms. Casey would like diamonds?" 2) When India says she was there when Wally gave her the bracelet she must mean the gold one. She doesn't know he took it back. 3) Chase assumes that the bracelet was a diamond one at first. This may be based on his research into the kind of gifts Reis gives to women he is trying to attract. The solid gold bracelet arouses his suspicions, and indeed Reis admits ill intent at the time he gave that gift. There are interesting parallels with the Volcano God play, all right. Did you notice that the actor playing the island chief in the play is Porter Penniman? His character hires Seurat, the assassin of Mildred in the other play, "Ah shall never agin enlist no smelly li'l foreigners to wring your pretty little neck." (p. 61). I think this implies a connection between King Kanoa and the assassin who visits Cassie in her room. Kanoa seems to want her to become a puppet ruler, married to him and probably subject to the Storm King. Speaking of dreams, the Volcano God play contains two dream sequences. My theory on the reality-warping is that Cassie has been temporarily raised to an angelic level and unconsciously bends events in her favor. This also explains: 1) The just-in-time rescue by the flying beings. 2) The manifestation of Vince as Volcano God to bring her fire. 3) Her final words: "Wally! Come back to me!" Wally promised to be with her in death, and she has maintained a sense of his presence which finally fails when she is far enough out of range of the beings who helped raise her to this level of power. There are multiple references to angels, such as Reis as the angel of the play. Margaret complements her singing, and seems to censor herself from saying it was like an angel (p. 84), since she might think that was blasphemy. --- ### Mr Thalassocrat *20 Oct 2008, 09:42 · in reply to Henry Eissler* > On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 3:29 AM, Henry Eissler < > henryeissleriii at mindspring.com> wrote: > > > For what it's worth-- Margaret Briggs describes herself in her > introduction as "...an expert seamstress and laundress, ...". Then, at the > cast party, whenVincent Palma is speaking of banshees Norma asks, "doesn't > Cassie have a grey neighbour right now?" Margaret says, "She's talking > about me." > And I thought she was so nice. Margaret is such an enigma! Just some random points, without being able to make much sense of anything ... - She's Margaret Briggs, and this is a story where initials seem to be important in fixing identities. Cassie places Mariah Brownley in "Dating the Volcano God". Mariah is the daughter of a missionary; Margaret is church-y. - Cassie kind of turns into a Margaret - "a bent and barefoot old woman dressed in rags" when she is recused from the island, destitute at least until she gets back to her home town & her strong box. - I hope that the reference to the "anti-cloning laws" in the old ambassador's strange conversation with Cassie is a red herring. But if not - Cassie as a clone of Margaret? - In that strange conversation, the old ambassador comes out with "Cassiopeia weeps for her children". He seems to have jumped to the conclusion that Cassie was a clone of "Fiona", and I suppose he wants to disarm her and see what hre reaction is. But what an odd thing to say. I suppose it's a play on the Jewish "Rachel weeps for her children". As far as I know, Cassiopeia's only child was Andromeda, chained to a rock as an offering to the sea monster sent against Cassiopeia's country by Poseidon as a punishment for her vanity. Cassie seems to be both mother and daughter in this - she is vain, she is punished for it, in a sense, and she does sort of get offered up to sea monster. Ummm ... dunno. - Do we ever really get an explanation for why Margaret was abducted/arrested? As far as I can work out, it must have been the FBI which did it (and I think this is when Gid "comes in from the cold", induced to re-establish contact with the FBI to secure her release). (And keeping on a tangent: why on earth does Ebony choose to stay in protective custody??) - But more particularly, Cassie never tries to get in touch with Margaret after her release. Sure, she's whisked off to the Pacific almost at the same time as it happens. But she calls Zelda, Sharon, India, Gid from the Pacific, but not Margaret, and we never hear of her asking after her or thinking of her. Until she runs into her on the street on returning from Cairns - Margaret just happens to be walking by .... - Does Cassie have Doubts about Margaret - does she think that maybe M was in cahoots with thieves after her nice new bracelet or something? - I have to be suspicious that maybe Margaret is working for the Squid God. Who else knows about the paralegal upstairs; does he become a target for Squiddie's malevolence because he loves Cassie's singing? Who knows better than Margaret about Cassie's obsession with her weight (despite wighing 100 pounds or less)? - recalling that the assassin taunts her with "pudginess". The picture Scott has of Cassie dancing with Gil/Gid - Margaret has a camera. I keep trying to find a way to make sense of this very, very strange book - and it ain't working :) Another question: who shot Gid, and why? Presumably not Bill, presumably not the FBI. It looks like the work of Squiddie, or the ATF - and I think they are certainly an arm of Squiddie. Why would Squiddie or the ATF be out for Gid at that point? Maybe this: Squiddie wants to use Cassie to ensnare Bill, as she does, in effect, in the end (because Bill would surely not have stuck around to be killed if Cassie hadn't been held captive). When Bill shows up at teh cast party, Cassie immediately tries to get Margaret to contact Gid. Margaret tells Squiddie that Reis has fallen for Cassie, but that Cassie is trying to get help from Gid to avoid his clutches. So Gid has to go. Or something .... --- ### brunians at brunians.org *20 Oct 2008, 10:44 · in reply to Mr Thalassocrat* Master the Ruler of the Seas writes: > - In that strange conversation, the old ambassador comes out with > "Cassiopeia weeps for her children". He seems to have jumped to the > conclusion that Cassie was a clone of "Fiona", and I suppose he wants to > disarm her and see what hre reaction is. But what an odd thing to say. I > suppose it's a play on the Jewish "Rachel weeps for her children". As far > as I know, Cassiopeia's only child was Andromeda, chained to a rock as an > offering to the sea monster sent against Cassiopeia's country And where was that country? . --- ### John Watkins *20 Oct 2008, 10:50 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* Oh, well-caught. It was Israel, wasn't it? Phoenician Aethiopia included the Levant. > On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 6:44 AM, wrote: > Master the Ruler of the Seas writes: >> - In that strange conversation, the old ambassador comes out with >> "Cassiopeia weeps for her children". He seems to have jumped to the >> conclusion that Cassie was a clone of "Fiona", and I suppose he wants to >> disarm her and see what hre reaction is. But what an odd thing to say. I >> suppose it's a play on the Jewish "Rachel weeps for her children". As far >> as I know, Cassiopeia's only child was Andromeda, chained to a rock as an >> offering to the sea monster sent against Cassiopeia's country > And where was that country? > > > > . > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *20 Oct 2008, 10:57 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* Oopsies! I thought it was Phoenicia, but it was actually Ethiopia or one of them. I see that the other Cassiopeia is associated with Phoenix. Here is a very good summary of the myth: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Cassiopeia-(mythology). It is interesting, and helpful, to have a star map handy when reading mythology generally and this myth in particular. . > Master the Ruler of the Seas writes: >> - In that strange conversation, the old ambassador comes out with >> "Cassiopeia weeps for her children". He seems to have jumped to the >> conclusion that Cassie was a clone of "Fiona", and I suppose he wants to >> disarm her and see what hre reaction is. But what an odd thing to say. I >> suppose it's a play on the Jewish "Rachel weeps for her children". As >> far >> as I know, Cassiopeia's only child was Andromeda, chained to a rock as >> an >> offering to the sea monster sent against Cassiopeia's country > And where was that country? > > > > . > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Mr Thalassocrat *20 Oct 2008, 11:09 · in reply to John Watkins* > On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:20 PM, John Watkins wrote: > Oh, well-caught. > > It was Israel, wasn't it? Phoenician Aethiopia included the Levant. > > On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 6:44 AM, wrote: >> Master the Ruler of the Seas writes: >>> - In that strange conversation, the old ambassador comes out with >>> "Cassiopeia weeps for her children". He seems to have jumped to the >>> conclusion that Cassie was a clone of "Fiona", and I suppose he wants to >>> disarm her and see what hre reaction is. But what an odd thing to say. I >>> suppose it's a play on the Jewish "Rachel weeps for her children". As >>> far >>> as I know, Cassiopeia's only child was Andromeda, chained to a rock as >>> an >>> offering to the sea monster sent against Cassiopeia's country >> And where was that country? I think it was supposed to be vaguely Phoenicia. I vaguely recall from somewhere that the Perseus/Andromeda myth is supposed to have its roots in some old Near Eastern myth with a hero battling a sea monster. Don't think there's any particular connection to Israel. --- ### brunians at brunians.org *20 Oct 2008, 11:09 · in reply to John Watkins* John Watkins writes: > Oh, well-caught. > It was Israel, wasn't it? Phoenician Aethiopia included the Levant. Yes, that is true. And the other one could be Yemen, Nubia or Abbysinia. All of these countries had really a lot to do with each other: straight shot down the Red Sea from Kana'an to the Horn of Africa. Also, the Bni Israel in the (pre-Babylonian captivity with post-attendant Yahwist/crypto-Zoroastrian redaction of history and scripture) old days were pretty much indistinguishable from Phoenicians, religiously and culturally. . --- ### brunians at brunians.org *20 Oct 2008, 11:11 · in reply to Mr Thalassocrat* Mr Thalassocrat writes: > I think it was supposed to be vaguely Phoenicia. I vaguely recall from > somewhere that the Perseus/Andromeda myth is supposed to have its roots in > some old Near Eastern myth with a hero battling a sea monster. Don't think > there's any particular connection to Israel. You have to watch that Ezra guy. . --- ### John Watkins *20 Oct 2008, 11:16 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* Phoenicia, Aethiopia--either way it's where Baal was worshipped, right? They had human sacrifices, at least according to the Bible. Chesterton has a whole bit on it in The Everlasting Man, about how the Phoenician civilization was just about the only thing the Romans and the Jews hated equally. > On 10/20/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > Oopsies! I thought it was Phoenicia, but it was actually Ethiopia or one > of them. I see that the other Cassiopeia is associated with Phoenix. > > Here is a very good summary of the myth: > http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Cassiopeia-(mythology). > > It is interesting, and helpful, to have a star map handy when reading > mythology generally and this myth in particular. > > > > . >> Master the Ruler of the Seas writes: >>> - In that strange conversation, the old ambassador comes out with >>> "Cassiopeia weeps for her children". He seems to have jumped to the >>> conclusion that Cassie was a clone of "Fiona", and I suppose he wants to >>> disarm her and see what hre reaction is. But what an odd thing to say. I >>> suppose it's a play on the Jewish "Rachel weeps for her children". As >>> far >>> as I know, Cassiopeia's only child was Andromeda, chained to a rock as >>> an >>> offering to the sea monster sent against Cassiopeia's country >> And where was that country? >> >> >> >> . >> >> >> _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *20 Oct 2008, 11:43 · in reply to John Watkins* > Phoenicia, Aethiopia--either way it's where Baal was worshipped, > right? They had human sacrifices, at least according to the Bible. So did the Bni Israel, at least according to the Bible. 'Baal' means 'Lord'. That's it. Contrast various names in Kings and Chronicles. -baal becomes -bosheth ('bosheth' means 'shame'). Remember that the order of books does not correspond to historical order: Chronicles is the earlier work. > Chesterton has a whole bit on it in The Everlasting Man, about how the > Phoenician civilization was just about the only thing the Romans and > the Jews hated equally. Chesterton is right a lot of the time, and clever and amusing even when he is wrong. Not having read 'TEM' I have no idea which he is being here. . --- ### John Watkins *20 Oct 2008, 12:13 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* Of course--I'm not using Chesterton as gold-star history here. The question is whether we can infer that Wolfe had the sacrifices to Phoenician false gods in mind when he threw that "Cassiopeia weeps for her children" bit in. It's certainly an interesting thought. The Squid God is already Cthulhu layered with Cetus and sort of the pulp notion of a human sacrifice to quiet an angry volcano or storm. Are we meant to also take him as the deity honored by human sacrifice around the southern and eastern side of the Mediterranean? I don't know if this points toward any other interpretive clues, although it is interesting that what we typically consider a Greek myth is set in what is now Israel. That's rich turf--I doubt Wolfe would leave it fallow. Or maybe it's just Wolfe's guess at the origin of the Cetus myth. Ultimately the myth is about a queen trying to sacrifice her daughter to a monster, and the heroic foreigner who stops the sacrifice. Maybe Wolfe takes the myth as in part chiding by the Greeks of the child-sacrificing practice of their neighbors? >> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 7:43 AM, wrote: >> Phoenicia, Aethiopia--either way it's where Baal was worshipped, >> right? They had human sacrifices, at least according to the Bible. > So did the Bni Israel, at least according to the Bible. > > 'Baal' means 'Lord'. That's it. Contrast various names in Kings and > Chronicles. -baal becomes -bosheth ('bosheth' means 'shame'). Remember > that the order of books does not correspond to historical order: > Chronicles is the earlier work. >> Chesterton has a whole bit on it in The Everlasting Man, about how the >> Phoenician civilization was just about the only thing the Romans and >> the Jews hated equally. > Chesterton is right a lot of the time, and clever and amusing even when he > is wrong. Not having read 'TEM' I have no idea which he is being here. > > > . > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *20 Oct 2008, 12:56 · in reply to John Watkins* > Of course--I'm not using Chesterton as gold-star history here. The > question is whether we can infer that Wolfe had the sacrifices to > Phoenician false gods in mind when he threw that "Cassiopeia weeps for > her children" bit in. It's certainly an interesting thought. The > Squid God is already Cthulhu layered with Cetus and sort of the pulp > notion of a human sacrifice to quiet an angry volcano or storm. I read a *way* interesting book about this, which does happen, in this instance among the Mapuche of Chile. What actually is done (or was done in this case) is that there is a disaster, volcano, storm, tsunami or whatever and after the fact the sacrifice is done. The book is called 'The Highest Altar': I have a copy around here somewhere. The Mapuche are *very* traditional and their religious practice completely non-Christian (altough there are Catholic and Protestant Mapuche (the Incas never conquered the Mapuche, the Spanish never conquered the Mapuche, the Chileans worked out an agreement with them)). Further north, in the region around Lake Titicaca, the author investigates similar practices which have become more or less syncretic and (here it becomes very interesting) which the practitioners very consciously correlate with European derived occult practices and Satanism. > Are > we meant to also take him as the deity honored by human sacrifice > around the southern and eastern side of the Mediterranean? That's his nephew Dagon. > I don't > know if this points toward any other interpretive clues, although it > is interesting that what we typically consider a Greek myth is set in > what is now Israel. Who was Cadmus? Where did he come from? And Danae? Where did people *think* that Perseus was from? > That's rich turf--I doubt Wolfe would leave it > fallow. Wolfe is one of, like, three people I've met who really understands this stuff. > Or maybe it's just Wolfe's guess at the origin of the Cetus myth. > Ultimately the myth is about a queen trying to sacrifice her daughter > to a monster, and the heroic foreigner who stops the sacrifice. On one level. I don't think I would say 'ultimately'. > Maybe > Wolfe takes the myth as in part chiding by the Greeks of the > child-sacrificing practice of their neighbors? I doubt it, but maybe. Maybe I was unclear about the Ba'al bit: all of these Kana'anim, Bni Israel, Phoenicians, the lot of them, had lots of gods and one in particular who was in charge of where you lived, addressed as Creator and Master (or Creatress and Mistress) of the World, worshipped aniconically, etc. Who it was varied on what city you were in. The Bni Israel, in the time of David and Solomon, addressed YHWH as ba'al. Later on, the language changed, the title confused with a proper name and applied only to the other gods of other western Semitic cities. . --- ### John Watkins *20 Oct 2008, 15:36 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* Excellent reply. Thanks. I did in fact get the bit about Ba'al--in fact, I'd known that and forgotten it from long ago. Once you know that "Beelzebub" means "Lord of the Flies" or "Prince of Flies" it's actually quite intuitive that "Ba'al" is just "lord" or "prince"--a title, rather than a name. I'm also fairly surprised that I missed that Wolfe, by connecting Cthulhu to Phoenician deities, was only following Lovecraft--it's not as though I haven't read The Shadow over Innsmouth, and, heck, even Buffy the Vampire Slayer made the connection. Perseus was Greek in all the senses that count, right? His mother was almost the mother of Greece, as the Greeks are the Danaans. I suppose people thought he was from Serifos. I'll look into The Highest Altar, it sounds fascinating. And thank you for the word "aniconic." >> On 10/20/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> Of course--I'm not using Chesterton as gold-star history here. The >> question is whether we can infer that Wolfe had the sacrifices to >> Phoenician false gods in mind when he threw that "Cassiopeia weeps for >> her children" bit in. It's certainly an interesting thought. The >> Squid God is already Cthulhu layered with Cetus and sort of the pulp >> notion of a human sacrifice to quiet an angry volcano or storm. > I read a *way* interesting book about this, which does happen, in this > instance among the Mapuche of Chile. What actually is done (or was done in > this case) is that there is a disaster, volcano, storm, tsunami or > whatever and after the fact the sacrifice is done. The book is called 'The > Highest Altar': I have a copy around here somewhere. > > The Mapuche are *very* traditional and their religious practice completely > non-Christian (altough there are Catholic and Protestant Mapuche (the > Incas never conquered the Mapuche, the Spanish never conquered the > Mapuche, the Chileans worked out an agreement with them)). Further north, > in the region around Lake Titicaca, the author investigates similar > practices which have become more or less syncretic and (here it becomes > very interesting) which the practitioners very consciously correlate with > European derived occult practices and Satanism. >> Are >> we meant to also take him as the deity honored by human sacrifice >> around the southern and eastern side of the Mediterranean? > That's his nephew Dagon. >> I don't >> know if this points toward any other interpretive clues, although it >> is interesting that what we typically consider a Greek myth is set in >> what is now Israel. > Who was Cadmus? Where did he come from? And Danae? > > Where did people *think* that Perseus was from? >> That's rich turf--I doubt Wolfe would leave it >> fallow. > Wolfe is one of, like, three people I've met who really understands this > stuff. >> Or maybe it's just Wolfe's guess at the origin of the Cetus myth. >> Ultimately the myth is about a queen trying to sacrifice her daughter >> to a monster, and the heroic foreigner who stops the sacrifice. > On one level. I don't think I would say 'ultimately'. >> Maybe >> Wolfe takes the myth as in part chiding by the Greeks of the >> child-sacrificing practice of their neighbors? > I doubt it, but maybe. > > Maybe I was unclear about the Ba'al bit: all of these Kana'anim, Bni > Israel, Phoenicians, the lot of them, had lots of gods and one in > particular who was in charge of where you lived, addressed as Creator and > Master (or Creatress and Mistress) of the World, worshipped aniconically, > etc. Who it was varied on what city you were in. The Bni Israel, in the > time of David and Solomon, addressed YHWH as ba'al. Later on, the language > changed, the title confused with a proper name and applied only to the > other gods of other western Semitic cities. > > > > . > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *20 Oct 2008, 17:03 · in reply to John Watkins* Cadmus was from Phoenicia. As are Greek letters, the polis and a lot of other things that people think of as typically Greek. Yes, Perseus was the ueber-Greek. Wasn't Danae Cadmus daughter? No, I was mixed up. Argos, not Thebes. They are related somewhere in there, though. Anyway, there was a lot of Phoenician influence on Greece just coming out of the post-Mycenaean dark ages. You are very welcome, for the word and for everything else, such as it is! It's not often that I get to go on about this stuff, which I do enjoy immensely. . > Excellent reply. Thanks. I did in fact get the bit about Ba'al--in > fact, I'd known that and forgotten it from long ago. Once you know > that "Beelzebub" means "Lord of the Flies" or "Prince of Flies" it's > actually quite intuitive that "Ba'al" is just "lord" or "prince"--a > title, rather than a name. > > I'm also fairly surprised that I missed that Wolfe, by connecting > Cthulhu to Phoenician deities, was only following Lovecraft--it's not > as though I haven't read The Shadow over Innsmouth, and, heck, even > Buffy the Vampire Slayer made the connection. > > Perseus was Greek in all the senses that count, right? His mother was > almost the mother of Greece, as the Greeks are the Danaans. I suppose > people thought he was from Serifos. > > I'll look into The Highest Altar, it sounds fascinating. And thank > you for the word "aniconic." > > On 10/20/08, brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>> Of course--I'm not using Chesterton as gold-star history here. The >>> question is whether we can infer that Wolfe had the sacrifices to >>> Phoenician false gods in mind when he threw that "Cassiopeia weeps for >>> her children" bit in. It's certainly an interesting thought. The >>> Squid God is already Cthulhu layered with Cetus and sort of the pulp >>> notion of a human sacrifice to quiet an angry volcano or storm. >> I read a *way* interesting book about this, which does happen, in this >> instance among the Mapuche of Chile. What actually is done (or was done >> in >> this case) is that there is a disaster, volcano, storm, tsunami or >> whatever and after the fact the sacrifice is done. The book is called >> 'The >> Highest Altar': I have a copy around here somewhere. >> >> The Mapuche are *very* traditional and their religious practice >> completely >> non-Christian (altough there are Catholic and Protestant Mapuche (the >> Incas never conquered the Mapuche, the Spanish never conquered the >> Mapuche, the Chileans worked out an agreement with them)). Further >> north, >> in the region around Lake Titicaca, the author investigates similar >> practices which have become more or less syncretic and (here it becomes >> very interesting) which the practitioners very consciously correlate >> with >> European derived occult practices and Satanism. >>> Are >>> we meant to also take him as the deity honored by human sacrifice >>> around the southern and eastern side of the Mediterranean? >> That's his nephew Dagon. >>> I don't >>> know if this points toward any other interpretive clues, although it >>> is interesting that what we typically consider a Greek myth is set in >>> what is now Israel. >> Who was Cadmus? Where did he come from? And Danae? >> >> Where did people *think* that Perseus was from? >>> That's rich turf--I doubt Wolfe would leave it >>> fallow. >> Wolfe is one of, like, three people I've met who really understands this >> stuff. >>> Or maybe it's just Wolfe's guess at the origin of the Cetus myth. >>> Ultimately the myth is about a queen trying to sacrifice her daughter >>> to a monster, and the heroic foreigner who stops the sacrifice. >> On one level. I don't think I would say 'ultimately'. >>> Maybe >>> Wolfe takes the myth as in part chiding by the Greeks of the >>> child-sacrificing practice of their neighbors? >> I doubt it, but maybe. >> >> Maybe I was unclear about the Ba'al bit: all of these Kana'anim, Bni >> Israel, Phoenicians, the lot of them, had lots of gods and one in >> particular who was in charge of where you lived, addressed as Creator >> and >> Master (or Creatress and Mistress) of the World, worshipped >> aniconically, >> etc. Who it was varied on what city you were in. The Bni Israel, in the >> time of David and Solomon, addressed YHWH as ba'al. Later on, the >> language >> changed, the title confused with a proper name and applied only to the >> other gods of other western Semitic cities. >> >> >> >> . >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ --- ### James B. Jordan *28 Oct 2008, 17:39 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* >> At 06:43 AM 10/20/2008, you wrote: >> Phoenicia, Aethiopia--either way it's where Baal was worshipped, >> right? They had human sacrifices, at least according to the Bible. > So did the Bni Israel, at least according to the Bible. > > 'Baal' means 'Lord'. That's it. Contrast various names in Kings and > Chronicles. -baal becomes -bosheth ('bosheth' means 'shame'). Remember > that the order of books does not correspond to historical order: > Chronicles is the earlier work. Just for clarity: Kings is earlier and Chronicles later. But you have it right that the Chronicler uses the original form of the names. There are reasons for this connected with the purposes of the two books. Nutria Theologia >> Chesterton has a whole bit on it in The Everlasting Man, about how the >> Phoenician civilization was just about the only thing the Romans and >> the Jews hated equally. > Chesterton is right a lot of the time, and clever and amusing even when he > is wrong. Not having read 'TEM' I have no idea which he is being here. > > > . > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### James B. Jordan *28 Oct 2008, 18:45 · in reply to John Watkins* > At 06:16 AM 10/20/2008, you wrote: > Phoenicia, Aethiopia--either way it's where Baal was worshipped, > right? The Storm King would be Baal, of course, lord of the storm. But also Thor, Zeus, Jupiter. Probably all the same mythic structure. Baal is also Husband, and rapist. Seems apropos for the description of the visit to Squiddie's city. Cassiopeia rather than any daughter Andromeda chained to a rock. Reis rather than either woman being sacrificed. "King must die" motif. Also, though, Husband dying for his Bride, who is then rescued by angels. Reis as Christ figure, then: misunderstood; bent on saving the beautiful earth; dying to bring about the destruction of Satan, the being who captured earth "before the Flood." (California Satanists gladly join Squiddie's cult, it being the same thing.) William means "Protector." Reis is German for "twig, shoot" and also archaically "knight." The Stem of Jesse, the Messiah, in Isaiah 11:1, 10, etc. is "Reis." Reis is Christ. William = Wallace. Willliam Wallace, Christian hero of recent celebration. Rosenquist "rose twig" (Scandanavian). So, same as Reis. The Christmas hymn "Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming" and many others. Hmmm. In the Bible, the Church is both Daughter (Andromeda) and Bride (Cassiopeia). Both attacked by Satan, using as his agent the Sea Beast of Revelation 13, along with the bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms! In Matthew 24, the victory over Satan means "wheresoever the carcass is, there the vultures will gather." But is that how Wolfe uses the reference? Maybe Reis starts out with megalomaniacal intentions and the bad gold is his downfall, but he is surely redeemed at the end and wins his name. Yet, he is using the gold to poison the various evil dragons of the world, and ultimately to seek and destroy the Invader. The Evil Guest is probably multiple, but surely Squiddie/Satan is the evil guest to be expelled. Your turn. Nutria James B. Jordan Director, Biblical Horizons Box 1096 Niceville, FL 32588 http://www.biblicalhorizons.com --- ### John Watkins *28 Oct 2008, 18:57 · in reply to James B. Jordan* Do we have a unified devil theory in Wolfe's works yet? Someone out there must understand the relationships, both in symbol, and, where applicable, in plot, among the Squid God, the Most Low God, Abaia, Typhon, the Ayuntiamento, Seth, Angra Mainyu, and Mr. Million/Maitre/Number Five (I am sure to be missing a few). > On 10/28/08, James B. Jordan wrote: > At 06:16 AM 10/20/2008, you wrote: > Phoenicia, Aethiopia--either way it's where Baal was worshipped, > right? > The Storm King would be Baal, of course, lord of the storm. But also Thor, > Zeus, Jupiter. Probably all the same mythic structure. Baal is also Husband, > and rapist. Seems apropos for the description of the visit to Squiddie's > city. > > Cassiopeia rather than any daughter Andromeda chained to a rock. Reis rather > than either woman being sacrificed. "King must die" motif. Also, though, > Husband dying for his Bride, who is then rescued by angels. > > Reis as Christ figure, then: misunderstood; bent on saving the beautiful > earth; dying to bring about the destruction of Satan, the being who captured > earth "before the Flood." (California Satanists gladly join Squiddie's cult, > it being the same thing.) > > William means "Protector." Reis is German for "twig, shoot" and also > archaically "knight." The Stem of Jesse, the Messiah, in Isaiah 11:1, 10, > etc. is "Reis." Reis is Christ. > > William = Wallace. Willliam Wallace, Christian hero of recent celebration. > Rosenquist "rose twig" (Scandanavian). So, same as Reis. The Christmas hymn > "Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming" and many others. > > Hmmm. In the Bible, the Church is both Daughter (Andromeda) and Bride > (Cassiopeia). Both attacked by Satan, using as his agent the Sea Beast of > Revelation 13, along with the bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms! > > In Matthew 24, the victory over Satan means "wheresoever the carcass is, > there the vultures will gather." But is that how Wolfe uses the reference? > > Maybe Reis starts out with megalomaniacal intentions and the bad gold is his > downfall, but he is surely redeemed at the end and wins his name. Yet, he is > using the gold to poison the various evil dragons of the world, and > ultimately to seek and destroy the Invader. The Evil Guest is probably > multiple, but surely Squiddie/Satan is the evil guest to be expelled. > > Your turn. > > Nutria > > > James B. Jordan > Director, Biblical Horizons > Box 1096 > Niceville, FL 32588 > http://www.biblicalhorizons.com > _______________________________________________ --- ### James B. Jordan *28 Oct 2008, 21:02 · in reply to John Watkins* > At 01:57 PM 10/28/2008, you wrote: > Do we have a unified devil theory in Wolfe's works yet? > > Someone out there must understand the relationships, both in symbol, > and, where applicable, in plot, among the Squid God, the Most Low God, > Abaia, Typhon, the Ayuntiamento, Seth, Angra Mainyu, and Mr. > Million/Maitre/Number Five (I am sure to be missing a few). Well, No. 5, at least, is the Antichrist, as his address (666 Street of the Counterfeit) indicates. Or some future clone is. "Some day they'll want us." Cloning prevents the future. "We don't progress." It just reinforces all that is bad in the present. It's anti-eschatological. The Ayuntiamento are the Scribes and Pharisees, who have taken over, and don't want Silk to come and bring Outsider News. That much at least. It is safe to say that Wolfe's "devil theory" is going to be the various aspects and manifestations we see in the Bible, often presented in Lupine reworks of mythology. Hence: Fallen Archangel, Sea Beast, Antichrist, Man of Sin, Scribes & Pharisees, Pharaoh, etc. reworked into Persian or Lovecraftian or whatever terms and then looped by the Lupe. Nutria > On 10/28/08, James B. Jordan wrote: >> At 06:16 AM 10/20/2008, you wrote: >> Phoenicia, Aethiopia--either way it's where Baal was worshipped, >> right? >> The Storm King would be Baal, of course, lord of the storm. But also Thor, >> Zeus, Jupiter. Probably all the same mythic structure. Baal is >> also Husband, >> and rapist. Seems apropos for the description of the visit to Squiddie's >> city. >> >> Cassiopeia rather than any daughter Andromeda chained to a rock. > Reis rather > than either woman being sacrificed. "King must die" motif. Also, though, > Husband dying for his Bride, who is then rescued by angels. >> Reis as Christ figure, then: misunderstood; bent on saving the beautiful >> earth; dying to bring about the destruction of Satan, the being >> who captured >> earth "before the Flood." (California Satanists gladly join >> Squiddie's cult, >> it being the same thing.) >> >> William means "Protector." Reis is German for "twig, shoot" and also >> archaically "knight." The Stem of Jesse, the Messiah, in Isaiah 11:1, 10, >> etc. is "Reis." Reis is Christ. >> >> William = Wallace. Willliam Wallace, Christian hero of recent celebration. >> Rosenquist "rose twig" (Scandanavian). So, same as Reis. The Christmas hymn >> "Lo, How a Rose E'er Blooming" and many others. >> >> Hmmm. In the Bible, the Church is both Daughter (Andromeda) and Bride >> (Cassiopeia). Both attacked by Satan, using as his agent the Sea Beast of >> Revelation 13, along with the bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms! >> >> In Matthew 24, the victory over Satan means "wheresoever the carcass is, >> there the vultures will gather." But is that how Wolfe uses the reference? >> >> Maybe Reis starts out with megalomaniacal intentions and the bad >> gold is his >> downfall, but he is surely redeemed at the end and wins his name. > Yet, he is > using the gold to poison the various evil dragons of the world, and > ultimately to seek and destroy the Invader. The Evil Guest is probably > multiple, but surely Squiddie/Satan is the evil guest to be expelled. >> Your turn. >> >> Nutria >> >> >> James B. Jordan >> Director, Biblical Horizons >> Box 1096 >> Niceville, FL 32588 >> http://www.biblicalhorizons.com >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Nigel Price *28 Oct 2008, 23:53 · follows James B. Jordan* Patera Nutria observed: >> Reis as Christ figure, then: misunderstood; >> bent on saving the beautiful earth; dying to >> bring about the destruction of Satan, the >> being who captured earth "before the Flood." >> (California Satanists gladly join Squiddie's >> cult, it being the same thing.) Yes, indeed. Reis even speaks like Jesus at times! On page 275, we read: >> He gulped, and though Cassie could not hear >> the gulp, she saw his throat move before he >> said, "I was about to tell you I didn't know >> what you wanted from marriage. But I do. You >> told me. You want love. You'll get it - shaken >> down, pressed down, and overflowing. I would >> die for you, Cassie. I really would." Reis' comment that he would die for Cassie is obviously prophetic and Christ-like, but in this speech Reis is also actually quoting Jesus's words in Luke 6.38, which the NIV translates thus: >> "Give, and it will be give to you. A good >> measure, pressed down, shaken together >> and running over, will be poured into your >> lap. For with the measure you use, it will >> be measured to you." Nigel --- ### James B. Jordan *29 Oct 2008, 03:54 · in reply to Nigel Price* Theological allegory part II. Wolfe's novels are always polyphonic. I'll leave the noir and Lovecraft threads to others, and try and do my duty by pointing to the theological/Biblical ones. Or at least contributing to that aspect. I. From the book of Revelation: In Revelation 12, the woman is attacked by the Dragon. Cassie plays missionary daughter Mariah (Mary). Reis is out to poison dragons throughout the world with poison gold. With the Dragon's initial defeat, he goes after the new form of the woman, who is given wings of a great eagle and taken to a wilderness (12:14). I assume it is clear how this happens to Cassie at the end of the novel. Also, while a good interpretation of Revelation sees the Dragon cast out of heaven with the ascension of Jesus Christ, traditional misunderstanding (a la Milton) sees this as the Dragon cast down to earth at the time of the initial rebellion of Lucifer. Wolfe may be using this motif in connection with the "arrival" on earth "before the Flood" of Satan/Squiddie. The Sky Dragon, fallen to humanity, manifests himself through Sea Beast, Land Beast, and Beast Image (Rev. 13). All this seems to be in AEG. Read the chapter and see how Wolfe puts a SF/Fantasy spin on it all. Squiddie is located in the water now, but he has powers on the land (the ATF, etc.). People worship the Sea Beast/Squiddie. It enlists people to make war on the "saints" all over the earth. The Sea Beast's servant, the Land Beast, seeks to control the economy (gold) (13:17). The Dragon, as Sea Beast, also manifests as an evil city, Babylon, a city seeking to control the economy (ch. 17-18). This city is thrown into the sea in 18:21. Revelation 22:20 ends, "Come, Lord Jesus." This is exactly how AEG ends. Of course, Lovecraft uses Revelation's evils also, and is concerned with society as Wolfe is. How much of Wolfe's read if Revelation is here influence by HPL I'll leave to those with more Lovecraftian experties to say. II. Foot would and head wound. In Genesis 3, the deliverer will suffer a foot wound while crushing the head of the Ur-Serpent. So, it might seem that Gideon Chase is the deliverer and Reis the serpent. Yet, Christ is head of the Church, the Bride, and so the bashing in of Reis's head, in context, is a crucifixion. So, who is Gideon Chase who is also Gilbert Corby? First, he would seem to be the offspring of the sons of God (angels / Wolder men) and the daughters of men. Such men became nephilim, strong ones, men of renown (Gen. 6). [Note: though this is a common read of Genesis 6, it does not hold water in the text. Anyway...] The Wolder men try to seduce human women. ("Aliens want our women!!") Woldercan is a dangerous and possibly evil place. Fish talk and try to mess you up (agents of Squiddie?). The forests are evil, period. Women's periods, the "distress of women," sometimes called "the curse" by women, seems to be a multiplied factor on Woldercan. As an offspring of "angels/demons," it's no surprise that Chase has a black heavenly chariot. Voices inside the chariot tempt Cassie. She's not bright enough to perceive that, but Chase feared it, which is why he did not want her to drive it. Cassie is not real bright, but she's pretty innocent, and in her exalted semi-angelic status is even more so. Second, Gil-Bert means "bright pledge/hostage," with the Gil part as "hostage." Corby, in English/Scandavian means "Dweller in Cor's Land," but in French it's a diminutive of "crow." This is Wolfe. I vote for Crow. Gideon, of course, was a warrior messiah of the book of Judges. He fought the followers of Baal, beginning by tearing down an image of Baal. Judges 6ff. Chase means "Dweller of the Wood/Huntingground." So: Gideon of the Forest = A Hostage Crow I'm not getting a BFO or AHA moment here. Given the evil forests of Woldercan, Gideon of the Forest might indicate a mixture of good and evil in him. Gil Corby is more mysterious, if I've translated aright, and I'm not sure of that. Third, however, at the moment (and I've only read the book once), Gideon Chase seems like an Old Testament leader who initially is enlisted by the ruling powers to oppose Reis (think of "The Detective of Dreams") but eventually comes to support him, and eventually to turn over the Bride to him. At one point Cassie, speaking of his being pursued, calls him Gideon Chased, but is that not also Gideon Chaste? The footwound of Gideon (so common and so multivalent in Wolfe) could be that of Jacob, something that both humbles him and also enables him to enter a new and more saintly life. III. Transformations: It's been pointed out that Reis seems mainly a power seeker initially, but then becomes messianic and sacrificial. I think also that Chase has a mixed past, but becomes a new man. Reis dies for Cassie, but in a way Chase has already done so, by letting her go. Big guess, and I have no way to know, but I think that, inspired by Reis, Chase returns to Woldercan to begin some housecleaning. Cassie, who desired to "be somebody and do something" goes to help him. FWIW. Nutria James B. Jordan Director, Biblical Horizons Box 1096 Niceville, FL 32588 http://www.biblicalhorizons.com --- ### Adam Thornton *29 Oct 2008, 04:21 · in reply to James B. Jordan* > On Oct 28, 2008, at 10:54 PM, James B. Jordan wrote: > Theological allegory part II. > > First, he would seem to be the offspring of the sons of God > (angels / Wolder men) and the daughters of men. Such men became > nephilim, strong ones, men of renown (Gen. 6). [Note: though this is > a common read of Genesis 6, it does not hold water in the text. > Anyway...] Note that "The Dunwich Horror," one of the finest HPL tales (S.T. Joshi, usually quite good, totally misses the mark here; Ken Hite nails it in his "Tour de Lovecraft"), is something of a reprise of a well-known story about the offspring of (a) God and a human woman. Adam --- ### John Watkins *29 Oct 2008, 04:48 · in reply to James B. Jordan* "Gideon of the Forest" recalls "Vodalus of the Wood," doesn't it? Could be another clue that Gid is on the side of the Squid God. > On 10/28/08, James B. Jordan wrote: > Theological allegory part II. > > Wolfe's novels are always polyphonic. I'll leave the noir > and Lovecraft threads to others, and try and do my duty by pointing > to the theological/Biblical ones. Or at least contributing to that aspect. > > I. From the book of Revelation: > In Revelation 12, the woman is attacked by the Dragon. > Cassie plays missionary daughter Mariah (Mary). Reis is out to poison > dragons throughout the world with poison gold. > With the Dragon's initial defeat, he goes after the new form > of the woman, who is given wings of a great eagle and taken to a > wilderness (12:14). I assume it is clear how this happens to Cassie > at the end of the novel. Also, while a good interpretation of > Revelation sees the Dragon cast out of heaven with the ascension of > Jesus Christ, traditional misunderstanding (a la Milton) sees this as > the Dragon cast down to earth at the time of the initial rebellion of > Lucifer. Wolfe may be using this motif in connection with the > "arrival" on earth "before the Flood" of Satan/Squiddie. > The Sky Dragon, fallen to humanity, manifests himself > through Sea Beast, Land Beast, and Beast Image (Rev. 13). All this > seems to be in AEG. Read the chapter and see how Wolfe puts a > SF/Fantasy spin on it all. Squiddie is located in the water now, but > he has powers on the land (the ATF, etc.). People worship the Sea > Beast/Squiddie. It enlists people to make war on the "saints" all > over the earth. The Sea Beast's servant, the Land Beast, seeks to > control the economy (gold) (13:17). > The Dragon, as Sea Beast, also manifests as an evil city, > Babylon, a city seeking to control the economy (ch. 17-18). This city > is thrown into the sea in 18:21. > Revelation 22:20 ends, "Come, Lord Jesus." This is exactly > how AEG ends. > Of course, Lovecraft uses Revelation's evils also, and is > concerned with society as Wolfe is. How much of Wolfe's read if > Revelation is here influence by HPL I'll leave to those with more > Lovecraftian experties to say. > > II. Foot would and head wound. > In Genesis 3, the deliverer will suffer a foot wound while > crushing the head of the Ur-Serpent. So, it might seem that Gideon > Chase is the deliverer and Reis the serpent. Yet, Christ is head of > the Church, the Bride, and so the bashing in of Reis's head, in > context, is a crucifixion. > So, who is Gideon Chase who is also Gilbert Corby? > First, he would seem to be the offspring of the sons of God > (angels / Wolder men) and the daughters of men. Such men became > nephilim, strong ones, men of renown (Gen. 6). [Note: though this is > a common read of Genesis 6, it does not hold water in the text. > Anyway...] The Wolder men try to seduce human women. ("Aliens want > our women!!") Woldercan is a dangerous and possibly evil place. Fish > talk and try to mess you up (agents of Squiddie?). The forests are > evil, period. Women's periods, the "distress of women," sometimes > called "the curse" by women, seems to be a multiplied factor on Woldercan. > As an offspring of "angels/demons," it's no surprise that > Chase has a black heavenly chariot. Voices inside the chariot tempt > Cassie. She's not bright enough to perceive that, but Chase feared > it, which is why he did not want her to drive it. Cassie is not real > bright, but she's pretty innocent, and in her exalted semi-angelic > status is even more so. > > Second, Gil-Bert means "bright pledge/hostage," with the Gil > part as "hostage." > Corby, in English/Scandavian means "Dweller in Cor's Land," > but in French it's a diminutive of "crow." This is Wolfe. I vote for Crow. > Gideon, of course, was a warrior messiah of the book of > Judges. He fought the followers of Baal, beginning by tearing down an > image of Baal. Judges 6ff. > Chase means "Dweller of the Wood/Huntingground." > > So: Gideon of the Forest = A Hostage Crow > I'm not getting a BFO or AHA moment here. Given the evil > forests of Woldercan, Gideon of the Forest might indicate a mixture > of good and evil in him. Gil Corby is more mysterious, if I've > translated aright, and I'm not sure of that. > > Third, however, at the moment (and I've only read the book > once), Gideon Chase seems like an Old Testament leader who initially > is enlisted by the ruling powers to oppose Reis (think of "The > Detective of Dreams") but eventually comes to support him, and > eventually to turn over the Bride to him. At one point Cassie, > speaking of his being pursued, calls him Gideon Chased, but is that > not also Gideon Chaste? The footwound of Gideon (so common and so > multivalent in Wolfe) could be that of Jacob, something that both > humbles him and also enables him to enter a new and more saintly life. > > III. Transformations: > It's been pointed out that Reis seems mainly a power seeker > initially, but then becomes messianic and sacrificial. I think also > that Chase has a mixed past, but becomes a new man. Reis dies for > Cassie, but in a way Chase has already done so, by letting her go. > Big guess, and I have no way to know, but I think that, > inspired by Reis, Chase returns to Woldercan to begin some > housecleaning. Cassie, who desired to "be somebody and do something" > goes to help him. > > FWIW. > > Nutria > > > > James B. Jordan > Director, Biblical Horizons > Box 1096 > Niceville, FL 32588 > http://www.biblicalhorizons.com ``` Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com ``` --- ### Dave Tallman *30 Oct 2008, 12:22 · in reply to James B. Jordan* AEG is packed with Christian symbolism. There's a lot of the Book of Romans in here. Notice the two bracelets Cassie receives from Reis. The gold one is heavy, barbaric, and deadly because it is made from radioactive gold that cannot be purified enough (p. 96). It's like something a Volcano God would give (p. 74). To me this looks like the Old Covenant of the Law, given at the top of a burning mountain. The diamond one is pure and beautiful, clear and flawless. This represents the New Covenant of grace. Reis initially wanted to win over Chase, and he was willing to destroy Cassie to show his power in order to do this. "It was to be an exhibition of my power, something to frighten Chase -- to frighten him into my camp if possible." (p. 125). This looks like salvation "to the Jews first and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16). Gideon is an Old-Testament name. He acts as a Svengali to Cassie's Trilby, and Svengali was a Jew. He has written books of moral philosophy (p. 27) and insists that people not use the words "good" and "evil" loosely (pp. 14-15). He takes Cassie to a quaking mountain to awaken her to her potential. Once he takes Cassie to Reis he vanishes from the story -- now she represents both Jews and gen Margaret seems to represent living according to the Law. She keeps the letter of honesty but breaks the spirit of it with her trash-can trick (pp. 82-83). She is a werewolf and their nature is to "want the wild and a liberation from human morality." (p. 207). "When the commandment came, sin revived and I died" (Romans 7:9). Cassie's address changes may reflect her changing spiritual state. 1) The East vs. West address -- "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us." (Psalm 103:12). 2) Apartment 3A is half of a whole, representing Cassie's incompleteness without the love of God. She once let a magician saw her in half (p. 197). 3) Apartment 301 reflects "Add nothing to God and you get good." The three and one represent the Trinity, and the zero is adding nothing, so goodness comes by the grace of God. 4) Being on the fifth floor instead of the third suggests Cassie is being raised to a higher level. In the end, Cassie is on a long journey, looking for the return of Christ. She is helped in the wilderness by the fire of the Volcano God (Holy Spirit). --- ### Andy Robertson *30 Oct 2008, 18:43 · in reply to Dave Tallman* Dave Tallman writes: > AEG is packed with Christian symbolism. There's a lot of the Book of > Romans in here. > > Notice the two bracelets Cassie receives from Reis. The gold one is heavy, > barbaric, and deadly because it is made from radioactive gold that cannot > be purified enough (p. 96). Hmmm, any reference to Lafferty's "Golden Trabant?" hartshorn http://www.thenightland.co.uk 01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 --- ### Dave Tallman *31 Oct 2008, 16:03 · in reply to Andy Robertson* > *Andy Robertson wrote: > Hmmm, any reference to Lafferty's "Golden Trabant?" > I haven't read that and it looks like it will be hard to find around here. The only online summary I found was here: http://www.mulle-kybernetik.com/RAL/MT/shortstories.html: > Being the only one to know the location of an asteroid makes you > certainly interesting. If that asteroid consists of pure gold you're > sure to make many new friends. Until you lead them there. Offhand, that doesn't sound like a close connection. Could you elaborate on the connections you see? * --- ### Andy Robertson *01 Nov 2008, 17:26 · in reply to Dave Tallman* Dave Tallman writes: > *Andy Robertson wrote: >> Hmmm, any reference to Lafferty's "Golden Trabant?" > I haven't read that and it looks like it will be hard to find around here. > The only online summary I found was here: > http://www.mulle-kybernetik.com/RAL/MT/shortstories.html: >> Being the only one to know the location of an asteroid makes you >> certainly interesting. If that asteroid consists of pure gold you're sure >> to make many new friends. Until you lead them there. > Offhand, that doesn't sound like a close connection. Could you elaborate > on the connections you see? Trabant was exploited until the riches from it unsettled the evil cabals who control the world, at which point it was poisoned by radiation. One man kept on going back - quoting from memory, " . . . but when Flyn passed the gold to him, he did it with a hand that was all splintered bone, with only a little blackened flesh around the heel. "Harry Brobst raised his eyebrows, but he didn't raise them too far. An old gold dealer meets all sorts." hartshorn http://www.thenightland.co.uk 01273-488272 / 0777-214-9545 --- ### Gwern Branwen *04 Jan 2010, 05:50 · in reply to Mr Thalassocrat* On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 4:42 AM, Mr Thalassocrat wrote: ... > Another question: who shot Gid, and why? Presumably not Bill, presumably not > the FBI. It looks like the work of Squiddie, or the ATF -?and I think they > are certainly an arm of Squiddie. Why would Squiddie or the ATF be out for > Gid at that point? Maybe this: Squiddie wants to use Cassie to ensnare Bill, > as she does, in effect, in the end (because Bill would surely not have stuck > around to be killed if Cassie hadn't been held captive). When Bill shows up > at teh cast party, Cassie immediately tries to get Margaret to contact Gid. > Margaret tells Squiddie that Reis has fallen for Cassie, but that Cassie is > trying to get help from Gid to avoid his clutches. So Gid has to go. I favor the Squiddies. We are told that they are arrogant, they are loners and outcasts, they don't care about other humans (like bellhops or security guards). A lone pistoleer striding down a broad hallway in a tony building in plain sight, firing poorly, and then recklessly pursuing Gideon into the room all fit the Squiddie profile to a T; but we're told to disregard it being the FBI, and the ATF would've similarly used overwhelming paramilitary firepower. ``` gwern ``` ---