{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5189", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5189, "subject": "At risk of getting in over my head . . .", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2008-10-21T13:51:45+00:00", "last": "2008-10-23T05:23:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA2249201C47E34@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2008-10-21T13:51:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) At risk of getting in over my head . . .", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I re-read BLS and BNS last summer and found it deeply satisfying,\nespecially after trolling this mailing list from its very beginning for\nclues. One thing still bothers me, which I hesitate to raise, because\nit's related to the whole idea that Blue and Green are Urth and Lune or\nsome variety thereof, and I simply don't want to get into that (I don't\nbuy it, but it's way too complex and has already been discussed a lot).\nNamely: how did Patera Quetzal get into the Whorl? My first thought was\nthat Quetzal/the inhumi were present on Urth without Severian knowing;\nbut, in an interview with Wolfe where he fielded questions from readers,\nWolfe said that none of the major characters in BNS were inhumi, and\nthat Quetzal was a \"late arrival\" on the Whorl - which I take to mean\n(perhaps incorrectly) that he somehow got on board after it was\nlaunched. But how? Are there any clues in the books that anyone knows\nof? There's talk in the book about the inhumi barely being able to\nsurvive the crossing from Blue to Green . . . and Quetzal's been on the\nLander for a long time. And, if I remember correctly, he's not the only\ninhumu on the whorl. Anyone care to clarify things for me? \n\n-------------------------\nInvite the next generation of students to consider Briercrest College and Seminary. Visit www.briercrest.ca/refer. \n-------------------------\nThis e-mail may contain confidential and privileged proprietary material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive the information from the recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-21T15:46:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) At risk of getting in over my head . . .", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA2249201C47E34@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Eric Ortlund wrote:\nNamely: how did\nPatera Quetzal get into the Whorl?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, the Neighbors intentionally infected the Whorl, the idea being\nthat the behavior of the inhumi would provide insight into the human\ncondition." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-22T00:16:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) At risk of getting in over my head . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:16 AM, Matthew King wrote:\nOn Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Eric Ortlund \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Namely: how did\nPatera Quetzal get into the Whorl?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "IIRC, the Neighbors intentionally infected the Whorl, the idea being\nthat the behavior of the inhumi would provide insight into the human\ncondition." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As SilkHorn explains to Vadsig in RTTW, while they are sailing from Dorp to\nNew Viron.\n\nThere's a lot to think about in this. Just reviewing the conclusions I came\nto and seeing how they look now on reflection ....\n\nInhumi can only breed on Green. Just drinking a human's blood doesn't turn a\nprimal inhumu into a self-aware being: only its children. The Neighbors must\nhave taken primal inhumi from Green to the Whorl, gotten them to drink human\nblood, taken them back to Green to breed and then selected some of the\noffspring to re-introduce to the Whorl.\n\nThe Neighbors also took inhumi with them to their new world (also according\nto SilkHorn), and it must be the same kind of process, except on-going (as\nthe infestation of the Whorl may not have been). Neighbors monitor\nthemselves periodically by letting inhumi take some of their blood,\ntransporting them back to Green to breed, and examining the nature of the\noffspring.\n\nEverything suggests that the transportation of the inhumi must be\n*physical*, not astral travelling. An astrally-transported inhumu is no\nlonger an inhumu. The Neighbors need space ships to do it. I believe that\nthe low, domed building SilkHorn sees on top of the great mountain on Green\nis such a spaceship, and that the Neighbor he meets there is a\nNeighbor-naut, the source of his information about the inhumu infestation of\nthe Whorl etc. The Neighbors select inhumi for transportation to the Whorl\nand their new world by choosing from those who manage to fly to the top of\nthe mountain - the strongest-willed, the ones who care about having sentient\nchildren and so on.\n\nJahlee was once one of these. She never flew from Green to Blue; no inhumu\ndoes - that's a lie they tell themselves. Any inhumu on Blue came there from\nGreen on Auk's captured lander, or on a lander from the Whorl (as with Fava,\nI think), or was transported there by the Neighbors. I don't know which of\nthese methods Jahlee used." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA2249201C78C72@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "from": { "name": "Eric Ortlund", "address": "eortlund at briercrest.ca" }, "date": "2008-10-22T16:20:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) At risk of getting in over my head . . .", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:16 AM, Matthew King \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tOn Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Eric Ortlund\n wrote:\nNamely: how did\nPatera Quetzal get into the Whorl?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\t\n\t\n\tIIRC, the Neighbors intentionally infected the Whorl, the idea\nbeing\n\tthat the behavior of the inhumi would provide insight into the\nhuman\n\tcondition.\n\t\n\nAs SilkHorn explains to Vadsig in RTTW, while they are sailing from Dorp\nto New Viron. \n \nThere's a lot to think about in this. Just reviewing the conclusions I\ncame to and seeing how they look now on reflection ....\n \nInhumi can only breed on Green. Just drinking a human's blood doesn't\nturn a primal inhumu into a self-aware being: only its children. The\nNeighbors must have taken primal inhumi from Green to the Whorl, gotten\nthem to drink human blood, taken them back to Green to breed and then\nselected some of the offspring to re-introduce to the Whorl. \n \nThe Neighbors also took inhumi with them to their new world (also\naccording to SilkHorn), and it must be the same kind of process, except\non-going (as the infestation of the Whorl may not have been). Neighbors\nmonitor themselves periodically by letting inhumi take some of their\nblood, transporting them back to Green to breed, and examining the\nnature of the offspring. \n \nEverything suggests that the transportation of the inhumi must be\n*physical*, not astral travelling. An astrally-transported inhumu is no\nlonger an inhumu. The Neighbors need space ships to do it. I believe\nthat the low, domed building SilkHorn sees on top of the great mountain\non Green is such a spaceship, and that the Neighbor he meets there is a\nNeighbor-naut, the source of his information about the inhumu\ninfestation of the Whorl etc. The Neighbors select inhumi for\ntransportation to the Whorl and their new world by choosing from those\nwho manage to fly to the top of the mountain - the strongest-willed, the\nones who care about having sentient children and so on.\n \nJahlee was once one of these. She never flew from Green to Blue; no\ninhumu does - that's a lie they tell themselves. Any inhumu on Blue came\nthere from Green on Auk's captured lander, or on a lander from the Whorl\n(as with Fava, I think), or was transported there by the Neighbors. I\ndon't know which of these methods Jahlee used. \n\n\tMr. Thallassocrat: Thanks for the very thoughtful response.\nThere is indeed something very deep going on here. I'm reminded of when\nSilkHorn's son asks him why he doesn't just flat out tell him what's\ngoing on - and SilkHorn replies that he trying to get his son to think\nfor himself, to draw important conlcusions from scant evidence - and\nisn't that what Wolfe is pushing us to do as readers, not just with his\ntexts but our own lives?\n\n\tAnyway, I'm thankful for your thoughts, especially the\nNeighbor-Naut, which, while not knowing if it is correct, would\ncertainly explain things. But about inhumi flying from Green to Blue -\nI wonder if that's a lie, because as I remember, inhumi come in waves to\nGreen every three years or so when the two planets are close together.\nSo I *think* that checks out. But obviously the whole issue is a huge\none.\n\n\tI'm delightfully stunned by the massive invention of the BSS\nseries - the massive machinations which Horn gets caught up in.\n\n-------------------------\nInvite the next generation of students to consider Briercrest College and Seminary. Visit www.briercrest.ca/refer. \n-------------------------\nThis e-mail may contain confidential and privileged proprietary material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, or distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive the information from the recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2008-10-23T05:23:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) At risk of getting in over my head . . .", "in_reply_to": "<4E82554550FE5149AD4B30A4FEA2249201C78C72@xchange.briercrest.ca>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 2:50 AM, Eric Ortlund wrote:\nwrote:\n But about inhumi flying from Green to Blue -\nI wonder if that's a lie, because as I remember, inhumi come in waves to\nGreen every three years or so when the two planets are close together.\nSo I *think* that checks out. But obviously the whole issue is a huge\none.\n-------------------\n\nRealistically, landers could only travel between Green and Blue at around\nconjunction, also. They seem to be rocket powered craft subject to the\nstandard orbital mechanics & not capable of pulling more than a few gee, for\nlimited periods.\n\nSo I think a journey between Green and Blue would require a Hohmann transfer\nor whatever, at some point around conjunction. And I think Wolfe intended\nthat to be the case.\n\nBut obviously it's possible to read things differently - I just find this\nexplanation satisfying and consistent. One reason: it means that the inhumi\nproblem on Blue is pretty much under control by the end of RTTW. Their ranks\nhave been decimated, and there won't be any more coming from Green." } ] } ] }