Subject: (urth) At risk of getting in over my head . . .

From: Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 13:51:45 +0000

I re-read BLS and BNS last summer and found it deeply satisfying,
especially after trolling this mailing list from its very beginning for
clues.  One thing still bothers me, which I hesitate to raise, because
it's related to the whole idea that Blue and Green are Urth and Lune or
some variety thereof, and I simply don't want to get into that (I don't
buy it, but it's way too complex and has already been discussed a lot).
Namely: how did Patera Quetzal get into the Whorl?  My first thought was
that Quetzal/the inhumi were present on Urth without Severian knowing;
but, in an interview with Wolfe where he fielded questions from readers,
Wolfe said that none of the major characters in BNS were inhumi, and
that Quetzal was a "late arrival" on the Whorl - which I take to mean
(perhaps incorrectly) that he somehow got on board after it was
launched.  But how?  Are there any clues in the books that anyone knows
of?  There's talk in the book about the inhumi barely being able to
survive the crossing from Blue to Green . . . and Quetzal's been on the
Lander for a long time.  And, if I remember correctly, he's not the only
inhumu on the whorl.  Anyone care to clarify things for me? 

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From: Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:46:28 +0000

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca> wrote:
> Namely: how did
> Patera Quetzal get into the Whorl?

IIRC, the Neighbors intentionally infected the Whorl, the idea being
that the behavior of the inhumi would provide insight into the human
condition.

---

From: Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 00:16:35 +0000

> that the behavior of the inhumi would provide insight into the human
As SilkHorn explains to Vadsig in RTTW, while they are sailing from Dorp to
New Viron.

There's a lot to think about in this. Just reviewing the conclusions I came
to and seeing how they look now on reflection ....

Inhumi can only breed on Green. Just drinking a human's blood doesn't turn a
primal inhumu into a self-aware being: only its children. The Neighbors must
have taken primal inhumi from Green to the Whorl, gotten them to drink human
blood, taken them back to Green to breed and then selected some of the
offspring to re-introduce to the Whorl.

The Neighbors also took inhumi with them to their new world (also according
to SilkHorn), and it must be the same kind of process, except on-going (as
the infestation of the Whorl may not have been). Neighbors monitor
themselves periodically by letting inhumi take some of their blood,
transporting them back to Green to breed, and examining the nature of the
offspring.

Everything suggests that the transportation of the inhumi must be
*physical*, not astral travelling. An astrally-transported inhumu is no
longer an inhumu. The Neighbors need space ships to do it. I believe that
the low, domed building SilkHorn sees on top of the great mountain on Green
is such a spaceship, and that the Neighbor he meets there is a
Neighbor-naut, the source of his information about the inhumu infestation of
the Whorl etc. The Neighbors select inhumi for transportation to the Whorl
and their new world by choosing from those who manage to fly to the top of
the mountain - the strongest-willed, the ones who care about having sentient
children and so on.

Jahlee was once one of these. She never flew from Green to Blue; no inhumu
does - that's a lie they tell themselves. Any inhumu on Blue came there from
Green on Auk's captured lander, or on a lander from the Whorl (as with Fava,
I think), or was transported there by the Neighbors. I don't know which of
these methods Jahlee used.
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From: Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca>
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:20:13 +0000

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:16 AM, Matthew King <automatthew at gmail.com>
wrote:

	On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 8:51 AM, Eric Ortlund
	> Patera Quetzal get into the Whorl?

	IIRC, the Neighbors intentionally infected the Whorl, the idea
being
	that the behavior of the inhumi would provide insight into the
human
	condition.

As SilkHorn explains to Vadsig in RTTW, while they are sailing from Dorp
to New Viron. 
 
There's a lot to think about in this. Just reviewing the conclusions I
came to and seeing how they look now on reflection ....
 
Inhumi can only breed on Green. Just drinking a human's blood doesn't
turn a primal inhumu into a self-aware being: only its children. The
Neighbors must have taken primal inhumi from Green to the Whorl, gotten
them to drink human blood, taken them back to Green to breed and then
selected some of the offspring to re-introduce to the Whorl. 
 
The Neighbors also took inhumi with them to their new world (also
according to SilkHorn), and it must be the same kind of process, except
on-going (as the infestation of the Whorl may not have been). Neighbors
monitor themselves periodically by letting inhumi take some of their
blood, transporting them back to Green to breed, and examining the
nature of the offspring. 
 
Everything suggests that the transportation of the inhumi must be
*physical*, not astral travelling. An astrally-transported inhumu is no
longer an inhumu. The Neighbors need space ships to do it. I believe
that the low, domed building SilkHorn sees on top of the great mountain
on Green is such a spaceship, and that the Neighbor he meets there is a
Neighbor-naut, the source of his information about the inhumu
infestation of the Whorl etc. The Neighbors select inhumi for
transportation to the Whorl and their new world by choosing from those
who manage to fly to the top of the mountain - the strongest-willed, the
ones who care about having sentient children and so on.
 
Jahlee was once one of these. She never flew from Green to Blue; no
inhumu does - that's a lie they tell themselves. Any inhumu on Blue came
there from Green on Auk's captured lander, or on a lander from the Whorl
(as with Fava, I think), or was transported there by the Neighbors. I
don't know which of these methods Jahlee used. 

	Mr. Thallassocrat: Thanks for the very thoughtful response.
There is indeed something very deep going on here. I'm reminded of when
SilkHorn's son asks him why he doesn't just flat out tell him what's
going on - and SilkHorn replies that he trying to get his son to think
for himself, to draw important conlcusions from scant evidence - and
isn't that what Wolfe is pushing us to do as readers, not just with his
texts but our own lives?

	Anyway, I'm thankful for your thoughts, especially the
Neighbor-Naut, which, while not knowing if it is correct, would
certainly explain things.  But about inhumi flying from Green to Blue -
I wonder if that's a lie, because as I remember, inhumi come in waves to
Green every three years or so when the two planets are close together.
So I *think* that checks out.  But obviously the whole issue is a huge
one.

	I'm delightfully stunned by the massive invention of the BSS
series - the massive machinations which Horn gets caught up in.

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From: Mr Thalassocrat <thalassocrat08 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 05:23:59 +0000

On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 2:50 AM, Eric Ortlund <eortlund at briercrest.ca>wrote:
wrote:
 But about inhumi flying from Green to Blue -
I wonder if that's a lie, because as I remember, inhumi come in waves to
Green every three years or so when the two planets are close together.
So I *think* that checks out.  But obviously the whole issue is a huge
one.
-------------------

Realistically, landers could only travel between Green and Blue at around
conjunction, also. They seem to be rocket powered craft subject to the
standard orbital mechanics & not capable of pulling more than a few gee, for
limited periods.

So I think a journey between Green and Blue would require a Hohmann transfer
or whatever, at some point around conjunction. And I think Wolfe intended
that to be the case.

But obviously it's possible to read things differently - I just find this
explanation satisfying and consistent. One reason: it means that the inhumi
problem on Blue is pretty much under control by the end of RTTW. Their ranks
have been decimated, and there won't be any more coming from Green.
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